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Lockdown Skeptics >>

British Police used "banned bullets" in July "shoot to kill"

category international | crime and justice | other press author Wednesday November 16, 2005 15:42author by iosaf Report this post to the editors

Latest twist in the killing of De Menezes on July 22 in london at Kennington tube station.

The Daily Telegraph has revealed that the police who killed Jean Charles de Menezes used _illegal_ "dum dum" bullets.

["Modern hollow point bullets are descendants of the expanding "dum dum" ammunition created by the British in an arsenal of the same name near Calcutta, in India, at the end of the 19th century and outlawed under the Hague Declaration of 1899.

The bullets, which expand and splinter on impact, were available to officers taking part in Operation Kratos, the national police drive against suspected suicide bombers which has been described as a "shoot to kill" policy."]

article :-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/16/nmenez16.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/11/16/ixportaltop.html
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2251712005

related news, Ian Blair the British Police chief has said he wants a public debate on the shoot to kill policy.
http://www.channel4.com/news/content/news-storypage.jsp?id=1242224
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2249412005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4441112.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,16518,1643599,00.html

And CofE bishop of southwark (south london) Tom Butler has defended shoot to kill on BBC radio 4.describing such killings as a lesser of two evils. "Sometimes we have to judge between two things that are wrong to produce the best result,"
...
"Obviously, killing somebody is never a right thing to do, but if it prevents many other people being killed, it may be the only thing to do."
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15404719.htm

author by right wingpublication date Wed Nov 16, 2005 16:07author email therightwing at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

my heart bleeds for all potential terrorists who may come into contact with 'illega' bullets. I am just wondering, did the suicide bombers of 7/7 use bombs of the legal or illegal kind. I dare to think they were the latter.....we wouldn't want left wing islamo-fascists spewing onto the streets in protest.

Lets end PC nonsense.

author by boomspublication date Wed Nov 16, 2005 17:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

John Charles de Meneses wasn't a terrorist, potential or otherwise.

author by Joe Publicpublication date Wed Nov 16, 2005 23:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

True he was not a terrorist however the point made is still valid.

Illegal or not, the bullet is designed and used to kill so really what difference does it make?

author by iosafpublication date Thu Nov 17, 2005 13:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It begins with a little copper joke -

"Good evening. What kind of police service do we want? Let me begin with a story.

"A riot is going on. Bottles, bricks and petrol bombs are raining down but the line of police officers is standing firm. Suddenly, one turns and runs. The young man runs and runs and then collides with a tall dark figure. Without looking up, he says, 'I am sorry, Sarge. I just couldn't take it any longer.'

"A voice says, 'This isn't your sergeant, son, this is the Commissioner.' 'Ah', says the lad, 'I am so sorry. I didn't know I had run back that far.'"

(I first asked for Ian Blair's resignation in late July on imc uk. No one pays attention obviously.)

Related Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2763,1643995,00.html
author by Ali H.publication date Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

is that dum-dum bullets are illegal under the Hague declaration.

The police use illegal bullets, and illegal methods to murder an innocent man in cold blood with no intelligence information to back up their decision and then try to smear him to cover for their own incompetence .... geddit?

Perhaps if he had been shot with fewer conventional bullets he might have survived.

The same goes for terrorists.

If the suspects incapacitated by tazers in the UK had been killed using dum-dum bullets they would not have been interrogated by the police yielding information which prevented further attacks.

author by iosafpublication date Sun Jun 04, 2006 17:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Its front page on today's "Observer" newspaper in the UK (the "observer is the Sunday version of "the Guardian")
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1789936....html

They also have a special report on the de Menezes shooting
http://www.guardian.co.uk/menezes/0,,1691452,00.html

and the index of all their coverage
http://www.guardian.co.uk/menezes/archive/0,,1691453,00....html

I first wrote calling for his resignation on imc uk the 25th of July
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/world/2005/07/31....html

Menezes was shot on the 22nd of July, and it really is worth looking at the record on imc uk and imc ireland at that time. http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71065
Ian Blair & the "Cobra comittee" deliberately misled the public, about everything, what Menenzes looked like, how he acted, what he was wearing, even how many times he was shot.

It remains to be seen if the British establishment will go ahead with these cases, to prosecute the chief of London's police, especially if his surname is "Blair" really would be an "apalling vista" for them. But they're used to that sort of thing.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71788

Its not the first time this idea of prosecuting the police has been suggested -
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71611

There have naturally been protests, memorials &c., in the UK, in Ireland and in Brazil.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71246
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71131

author by ROOSTERpublication date Mon Jun 05, 2006 06:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Police are exempt from the Hague convention, they use hollow point rounds in public places so the round does not pass through the targets bosy and kill an innocent bystander, how many times was de menezes shot 7?? 8?? times in a crowded tube train and how many other people got injured

ZERO!!

If the rounds being used had Full Metal Jackets they would have went through de menezes and killed people behind him either directly or by ricochet.

author by MichaelY - iawmpublication date Mon Jun 05, 2006 13:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Indymedia is a wonderful medium for communication and, at times, it plays an educational role as well. Studying carefully ROOSTER's neat message above, I had to rethink a number of issues:
One, imagine a pumped up armed cop, probably on uppers, with his weapon full of hollow bullets. He thinks: "I must shoot the suspect, here, shoot to kill, but I must be careful not to accidentally injure or maim any "innocent bystanders".....thank God my bullets are hollow and not of the FMJ type.
Two, he looks foreign,he is big, he is carrying a bag....f@@@ him.....one, two, three....and my mates join me.....six, seven, eight....Jesus, where is four and five? Aha, mate number two....what a team!! Justice done!
Three: It is patently obvious that the three cops' main concern was to provide and promote British justice...to protect the innocent and to punish the guilty.
Four: Inhumanity and barbarism usually go together with ignorance and a lack of basic brain functions - occasionally reflected in incapacity to even spell simple words.
Five: A rooster in the Chiness zodiac isn't shifty or cagey and has no interest in hiding behind a facade. He is the proverbial open book, telling the truth and keeping their word. It figures!

author by anonpublication date Mon Jun 05, 2006 13:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

De menezes was an innocent bystander

author by roosterpublication date Tue Jun 06, 2006 00:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Dear MichaelY thank you for the compliments regarding my post, I do try! Although if I was to be shot I would prefer a solid round rather than a hollow point, militant republicans take note!!

As for Anon, of course de menezes was an innocent by stander can you name me someone at the moment who disputes this????

author by anonpublication date Tue Jun 06, 2006 17:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You said by using hollow points it prevented any 'innocent bystanders' from being shot at the same time as a target, de Menezes was both that target and an innocent bystander at the same time.

The Police are exempt from the Hague convention, they use hollow point rounds in public places so the round does not pass through the targets bosy and kill an innocent bystander, how many times was de menezes shot 7?? 8?? times in a crowded tube train and how many other people got injured

ZERO!!

If the rounds being used had Full Metal Jackets they would have went through de menezes and killed people behind him either directly or by ricochet.

author by roosterpublication date Tue Jun 06, 2006 22:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

de menezes WAS the target, if he was considered to be innocent then he wouldn't have been shot in the first place!!

author by Barrypublication date Wed Jun 07, 2006 03:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

""If the rounds being used had Full Metal Jackets they would have went through de menezes and killed people behind him either directly or by ricochet.""

not likely as he was pinned to the ground and they were pumped into the back of his head .

author by roosterpublication date Wed Jun 07, 2006 05:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

and whats the floor made off?

Steel plate, a round could easily have bounced off!!

your not really suggesting that the police will know in advance in what position the targets are going to be in??

author by anonpublication date Wed Jun 07, 2006 06:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

at what point did this guy become their target was it when he _didn't_ leave the _actual apartment_ they were surveying?

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