Hidden agenda mars Fire Brigade support march

by Indymedia hater Tue Dec 17, 2002 17:04

Here is a prime example of the kind of positngs that are wrecking indymedia. Some guy from "social democracy" (the tiny irish section of the usfi) attacks members of SWP and SP. I dont mind if he gives a report on the march and then wants to contribute a comment and debate afterwards. But this guy only put up the positng to attack SWP and SP, not to report the FBU march.

I have a question for the Social Democracy. What are the USFI leadership doing about your pathetic membership? after all this you only have 3 or 4 members max. And is it true that your are still persuing entryist tactics in the Welsh Labour Party?

by Pat C Tue Dec 17, 2002 17:22

It reported on the march, gave the size etc. John then analysed the march, its size & the political background from his perspective.

Again we have the perenniel indy problem; if you disagree with some people, they take it as an attack.

(They of course are allowed to abuse you in any way they wish. BUT DONT YOU DARE SAY ANYTHING NASTY ABOUT THEM. Especially if its the truth.)

by Andrew Tue Dec 17, 2002 17:28

This is the first detailed report we have seen of the FBU march and the reasons behind its route. It indeed has an obvious agenda of its own - but so what. That agenda is transparent enough and readers can choose to either accept it or reject it. After reading the report I feel I know a little bit more about the march.

What is 'wrecking indymedia*' is the sectarian venom of the self-important trot parties having a hissy fit everytime a report says more then 'another great success'. Activist reporting will often mean critical reporting, you need to learn to deal with this. If something is inaccurate then use the 'comments' to point this out but please spare us these tantrums everytime some news story carries an arkward angle with it.

* - actually I think indymedia is mostly doing OK which is probably why the various anonymous 'outraged' types are making the effort of coming to it to post these sort of comments.

by IMC addict Tue Dec 17, 2002 17:33

Indymedia is doing great. If you don't like it, ignore it.

by Terry Tue Dec 17, 2002 18:42

I also think Indymedia is doing fine.

You have got to remember, while the corporate media in terms
of layout etc looks alright, it is full of bias and much of it
is hidden as are it's agendas.

At least with the bias here, it is out in the open and anyone
through the comments can pick up on it.

Since regularly visiting the IndyMedias, I now find it hard to
take the crap in both the (corporate media) newspapers and
TV & radio, -especially the fact that when you hear blatant lies
and distortions, there is no recourse to correct it.

by AL Tue Dec 17, 2002 19:23

And another who thinks its got more value than mainstream media. Ok, there are a few faults but people are quick to offer posibilities when these faults are brought up (refer to several posts over the past few weeks for instance). if you are such an indymedia hater then why waste your time on indymedia? it seems like you're going through some psychological conflicts there...

by DAVY CARLIN - WEST BELFAST SWP Tue Dec 17, 2002 20:27 carlindavid at hotmail dot com belfast 02890434689

As my name was refered to I feel I should at least reply to the posting.
john firstly refers to the location of the march as an isolated location in West Belfast. Firstly the march was agreed by a community activist on the Shankill Rd and the West Belfast Firefighters support group in conjuntion with the Belfast Trades Council and the FBU to march this route.

As john has not attended any support group meetings just to let him know that the cental FBU support group split up into various groups to take indepentant initiatives north, south, east west etc. It is therefore not strange that the west belfast group organised a march in west belfast to the west belfast firestation.

His second point of it being organised by an largley anonymous community group front shows just how detached john really is from it all.

Apart from the 'group' being supported by the above it has appeared regulary in the local press and its previous initiatives included a collection in west belfast accompanied by over a dozen rank and file firefighters in full uniform from the local station { and yes with a big red fire engine outside}
local rank and file trade unionists from other unions, well known and respected local non party alaigned community and trade union activistst as well as others. The 'group' collected almost one thousand pounds in less than two hours and recieved massive vocal support.

If john had of missed this maybe he might have seen similiar actions by working class protestants on the Shankill and other cross comunity collections done recently.

As who attended I know personnally of several protestant working class community activists who attended along with many rank and file trade unionsist from nipsa - unison etc from around belfast. A full report of this can be found in the next issue of the blanket.

He then talks of a secret meeting with loyalists.I presume he is talking about the forum that initially brought together around thirty of the leading left republican, socialists and left wing community activists along with well respected and known trade union and working class activist and parties from around belfast? Is this the same secret meeting that was reported, or indeed the same meeting john was asked if he wanted to attend?

John calls the belfast SWP economist. hmmm?
I will let the BELFAST SWP comrades know who, with others have got their skulls smashed on the galvaghy, ormeau and springfield roads know this. Or those who helped initiate the recent belfast anti war march or those in unions who have activley built and supported anti secterian rallies or those who showed support recently to the short strand etc etc etc

John points that no one spoke out when jim barbour or bunting was speaking. Two points here.
firstly if john could have pulled him self away from running up and down the march in a frenzy taking bucket loads of pictures he may have had time like SWP comrades to engage with rank and file firefighters or even take the lead and raise his points himself. For myself and belfast swp comrades we are raising the arguments but we do it while providing and marching in soildarity with their cause rather than from a distance.

If john wants to raise points with scores of rank and file firefighters or their leadership including andy gilchrist come along tonight to the solidarity function for them arranged by those sinister hidden 'groups' I am sure they won't bite if you talk to them.

by Brian Cahill Tue Dec 17, 2002 21:17

I don't think that Irish Indymedia is doing all that badly. The first comparison which should be made isn't with an ideal version of an indymedia which consists entirely of "radical, passionate tellings of the truth" but with the other actually existing IMCs.

Irish Indymedia is clearly much better than most Indymedia sites. If you don't believe me go have a look through a random selection of them.

That said, we should be looking at ways to make this site better and one of its greatest flaws is the constant (mostly anonymous) attacks on left wing groups. Those attacks are nearly always followed by an indignant response from some member or other of whichever group is being attacked and so on and so on. (and if by some fluke somebody refrains from getting dragged in, the comments continue with taunts of "why won't group x answer allegation y?")

Now I'm interested in the various left wing groups, their differences and their similarities, but I am also well aware that many more people find this stuff dull. And almost everybody finds it dull when it is repeated at great length following every third or fourth article on a website which isn't primarily intended for this stuff.

Before somebody jumps on me, the problem isn't that there are political arguments on indymedia or even that unbelievable quantities of far left gossip are peddled, but that the bickering can sometimes drown out the relatively small number of actual news articles which people post. And the answer to that is twofold: participants should try to restrain themselves from endlessly repeating the same squabbles but more importanly we need everybody to post more reports and more news.

The original article which started this thread wasn't a particularly malevolent example of the problems facing the Irish IMC. It did at least put a thin veil of "news" on its real purpose, which was to enable Socialist Democracy to have a go at two of the larger left outfits. I can understand why a few people felt the urge to have a go right back.

After all, Socialist Democracy are a group so small that they could comfortably hold their annual conference in a medium sized family car and still have room for sandwiches yet they revel in declaring themselves "the Irish section of the Fourth International". They spent the Troubles following the IRA around and cheering, while politely asking if maybe the Provos wouldn't mind making a few left noises occasionally if that wouldn't be too much trouble. Since the "Republican Movement" decided to get down to the real business of administering capitalist austerity, Socialist Democracy have found themselves at a bit of a loose end. They briefly tried hanging onto the SWP's coat tails instead and since that didn't work they have tried to reinvent themselves as a kind of poor man's Spartacist League, spending their time attacking bigger left wing groups. At present their particular line of attack is to describe anybody who isn't sufficiently anti-Protestant as "economist". These people are ridiculous and few are likely to tolerate sneers from them for very long. (You see how easy it is to get sucked into the squabbling?)

by Barry W Wed Dec 18, 2002 01:57

That a number of Catholic and Protestant workers marched together in support of the firefighters seems to me as a Marxist a good thing.

Fair play to Davy and the others for organising it. John complains it was too small.

John argues that those who made it happen are "economists" -- that the SWP are terrible people for doing this.

But if we have to wait for John and the the other politiical sectarians and bellyachers to take the initiative we can forget it.

Good on you Davy and your comrades!!!!