Free Palestine March

by r whelan Sat Jun 09, 2007 23:42

images copyright 2007

by r whelan Sat Jun 09, 2007 23:47

images copyright 2007

by PaddyK Sun Jun 10, 2007 02:35

It's Beautiful !

by David L - IPSC Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:57

Are there any estimates for how many turned up on the day?

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:38

Great pics - I counted over 620 as we were funnelling back onto Dame Street.
Total absence of news media - RTE covered about 100 Orangemen marhing in London - not a word about our march.
Priorities !!

by garethppls Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:12

It's a shame that RTÉ didn't cover it at all. It was a fantastic day, and I was marching with them. The speeches afterwards were all very interesting and I think that it did have a lot of impact regardless of whether it was in the media or not.

by TD - IPSC Sun Jun 10, 2007 13:12

5!

Saed Jamal Abu-Hijleh

Raymond Deane

by TD - IPSC Sun Jun 10, 2007 13:26

5!

Redoubtable Margaretta (D'Arcy)

This young dude was the spirit of the demo

by formal Sun Jun 10, 2007 13:29

More pictures at related link.

by K Branno Sun Jun 10, 2007 15:07

Great to see a member of orga Fine Gael at yesterdays march.

by J.Carax Sun Jun 10, 2007 16:46

:)

Anarcho Bloc.

by J.Carax Sun Jun 10, 2007 16:52

: )

by J.Carax Sun Jun 10, 2007 17:01

: )

by ceistiuchan Sun Jun 10, 2007 18:12

Very short, poor quality, but worth a listen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=512Yw3TJwz0

by counter Sun Jun 10, 2007 18:30

The attendance was about 300 which was good for a very balmy day.

I don't know where MichaelY gets his 600+ figure from. I wish people would be honest abut such things. No doubt MichaelY will tell us he counted everybody - but so did I. Plus I have eyes in my head and it never reached anything close to 600.

The turnout was very good but 300 would be an accurate figure.

Well done to the organisers!

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Sun Jun 10, 2007 19:49

I agree with the message above that the organisers should be congratulated.
I also add that the march was colourful, vibrant, militant and fun.
Now, as to the counting, the counter's counter above was obviously stuck somewhere. I counted 600+ as we were turning into Dame Street. The ongoing traffic had been stopped and it was easy to count. You know, 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on.
I also agree that a bit of honesty never hurt anybody.....
As a test I tried to count participants from the pictures posted above....why don't you count counter, again, 1,2,3 4 and see what you get - lol.

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Sun Jun 10, 2007 19:58

As a further test, counter, pls check the following link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/quadrax/sets/7215759423531...2439/ - nick as many as you like .

by Kev - various Sun Jun 10, 2007 20:11 palestinephoto at gmail dot com

Feel free to nick any of my pics.

Lots more of my photos at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/quadrax/sets/7215759423531...2439/

The Wall at O'Connell Bridge

Die-in at the Eu Offices

More dying-in

Outside Trinity

Outside Trinity again

by Kev - various Sun Jun 10, 2007 20:16 palestinephoto at gmail dot com

Lots more photos at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/quadrax/sets/7215759423531...2439/

Huge IPSC banner

Palestine unfree...

Saed from Nablus is heckled by some idiot on crutches - "Keep your eyes on the prize!"

Coming onto O'Connell Street

More coming onto O'Connell Street

by Kev - various Sun Jun 10, 2007 20:24 palestinephoto at gmail dot com

Well done to everyone involved in organising the march - those who postered, leafletted, made banners and placards (got minor sunstroke!) etc etc etc. And special thanks to Saed for coming over to Ireland and speaking to activists, and at the rally.

Round of applause and pats on the back all round!

Lots more photos at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/quadrax/sets/7215759423531...2439/

Outside Trinners yet again

People enjoy the sunshine and the speeches

The march sets off on Dame Street

Somewhere near the EU Offices (I think)

Saed from Nablus

by cruncher - --- Sun Jun 10, 2007 21:09

[mis]counter:

you shouldn't call people on inflating the size of a demonstration unless you know what you're talking about. 600 on the rally, without question; possibly 800 at peak.

why the mischief anyway?

by DM Sun Jun 10, 2007 22:41

I'd agree with above post, I was there too and at it's peak there was well over 300 people there, we lost people as the march went on but it was a great turn out

by Jacqueline Fallon Sun Jun 10, 2007 23:25

Congratulations to the IPSC and everyone else who assisted in making this Palestinian solidarity march such a successful event. I attended the march myself and I thought it was heartening to see so many in attendance (and on such a rare sunny day as well).

I wish people didn't get so fixated on exact numbers, it was blatantly obvious to everyone there that it was very well attended, and the message of solidarity with the beleaguered people of Palestine came across load and clear and that is all that matters.

Well done everyone. Keep up the good work!

Sonas oraibh.

by Gerald Fleming Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:12

Yes congratulations to all ,but especially to Mr Sol whose smiling presence on the day encouraged attendance by many who may otherwise not have participated.

by SP Member - SP, SY (CWI) Mon Jun 11, 2007 14:19 info at socialistparty dot net

Middle East - Repression and bloodshed continues
40 years since the Arab-Israel 1967 war

Dave Carr, The Socialist (Engalnd & Wales)

The start of a six-day war on 5 June 1967 between Israel and its neighbouring Arab states resulted in an overwhelming military victory for Israel. The political effects of the war continue to shape the conflict in the region today.

Victory meant that Israel had control of eastern Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Egypt's Sinai Peninsula (causing the closure of the Suez Canal) and Syria's Golan Heights.

Today, Israel retains control over East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. The continuing occupation of these territories and the settlement of Israeli Jews in these areas, is a source of great conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and between Israel and Syria.

The Sinai was returned to Egypt following a peace treaty in 1979. Israel's former prime minister Ariel Sharon unilaterally withdrew settlers and troops from the Gaza Strip in 2005, but the area remains blockaded by Israel and is subjected to air strikes and regular incursions by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF).

While Palestinians have been denied national statehood and continue to suffer brutal repression from the IDF as well as social and economic oppression, areas of Palestinian land have been annexed by Israeli settlers, encouraged or orchestrated by successive Israeli governments.

Creation of Israel

The establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 following a brief Arab-Jewish war - and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Israel and the subsequent expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries - created a new source of political instability in the Middle East.

The Israeli ruling class and its expansionist policy came to be militarily and politically aided by the US, which saw the new state as a bulwark against Soviet influence and anti-imperialist Arab nationalism.

"Israel thus becomes a cock-pit for the policies of the Great Powers. The Israeli leaders have allowed themselves to become the willing tools of imperialism. She has become also a convenient scapegoat for the failings of the Arab governments" wrote the Militant, - The Socialist's predecessor in June 1967.

In 1956 Israel colluded with Britain and France to invade Egypt in an attempt at 'regime change' after Egypt's populist president, colonel Nasser, nationalised the Anglo-French Suez Canal company.

Tit-for-tat cross border military raids by Palestinian guerrillas and Israeli forces continued to escalate during the 1960s. In April 1967 a border incident escalated into a full-scale aerial battle between Israel and Syria over the Golan Heights.

On the eve of the 1967 war, Militant wrote: "The immediate cause of the conflict has been the threat of the Israelis to march on Damascus, the capital of Syria, in retaliation for the [Palestinian] guerrilla raids organised from Syrian territory. This provided the opportunity for Nasser to order the United Nations force, which had stood between Israel and Egypt ever since the Suez war of 1956, to quit Egyptian territory and to march his troops up to the Gaza strip on the frontiers of Israel."

The 1967 war, far from bringing security for Israelis, deepened Arab-Israeli enmity and was followed by more wars and further suffering among Arabs and Israelis. It exposed the impotence of the United Nations as a body for conflict prevention and resolution. It exposed too the rottenness of the semi-feudal Arab regimes and Nasser's pan-Arab nationalism.

Neither the world imperialist powers nor the capitalist ruling classes in the region can solve the burning questions of national and democratic rights. Only a socialist federation of Middle Eastern states, including a socialist Palestine and a socialist Israel - established by a revolutionary movement of the working class and poor - can lay the basis for peace and end poverty and exploitation.

[The Socialist Party website will carry an article on the present situation in the Palestinian occupied territories later this month.]

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Mon Jun 11, 2007 15:03

"Only a socialist federation of Middle Eastern states, including a socialist Palestine and a socialist Israel - established by a revolutionary movement of the working class and poor - can lay the basis for peace and end poverty and exploitation" - thus concludes Dave Carr's article above. To be followed, we are told, by an article "...on the present situation in the Palestinian occupied territories" ,

A few comments and a few questions

First, it's good to see our SP comrades focus on the Palestinian issue; it's positive that progressive people, activists, left wingers look a bit further that their own constituencies, their own circles of influence. I think we can agree that an end to exploitation and to poverty, as much as to war, is a common objective. The political conclusion quoted above, however methinks, raises a few questions:

(1) 'The revolutionary movement of the working class and poor', that will lead this project of the socialist federation needs a slightly better clarification than what's supplied above. Also what must be clarified is the profile and identity of the 'Middle Eastern states referred to above. Furthermore, what needs to be amplified is how to get from a situation that a very large majority of working class people (and poor) from one dominant state (aka Israel) who oppress and aggress and murder the citizens (and the working class people including the poor) of some neighbouring states (e.g Lebanon) and working class people and the poor in the occupied territories get to the point of coalescing and linking and working together in the format of a unified movement......modalities, time scale, structures need to be set and explained here. Otherwise it appears, at least initially, as a pipe dream. Especially as after 60 years of oppression and ethnic cleansing, the working class people and the poor of Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq or Egypt have quite serious problems with their Israeli class brothers and sisters....how to overcome all that?
(2) What's also missing are the transitional (ouch) steps of how to resolve a number of key issues:
a. Is the 'right to return' of exiled Palestinians applicable in this process?
b. How do Hamas, Hezbollah and other islamic forces active and dominant within sections of the working people and the poor among the oppressed fit in this project? If at all....are they to be supplanted....fought against as some CIA inspired Fatah heads are doing in Gaza?
c. If we take the process step by step is the demand for one single democratic State in Palestine, or perhaps two, relevant at all or are these, perhaps, the wrong questions to ask?

To conclude, the SP have done a good and solid job by starting this debate...let us deepen it. In my opinion, in terms of what's going on in Palestine, but also in Iraq and Afghanistan and Lebanon, this debate is as important, if not more important,of how many transfers Clare or Richard would/should have got if they were to be elected......

Looking forward to your responses comrades.

My country is being torn apart.....

by Eamon Mon Jun 11, 2007 15:56

Whilst I agree with a lot of what the SP member said, I do think that you have to hold the line on arguing for a single Palestinian State, that covers the whole of what is currently Israel and the Palestinian Authority, as opposed to a federation in the middle east that includes both Palestine and Israel. A single state, based on equality for all of its inhabitants, whether jewish or palestinian, is the only long-term answer. The SP line makes concessions to Zionism, but there can be no move to socialism whilst the Zionist entity remains in existence

by Abu Nidal Mon Jun 11, 2007 16:05

"How do Hamas, Hezbollah and other islamic forces active and dominant within sections of the working people and the poor among the oppressed fitin this project? If at all....are they to be supplanted....fought against as some CIA inspired Fatah heads are doing in Gaza?"

I notice you are posting with IPSC after your name. Do the IPSC take the side of Hamas in the unfortunate fighting in Palestine? Do the IPSC believe that Fatah are CIA inspired?

I don't believe that this is the case. It would help if someone who actually represents the IPSC were to post here and give their position.

by David L - IPSC Mon Jun 11, 2007 16:36

Hi, I'm the secretary of the IPSC. In response to Abu Nidal, the IPSC doesn't take sides in the current fighting in Gaza. We also do not believe that Fatah is CIA inspired. We see our business as providing solidarity to Palestinians and the rights of the democratically elected government of the P.A. , but this does not involve supporting this faction or that.

Hope that clears up matters and thanks to everyone who turned up and who helped out on Saturday.

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Mon Jun 11, 2007 16:39

"Some CIA inspired Fatah heads are doing in Gaza..." was my comment. Like those heads who attacked PM Haniyeh's house yesterday while his family was inside. Like those who dropped Hamas militants from the 12th floor to their death!!
I agree with you that the inter-Palestinian fighting in Gaza is unfortunate...I also believe it is inspired by the Empire, the way civil strife has been concocted in Iraq and is cooked in Lebanon.. In that context, you could perhaps talk to Indymedia about the specific role played by M. Dahlan - also, looking at the handle you chose, talk to us about how you perceive democracy, how you see the position of Hamas being the elected representatives of the Palestinian people..... IPSC comrades have their views on these issues, each one to our own so to speak, and I'm sure they won't delay making them clear......

by Curious Mon Jun 11, 2007 16:47

"IPSC comrades have their views on these issues, each one to our own so to speak, and I'm sure they won't delay making them clear......"

Isn't it normal practice then to put personal capacity after your affiliation if you aren't actually speaking for them.

by Abu Nidal Mon Jun 11, 2007 17:07

" IPSC comrades have their views on these issues, each one to our own so to speak, and I'm sure they won't delay making them clear..."

Individuals may have their views but an official IPSC spokesman has now made it clear that your views are not those of the IPSC. Perhaps you should drop the IPSC after your name.

by Free Palestine Mon Jun 11, 2007 17:18 osfnational at yahoo dot ie

Ógra Shinn Féin took part in the event, spokesperson for the youth movement, Oisin Dolan said,

"We send solidarity to the people of Palestine who have suffered at the hands of Zionist aggression and hatred for far too long. We call for the withdrawal of support for the Israeli occupation by the European Union and renew our denunciation of imperialism and all it's by products."

For video of March: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFFVIT9Y9Bk

by Free Palestine Mon Jun 11, 2007 17:20

Heres the pic of Dublin's march, not strabane!

by Johnny H - IPSC Mon Jun 11, 2007 17:25

I'd just like to say a big thankyou to all the activists from Amnesty, AWI, IAWM, ISN, SP, CPI, CYM, SWP, WSM , Eirigi, OSF, SF, Workers Power, LY, Greens and individuals who helped us build for this demo by putting up 2500 posters and making banners, placards and all sorts of stuff. We couldn't have done it without you comrades so thanks for giving up your time to provide solidarity for the oppressed Palestinian people! See you at the next Palestine demo or in other progressive campaigns.

All the best, John.

40 Years Is Enough

The Amnesty Bloc

by raymond deane - IPSC Mon Jun 11, 2007 18:24

Friends and not-so-friends -
This is my reconstruction of the speech I made outside the EU offices in Molesworth St.
Raymond

Once it seemed to make sense to talk of the EU as a counterbalance to the USA, which supports Israel unconditionally.

This was always an illusion. Nowadays we can see that the EU was always America's counterpart, rather than a counterweight.

Yet never have EU and US policies converged so totally as at present. This is typified by the EU's boycott of the democratically elected Palestinian administration, at the behest of the US.

Remember: the EU and Israel have an Association Agreement that grants Israel trading privileges ON CONDITION that it observe human rights. Because of Israel's persistent violations of the human rights of the Palestinians, the European Parliament in 2002 twice called for the suspension of the Association Agreement, and was twice ignored. Some parliament, and some democracy! But is our own parliament [gestures contemptuously towards Dáil!] any more democratic?

The Irish government has told us repeatedly that we must not boycott Israel as we once boycotted apartheid South Africa, because we must not isolate Israel, we must engage in dialogue with Israel. Nonetheless, when the Palestinians democratically elected a Hamas regime in the first exemplary democratic election ever held in the Arab world, the EU's response was: BOYCOTT THEM - ISOLATE THEM! In other words: engage in dialogue with the rapist, but boycott and isolate the rapist's victim.

Under international humanitarian law the Palestinians under occupation are a "protected people". Some protection! The EU, instead of protecting them, is attempting to starve them into kissing the Israeli jackboot and surrendering their inalienable rights, which is something they will never do. In doing this, the EU is perpetrating a crime against humanity, and the Irish government is fully complicit in this crime. Under international humanitarian law, it is a crime to starve a people for political motives. The Irish government is complicit in this crime too.

Because this government supposedly "represents" us, we, the Irish people, are also made complicit in these crimes and in the crimes of the Israeli state.

We must reject this complicity. We must let the Irish government - whichever coalition of chancers emerges as the next Irish government - know that we reject its complicity with Israel's crimes. We must demand that the Irish government call for sanctions against the apartheid state of Israel similar to those which helped to end South African apartheid. We must set an example by boycotting Israeli goods - and our supermarkets at present are full of them, in particular POTATOES, as if we had no Irish potatoes! - and by supporting a comprehensive sporting, cultural and academic boycott of Israel.

APARTHEID FELL - ZIONISM WILL ALSO FALL. WE MUST ACCELERATE ITS FALL!

by Margaretta D'arcy - Aosdána Mon Jun 11, 2007 19:50

Speech given outside the GPO by Margaretta D’Arcy, for the “40 years of occupation” Palestinian Solidarity March – 9th June 2007.

I have just returned from occupied territories – not in the West Bank but in Mayo, Rossport, where there is an occupation imposed by Shell, aided and abetted by our government, with the takeover of land and the potential dispossession of people from that land – which is the heart of the matter in the Israeli conflict. The fundamental support I’d like to call for today is support for those Israelis who are in daily struggle opposed to the occupation of Palestinian land.
This is what I brought back from my visit to Israel and the West Bank last year – an acknowledgement and understanding of those who oppose not only injustice and illegal possession of land but also a deliberate policy of cultural engineering to coerce acceptance of hegemony and domination.
Israel’s coercion is based on the concept of the warrior state. There is universal military conscription combined with an attempt to brainwash every Jewish child in Israel with this ideology – it is based on instilling a constant fear of attack, using the memory of the holocaust as the supreme bogy. Warriors of the Zionist pen as well as warriors of the gun and the cluster bomb – they have been particularly activated since Israel’s failure against Lebanon, their first military defeat – we can see them here in Ireland rushing into action in response to any article or letter in the press or a vote in some organization that offers even a mild questioning of Israeli policy – they move in en-masse, attacking over and over again with the same venomous message that all criticism is anti-semitic, that we deny the holocaust, or even that we support the holocaust. There seem to be a lot of them but maybe that is only because they do move in en-masse and cause us to overlook all those warriors for justice who are constant in their struggle in Israel but who somehow get left out of the main vista and only rarely are highlighted in the media.
These are the people who can only be strengthened by our support and endorsement, the people whom we must listen to if they call upon us to boycott official Israeli propaganda efforts to hijack art and scholarship. I am thinking, for example, of the Women in Black who daily risk their lives by standing openly in the streets of Tel Aviv with their message of opposition to the occupation of Palestinian lands; I am thinking of the women of the Machsom Watch who stand at the checkpoints to monitor violations of human rights, often intervening and getting beaten up by their own soldiers; I am thinking of the Israeli Committee against Home Demolitions; I am thinking of Zochrot, a group of Israeli citizens who work to raise awareness of the Nakba; I am thinking of Peace Now who challenge the occupations in the courts; I am thinking of the Labourers’ Voice in Nazareth in its resistance to a new American-neocon-style welfare structure that amounts to the privatisation of poverty; I am thinking of those Palestinian women’s groups who have refused to accept US aid because they will compromise by signing “anti-terrorist” clauses; I am thinking of course of the refusniks who will not accept the absolute power of the military – and finally I am thinking of the PWWSD, the Palestinian Working Woman Society for Development whose first strategic objective is “to strengthen and empower women in the decision-making process,” – in regard to this, we constantly hear of the breaking of UN resolutions by Israel but how often do we hear of UN Resolution 1325 which states that women must be part of all conflict resolution, and that money and resources must be given to women to participate in the negotiations for conflict – for in fact they keep their communities together, bearing children, burying their children who have been taken from them by war and starvation, they have a keen emotional intelligence born out of struggle and in the long run they are the ones without whom human conflict can never be solved. And in Israel and Palestine they are the ones who can finally bypass governments and forge the links between embattled communities – let us demand that these women’s voices are not only heard but listened to – and their needs and demands implemented.

by Ciarán Tue Jun 12, 2007 00:22

SP member: "Only a socialist federation of Middle Eastern states, including a socialist Palestine and a socialist Israel - established by a revolutionary movement of the working class and poor - can lay the basis for peace and end poverty and exploitation."

I really hate this kind of vacuous catch-all sloganising that the SP always throws onto the end of its articles. They pretty much say the exact same thing whenever they write about the six counties too, just replace 'socialist federation of Middle Eastern states' with 'socialist federation of the British Isles' and hey presto, there you go.

Still, it's pretty much par for the course with a party that seems to consider questions of colonialism and imperialism to be antagonistic to "workers' unity" and satisfies itself with calling for all workers to just get along.

(All this being said, the SP are certainly not the only group on the broad left who are guilty of empty sloganising.)

by Paul O'Hanlon Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:51 o_hanlon at hotmail dot com Edinburgh, Scotland

Here is a round up of the demonstrations for Palestine which took place around the world - the one in London seems to have been the biggest at 20-25 thousand. There was one in Jerusalem and one in Washington DC - there is audio from the DC protest, photos from London and a video of Cindy Corrie (Mother of Rachel Corrie).
http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/06/373336.html

Paul.

by Lickspittle Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:53

I don't know if anyone noticed that Israel supported UN resolution 242 back in 1967.

The Israelis would leave the West Bank etc. under 242, if their neighbours recognised their state and allowed them to coexist. This hasn't happened in 40 years and the Palestinians have suffered horribly.

The involvement of Jordan in the 1967 war started with unprovoked shelling from the West Bank into Israel. King Husain had been told by Nasser that all was going well, tho' Nasser's airforce had just been destroyed.

We can't support Israel's land grabs in the West bank, but unless the Palestinians change their attitude to the state next door they will lose the lot in the next 40 years. Protesting outside the EU offices in Dublin won't help our Palestinian friends to make that change.

by BK Tue Jun 12, 2007 14:24

The above post is misleading on all counts. Israel deliberately provoked the war, a fact now recognized by all the leading historians and confirmed in the heap of intelligence declassified recently, especially by the US. See Avi Schlaim's _The Iron Wall_ for the most meticulous, devastating account of Israel's actions in 1967.

On 242, Israel said it would only accept a version that did not stipulate that it withdraw from ALL territories captured in 1967, and which did not recognize a group of people called 'Palestinians.' In return for this, its leaders demanded unconditional recognition of the Zionist state.

Spare us your crocodile tears over Palestinian 'suffering,' lickspittle. There's no mystery as to why it persists.

by sarcastic Tue Jun 12, 2007 16:46

"it's pretty much par for the course with a party that seems to consider questions of colonialism and imperialism to be antagonistic to "workers' unity" and satisfies itself with calling for all workers to just get along"

Yeah, to think there's an organisation out there that identifies the connection between 'questions of colonialism and imperialism' to the class struggle!!

Imperialism's not about big bad Israelis or Protestants Ciarán, it's a develoment in the relations of exploitation within an inherently exploitative system (capitalism). But sure don't mind the fools trying to put forward a solution to the oppression caused by world imperialism based on an analysis of what imperialism IS!

by Lickspittle Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:35

Looking back (as we are), the Israeli request wasn't much of a big deal compared to the many thousands killed since then. If you wanted a permanent peace. The macho element on both sides didn't want peace.

'Palestine' was a British name put on the flag of the mandate. To distinguish it from Syria in 1918. I don't have a hang-up about it but obviously the Israelis did. The occupied lands were part of Jordan and Egypt in 1966.

As regards the West Bank, had king Husain done nothing in 1967 it would still be a part of Jordan today. The Israeli brutality since then doesn't change that cardinal fact.

by pat c Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:39

"As regards the West Bank, had king Husain done nothing in 1967 it would still be a part of Jordan today. The Israeli brutality since then doesn't change that cardinal fact."

If he had done nothing then the Jordanian Army would have mutinied. Jordanian and Palestinian forces had already started shelling IDF positions before they received official orders to do so.

by Lickspittle Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:07

Well that didn't help the Palestinians, did it?

As for 2007, the EU funding should continue only when Hamas and Fatah have resolved their fight. I am against the EU involving itself too deeply in such matters in case it ever drags us into a war somewhere. It wasn't set up to be an interventionist foreign-policy counterbalance to the USA, or to anyone else; just for the benefit of us Europeans.

If you lose a short game, you have to play a long game. With 65% unemployed in Gaza the Palestinians have to focus on prosperity and not violence. The dependency culture is too demeaning and solves nothing.

by Feyadeen Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:30

God you really are a lickspittle aren't you? They live their lives under occupation, constantly harassed and repressed by the Israeli army, which deliberately disrupts every single aspect of everyday life, and you have the nerve to point the finger at them from your comfortable western perch and tell them that the "dependency culture" is "demeaning". Why don't you go down to the hospital tomorrow and tell the rape victims that their "culture of victimhood" is "demeaning" and they should just concentrate on getting back to work instead of asking for the rapist to be prosecuted.

by Lickspittle Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:53

That's exactly my point. How do they get from there to here? If they don't adapt they will suffer on - the women and children suffering a good bit more than the men who make the decisions. If they do adapt they have a chance.

We were poor and free between 1922 and 1990. Didn't do us much good. My 'comfortable western perch' is the result of my and my ancestors hard work and ability to adapt and survive. I don't regret being on it. I know what it took. Otherwise I wouldn't have this computer, nor know how to use it.

I know that's a minority view on Indymedia but fighting doesn't work so they need to find another strategy. When they do, we /the EU should help the Palestinians get on their feet.

by Feyadeen Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:09

There's a reason why your view is a minority one - because it's utterly depraved and obscene. You are demanding that the Palestinians forgot all about the fact that they live their lives under occupation and have the most basic daily routines disrupted by the Israeli army, and somehow conjure out of thin air a prosperous economy in spite of the utter determination of the Israeli state to keep the Palestinians in a dependent, impoverished state. And then they might just be worthy of the support of a wonderful gentleman like yourself. Well let's hope the Palestinians never reach the state when you feel able to support them - if they did, they would have no self respect or dignity left whatsoever. You are in the exact same position as a man who tells a rape victim that she should forget about her bruises, get up off the hospital bed and go off to work (in fact, go off to work with the man who raped her, would be the correct analogy). Your racist amorality, masquerading as some kind of pragmatic attitude, is as vile as anything I've ever seen posted on this site.

by David L Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:36

Lickspittle writes 'We were poor and free between 1922 and 1990.', the implication being that Palestinians are free too now, and should resolve immediately to get themselves down to the local jobcentre and stop whinging.

It's an odd position. One of the purposes of the post-Oslo Israeli strategy has been to destroy all aspects of the Palestinian economy. If - after looking at how Israel sytematically destroys all aspects of Palestinian infrastructure and restricts their freedom to conduct basic economic affairs - you can tell me how they can build up their economy, I'd be interested. Because, god knows, they're trying.

On one point we can agree, the undesirability of a dependency culture. Palestinians I've met hate the fact that the destruction of their economy has forced them to rely on handouts. Better than starving, but far from what is acceptable.

When Palestine enjoys a modicum of freedom, feel free to criticise their economy. Till then, such comments are just jokes in bad taste.

by Lickspittle Wed Jun 13, 2007 13:35

No they're not. I'm saying that they can be free someday, and still may blow their chance to be prosperous as well. I hope they will achieve both.

Therefore they might as well focus on prosperity now, even if starting in atrociously difficult circumstances. Obviously that needs investment and nobody will invest while the 'leaders' fight each other. If you're in a hole you stop digging.

They have wanted to destroy Israel in the past and it hasn't worked. Hamas still does, or at best is ambivalent. It can't be done in the near future. Much of their policy must be dropped, and that is hard on 'self-respect' and harder on the refugees of 1948 and 1967. But what other route do they have? The longer they leave it, the more settlers will pour in and the less they will have to work with.

We all drop policies that don't seem to work. Here the anti-Border policy didn't work in 1922 - 1998 and we voted to stop agonizing over it. Now there is no visible border. What self-respect did we lose? None, if you think about it.

A great friend of mine is a priest in Jerusalem whose congregation is Christian Arab. They have had it in the neck from both sides.

by Feyadeen Wed Jun 13, 2007 13:40

At least you don't make any attempt to hide your attitude - you believe that the Palestinians must abandon any hope of becoming independent or free and let the Israelis trample all over them, so they can earn your respect, As I said, you dress up the most nauseating racism in the language of bogus pragmatism and reasonableness. Your posts are a sick joke. You might as well have urged the slaves in the American South in the 19th century to forget about emancipation and concentrate on producing as many university graduates as possible.

by Lickspittle Wed Jun 13, 2007 14:00

No, I'm saying that to be eventually free and prosperous they have to change their policy now. They are badly trampled on already. However long freedom takes, they have to get on with their neighbours and each other, or nobody will help them.

I can't think of a harder task, but they have to get out of the situation they are in now. They have to decide to change, nobody else can do that for them.

by David L Wed Jun 13, 2007 14:01

The idea that if the Palestinians stopped resisting Israel then Israel would stop the settlements is unfortunately nonsense. During the years of Oslo there was effectively peace and it was in this 7-year period that over half of the present-day settlers came to the West Bank.

I think lickspittle should read something about the dynamics of present-day Israel. Jonathan Cook's recent book would be a good start, as would Tanya Reinhardt's. Sorry if that sounds a bit patronising, but I find your remarks truly bizarre.

To spell it out: Israel isn't being nasty to Palestinians as a side-effect of security policy, but because this is their policy, their objective. As Ben-Gurion said years ago 'We will treat them like dogs, then whoever wishes to leave will leave'. Their aim is actually the immiseration of Palestinians, in order to achieve an ethnically pure land. I wish it weren’t the case, and if the rest of the world stopped supporting them in these policies they may indeed change them.

But these are their policies. Now, I’m sure Palestinians could have made better tactical choices, and I deplore the faction fighting as much as you, but when the policies of the people who have absolute power over them are to destroy them, isn’t it more important to change those policies than criticise Palestinians?

The analogy is criticising prisoners and not the prison system for their inability to organise a functioning independent economy. I’m sorry, but it’s simply nonsense

by Lickspittle Wed Jun 13, 2007 15:20

You're right David. Please don't think I approve at all of the occupation or dislocation or the settlements. I'm worried that if they don't rethink their policy they will be driven out. The longer it takes, the less they will end up with. Or they will end up with nothing at all.

I can't see the 1948 and 1967 refugees wanting to compromise. Nor the Israeli settlers. Much of Gaza was evacuated by Israel in 2005, including settlers, and yet they have ended up fighting each other and lobbing rockets into Israel. That was a (slim) chance to organise the place and show us what they could do, given half an opportunity. Now the Israelis can argue: 'We pulled out of 90% of Gaza and look what happened. How can we pull out of the west bank?'

That small element of trust that should (all going well) have turned into more trust, and more concessions, and greater international funding, has disappeared, thanks to a few nutcase elements with more testosterone than brains. Only so many chances will come along. That chance took endless pressure and international meetings, not least helped along by the EU, and when it failed the natural result is to pause before trying again. That's how it works, like it or not.

by David L - IPSC Wed Jun 13, 2007 20:08

We'll have to agree to disagree then, lickspittle. I still believe that the fundamental problem for Palestinians is that they don't have a partner for peace, as Oslo showed.

I don't believe that if the Palestinians roll over and play dead this will stop Israel from carrying out increasingly open policies for ethnic cleansing. If anything, it will enable these policies. The only thing that will stop Israel is international pressure (which is why I'm in the IPSC).

Also, you should know that Gaza is still occupied territory. The fact that the settlers moved out didn't affect anything, except perhaps enable Israel to bomb it with more abandon and cut it off entirely. Jeff Halper of ICAHD uses the analogy of prisons to describe Gaza, and has pointed out that in any prison the prison guards only control a tiny amount of the territory. But it's the most important part - the perimeter and the guardtowers. Same as in Gaza.

by Dave Thu Jun 14, 2007 13:44

If any of you care about the Palestinian people you must be outraged that Hamas is wiping out Fatah and simply replace Israeli occupation and Fatah corruptions and nationalism with Islamic extremists fundementalism?

by redjade Sat Jun 16, 2007 14:10

If there ever was a time for palestine solidarity activists to send a clear message of support for a democratic secular palestinian state, this is that time.

IPSC and others need to speak loudly not just against the Hamas/Fatah civil war but against Hamas taking over by armed force and it speak just as loudly for a democratic secular palestinian state.

The silence is deafening.

in solidarity with this? no thanks.

by redjade Sun Jun 17, 2007 17:25

''...pictures from the press conference in Baddawi refugee camp about the plight of Palestinians in Lebanon. It was hosted by Human Rights Watch and Palestinian Association for Human Rights. Caoimhe Butterly of Human Rights Watch is holding up pictures of a 16-year old Palestinian boy who was pulled off a bus, interogated for 4 days, and beaten by the Lebanese Army. He was beaten before being questioned.''

more at
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2007/06/rania-m.html

by Absalom Tue Jun 19, 2007 18:04

On June 14, a school administered by the Sisters of the Holy Rosary was demolished in the Gaza Strip. In the chapel adjoining the sisters’ convent, the crucifix and a statue of Christ were broken and prayer books burned.

Father Manuel Mussallam, the only Catholic priest currently living in Gaza, denounced the sacking of the school and convent, describing it to AsiaNews as a "barbaric act."

A spokesman for Hamas said that the group was not responsible. Salah Bardawil said: "The Christians are our brothers in Gaza and everywhere, and we will protect their holy places and school, as we do our Islamic schools."

by Dante Alighieri @ the foot of mount purgatory Tue Jun 19, 2007 19:20

They've a wonderful website http://www.holyrosarymissionarysisters.org/ their order is unusual in that it was begun by a man Joseph Shanahan C.S.Sp. who was archbishop of Abila Lysaniae "the See" of southern Nigeria from 1920 to 1931 whence I suppose he watched Irish independence, partition and civil war. He set up the group in 1924 to assist in evangelisation. It's curious to see them enter our website with stories of broken relics in Gaza & even more curious to see that story slanted by Hamas apologetics. Recently I noted that Gerry Adams off doing his man of peace prosleytisation a mission which iwe remember is denied his Basque counterpart for the moment called for a "two state solution". I'm sure the sisters of the holy rosary don't do state solutions. No catholic, kathurlick, christian, jew or muslim really can & remain true to their faith- can they? But since I'm not one of those I'd just like to suggest we' ve now reached the stage where we ought to talk of a three state solution or a three way strand mystery thing. . I know that won't bring back the nuns their converts or crucifixes or sway the men of violence from their cheap ammunition. But the thread demands a little bit of nudging back in the right direction... doesn't it? IT's like this - Hamas are obliged by the Holy Quran and Hadith to say Xians are their brothers but when any religious group meddles with statecraft and uses arms to do so - it is quite indecent to respect one obligation & ignore another.
What are good muslims and christians to think? naturally to forgive whomever it was who broke the relic if of course the relic is not to be considered blasphemous idolatory. Turn the other cheek? Spin some politics and keep that religiosity to the right of hypocrisy.

No actual nuns were harmed in the writing of this comment. But in the real world they are but in demographic terms which is quite sustainable as long as vocations keep up. We didn't need a Hamas press statement to pass judgement on this -did we?

The first group of missionary sisters leaving Killeshandra, Jan 1928

by Ifima Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:26 ifima at hotmail dot com

Strange to see how many hate-contorted faces turned up at the protest representative of the "new" faces of Ireland. To think what they'll be insisting on in ten years time. We'll need our own security fence by then by all appearances.

by Are you a racist Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:36

Ifima seems to take offence at what is described as "the hate contorted faces" of the new Irish. Is this overt racism?

(1) Surely many of the people in the pictures and on demos of this nature are here not because they want to be but because they are refugees who have feld persecution in their own lands.

(2) As a "democracy", is it not true that everyone is allowed to freedom of speech, and demonstration

What would Ifima say to seeing the thousands of Irish march for the legalisation of the Irish in the US. Should the US have a security barrier/fence, are these hate contorted faces of the "new americans"

Indeed would anyone not have hate and anger and sadness in their faces if they had been drivern from their homes and their lands

Ifima dont try and mask your racism