ISRAEL & PALESTINE DEBATE - DUBLIN PROTEST

by Daithi Thu May 22, 2003 12:34

Have you lost your mind? Someone from the Irish government is meeting two persons, one representing the Israeli government and one representing the Palestinian authority - how is there ever going to be any sort of peace in the Mid East if there is no talking? It's just like the Paisleyite rabble turning up outside when Gerry Adams started talking to his opponents and to third parties. I mean, I'd rather if the two of them ignored Kitt and the assembled FF hacks and talked direct to each other and to the interested public, but you can't have everything..

by pat c Thu May 22, 2003 12:41

I tend to agree with Daithi on this. What is the purpose of the protest? If FF were just meeting with The Israeli Ambassador it might make some sense.

Please convince me and others as to why we should support this picket.

by Daithi Thu May 22, 2003 12:42

Sshhhh Pat. People will talk.

by Joe Thu May 22, 2003 12:50

Must say I have to wonder why there should be a protest at an event like this?

Now if there was a protest at the Embassey that i could understand.

by Joss Thu May 22, 2003 13:26

Cork Peace Alliance and Comhlamh co-hosted a talk by Ali Halimeh last year. A representative from the Israeli embassy was invited but declined as I recall. Good to see them getting together now.

by sean Thu May 22, 2003 13:52

the socialist alliance's opposition to this is based on anti-semitism. The state of Israel has the right to exist and no amount of pathetic gurning by socialist alliance and other deluded republican types will change this - a two state solution is the way forward but Israel has every right to ensure that its security remains paramount- given the atheistic and godless ideologies of the above contributors Israel has the right to stand firm - if the rest of the Arab world care so much for the Palestinians let them do something about it for a change.

by pat c Thu May 22, 2003 14:41

I see no evidence of Anti-Semitism. All I see is an advertisement for a protest. I dont think this protest is a good idea. More information from the author would help.

by Salah Thu May 22, 2003 15:39

Why don’t people from both viewpoints attend and take part in the debate?

But, I have no problem with the idea of a protest either. Israeli officials should be asked to leave the country never mind being given a platform for lies.

They represent state terror and are paid to deny the genocide being committed in Palestine.

by sean Thu May 22, 2003 15:49

be honest and show some sense - the jews know given the terrible persecution they've suffered when people are lieing through their teeth - socialists and many Irish republicans try to tell us they are not anti -semitic - the jews know better not to trust these godless atheistic people who glorify murder , dictatorships and the denial of freedom. I know these people privately relish hearing about the deaths of innocent Israelis killed by their political associates.the people above need to grow up and stop wasting their time thinking ' oh, look how hard we try to bring justice to the Palestinians'. Rest assured you fools - you will never succeed in forcing the Jewish people into submission

by pat c Thu May 22, 2003 15:56

Given the tone and content of your mail, you are obviously in need of counselling. I hope yopu get all the help you require.

by Avi H. Thu May 22, 2003 16:14

I agree with him. Try and be self-critical for once in your life.

by pat c Thu May 22, 2003 16:18

It is totally irrational to read what Sean did into what was merely an advertisement for a picket.

by Ali H. Thu May 22, 2003 17:40

Great advice Avi, especially from you. We'll all do that, what a great idea, maybe you'd like to join in too?

by sean Thu May 22, 2003 19:32

your perjorative comment in relation to counselling just show what a shallow and limited little man you are- surely someone who has supported a murder campaign in the north for the past thirty years is the real person in need of help

by Cleo Thu May 22, 2003 21:56 www.netureikarta.org

Sean, doesn't know the first thing about Judaism, Israel or the north, his WASP aryan ignorance speaks volumes of shite. Nazionists do not speak for the Jews of Israel nevermind Global Jews. Similarly Her majesty's LVF/DUP doesn't speak for ulster protestants anymore. Sean's views are the backward views of an outdated dinosaur, one of the extinct species Avihun referred to earlier. Thank god for the down to earth common sense of progressive ulster prostestants, ISM jews, Global Jews and the Netureikarta jews. Avihun and aryan outsider 'sean' represent your stereotypical nazionist/brit nazi stance, but luckily brit neo nazis are one of the species in danger of becoming extinct soon, just look what happened to Coco and lickle johnny adair. I always wondered why Aryan golden brit nazi boys like 'sean' supported the state of Israel, then it dawned on me, the idea of herding global jews into a godforsaken desert in the middle of nowhere far away from their gentile aryan lands is what appeals to naziboys.

by BNP sex offender Thu May 22, 2003 22:00

Best place for the Jews. All Jews should be repatriated to Israel as mein fuhrer wished, out of our glorious aryan countries, to stop their filthy contamination of our gentile women.

by Fergal OB Thu May 22, 2003 22:02

Who are the Socialist Alliance? I'm a socialist and want nothing to do with them if they think it makes sense to picket this debate. And who in their right mind could call a representative of the Palestinians a 'Zionist'. Suzanne Patterson - you are some tulip!

by pat c Fri May 23, 2003 10:04

"your perjorative comment in relation to counselling just show what a shallow and limited little man you are-"

No, Sean you read an incredible amount of stuff into the announcement of a picket/ That the organisers were anti-smitic, that they were godless atheists etc etc. This was entirely irrational so my response was not gratuitiously insulting.

" surely someone who has supported a murder campaign in the north for the past thirty years is the real person in need of help "

I didnt support a murder campaign, I am capable of differentiating between the violence of an Imperialist State and the reactive violence of Republicans. I never uncritically supported Republican actions. My criticism of Teeban, Enniskillen, targetting of workers in RUC/Army bases, proxy bombings etc are a matter of record on Indymedia.

It is someone who attempts to reduce the Northern Conflict to such a facile level as you do, is the one who requires help.

by Curious Fri May 23, 2003 11:42

"Free Life, the Journal of the Libertarian Alliance
... The book ends with an unreadable article on butch lesbians by Suzanne Patterson and
Anne-Marie Le Blé, followed by a would-be comic dialogue between a couple ...
freespace.virgin.net/old.whig/fl27gay1.htm "

Could this be the thread starter?

by sean Fri May 23, 2003 12:11

I'm sorry but I can't accept that - you say a distinction must be made between the I.RA and the imperialist state- the reality is that many people in N.Ireland- the majority in fact both there and on the island did not see it this way and did not support the murder of army and police because they were nasty forces upholding imperialism in Ireland . The truth is you supported a gun being put to the back of the heads of such people and murdered- that makes you a murderer and a coward- it makes you no better than people in the army and police who did the same. Try producing your pathetic claptrap when speaking to the loved ones of people murdered by your great anti- imperialist heroes.

by pat c Fri May 23, 2003 13:10

"I'm sorry but I can't accept that - you say a distinction must be made between the I.RA and the imperialist state- "

Its your right to disagree with me, as its mine to disagree with you

"the reality is that many people in N.Ireland- the majority in fact both there"

Naturally, the majority had gained ( even if some of these gains were marginal) from the oppression of the Catholic poulation.

" and on the island did not see it this way and did not support the murder of army and police because they were nasty forces upholding imperialism in Ireland ."

Many people are more aware of the history of this island than you appear to be. I disagreed with many of the actions of the IRA & INLA as did most Irish people. Some went further because of Section 31 and its broader mentality in the media.

" The truth is you supported a gun being put to the back of the heads of such people and murdered"

Name names and cases. I dont think the killing of British Soldiers or RUC was murder.

"- that makes you a murderer and a coward- it makes you no better than people in the army and police who did the same."

this level of argument would get you a D in Junior Cert History and would certainly fail in any logic exam. Going on this type of "logic" no one could ever support any sort of action against imperialism.

"Try producing your pathetic claptrap when speaking to the loved ones of people murdered by your great anti- imperialist heroes."

You really are in need of help. This thread started with an announcement of a picket on a debate. You dragged anti-semitism and godless atheism into it. Now you have moved it on to the War in the North.

Could it be you are lacking a sense of proportion and maybe a few other things as well?

by kokomero Fri May 23, 2003 13:15

I take it from your post Sean (by your omission) that it is perfectly fine for states to hold guns to peoples heads and to use them.

If not then please clarify.

Examples of this would be Brian Nelson, Stakeknife and one of our own regulars, Avi H. all of whom take part in state-sponsored terrorism?

For the record I have a big problem with double standards and where the state operates outside the law and believe individuals are free to defend themselves in this case.

by sean Fri May 23, 2003 17:51

the simple fact is that the vast majority of irish people did not support the IRA and regarded it as a campaign of murder- it had no legitimacy and was never going to succeed in ' forcing a British withdrawal' you say the killing of army and RUC members was not murder- wise up Pat -what else was it ? Do you know anything about war? what is so sad is hearing peole glorify this .Try telling protestants whose son or daughter served in the police or army- in all likelihood a law abiding citizen who had no time for paramilitaries -that they deserved to die.KOko You are right - the state has no right to murder innocent people and the vast majority of people in the army and police did not set out to kill. Pat's friends on the otherhand had a clear goal - setting out to murder people whom they perceived as the enemy - many of their victims I'm sure never hurt or killed anyone.

by kate Fri May 23, 2003 18:29

Seems to me it that those who are sympathatic to the plight of the Palestinians should mobilise and show this to those in power. Picket i don't agree with but considering the influence that American backing of Isreal has had on the situation wouldn't it be nice for us to try to counter that sentiment with a show of solidarity. Power relations in this situation are very much in the hands of the Isreali administration.

by pat c Fri May 23, 2003 18:40

"it had no legitimacy "

And the British prescence in Ireland is legitimate? Imperialist conquest is ok in your book? Its ok then for the Israelis to keep the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

" you say the killing of army and RUC members was not murder- wise up Pat -what else was it ? "

It was the killing of enemy combatants.

"Try telling protestants whose son or daughter served in the police or army- in all likelihood a law abiding citizen who had no time for paramilitaries -that they deserved to die."

They were in militias whose purpose was to keep the taigs down. They were in league with loyalist murder gangs. Indeed they armed them and supplied them with intelligence.

"KOko You are right - the state has no right to murder innocent people and the vast majority of people in the army and police did not set out to kill. "

You fool. The job of the British Army is to kill people. Why do you think they supply them with guns. Take the Private Thain affair. He shot the joyriders. But his entire company held a celebration of it. They even made a full scale painted silhouette of the car.

"Pat's friends on the otherhand had a clear goal - setting out to murder people whom they perceived as the enemy - many of their victims I'm sure never hurt or killed anyone."

Sure Sean, they were in the British Army because they believed in peace. Reminds me of the song: "Sure I only lit the match said the gentle Black and Tan".

by Tom Luby Fri May 23, 2003 18:54

He thinks yer godless atheists does he? Well if he was a true christian he would be praying to save our souls. Yer a crawthumping hypocrite Sean. If there is an afterlife we'll be in Heaven. You will be in Hell, being tormented by Demons along with your RUC and Army mates. I'll piss down on ye.

by dowtcha Fri May 23, 2003 22:35

SHALOM

by sean Sat May 24, 2003 10:48

I hope this to be my final say on this matter as I sense Pat is on the ropes and I'd like to finish him off. The IRA campaign had no legitimacy Pat -WAS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF Irish people in whose name they claimed to be fighting - it set back the prospect of a united Ireland by generations making the Protestant community in the north even more determined to resist any moves towards one.British governance in the the north - I would like to see this end and the people of the island united and running their own affairs - unfortunately your ideology has made this a pretty difficult task.Are you seriously saying that all members of the RUC were passing on information to the loyalist paramilitaries and therefore that made them legitimate targets- your out of touch with present Sinn Fein views there - even they accept that not everyone in the RUC was a bastard.The campaign you supported Pat was murder- sorry but the meaning of combat is to confront your enemy in open warfare- not to skulk in the shadows waiting for your unsuspecting victim. Of course elements in the police and army have done the same and in certain respects therefore that makes what they did worse.I insist that you understand little or nothing about the protestant community in the north - many people who served in the RUC and were murdered by the IRA were I'm sure innocent of any crime and were not socialising with and passing information to loyalist death squads- your views on this are deeply offensive to loved ones of these IRA victims.You are not the incisive and analyical voice you believe yourself to be - your views are trite and lacking in any real intelligence- I guess though Indy is the only place you can get your piffle published. As regards luby's remarks well that's hardly a Christian sentiment is it?

oh pat on a final note try telling republicans in Tar Isteach that they are sad because they require counselling.

by LLF Sat May 24, 2003 13:37

The IRA have to get the prize for the world's most incompetent terrorist organisation. I mean, when I last looked, the British were still there in Ireland, so is it unreasonable to ask what have the IRA actually achieved (in their own terms) over the last thirty years? Looks like...absolutely nothing. The US armed forces chucked Saddam out of Iraq in a couple of weeks, but the IRA has failed to chuck the British out of Ireland in thirty, make that eighty years.

Further, compare the sophistication with which the US army and marines treated the Iraqi army, letting most of them just walk home when they saw they were not a military threat, with that of the IRA that regards women police officers doing traffic duty and military bands as 'combattants'. Puleeeze! The IRA bleats on about death squads: The IRA looks an awful lot like a death squad to me. I don't remember when they ever last used due legal process for anything, still less when they last got elected to pursue their 'war'.

Maybe they're just a bunch of sad, educationally deprived pyschos hiding behind a failed, outdated ideology?

by King Mob Sat May 24, 2003 15:09

You've not meet Pat have you Sean?

The man is like the terminator

"He can't be argued with, he can't be reasoned with, he cannot be stopped"

It's like trying to knock down a wall by head butting it, you may get there eventually but the headache ain't worth the hassle.

by pat c Sat May 24, 2003 18:32

Its Sean who took this thread from a picket on a PLO / Zionist debate to godless atheists and then on to the North. Hes the one who is headbutting walls.

by pat c Sat May 24, 2003 18:49

"I hope this to be my final say on this matter"

So do I.

" as I sense Pat is on the ropes "

Only a fantasist like you would think that. You lost on the Palestine question so you bizarrely moved the thread to the North.

"and I'd like to finish him off. "
In your dreams Shoneen.

"The IRA campaign had no legitimacy Pat "
Wrong dear boy.

"-WAS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF Irish people in whose name they claimed to be fighting -"

Well thats debatable. But you have to twist things. AS I already pointed out I did not support targetting civilians etc.

"it set back the prospect of a united Ireland by generations making the Protestant community in the north even more determined to resist any moves towards one"

What planet do you live on? The Stormont state treated Catholics as second class citizens for its entire existence. You blame the catholics for the oppression that they suffered.

"Are you seriously saying that all members of the RUC were passing on information to the loyalist paramilitaries and therefore that made them legitimate targets-"

A large amount of them did. The vast majority approved of it.

"your out of touch with present Sinn Fein views there - even they accept that not everyone in the RUC was a bastard."

I'm not a member of SF. I do accept that there were a few good apples in the rotten barrel.

"The campaign you supported Pat was murder- sorry but the meaning of combat is to confront your enemy in open warfare- not to skulk in the shadows waiting for your unsuspecting victim. "

So what abou the SAS ambushes? How many IRA were shot face to face by the RUC? Ever hear of Stalkers original enquiry into RUC shhot to Kill and the follow on?

Loughall? It was the Brits and RUC skulking there. Gibraltar? The SAS did the skulking.

Shoneen, you are the one who lacks intelligence. You keep repeating the same points as if you can bludgeon me into accepting your sophomore views.
Have you ever heard of a non-sequitar? Thats what you did by reading bizarre motives into the mind of the poster who started this thread.

Moving it to the North was another non-sequitar.

"I guess though Indy is the only place you can get your piffle published."

No, plenty of other outlets.

"As regards luby's remarks well that's hardly a Christian sentiment is it?"

He didnt claim to be from what I read. But I hope hes right. I look forward to showering you.

"oh pat on a final note try telling republicans in Tar Isteach that they are sad because they require counselling."

I certainly wouldnt. I respect them. I pity you.

by pat c Sat May 24, 2003 19:18

Some news about what your peace loving loyalist friends are up to.
********************
Nationalists in north Belfast have been warned to be extra vigilant after
an increase in loyalist surveillance activities in the area.

The chilling warning comes after both Sinn Fein and IRSP members received a
spate of death threats from the UDA. Every Sinn Féin councillor in the
Oldpark area has received at least two death threats over the past 12
months while four north Belfast members of the IRSP have also been given
warning their lives are in danger.

The heightening of the latest loyalist threats follows a statement from the
UDA warning that if leading North Belfast UDA man Andre Shoukri was
targeted the terror gang would retaliate by murdering ten Catholics.

The IRSP has called on all residents of north Belfast, and particularly
those in the Ardoyne area, to be extra vigilant after a car carrying three
well-known loyalist paramilitaries was seen circling nationalist
communities around the Oldpark Road.

"Over the past two weeks concerned residents have pointed out the same car
driving around the Brompton Park, Manor Street, and Summer Street area,"
said an IRSP spokesperson.

"It is the same people in the same car driving along the same route time
and time again. It is an extremely worrying development.

"We would call on all our members and residents living in these areas to be
extra vigilant. It seems that an attack on nationalists is imminent."

Sinn Féin Oldpark Councillor Margaret McClenaghan echoed the call for
vigilance while calling on unionist politicans and representatives to
properly address the threats.

"Clearly this information indicates that loyalist paramilitary groups are
active in the Ardoyne area," she said.

"I myself have received two death threats over the past year from loyalist
paramilitaries and I am urging people to be extra vigilant.

"However I also want to know what the PUP and UPRG have to say about these
threats. And again, what are they going to do to instill calm in this area
over the coming summer months?"

A spokesperson for the PSNI said they would not discuss the personal
security of individuals, adding; "If we were to receive information that
someone needs to review their personal security we would take steps to
inform them. We never ever ignore anything that would harm someone or put
them at risk."

by Tom Luby Sat May 24, 2003 19:36

Ye love the forces of the state, might is right in yer wee mind. Does it never enter yer noggin that them loved RUC and UDR were there to uphold the capitalist state and keep working class prods down too. Never see them breaking a strike?

But there main job was to keep the taigs down just like the State Troopers in Alabama kept the Blacks down.

by Curious Sat May 24, 2003 19:50

Not an allegation that should be made lightly! But who is Sean? Could it be the Famous Sean, friend of Ruth deadly Edwards who was the Garda mole in the IRA? The same man who while being in the IRA murdered a man who was accused of being an informer. This murder was committed with the knowledge of the Gardai so that Sean could, in best stkeknife fashion cover his own ass.

Now wouldnt that be odd if it turned out to be the sane Sean?

by Curious - AntiChrists R Us Mon May 26, 2003 10:30

'Now wouldnt that be odd if it turned out to be the sane Sean?'

That was meant to be 'same Sean'. The above Sean does not appear to be particularly compos mentas.

by Suzanne Patterson - Socialist Alliance Thu May 29, 2003 15:57 spatterson at hotmail dot com

We need action not words - Join us if you care for peace in the Middle East. Anyone ever been a peace activist? Do you even know what it's like? Or are you all intent on just talkin' and gett'n high on weed???????

I am not surprised, this site is meant to further our cause not discuss - we are meant to be radicle not reductionary!I'n no gay butch bitch, I'm proud of my life but have no hangups about gay people.

The protest has been advertised, the time for the Jews to talk is over - we need action. Join the fight....

by S Patterson Thu May 29, 2003 16:12 0035387 8391250

This is worrying - how can Reese speak on Peace - he was slatted in his local press back home for raising money for a Democrat get elected to the Senate, what a joker.