IRISH ANTI WAR MOVEMENT BULLETIN

by SWP watcher Wed Dec 11, 2002 00:29

It's unsafe for a demo of over 1000 to go down Grafton street on a Saturday in december! SWP why dont you just go on the march and stop acting the maggot!

by Real News Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:09

400+ march in Shannon December 8th.
The day after the Dublin and Belfast marches a protest also took place in Shannon organised by the grass-roots gathering and sabotaged by the SWP/IAWM. The protest was very lively and also receieved good media coverage. Kevin Wingfield, SWP Finglas, said 'The IAWM is the ONLY anti-war movement in Ireland. I hate anarchists'.

by Non Swimmer Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:45

Come off it lads, apart from SWP paper sellers (like cockroaches, difficult to get rid of) there was no visible SWP / IAWM presence at Shannon last Sunday.

by Ruairi Wed Dec 11, 2002 13:03

I've played it myself on occasion but this seems to be getting out of hand.

A good friend of mine marched to the U.S. embassy on Saturday and told me he reckoned on 100 people or so.

Now, being a solicitor and not altogether an experienced protester, he might not be as good at judging numbers but how can two separate accounts of the embassy event say 100 people and 1000 people? a huge gap!

It seems that many of us, in these times of despair, are guilty of petty exagerations and claims of victory that are simply in wonderland.

While it's important to not revel in doom and gloom, I feel we should be very cautious about the quality of information distribution - this relates to the integrity of the campaigns, issues and causes we all work on. It is particularly pertinent in good journalism.

by Ray Wed Dec 11, 2002 13:09

I believe there were a lot more people at the Central Bank - some didn't join the march, and many didn't walk the entire route. I've heard similar estimates of the crowd at the embassy, but there were probably close to 1000 involved at some stage.

by Chekov Wed Dec 11, 2002 13:45

I was on both the march on Saturday and the Shannon protest and consider myself to be okay at gauging crowd sizes. My estimates are that there were about 1,000 people on the march during the brief dame street section, which quickly fell away as the march went down Nassau st and out of town, leaving perhaps 250 left by the end at the embassy. On Sunday I'd say that the high-point was when the march reached the archway and met up with the crowd there, I'd put the numbers at about 350 at that stage. This probably fell off to 250 by the time (2.5 hours later) of the face-off at the fence.

by jonny one Wed Dec 11, 2002 14:48

Why do u behave the way you do?The people want unite against the war,why are you against this? thank our lucky stars we have clear thinking people like the GrassRoots Network to lead theway for the anti war movement.

by jonny one Wed Dec 11, 2002 14:48

Why do u behave the way you do?The people want unite against the war,why are you against this? thank our lucky stars we have clear thinking people like the GrassRoots Network to lead theway for the anti war movement.

by Nicholas Wed Dec 11, 2002 16:18 Cork

As somebody who was on both actions on Sat and Sunday, can I just say that the IAWM did make an effort on Saturday and we should be grateful to them. Unfortunately the weather kept people away. The speakers did not include any direct representatives of political parties though they did include people from groups such as Youth Against War. The Grassroots action on Sunday was announced, though it's a bit funny that they weren't invited to have a speaker.

Yes things can be improved, but they are also improving, and credit should be given where credit is due.

by You Call That A Paper??? Wed Dec 11, 2002 21:12

The IAWM didn't have any speakers from political parties at the demo on saturday. They did announce the demo in Shannon on Sunday. GG people why do you keep complaining about not getting a speaker? Would have been about a 1000 definitely at some stage of march but numbers did drop significantly by the US embassy. It was a long walk in the rain. Sectarianism breeds sectarianism...till next time

by Limerick Lady Wed Dec 11, 2002 23:30

I attended the GG called demo in Shannon. It was great to see 400 people coming together in an inclusive demo where diverse views were respected: the right to fluffy street theatre, the right of everyone to speak, the right of everyone to sing, the right groups to do autonomous NVDA. Space for all!

Now compare that to a marshalled walk where only the committee have any input to the organising, or to who speaks or to the route and where the thing formost in the minds of the organisers is how many copies of the Socialist Worker Paper they will sell and how many "newbies" they will temporarily dupe into joining the SWP and thus ensuring that they will become totally dissilusioned with activism.

"No one is free until we are all free!"

by Ray Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:01

- The IAWM didn't have any speakers from political parties at the demo on saturday

Apart from Richie Boyd Barrett, from the SWP, right?
Of course, if he's okay because he was wearing an IAWM hat, and not an SWP hat, why not let someone speak from Grassroots against the War?
Because you don't them as allies, but as competition, that's why.

by Onlooker Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:48

It would be unusual if the Chair of the Irish Anti War Movement (Richard Boyd Barrett) did not speak at a major event organised by that body.

At the Liberty Hall meeting organised by Grassroots Gathering a week or so ago. How many were present? Was an invitation offered to an IAWM speaker? I don't think so.

So cut the sectarian bickering and fight Bush.

by john Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:15

"Kevin Wingfield, SWP Finglas"
Kevin is from Ballymun

by Ray Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:51

- It would be unusual if the Chair of the Irish Anti War Movement (Richard Boyd Barrett) did not speak at a major event organised by that body

It would, I agree. I was just responding to the person who said that there were no speakers from political parties. Grassroots Gathering isn't a political party either, you know, but oddly enough they were refused an opportunity to speak at the IAWM march.

- At the Liberty Hall meeting organised by Grassroots Gathering a week or so ago. How many were present? Was an invitation offered to an IAWM speaker?

Are you seriously comparing that meeting to a demonstration? Did the IAWM ask to have a speaker there?

So cut the sectarian bickering and fight Bush, by offering real support to all anti-war campaigns, not just the ones dominated by the SWP.

by kitty-kat Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:36

Onlooker, IAWM were approached by e mail & telephone and asked to co-ordinate with Grassroots. all attempts to make contact were ignored. one of the blokes who was integral in the organising of the Shannon protest repeatedly emailed with no reply, had someone call on his behalf (as, from experience he knew SWP/IAWM wouldn't speak to him because he's a dreaded ANARCHIST!). he suggested going as a representative, not presuming to be on any committee, just speak to people involved in IAWM and inform them of what we were at and invite/offer assistance. this offer/request was declined.
Those of us organising GG shannon protest ACTIVELY promoted the Dublin protest.
"Was an invitation offered to an IAWM speaker? I don't think so." as a matter of fact it was as far as i am aware, though not by me personally so i'm not exactly sure as to whom.

and before you say anything i didn't name the bloke above because i don't presume to publicise on another's behalf.

by Not Kitty Kat Thu Dec 12, 2002 13:51

GG made sure no co-ordination was arranged BEFORE the GG organised its protest for the day following the previously arranged IAWM demo.

Previous posts by those involved in GG here report how about a week before the protest GG people communicated with IAWM with a list of demands, some of which were not accepted. So you were not ignored. And your claim that you were is a lie. You may not have got the answers you wanted but that's thing altogether.

GG and its anarchist dominated main movers boycotted the IAWM conference earlier in the year and refused to affiliate to this broad-based body.

Excuse: "It's dominated by SWP"

Doesn't stop Des Geraghty, Socialist Party, Green Party, a host of Independents etc, etc and a number of local groups rowing in. Everybody knows the SWP have anti-war activity as their No 1 so you would expect to see them in large numbers at these events, sticking up the posters etc.

In INdymedia the anarchist leaders of the GG have kept up a barrage of slanders on the IAWM. Then a week before their clashing demo they propose "co-operation".

Get real!

by Ray Thu Dec 12, 2002 14:14

All of this crap has been dealt with already, at the link below (and half a dozen other similar discussions on indymedia in the last few weeks)

They all boil down to the same thing. The IAWM, controlled by the SWP, is pissed off because people set up another anti-war campaign. Instead of seeing this as an opportunity for co-operation, they see it as competition - a threat to their 'ownership' of the anti-war movement.

When bad timing means that Grassroots Against War and the IAWM end up calling demonstrations for two consecutive days, gaw call for people to support both demos, and advertise the IAWM demo on their mailouts and posters. When they look for the same courtesy from the IAWM, and ask that the IAWM allow them to speak at the Dublin demo, this is characterised as 'issuing demands'. So much for uniting to stop Bush's war!

The IAWM should be ashamed of themselves.

by Spaceshipman Thu Dec 12, 2002 16:50

He seems to be everywhere: Fingls, Ballymun, South Central. Have the SWP perfected cloning?

by silo Thu Dec 12, 2002 19:22

Numerous people above have said the GG have "anarchist leaders", which is a colossal misnomer in itself, but which also implies that somehow people can't get involved in GG. Nothing could be further from the truth; the GG meetings and actions are characterised by openness and a willingness to compromise in order to achieve common goals. The IAWM is *not* a SWP front (to the extent that, say, Globalise Resistance is), but the IAWM decisionmaking process is dominated by people who also just happen to be members of the SWP.

by Andrew Fri Dec 13, 2002 14:36

Silo the Nazi propagandist Gobbels explained that one of the secrets of lying was to accuse your enemies of what you intended to do yourself. So when SWPers refer to a secret anarchist leadership of GG what do you think they might actually be trying to covering up?

In reality GG has now evolved to the point where it is a little too informal - we do need some form of between gathering decision making. Something to discuss in the next Gathering I think (Limerick, around Patricks day). I suspect this will prove a bit of a challenge to work out in a way everyone is happy with as I'm sure even the need for it will be contentious.

by Denis Mon Dec 16, 2002 14:10

I thought Kevin Wingfield was from England. He certainly has an English accent.