the greed machine- Govt to bring back college fees!!!

by Ray Mon Aug 19, 2002 15:10

But why did you also post the entire story? And do you really think its so important to post this story anyway, given that its obviously just at the kite-flying stage? And how unlikely is it, do you think, that people would have missed the story anyway, given that it appeared in an Irish paper, and there have been similar articles in other Irish papers in the last couple of days too?

Its not original, its not hard to find, and (unlike an ad for a meeting or demo)it doesn't suggest an action readers can take, so why post it?

by Roo Mon Aug 19, 2002 15:24

Ray could you please stop giving out about articles and start posting them you little miserable little bitch...

by Ray Mon Aug 19, 2002 15:28

If by 'posting articles' you mean going to other sites and cutting and pasting their stories, I could fill this newswire within minutes.
I don't, because that's not 'creating passionate tellings of truth', which is what indymedia is supposed to be for, remember?

This is indymedia, not your weblog.

by Roo Mon Aug 19, 2002 15:38

Look spud boy, the reason I started coming to this site in the first place was because it always has an intresting round up (as well as some intelligent articles) that basically kick the shite outta most of the newspapers (they might be pasted but hey). As well as that I dont have time (duno about everyone else) to fart about on all those other sites, and Im well chuffed to come here and find that other people have done all this for me...

by Ray Mon Aug 19, 2002 15:52

Or find a weblog.
Or just take a few minutes more to look at the national news section of the Indo, the Palestine Chronicle, the foreign news section of the Guardian, and you'll find most of the articles that are pasted on here. Check out the Socialist Party and Socialist Workers Party site every couple of weeks and you'll find more.

According to the front page, "Indymedia is a collective of independent media organizations and hundreds of journalists offering grassroots, non-corporate coverage. Indymedia is a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth."

Not "to round up the articles that are published all across the web to save some bloke called Roo a few minutes surfing". If you want a site like that (and it could even be popular), set it up yourself. Don't complain because some other people set up something else.

by OK - SY Mon Aug 19, 2002 15:55

The Government are determined to cut back on our living standards and the gains that working people made. The reintroduction of fees is just the latest example of a long line of cuts they have planned.

Tomorrow Socialist Youth are organising a protest against the unjust CAO points system and the 70% increase in registration fees. Outside the Dept of Education Marlbrough St, Dublin 1. at 1pm

by James McBride Mon Aug 19, 2002 16:36

why do you all spend so much time bitching at each other and not those who are the real cause? Are you delusional and afraid of the real fight? Ray typifies the shite.... quit bitching and get active. IMC will surive and prosper if we get construtive and not wallow in shallow critiques of shallow issues....

by Chekov - WSM Mon Aug 19, 2002 18:43

Listen folks, you might not like it but indymedia has a specific function which Ray is trying to defend. You might not like this function but you are welcome to join the collective and argue for it to be changed. Ray has taken upon himself the unpleasant but very necassary task of complaining when people abuse the site. He is actually doing something, not just bitching. You lazy bastards who want to post whatever ye feel like, regardless of the wishes of the people who do the work, make me sick.

Also I know Ray and he does a damned sight more in the real world than the vast majority of the users of the site. He has taken part in hundreds of protests, written hundreds of articles, gone to countless campaign meetings. How dare yez presume to insult him for his activities on the net.

And Roo, threatening to kick the ass of somebody, under an anonymous pseudonym on an indymedia site is oh so brave. Ray must be quaking in his boots. Jeez I just hope you don't threaten to kick mine.

by publo Mon Aug 19, 2002 18:56

I just heard Mary Breatnach, the minister who abolished the fees a few years ago. she was speaking on 'five seven live' on radio1. She said that when she was in office the dept of finance had proposed to her that to save costs, free secondary education should be ended. I wonder if its the same civil servants there now working away to someones agenda or to their own, wanting to end the concept of education for all?

by Ruairi Mon Aug 19, 2002 20:37

Ray, firstly apologies if I somehow offended you by re-posting a SBPost article. I am however aware that many IMC readers wouldn't be reading the Business Post and therefore many not have had access, or knowledge of the article in question.

However, I write this from Canada, so I may be wrong.

In my travels around the U.S. and Canada, I've come face to face with the cash culture day in and day out. Part of this is the debt phenonemon - as being try desperately to emulate the TV dream, to climb the ladder, to gain power and enlightenment - they are getting up to their eyes in debt.

Playing the game (often too easily done in this controlling society) often means getting into serious debt, and later depression. North American is dying from both.

A huge component of the debt system is education. Education = liberation, right? Not here. The average student graduates with about $40,000 debt - half a bloody mortgage.

It is the source of major, angst, worry and depression here. Many students regret their subject choice but are compelled to work in that profession. Others, who want to study the arts - cannot because there aren't any decent paying jobs upon graduation, from which they can repay the debt , and the huge interest!

So what I'm saying is the American system - in pumping privitised (or part private) education - is also driving a dumbing down process, the conversion of education into corporate training, and with it the creation of a miserable people.

I say this because - Ireland, be warned! Americano is well and truly got it's foot on Irish soil - and ANY TINY sign of Private education must be resisted immediately. These type of things are often soundbytes for the media and public to test our reaction and then they take it from there. Just like we were fed bytes of 'rejoining the commonwealth' 2 yrs ago - the public got hostile and they dropped it like a rash.

Bertie and co. are feeling good, feeling powerful. They will try anything now.

LIKE the proposed Tara motorway, we gotta resist their privitising-greed orientated agendas right now! right now!!!!!

by Ray Tue Aug 20, 2002 08:57

My problem is not with the article in question, but with the idea that articles from mainstream sources should be reprinted on indymedia 'in case anyone missed them'. Although I can see why people would like to have a single site they could go to to read articles collected from newspapers around the world, this should not be that site. Indymedia was created for original journalism, not reprints.

This article is particularly open to criticism, because the reintroduction of college fees was also raised in yesterday's Independent, and probably in the Times and Examiner too. So this article will have been seen, not just by Sunday Business Post readers, but by anyone who reads one of the daily broadsheets.

Finally, (and least importantly), you may not know that free third-level education is a relatively recent thing in Ireland. And, as it says in the article you reprinted, fees were much lower here than they are in the states. As it also says in the article above, free fees haven't done anything to broaden access to education - it might be better to divert the money to higher maintenance grants for students in need, and that's an argument the government is sure to make. So a more important goal might be to make sure that the level of government funding for education grants isn't reduced, rather than argue that that funding should be spent on making third-level free for all. Anyway, whatever your opinion on this, it doesn't change the fact that the original article doesn't belong on the newswire.

by Ruairi Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:51

fair points my friend, I realise there are many aspects and arguments to this debate but my soul aim is that there is actually a debate, something so seriously lacking in Irish society.

IN any case, we'll solider on until further news, which hopefully comes from Indy sources.....

thanks and keep fightin' the good fight! Ruairi