Upcoming Events

Cork | History and Heritage

no events match your query!

New Events

Cork

no events posted in last week

Blog Feeds

Anti-Empire

Anti-Empire

offsite link Rheinmetall Plans to Make 700,000 Artill... Thu Apr 25, 2024 04:03 | Anti-Empire

offsite link America’s Shell Production Is Leaping,... Wed Apr 24, 2024 05:29 | Anti-Empire

offsite link Ukraine Keeps Snapping Up Chinese Drones Tue Apr 23, 2024 03:14 | Anti-Empire

offsite link Moscow Is Prosecuting the War on a Pathe... Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:26 | Anti-Empire

offsite link US Military Aid to Kiev Passes After Tru... Sun Apr 21, 2024 05:57 | Anti-Empire

Anti-Empire >>

Human Rights in Ireland
A Blog About Human Rights

offsite link UN human rights chief calls for priority action ahead of climate summit Sat Oct 30, 2021 17:18 | Human Rights

offsite link 5 Year Anniversary Of Kem Ley?s Death Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:34 | Human Rights

offsite link Poor Living Conditions for Migrants in Southern Italy Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:14 | Human Rights

offsite link Right to Water Mon Aug 03, 2020 19:13 | Human Rights

offsite link Human Rights Fri Mar 20, 2020 16:33 | Human Rights

Human Rights in Ireland >>

Lockdown Skeptics

The Daily Sceptic

offsite link News Round-Up Fri Apr 26, 2024 00:42 | Richard Eldred
A summary of the most interesting stories in the past 24 hours that challenge the prevailing orthodoxy about the ?climate emergency?, public health ?crises? and the supposed moral defects of Western civilisation.
The post News Round-Up appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Lockdown?s Impact on Children to Last Well into 2030s, Says LSE Report Thu Apr 25, 2024 20:00 | Will Jones
Children who started school during the pandemic will have worse exam results well into the next decade after losing six crucial months of learning, a new report from the London School of Economics has found.
The post Lockdown’s Impact on Children to Last Well into 2030s, Says LSE Report appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link A.V. Dicey Did Not Foresee the Gender Recognition Act Thu Apr 25, 2024 18:00 | Dr James Alexander
When Dicey summarised the principle of parliamentary sovereignty he wrote: "Parliament can do everything but make a woman a man and a man a woman." Alas, thanks to the European Court of Human Rights, that's no longer true.
The post A.V. Dicey Did Not Foresee the Gender Recognition Act appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link My BBC Complaint About Chris Packham?s Daily Sceptic Slur Thu Apr 25, 2024 15:52 | Toby Young
Last Sunday, Chris Packham made a false and defamatory allegation on the BBC about the team behind the Daily Sceptic, claiming they had "close affiliations to the fossil fuel industry". The BBC then signal-boosted it. ?
The post My BBC Complaint About Chris Packham?s Daily Sceptic Slur appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Another Clue Pointing to an American Origin of the Virus Thu Apr 25, 2024 14:18 | Will Jones
It's increasingly clear the virus leaked from a lab in Wuhan. But could it have been made in the USA? Will Jones suggests the behaviour of the Chinese Government before and after the sequence was published gives us a clue.
The post Another Clue Pointing to an American Origin of the Virus appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

Lockdown Skeptics >>

Voltaire Network
Voltaire, international edition

offsite link Israel's complex relations with Iran, by Thierry Meyssan Wed Apr 24, 2024 05:25 | en

offsite link Iran's hypersonic missiles generate deterrence through terror, says Scott Ritter... Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:37 | en

offsite link When the West confuses Law and Politics Sat Apr 20, 2024 09:09 | en

offsite link The cost of war, by Manlio Dinucci Wed Apr 17, 2024 04:12 | en

offsite link Angela Merkel and François Hollande's crime against peace, by Thierry Meyssan Tue Apr 16, 2024 06:58 | en

Voltaire Network >>

Peter Hart praises book that rubbishes his research

category cork | history and heritage | other press author Tuesday April 03, 2007 09:22author by Jack Lane - Aubane Historical Associationauthor address Aubane Historical Association, Millstreet, Cork, Ireland Report this post to the editors

Peter Hart's review of Borgonovo book obscures criticism of.... Peter Hart

by Jack Lane Irish Political Review April 2007

Peter Hart's latest effort to defend his thesis on the Irish War of Independence took the form of a review of John Borgonovo's book "Spies, informers and the 'Anti-Sinn Fein Society': the intelligence war in Cork City 1920-1921" in History Ireland, March-April 2007.

In case readers need reminding Hart's thesis is that "…. the Dail had no legal standing and was never recognised by any foreign government. Nor did the IRA, as a guerrilla force acting without uniforms and depending on their civilian status for secrecy, meet the requirements of international law. The British government was therefore within its rights to give courts-martial the power to order executions." (Irish Times, 23 June 1998)
Revisionist historian puts foot in it.... again
Revisionist historian puts foot in it.... again

And furthermore, "Nor were members of the IRA protected by the Hague Convention, the basis for the law of war on land. The British government and its forces were not at war in this sense. To be recognised as belligerent soldiers, the guerrillas would have had to be fighting for a responsible established state, wear a recognisable uniform or emblem, carry their arms openly, and not disguise themselves as civilians. None of these conditions applied. It is of course true that international law favours established states, but if any group can claim belligerent status when using political violence, then so can the INLA or the LVF. The Oklahoma bombers would also conceivably have a right to POW status." (Irish Times, 22 July 1998)

1918 Election

Essentially the whole episode was therefore a wanton criminal act with no legitimacy and everything done by the IRA was done by it for all sorts of ulterior motives under the guise of fighting for self-determination. All their actions are to be condemned and denigrated. Hart's logic has a perfect internal consistency.

Of course, he ignores the clear result of the 1918 Election, which established the legal, electoral basis for an Irish independent state. He also ignores the wholesale promulgation at the time of the right of all nations to self-determination.

Imperial Powers

It was the issue of the day. Britain convinced millions that the war it started in August 1914 was for the freedom of small nations and up to 50,000 Irishmen died for it in that war and millions elsewhere. The Russian Revolution of 1917 ended Russia's participation in the war and developed an effective programme that encouraged and supported the colonial world to rise up and establish their national rights against all the Imperial powers. Then the USA joined the war and Woodrow Wilson's '14 Points' justified it essentially on the basis of nations' right to self-determination. The world was thereby saturated with talk and actions insisting on the rights of nations to self-determination. It was the spirit of the age and millions in all continents were set in political motion on the basis of it. Some peoples began to think in nationality terms for the first time in their history.

But for Mr Hart none of this was meant to apply to Ireland although it had a national movement for generations – it was to be the great exception to what was happening all over the world. How strange.

It means that Hart's case flies in the face of obvious realties and therefore he has to rely on all sorts of spurious arguments, distortions and lies to make his case. If one has to defy the reality of a situation how else could one operate? What a strange career choice to have made?

Detailed Study

There could hardly be a greater contrast in John Borgonovo. About 10 years ago he came across some of Hart's initial work and immediately detected flaws in his arguments. On the basis of what he had then researched he could not accept that the war was some sort of tit for tat with the IRA picking on certain groups such a Protestants, ex soldiers and others through sheer prejudice of one sort or another.

He made a detailed study of the intelligence war in Cork city during its most intense phase to see if Hart's arguments made sense. They did not. He said so. He took, head on, the toughest, nastiest subject of all – the execution of civilians for spying and informing. If prejudice and ulterior motives were given an opportunity to express themselves it would be obvious and clear-cut here.

He came to the conclusion on the basis of all the available evidence that spies were executed because they were spies and for no other reason. And that is usually accepted as a good enough reason in the middle of a war. Borgonovo's methodology is to painstakingly gather and present as much of the unvarnished facts as can now be located. No speculation that the facts don't back up and no innuendo and wild assertions and no questions going a begging.

Hart tries to claim that because there were a majority of ex-soldiers executed, it proves his point that groups such as those were picked on.

In the middle of a war the only intelligence that matters is immediate military intelligence. Who is likely to be a good source of this? Surely, it is people with military experience who have fought for one side and who are likely therefore to have an instinct for what is useful intelligence to that side in these circumstances. And who also have the means of discovering such information because of their local knowledge - and who need the reward. Is this a surprise? If there are thousands of them in the war theatre is it picking on them to note such activities? Is it a surprise that some of them, a small minority, turn out to be good at spying, while many, many others supported the Republic. Only a fool would think otherwise and Mr Hart is not a fool.

Florence O'Donoghue

Another of Hart's lines of defence is to question Borgonovo's faith in the trustworthiness of the head of the IRA's intelligence operations in Cork city, Florry O'Donoghue: "but the author is inclined to take Florence O'Donoghue at his word." If he could not be trusted then Borgonovo's thesis could indeed be challenged. But what evidence does Hart have to support his suggestion, or rather his insinuation, about O'Donoghue? None whatever. On the other hand Borgonovo has done a detailed study of O'Donoghue, his character, his ability and has published a fascinating book on him as a person and as an intelligence operator. It makes a most compelling case for O'Donoghue's trustworthiness. So we have to choose with an insidious unproven assertion by Hart and a hard detailed study made by Borgonovo. Take your choice.

He then says that British claims of that the majority of those executed were innocent "presumably is as believable as the IRA claim to the contrary."

Contradicted

Britain had to defend the indefensible in 1919-21 in Ireland. Brian Murphy has established how they sought to do this. The truth was a problem for them and when lies would not suffice verisimilitude (the appearance of truth) took its place, quite deliberately and consciously. By the same token, the facts and the truth were of vital importance to the republicans – it was a vital weapon. They had a vested interest in proving their case to world opinion. How then could one side be considered as truthful or as untruthful as the other? Hart is defying common sense by suggesting this.

But what is believable and unbelievable is an arbitrary and optional matter for Hart. Facts are easily created or dispensed with to make his case. In his 'classic work' on the War in Cork there is the infamous treatment of what he said was "the most trustworthy" source, the official "Record of the Rebellion" from British Army intelligence. Hart quoted half a sentence, which appeared to support his case and excised the second half that flatly contradicted his thesis; he also used a document that was a proven forger. When all else failed, he interviewed a dead man. It is rather rich to see this type of person advising on what is and is not believable. In legal jargon he is a discredited witness and his case would be thrown out of court years ago. He would never be called as an expert witness on the truth.

Hart seeks to damn Borgonovo with faint praise: "good material for class room discussion"; his "aim of advancing the debate is admirable".

He criticises Borgonovo for not dealing with periods and conflicts outside the period of his book. And what is his own assessment of the period in Cork city? Rather than Borgonovo's hard headed, factually based analysis he sees only "mayhem in the streets of Cork at that time" and "What emerges instead is a picture of predators hunting and killing opportunistically right up to the final bell".

Is this really the best our Professor can do? It is a pathetic effort at analysis and an admission that he has lost the plot and cannot make sense of it. He resorts to the best tabloid tradition of lurid conclusions entirely unencumbered by evidence. Is this his idea of "advancing the debate"?

Jack Lane Irish Political Review April 2007

Search Indymedia.ie for further information

The History Ireland Debate - Peter Hart, Brian Murphy, Meda Ryan, and others
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80362

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80362

Ned Young, last survivor of Kilmichael Ambush Nov 28 1920, died Nov 13 1989. Hart claimed to interview ambush participant Nov 19 1989. See Tom Barry: IRA Freedom Fighter by Meda Ryan
Ned Young, last survivor of Kilmichael Ambush Nov 28 1920, died Nov 13 1989. Hart claimed to interview ambush participant Nov 19 1989. See Tom Barry: IRA Freedom Fighter by Meda Ryan

Brian Murphy's study demonstrated Hart's (and Roy Foster's) reliance on British propaganda
Brian Murphy's study demonstrated Hart's (and Roy Foster's) reliance on British propaganda

Hart's Review - History Ireland March April 07
Hart's Review - History Ireland March April 07

PDF Document HIgher Quality PDF of Jack Lane Article 0.24 Mb


 #   Title   Author   Date 
   Click on images to read text     Jack Lane    Tue Apr 03, 2007 09:27 
   PDF of article on Hart's review of Borgonovo book     Jack Lane    Tue Apr 03, 2007 09:32 
   oh dear     observer    Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:58 
   Hart and Irish history     jack lane    Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:00 
   err...     observer    Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:21 
   Is Hart too English in his approach?     Edward Young    Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:32 
   Buy, beg, borrow or (preferably don't) steal this book     Niall Meehan    Tue Apr 03, 2007 16:01 
   err....     Jack Lane    Tue Apr 03, 2007 18:01 
   First place where massacre of Protestants was mentioned?     Ghost of the UWC    Sun May 13, 2007 17:09 
 10   Any nonsense will do...     Jack Lane    Wed May 16, 2007 15:45 
 11   Borgonovo reples to Hart review     Niall Meehan    Thu May 31, 2007 22:42 
 12   Jack Lane     Frank    Fri Jun 01, 2007 21:50 
 13   CCO'B and B&ICO     Cats-Outta-Debag    Fri Jun 29, 2007 22:02 
 14   Is Aubane a political cult?     Cats-Outta-Debag    Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:36 
 15   Further information     Cats-Outta-Debag    Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:54 
 16   Bee in bonnet     Peter    Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:10 
 17   It's relevant     Cats-Outta-Debag    Fri Jul 20, 2007 17:38 
 18   It is out of the bag now all right     Peter    Fri Jul 20, 2007 20:22 
 19   Borgonovo's useful work     Cats-Outta-Debag    Sat Jul 21, 2007 19:35 
 20   To "Cats"     Paul Stokes    Sat Jul 21, 2007 19:59 
 21   I agree     Frank    Sat Jul 21, 2007 22:00 
 22   Coolacrease - The Hidden Interview - an Indymedia EXCLUSIVE! Listen and learn!     Captain White    Tue Dec 04, 2007 18:34 


Number of comments per page
  
 
© 2001-2024 Independent Media Centre Ireland. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by Independent Media Centre Ireland. Disclaimer | Privacy