Suicide Bomber on Bus in Israel Leaves 15 Dead

by Seanin Thu Mar 06, 2003 08:47

These events are horrific. They should be condemned by all sane human beings. But, the Israel situation is enough to drive any observer crazy. I tend to rely on the BBC for news and from what I can see, the Israeli state is brutal in it's dealing with Palestinians.
Evil begets evil, and there is absolutely no justification for violence in sorting out the problems in Israel.

by Mark Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:43

If these bombing were either taking place in Dublin, Cork or Galway and killing Irish people as they carried out their normal daily lives, what would your reaction be??
Would you want the Defence Forces and the Police to bring those responsible to Justice or would you leave them all off?? I think you will want justice at any cost.

by pat c Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:06

100 people have been killed by Israeli Terror Forces in the Gaza Strip over the past month. Its hardly surprising that Palestinians should strike back against their oppressors. Just as the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto rose against the Nazis.

by kokomero Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:10

If you take away peoples land, ethnically cleanse and confine them to concentration camps, bomb and maim them, treat them as second class citizens, torture them and assinate your opponents, deprive them of their right to self-government and refuse any sort of political dialogue what do you expect to happen?

Having left them no hope and political outlet do you really expect them to give up or roll over and die or leave their homeland behind to live as refugees?

Try having a look at the environment and regieme these people are living in which is created by the Israeli state and I think you'll get a few clues as to why it is happening and how the problem can be solved.

In the meantime as long as the Israelis continue oppression against the Palestinians they can expect more of the same.

It took the English over 800 years to realise they couldn't solve this kind of problem militarily. Bad and all as the British army were in the north they never confined people to ghettos under permanent curfew or subjected them to attacks by fighter aircraft and tanks as the Israelis do on a daily basis.

The Israelis should read their history books and learn how to compromise and come back when they've solved the problems of their own making!

In the meantime they should be excluded from all preferential trade/political agreements with the EU and treated in the same way as Serbia was when they were engaging in the same behaviour in Kosovo.

by TPT Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:25

I'd imagine if the IRA had used suicide bombers to blow up a bus full of students and children,the british would have introduced such measures as tanks and fighter planes and why wouldn't they.There is no justification whatsoever for random attacks on civillians on either side.If Hamas were to concentrate their efforts on military or financial Israeli targets there could be no complaints.But to hear people trying to excuse the deaths of children for any cause is ridiculous.

by MG Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:27

...with Kokomero and Pat C, but targeting and slaughtering innocent civilians is just as wrong when the Palestinians do it as it is when the Israelis do.

That said, Israel is the powerful side in this war and, as such, it has the power to stop the war. As the deaths of 100 Palestinians in the past month demonstrates, when Hamas and Islamic Jihad cease suicide attacks inside Israel, the only response the Israelis have is to esclate the occupation and demolition and killing that led to the Intifada in the first place.

by Sean Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:43

Israelis kill 11 Palestinians in Gaza operation -

Sourcer: Ireland.com Breking News

06:10 A missile fired from an Israeli helicopter killed at least 11 Palestinians today while they watched firefighters put out a fire in the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza.

More than 100 people were wounded.

Suppose its ok though because they were all Terrorists (Israeli-speak for Palestinian).

by TPT Thu Mar 06, 2003 13:06

Why hasn't this been censored?Indymedia usually take off anything that portrays Palestinians in a bad light.

by AL Thu Mar 06, 2003 13:15

for either side to kill innocents. but when private property comes into the equation powers will extert extreme force and manipulation in order to get it, from land to intellectual property.

TPT,indymedia has never come across, to me at least, as a site only in support of one side. it is the people who post that polarise positions. it is an open discussion area that many other media outlets could learn from.

by kokomero Thu Mar 06, 2003 13:23

As TPT and MG seem to have missed the point, at no point in my posting did I express any opinion on the legitimacy of targetting civilians or otherwise. Desperate people do desperate things and I am in no position to understand what drives people to this type of action.

My point is that the Israelis have created this situation and are the only people who can resolve it. As for targeting the military the Palestinians already do this and the reprisals by the IDF in the past few days were partly in response to the killing of 4 IDF soldiers.

I do not believe that they have the means to stage attacks on commercial targets as this would require an intelligence gathering presence in Israel proper which they do not have and could not possibly maintain given the capabilities of the Israeli security apparatus.

People (Mossad?) regularly call for censorship on this site of any opinion on Israel which does not concur with their own, much in the same way as the Israeli government would rather we all looked the other way while they slaughter the Palestinians.

Mark my words they will step up their slaughter and oppression under the cover of the attack on Iraq.

by MG Thu Mar 06, 2003 13:37

...I hadn't seen your comment when I posted mine (look at the times), so I wasn't responding to it. Also, if you read what I wrote, you'll see that I condemn the Palestinian attack unconditionally, but agree that it was sparked by the Israeli refusal to pull back from the brink and establish peace talks.

PS: The bit about Israel using Iraq as cover for further oppression - I couldn't agree more. It's already started, as the incident with the tank shells this morning proves. According to PA, the shells were fired at a crowd of onlookers who came out of their houses to assess the damage following an Israeli demolition raid in Jabalya camp. This is a war crime and will probably be met with silence by the greedy low-lifes in the Bush administration.

by anon Thu Mar 06, 2003 14:16

TPT, in case you didn't realise, the IRA did target civilians, or does Enniskillen or Teebane or Birmingham not count? In fact, the only difference between the IRA and Hamas is that the suicide bombers kill themselves as well as everyone else.

Do you really think that the IDF launching rocket attacks on Palestinians is going to to anything to prevent terrorism? Look at what a boost the Provos got after Bloody Sunday

by TPT Thu Mar 06, 2003 15:20

The Ira on the whole have never delibarately targetted civillians,hence 1 hour warnings.The bomb in Enniskillen was detonated prematurely by Army scanning devices in the area.The pubs in Birmingham were targetted because they were used by British Army members.I would call this a whole lot different to blowing up a bus full of kids with no warning on purpose.The IRA's most succesful attacks and the ones that drew least public criticism were the ones on British financial interest ie.Canary Wharf,hence the swing towards this sort of attack in the 90s and hence the current peacetalks in the North.

by Ray Thu Mar 06, 2003 16:21

Between blowing up a pub in Birmingham, that may be used by off-duty members of the British Army, and blowing up a bus in Haifa, that may be used by off-duty IDF members?

by Pat c Thu Mar 06, 2003 16:30

The Birmingham bombings were wrong as was the Teeban bomb. I'm not even sure that the Birmingham Pubs were used by off duty soldiers, it was a fuck up.

At Teeban 8 protestant workers were blown up because they were working on an army base. This action could only have been seen as sectarian murder by thr Protestant community.

I dont support suicide bombings in Israel, I was pointing out why they occurred.

by TPT Thu Mar 06, 2003 17:13

I wasn't condoning the Teeban or Birmingham bombings.These attacks caused revulsion to the Republican cause and thus served no purpose whatsoever,much the same as random acts against Israeli civillian targets.The bombings and bombscares of 90s IRA brought huge financial cost to the Brit.Gov.Pictures of destroyed buildings do not rouse half as much emotion as a picture of a dead child{ or adult for that matter} and never meet as much criticism either.

by Ray Thu Mar 06, 2003 17:23

And, beyond the rights and wrong of the situations, I was wondering about these sentences -
"The pubs in Birmingham were targetted because they were used by British Army members.I would call this a whole lot different to blowing up a bus full of kids with no warning on purpose"

I don't see the difference. Both actions have the same moral and political standing, as far as I'm concerned, so the comparison between the IDF and British Army reactions is justified.
(and this is also separate from the question about which actions were more effective)

by Avi Harari Thu Mar 06, 2003 18:02

What is this thread: Pyschopaths Anonymous?

by Ray Thu Mar 06, 2003 18:13

Bye!

by James McKenna Thu Mar 06, 2003 19:26

Why doesn't Israel get to hell out of the Palestinian lands and stop shooting, rocketing and bulldozing them to death in their homes?

Oh, you want it all coz the bible tells you so? I see . Well I guess you will be seeing a lot more of this sort of thing then if you are going to act brutally, illegally, and imorally.

Yod He Vau He my arse

by king Mob Thu Mar 06, 2003 19:39

With the death told running at 6 to 1 thats six Palestinans to every Israeli, with a over a hundred Palestinan children dying to 3 Israelis its becoming increasingly difficult for the Israelis to Protray themselves as the wronged Party.

And T whatever youll find that indymedia usually delete all articles crossposted across several IMC, its not due to any pro palestian policy

King Mob

no substitutes

by Drbinoche Thu Mar 06, 2003 22:38

OK the bombing in Israel is nothing short of premditated murder. The palestinians seem to believe that just becasue they are being victimised, they therefore have the right to kill innocent children and students. The attack by Israel likewise was premeditated murder, but what most don't realise was that the rocket only killed 4 out of the total 11-12 killed. The initial reason of the fire and the reason why a crowd had formed was because the palestinians had accidently detonated a bomb they were working on. I will admit that does not give the Israelis justification to drop a tank shell or rocket into a crowd of civilians, but surely the palestinians should be honest and say that it was THEIR bomb which caused the majority of the deaths.

Also I would imagine that many of you have read Stupid White Men by Michael Moore. The chapter in that where he tells the Palestinians to give passive resistance and no violence what so ever would work faster than anything else right now. If they told the news teams in advance that they were going to be at such a checkpoint and they were going to block the path of the Israelis or something like that, then there is no way they could not be listened to.

Finally, the IRA were the biggest bunch of scumbags on this Island. Their bombs gave very little warning, or none at all. What about Omagh when they told people it was in the wrong place The bomb goes off and 29 people are killed. Freedom fighters, yeah right. None of the IRAs bombs have EVER been justified. They are murderers each and every one of em. And I should tell you now that one of my family members is a member of the IRA and serving Life in Portlaoise.

I find it Ironic or at the least strange that most of the anti-war protesters here, are all for Palestinians, the IRA or anyone who is resisting a major government for either true or false gain. Kinda against the whole peaceful protest/anti-war vibe isn't it!

by James McKenna Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:35

THe Omagh bomb was the work of the Real IRA , who have now disbanded. Another bunch of Direct Actioners who would not be told they would only provide progananda to the British and Irish establishments with half-arsed revolution.

The Police Ombudsman in the North has asked the Gardai to explain reports from other Gardai that they had advance warning of the Omagh bomb including the make and number of the car and the target town and time. The informer who robbed and fitted the car from Dublin gave the details to his Garda handler but the warning never went from Garda Headquarters to the RUC (now PISSINI). This is still a subject of the Morris Tribunal.

Also the warning given was 40mins before the detonation and did clearly said that the car was parked within "300 yards of the Courthouse". Strangely enough that is the place the RUC dicided to place the people!

Once the British and Irish Governments planned and carried out the Dublin/Monaghan bombs to get the Offences Against the State Law passed. Then there was the Omagh bomb to have another raft of "draconia laws" passed. Pity they didn't know 7/11 was planned and they might have been saved the trouble (and lives)as this has now become the excuse for turning the world into a fascist state.

by Seanin Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:11

I've alwas been puzzled by them. If they're the Real IRA, were the other lot imaginary?

by MG Fri Mar 07, 2003 14:43

In his book Stupid White Men, Michael Moore proved that he hasn't a clue about anything that happens outside of the United States. The chapter on Israel, which also includes a section about the North, if memory serves me correct, was inane. I would have expected a more intelligence piece from a primary school pupil in this country. Moore proved that he has no understanding of the history and the issues underpinning both the Israeli and the Irish situations.

Also, could you please provide a source for your claim that a Palestinian bomb killed all but four of the victims in Jabalya.

by Pat D Fri Mar 07, 2003 17:58

Anywone who refuses to condemn the actions of the Palestinians suicide bombers is a sick f*ck. Most of the dead were teenagers.

Note also: Pat C once actually stated that neither the IRA or FARC were terrorist organisations, so I would disregard everything he says.

by TPT Sat Mar 08, 2003 13:36

Fuck off you clueless lying,bullshitting,ignorant cunt.There are no PIRA prisoners in Portlaois.Lying cunt.Fuck off and talk about something you know something about.