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The Saker

Indymedia ireland

Indymedia Ireland is a volunteer-run non-commercial open publishing website for local and international news, opinion & analysis, press releases and events. Its main objective is to enable the public to participate in reporting and analysis of the news and other important events and aspects of our daily lives and thereby give a voice to people.

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The Saker >>

Public Inquiry
Interested in maladministration. Estd. 2005

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Public Inquiry >>

Human Rights in Ireland
Indymedia Ireland is a volunteer-run non-commercial open publishing website for local and international news, opinion & analysis, press releases and events. Its main objective is to enable the public to participate in reporting and analysis of the news and other important events and aspects of our daily lives and thereby give a voice to people.

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offsite link Israeli Human Rights Group B'Tselem finally Admits It is Genocide releasing Our Genocide report Fri Aug 01, 2025 23:54 | 1 of indy

Human Rights in Ireland >>

Change? No chance, Jack

category national | miscellaneous | news report author Monday December 09, 2002 18:41author by Denis Tourish Report this post to the editors

Change? No chance, Jack ================== The First Minister said he wanted to wipe out bigotry from football. Did the Old Firm's fans take his message to heart yesterday?


Change? No chance, Jack
==================
The First Minister said he wanted to wipe out bigotry from football. Did the
Old Firm's fans take his message to heart yesterday?

Stephen Khan
December 8, 2002


The action began long before a ball was kicked. 'Hello, hello, we are the
Billy boys,' came the call from pubs around Rangers' Ibrox Stadium. 'We're
up to our knees in Fenian blood - surrender or you'll die,' continued the
chant.
Across the Clyde and to the east, those being urged to surrender or die were
gathering to make the foray into enemy territory. Their barracks are in the
Gallowgate area that welcomed Irish immigrants in their thousands. Their
uniforms espoused images of Republicanism. The tri-colour was everywhere,
while hats bore the legend tiocfaidh ar la - our day will come.

Glasgow's Catholic and Protestant tribes prepared for battle yesterday
morning in the way they have for decades. Scotland's First Minister Jack
McConnell has declared that sectarianism will not be tolerated in the brave
new Scotland, but those who partake in the event most closely associated
with it regard his intervention as ridiculous. Indeed, it was the only thing
both groups of fans agreed on.

And as the 12.30pm kick-off approached, Glasgow was once again bedecked in
the symbols and flags of conflict across the Irish Sea.

Buses from Belfast, Derry and Bangor mingled in the city traffic with those
from Ayr, Lanarkshire and Falkirk. For every bus with a red hand of Ulster
on its back window there was another proclaiming support for Irish unity.

McConnell wants such images wiped off the face of Scottish football, but he
has declared a wider goal of ending the blight of sectarianism on west
central Scotland. To do so he plans new laws that will make religious hatred
an aggravated criminal offence.

His plans were welcomed by the anti-sectarian group Nil By Mouth, which
claims eight murders of Catholics in the year from 1999-2000 were linked to religious
hatred. Peter McLean said such crimes had to be recognised and claimed new
laws could work. 'I don't think it will be harder than with racism,' he
said. 'It is a process we are required to go through as a society.'

Nil By Mouth was set up by Cara Henderson, after her school friend Mark
Scott was stabbed to death when walking home from a game at Celtic's
Parkhead ground in 1996 with friends. A man with a knife approached him and
slashed his throat.

Although his jacket covered the team shirt he wore, Scott's attacker saw
enough to assume he was a Celtic supporter and a Catholic.

Yet fans remain scathing. In Baird's Bar on Gallowgate, Kevin McElwee
nervously predicted a Celtic win, but said his side would have to make the
most of set pieces. As Irish music blared into the packed pub, McElwee said
sectarianism was a problem that was not about to go away.

'You'll never eradicate it completely,' said the 24-year-old. 'It's been
this way for years and I can't see it changing. As for the things we take to
matches, they are our colours. There is nothing sectarian about the Irish
national flag - how can you ban that.'

The purge on bigotry was, he said, all about politics and nothing about
football. 'It's going to make no difference to life in Scotland if a few
flags are confiscated on a Saturday afternoon.'

Yes, Scotland had a problem, but it would not be solved by dictating what
fans could and could not take to the match, he added.

McElwee argued that a better starting point would have been the banning of
sectarian marches that make their way through most west of Scot land towns
and cities during the summer months.

McElwee echoed the words of composer James MacMillan, who two years ago
provoked outrage when he delivered a lecture entitled Scotland's Shame and
said he was embarrassed by his own country because of what he called
widespread anti-Catholic tendencies and 'sleep-walking bigotry'.

'Things aren't as bad as they used to be,' said McElwee. 'But when it is
written in stone that a Catholic cannot become monarch then that sends out
the wrong message. Down the years Celtic Football Club has given people a
focus and helped many out of poverty. It is wrong to target the fans of this
club to tackle sectarianism. They are its victims. They are not bigoted.'

His eloquence was, however, interrupted by the views of a straight-talking
friend. Leaning forward, he launched a tirade of personal abuse against the
First Minister. And with that parting message, the group made its way to
Ibrox.

At the stadium fans were flooding through turnstiles. The two teams locked
horns in Celtic's very first match in May 1888. Against the odds, it was the
side in green that ran out 5-2 winners then. The crowd was some 2,000
strong, women were admitted free and men payed sixpence. The two sets of
players chose to wind down together by sharing tea in a local hall.

It was all rather different yesterday. The sounds of hatred pierced the cold
winter air as fans milled around. 'IRA, IRA, IRA' was met with 'Fenian
scum'. Swarming near the entrance to the main stand were thousands bedecked
in the Union Flag. Some proclaimed loyalty to protestant paramilitary groups
such as the Ulster Defence Force.

'You can't just ban people taking these flags,' said Mark Williams, a
21-year-old Rangers fan who had travelled by ferry from Belfast. 'These are
our history and culture. Being British means being free to display your
pride in your past.'

Yet the Old Firm fans have stepped on to the international stage in their
ongoing quest to hate each other more. The latest flag of choice among
Rangers fans is Israeli. This has nothing to do with the fact that one of
the club's founder members was a man called Moses McNeil and everything to
do with the positive reception the Israeli government's crackdown on
Palestinians has been getting in certain quarters of Belfast.

'The IRA and the republicans are flying PLO flags, so we'll fly Israeli
flags,' explained another fan. 'Plus, we need a government here like the
Israelis. They don't mess, and they don't care about world opinion.'

And sure enough, down at the other end Celtic fans were arriving in tea
towels tied up like Arab robes and waving Palestinian flags. 'Their struggle
is the same as the Irish struggle,' said Martin Flynn who is from the
Dennistoun area of Glasgow. 'There is nothing sectarian about this. I have
Protestant friends who come to support Celtic.'

While police were scrutinising the messages on flags, few appeared to have
been confiscated, much to the relief of the vendors who peddletrinkets,
tapes and t-shirts at the ground. 'It is mad to talk about not letting the
fans take their traditions to the game,' said a man selling Celtic scarves
who admitted to being a Rangers fan.

'We don't sell any of the paramilitary stuff and all that comes over with
the fans from Ireland anyway. This push is just about politics and to divert
attention away from the mess they are making of the country. They should be
more worried about all the money they have wasted on the parliament
building.'

Is was perhaps predictable that McConnell's initiative would find little
favour with fans who spit on rival supporters cars, but within Scottish
football's corridors of power there has also been unease - not so much with
the sentiment, but rather the timing. On Wednesday a delegation will attempt
to persuade Uefa, European football's governing body, that it should stage
some of the Euro 2008 tournament in Glasgow.

Bid organisers said they were furious the Executive chose the week before
the decision is taken to highlight the problem of sectarianism. 'Our
opponents will pounce on this,' said a source close to the Scottish Football
Association. 'It was unfortunate having an Old Firm match so close to the
big day but to then bang on about bigotry just draws attention to it.'

Ironically, it is with the Republic of Ireland that Scotland is bidding to
host Euro 2008, a partnership many hoped might act as a guiding light for
communities where religious divide runs deep.

On the pitch, yesterday's Old Firm match was the usual frenetic encounter,
with Rangers eventually holding out for a 3-2 win. It took them back to the
top of a league that no Scottish team other than the two on display at Ibrox
has a hope of winning. The majority of the players are from abroad and know
little of the history and bitterness that blights the encounter, but the
ones in blue celebrated victory.

In the stands the majority of the 55,000 went wild, while those in green and
white made their escape. The match itself passed off peacefully. In recent
years, though, the violence has come on the city's streets and in pubs after
official hostilities have drawn to a close. McConnell may find little
support among Old Firm fans, but neutrals who encounter the Old Firm derby
late on a Saturday night may be more receptive.


author by Jerrypublication date Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Really, most Celtic and Rangers fans are just sectarian, skanger nobheads. They're like a bunch of kids fightin' over who owns the biggest pencil.

author by Raypublication date Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The first comment to this article was by me. Later comments were by some idiot shitstirrer. Top tips for future idiots - learn how to spell 'clogs' and remember that you capitalise the first letter after a full stop, but not after a comma.

author by BBBpublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 20:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As Anarchists the Belfast Blak Blok opposes sectarianism between workers.
The State cannot save the working class because its best tool has always been sectarianism/ racism/ homophobia / machism
So what the scot gvt is trying to do is going to fail simply because the answer is in the social struggle of the working class. The State will never answer this problem because it creates it ( the State ie the UK or the Free State, all States).
The brits and the free staters are working for the bosses not for us using our taxes and creating an illusion of democracy by making us vote between a twat and a cunt.
Smash sectarianism!
Smash both states!

author by Abraham Afooliamapublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Then, peace will reign on Indymedia.

author by pat cpublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i've never thrown around wild allegations, however when people try & misrepresent my politics by calling me a nationalist etc; then they shouldn't be surprised if the inconsistencies in their own politics are exposed to public view.

i suggested on several occasions to the sp , that we agree to disagree on the national question. but they accused me of trying to avoid debate.

i dont turn the other cheek after something like that.

your motives might be taken a bit more seriously if you didnt insist on remaining anonymous.

author by pat c (the real one)publication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

disagreement on indy.

there are other persons & groups on indy who are rather argumentive.

if you are looking for MI5 agents etc then you shouldn't be concentrating on anti-imperialists.

author by not Ray or Patpublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

That all these wild accusations that the pair of you throw around do nothing to advance Ireland IMC, I'm not going to suggest that either of you are agent-provoceturs, but there are some on the Indymedia network, and they exist because (believe it or not) the powers at be are genuinely concerned by the independent flow of information.
The pair of you endlessly squabble in such a way that you might as well be working for MI5 or somthing for all the damage that you do to the IMC.
Shut up with your damn sqabbling and point scoring.

everyone is a witness
everyone has a story
everyone is a journalist
we are all indymedia

author by The Real Slim Shadypublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

author by Ray - MI5? / SWP? / who carespublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

whoever you are your not contributing to Irelands independent news. so please just stop

author by Pat C - MI5publication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Really it's not, I think it could be some dodgy govt agency trying to distract attention away from the news

author by The Real Pat Cpublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Was that last comment really by Ray?

author by Raypublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Pat please stop adding pointless comments, It cloggs up the newswire

author by Pat Cpublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

yes it was- liar

author by Pat Cpublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

author by Pat c - SWPpublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 19:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

thankyou for your positive comments Ray

author by Raypublication date Mon Dec 09, 2002 18:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You have mastered the 'cut' and 'paste' options of your web browser, and successfully copied an article from the Observer on to indymedia.

Give yourself a gold star, and then fuck off.

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