Socialist Youth festival - final details

by Curious Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:01

Seeing as there is a speaker at the camp from the Socialist Party in England AND Wales, could we have a Genuine explanation as to why the Welsh are not allowed to have a seperate party?

by Seán Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:05

Not a bad website, well done.
Although I disagree with some of the analysis in the article on the current situation within the UUP.

by Michael Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:05

The abuse has started witin 5 minutes of the posting being put up!

Curious why dont you just e-mail the SP in Ebgland and Wales and get your answer(as has been explained here time and time again by SP members) from the horses mouth and stop destroying the neswire with petty postings.

by Curious Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:12

How is it abuse to ask a question? My God! What kind of an internal must the SP have if a question is seen as abuse!

The SP in Ireland have advertised a session of this camp which has a speaker from "the Socialist Party in England and Wales". Therefore it is reasonable to address questions to the organisers.

Personally, I am not surprised at the response or the fact that the CWI will not allow the Welsh to have their own section.

by Agent of Chaos Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:41

The CWI were opposed to the setting up of the Scottish Socialist Party. You dont really think they are going to let the Welsh comrades get out from under Taafes thumb do you?

by UCD Head Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:43

Oisin Kelly is speaking at the camp, he is now paid by UCDSU to work on behalf of the students but so far his work consists of propagandising for the SP. When can we expect him to do some UCDSU work?

by Pundit Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:49

there will be some press along to ask questions of Mrs Joe Higgins as to how she got her Council seat.

by Petrichenko Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:01

Well done folks - just noticed this in your manifesto.

FIGHTING FOR THE SOCIALIST ALTERNATIVE

Glad to see that the spat over the UCD elections hasn't stopped you from working for a decent left wing group, may ye be a CATALYST to the your seniors.

by Awe Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:04

How about a session on Dermot? Purged after 25 years as a fulltimer. No redundancy money, no pension, zilch. Is this how employees will be treated in the glorious Trotskyist society of the future?

by aKa Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:06

He was sacked as a fulltimer 8 years ago and replaced by an 18 year old (it was a turn the CWI were taking so they would have more maaleable fulltimers). No redundancy either, literally put on the side of the road.

by Curiouser Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:15

......CWI going through its own 'Cultural Revolution'?

by Zip Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:20

It's a sad fact, but Socialist Youth needs to wake up to the fact that every time ye put a posting up on indymedia, if even to advertise a summer camp, all ye are going to do is invite abuse from a few sad fuckers trying to get a rise out of ye.

by Astounded! Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:24

It is a strange Worldview which sees questions as abuse. Drawing attention to the mistreatment of employees; now how is that abuse?

Are you saying that it is good employer practice to sack someone after 25 years with no redundancy or pension rights? Is it wrong to criticise this type of behaviour?

by Rosie Thu Jul 17, 2003 13:22

Two points:

(1) The above troller would appear to have quite a severe case of Schizophrenia, all six of his personalities have posted one after the other, saying the same thing, quite rapid transition from one to another, almost impressive, but what I want to know is where does your concern or interest for those you feel have been 'hard done by the SP / CWI' come from, are you an ex member with a gripe, a different party, where you spurned by an individual...?? quite frankly i'm baffled.

(2) Why is SY posting this in the first place, surely at this stage a line of communication is in place with those who are attending the 'Festival'. I think your just giving the malcontent(s) and the attached multiple personalities something to cling onto. Get sense.

by Agent of Chaos Thu Jul 17, 2003 13:35

Now either you think its ok to sack people after 25 years with no pension or redundanct or you dont. It is a matter of concern to everyone if an employer like the SP treats its staff in this matter.

If a capitalist company treated an employee like this then the SP would be howling at them.

As for schizophrenia, it refers to people who have visions, suffer from paranoia etc. They do not have several personalities.

Perhaps some people here, like your good self, use mor than one identity, I dont.

by Rosie Thu Jul 17, 2003 13:40

"Schizophrenia is a severe, chronic, and often disabling brain disease."


(I concede your point)
"While the term schizophrenia literally means, "split mind," it should not be confused with a "split," or multiple, personality."

(but below illustrates that my original diagnosis of you is certainly 'spot on')

"It is more accurately described as a psychosis -- a type of illness that causes severe mental disturbances that disrupt normal thought, speech, and behavior."

by Agent of Chaos Thu Jul 17, 2003 13:56

"a type of illness that causes severe mental disturbances that disrupt normal thought, speech, and behavior."

Dont you think this might better refer to the meglomania of the CWI? Expelling the entire Palistan section. Driving out the South African Section, driving out the majority of the Scottish section.

Not allowing the Welsh to have their own section in case the Scottish situation is replicated.

Falling in membership from 14,000 to 2,000 but carrying on as if they were the sole repository of truth.

Sacking employees without a penny. In John Thrones case not just without redundancy or pension but without health cover. In the US Health Insurance can be a life or death issue. John Throne was ill at the time.

by Taaffey Tuck Thu Jul 17, 2003 14:07

"It is more accurately described as a psychosis --a type of illness that causes severe mental disturbances that disrupt normal thought, speech, and behavior."

by Ivan Caramba - International Bolshevik Current Thu Jul 17, 2003 15:15

Aparantly wanking helps prevent prostate cancer. You Anarchists and pseudo revolutionary liberals should have no worries about that then!

by pat c Thu Jul 17, 2003 15:36

The article is on New Scientist.

Masturbating may protect against prostate cancer


19:00 16 July 03

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.

It will make you go blind. It will make your palms grow hairy. Such myths about masturbation are largely a thing of the past. But the latest research has even better news for young men: frequent self-pleasuring could protect against the most common kind of cancer.


http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993942

by - Thu Jul 17, 2003 16:29

Yes Oisín is employed by UCDSU and he is an active member of the SP, so what?

It is not as though he hid his membership of the party or falsly claimed he would resign his membership like others who contested and won in those elections.

Another thing, are you claiming that if soemone is employed by an organisation that they are not allowed to be active politically. If I worked in a shop or factory would this disqualify me from being politicallly active? Of course not. Oisín is going to Cavan on his own free time NOT on SU time, so it is of no concern to the SU.

by Disgusted Thu Jul 17, 2003 16:44

He is posting SP propaganda on Indymedia on UCDSU time. Hes been paid by UCDSU since 1 July, what has he done since then for UCD students?

by - Thu Jul 17, 2003 16:55

How do you not know it was on a break?

Since June 1st he has been involved in quite alot actually. Many personal cases I believe but politically he got the abolition of free tickets for SU officers and 'hacks' through the SU exec.

Somthing i do not htink would have even been brought up if he was not on the exec.

by UCD Head Thu Jul 17, 2003 16:55

Lets start a campaign for a referendum to recall Oisin Kelly. His first prefferences only amounted to 3 % of the total eligible electorate.Now thats hes working fulltime for the SY whilst drawing a salary from UCDSU we have grounds to raise charges against him.

Remember he is being paid out of our Capitation Fees.

by Appalled Thu Jul 17, 2003 16:57

Even just under his own name, he must be permanently on a break.

by - Thu Jul 17, 2003 17:03

I can guarentee that he is not working fulltime for the SP or SY. Any of the sabbatical officers will vouch for that.

It would be interesting to see exactly who these people wanting to recall Oisín are exactly?

some disaffected 'lefts'??

by Confident Thu Jul 17, 2003 17:06

OK is afraid to face a recall referendum, I thought as much. With 3 % of the electorate, he has no mandate.

by Ray Thu Jul 17, 2003 17:07

If you are a UCD student, and you feel Oisin is not doing his job, raise a complaint there. At least half the posters here are posting from a work computer, judging by the posting times. Are you suggesting that employers should be able to fire people for posting to the internet? Do you support employer monitoring of worker internet use? If Oisin isn't doing his job, then point to cases where he isn't doing his job. Don't criticise him for using the internet during working hours, unless you're happy to see that criticism extend to every other worker in Ireland.

by cfe supporter Thu Jul 17, 2003 17:08

If right wing tries to recall any of the lefts on the SU exec, the left should immediately recall every single of the right wingers on exec. As was pointed out the names should not be to hard to collect.

by hack Thu Jul 17, 2003 17:11

Will Dillon take on the college authorities and the union bureacrats?

If not he should be recalled

by Curious Thu Jul 17, 2003 17:41

What exactly are you criticising Dillon for?

I have no reason to doubt Dillon, his record of participating in Direct Action be it in CFE or the Anti War Movements speaks for itself.

by Curious Thu Jul 17, 2003 17:42

OK on the other hand has a record of opposing DA, eespecially in IAWM. I would be more doubtful of him.

by SU member Thu Jul 17, 2003 18:47

if anyone has any problems with any of the Union Officers then they can raise it through the democratic structures of the SU.

And a point of information: the Turnout in the SU elections last year was not 6%. It was 4,500. which is 25-30%- this was a big increase on previous years largely due to 4 CFE candidates.

by - Fri Jul 18, 2003 02:15

Oisín has a strong record of supporting DA. In CFE he supported, helped organise and participated in countless occupations, blocades etc. Agaisnt the war he participated many direct actions including demos at the Dail on Day X as well as the 'ring around the Dáil'. Currently he is very active in building support for the anti bin tax campaign that will in the next few months be forced by the FF/PD government into holding bin trucks and dumping rubbish. So it is clearly crap that Oisín does not support DA tactics when they are the correct strategy for the movement. What I'm sure 'curious' is alluding to is his stance on DA in Sahnnon on March 1, it has laready been well discussed and everyone knows the arguments. What he and the rest of the SP felt was that tearing down the fence was not the correct strategy at that time.

As for Dillon I think there are some very strong critisisms that could be made of his politics but this is not really the proper forum especially if he is not involved in this debate himself. But what I will say is that to say Dillon is fantastic because he supports DA and completely ignore his reformist politics is absolutly madness and in effect turns DA into an end rather than a strategy.

by Ray Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:06

I see (the alliance thread is further evidence) SP/SY members have stopped identifying themselves as such...

by Agent of Chaos Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:49

This is what Oisin thinks of Indymedia:

Socialist Youth Discussion Board
"



Oisin


Title: Registered

Posts: 29
Joined: June 2003 Posted: July 1 2003, 4:12 #219
Don't bother

Indymedia Ireland is not worth even bothering with. It does not have many genuine people looking for alternative media and news.

It's infested with a small number of Anarcho types that get a sick kick out of having a go at the SP and the SWP.

There's no longer an point in going on as they will just have a go at us for no reason just to stir it up."

So, why do Oisin and the other SPers still post here?

by Durutti Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:04

So when was the right time to take action at Shannon? When was the right time to criticise the Shannon cops? These workers in uniform that the SPs Lord Haugh Haugh loved so much.

by UCD Head Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:11

I am sure that Oisin is taking a half days leave today to travel to the SY camp. This will of course be noted in UCDSU records and will be availible for inspection by all students. Oisin believes in transparency, doesnt he?

by Truth Fri Jul 18, 2003 13:21

No one has ever been expelled from the Irish section of the CWI.
No one has ever been "sacked" by the Irish section of the CWI.
The above mentioned decided themselves for personal reasons to change their level of activity within the CWI.
Those of you who are so concerned about "how they were treated" should asked them personally and I guarantee you that the comrades concerned will be flabbergasted by your accusations.

by The Truth Shall Set You Free Fri Jul 18, 2003 13:57

That Dermot Connolly was happy to be purged from the post of General Secretary? To be cast adrift with no pension rights or redundancy after 25 years as a fulltimer?

That Emmett was equally happy to be sacked and replaced by an 18 year old?

As for happy ex-members of the Irish section, do you think John Throne, Denis Tourish, Finn Geaney etc etc are happy with the SP and CWI?

by . Fri Jul 18, 2003 15:06

Who gives a fuck about denis tourish and finn geany?

by Right On! Fri Jul 18, 2003 15:08

They were only 2 people who each gave a decade and a half to the CWI, yeah, fuck em!

by Magneto Fri Jul 18, 2003 15:21

Some open minded (cue Trotsky ice-pick jokes) are paying attention. Read the remarks about Denis Tourish and Finn Geany above, your comrades care nothing for people who dedicated years of their life to The Party. Thats the only regard you will get if you ever dare to disagree with The Party Line.

Congrats to the satirist who hit back so well at the demeaning of Tourish and Geany.

by Truth Fri Jul 18, 2003 16:04

Dermot Connolly stepped back from his political work for health reasons, there was no purge, ask him!
Emmett decided that it was time for him to do something else there was again no purge - ask him!
Denis Tourish left the CWI without even having a political disagreement - his subsequent rantings about the CWI being a cult where only developed over a decade after his departure.

by Agent of Chaos Fri Jul 18, 2003 16:10

deal with the central point of pension and redundancy rights. Emmett and Dermot will not go on the record (just as you being anonymous wont) by saying they were not happy with their treatment. They would be expelled from the SP if they did.

In personal conversation, both of them will let you know that they are disgruntled with the way they were treated.

As for Denis Tourish, I hope your remarks are drawn to his attention. I am sure he will have an interesting riposte.

by Hebe Fri Jul 18, 2003 17:32

Some may not know who Dennis Tourish is.

Dennis Tourish, Ph.D. is a Reader in Communication and Management at the University of Aberdeen. He has published widely on group influence and cultism, and is the co-author (with Tim Wohlforth) of 'On the Edge: Political Cults Right and Left.' He also researches and teaches interpersonal and organisational communication, and has lectured on cults in a number of UK and Australian Universities. He is a member of the Editorial Advisory Board of Cultic Studies Review.

D.Tourish@abdn.ac.uk

by What lies! Fri Jul 18, 2003 18:55

When have you been talking to either Dermot Connolly or Emmett Farrell, "agent of chaos"? You are so full of shit. As if Dermot or Emmett would waste their breath on the likes of you. They have better things to be doing (ie the class struggle) that trolling on indymedia - I must tell em about this the next time I see them - I don't think they'd appreciate their names being used by a shit stirrer full of fake concern. (Then again they may get a laugh outta it).

by The Real Question Fri Jul 18, 2003 18:59

Why Shouldnt SP (and SWP) fulltimers have pension and redundancy rights?

by Dennis Tourish Sun Jul 20, 2003 16:44

Some of the comments on this site have indeed been drawn to my attention. My response is:

1. I believe that the CWI is a cult, and that those habits it exhibits (eg fear of dissent; demonising of dissenters; expelling of dissenters; purging of factions; concentration of power at the top; excessive believe in the ludicrous notion that it has all of the worlds wisdom in its hands - plus more) have gotten worse rather than better over the years. I have written extensively on this, but interestingly no one from the CWI has ever challenged my analysis. Instead, I am accused of ranting. Very interesting. A considered argument is dismissed as ranting while the substantive points made are ignored - just actually what one would expect from a cult.

2. I left the CWI because I was increasingly appalled by its internal regime, and in particular by the behaviour of Peter Hadden in The North. I have no wish to excessively personalise the issue. Rather, his name is unavoidable because he held such a position of authority nationally in the CWI. However, unfortunately, it was not possible to debate these issues amongst the leadership, who were also not interested in facilitating a discussion among the wider membership. I am certain that many other former leading comrades, including Finn Geaney, have had similar experiences. My own case would not matter a jot - except for the tiny little detail that it has been widely shared, and is always enjoyed by anyone who tries to challenge the intolerable internal regime.

3. No mass organisation capable of changing society can be built on this basis. The SP has a choice. It can have an open regime characterised by debate, respect for difference (and for the efforts of many people who worked hard for it over a long time) OR it can do as it now does ' and opt for monolithic control over a tiny and dwindling band of not so merrie men (and women). In which case, I will continue to regard it as a cult, and happily debate the point any time in any forum that the SP sees fit to organise.

by Sir Peter Hadden Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:51

SO WHAT FINN GEANY, SO WHAT!

by a Mon Jul 21, 2003 18:07

Was that realy dennis tourish????

by Zorro Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:04

Hes back. You shouldnt have made him angry.