Twelfth marred by hatred

by jkjkadsd Tue Jul 20, 2004 01:50

are you not being sectarian?

by Puzzled Southerner Tue Jul 20, 2004 03:33

Still, if people living in a certain street don't want a parade coming down their road then they have a right to object to it and get it stopped.

That's where tolerance is needed.

by epiphany jones Tue Jul 20, 2004 09:23

The 12th of July is all about religious and political triumphalism. The Orangemen are a laughing stock in most civilised countries. They should embrace the 21st century and celebrate something more constructive...........such as the good friday agreement maybe.

by Father Jack Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:03

If they want to be like the British they should start behaving like modern British people rather than caricatures of a 19th Century stereotype with their black bowlers etc. How many modern English, Scotish, and Welsh people do you see carrying on like that?
Time for them to get a life, instead of trying to make life unpleasant for their neighbours. Remember them? - neighbours. I thought that in Christian tradition that meant all of humanity.

by bonita ventura Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14

how can any apparently sane person publish the above view and not take into account the years of apartheid, brutality and bigotry catholics have suffered at the hands of orangemen?

by Joe Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:39

The portrayal of the Orange parades as being primarly cultural rather than political and sectarian can only be convincing to those who know nothing of the history of the Orange Order. It's a claim invented for outsiders any loyalist, unionist or republican knows full well the nature of the OO.

It arose in the build up to the 1798 rebellion as an armed death squad ('peep o day boys') whose specific role was to prevent protestants and catholics making common cause. Something missed from the comments above is that it is not simply an anti-catholic institution but an anti-radical one.

"..Orange Order was born in Armagh in 1795 as part of an armed terror campaign to deny full citizenship rights to Catholics. This was in the context of struggles between landlords and tenants in the area of which the Anglican Archbishop of Armagh said "the worst of this is that it stands to unite Protestant and Papist, and whenever that happens, good-bye to the English interest in Ireland". Specifically the penal laws forbade Catholics from bearing arms, but radical (and mostly Protestant) volunteer companies in the 1780's had been recruiting and arming Catholics with the "the full support of a radical section of Protestant political opinion"

From the start and through its history its events have been marked by riots and murder
"Right from the start the parades have been accompanied by violence as they attempt to force their way through areas where they are not wanted. The first parades of 1796 saw one fatality, but in 1797 14 were killed during violence at an Orange parade in Stewartstown. In 1813 an Orange parade through one of the first areas of Belfast identified as 'Catholic' saw four more deaths.

The town of Portadown has long been a hot bed of 'contentious' parades, banned marches took place there in 1825 and 1827. In 1835 the Portadown marches claimed their first victim, Hugh Donnelly, a Catholic from Drumcree. Armagh Magistrate, William Hancock, (a Protestant), said:

"For some time past the peaceable inhabitants of the parish of Drumcree have been insulted and outraged by large bodies of Orangemen parading the highways, playing party tunes, firing shots, and using the most opprobrious epithets they could invent ... a body of Orangemen marched through the town and proceeded to Drumcree church, passing by the Catholic chapel though it was a considerable distance out of their way."

Unfortunately the Orange Order remains very succesful in its goal, to raise sectarian tensions and keep working class catholics and protestants at each others throats. To that extent it wants the bans and the confrontation because it is what it recruits out of (membership shot up during 'Drumcree 1'). Which is not to say that it should not be opposed but does suggest the need for ways to oppose it that undermine its central purpose rather than re-inforce it.

Loads more info at the link below.

by on-looker Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:45

Orangeism has a long a tradition, wouldnt change rather than extinction be the preferred option of tolerant friendly people?

More amazing transformations have happened (South Africa etc.).

by Joe Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:06

I could see a situation where over time the OO could become as politically relevant as Morris dancers. Then maybe we'd all get the occasional laugh out of watching the odd fellows in the funny costumes pass by once a year. But for this to happens its political program as outlined above has to first be defeated.

Mind you even then it would still be pretty objectionable in the same sense that a golf club that refused to allow jews or muslims to join would be objectionable.

by Eoin Dubsky Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:20

Thanks for posting that comment above, and the link to further WSM articles about the OO and the North. I never knew when the Orange Order started, I guess I thought it was there since immediately after the Battle of the Boyne. Cheers again!

by nordie Tue Jul 20, 2004 15:01

I've heard it said that the Orangemen should be allowed to pass through these areas only after the residents have erected very large loud hailers all along the route which would pump out the most ridiculous canned laughter imaginable while the people could then come out and point and mock at the absurd procession of middle aged bigots who like to dress up in comedy garb for kicks. It could become a tourism phenomena.

by Rooster Tue Jul 20, 2004 22:44

MS
by bonita ventura Tuesday, Jul 20 2004, 10:14am
how can any apparently sane person publish the above view and not take into account the years of apartheid, brutality and bigotry catholics have suffered at the hands of orangemen?

MS, when was the last time you were in NI?

by tan pauper Wed Jul 21, 2004 00:14

Other foreigners have the common decency good manners and good taste, not to parade about the place insulting the natives, as we have seen in the past drunken Orange supporters celebrating the sectarian massacre at Sean Grahams bookies, the last time they were allowed to walk down the Ormeau road.

Other foreigners know how to behave themselves, not goad, provoke and insult other cultures for fun and to make themselves feel special.

by Joe Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:44

I see Rooster has managed to bring out a nasty catholic nationalist sectarian posting as "tan pauper". Interesting that both sets of bigots see 'foreigner' as a major insult!

by red boy Wed Jul 21, 2004 14:08

It is an absolute disgrace that the orange order is aloud March down catholic streets. These guys are a bunch of outdated fascists no women aloud no Catholics aloud no gays aloud come to think about it the only way you can join is if you fit the description of white male protestant, what a bunch of fascists. I think its time the orange order was outlawed and declared a terrorist organisation every time they try and march in a catholic area there is trouble. Will they not realise that they do not have the right to march streets where they are not welcomed by the residents why don’t they just fuck off and march back up the shit hole they came out of. Bastards

by rooster Tue Jul 27, 2004 14:53

no women aloud no Catholics aloud no gays aloud

the orange order has a womans section, catholics are'nt allowed (correct spelling) because its A PROTESTANT organisation and gays are'nt allowed because the bible says to be gay is to be sinful, I'm sure catholic bibles say the same?

by ned Mon Sep 13, 2004 01:36

in our parish the local orange order have been a credit to their community and if only we had mor young men like this the country would not be in such a state!

by KilkennyGal - Sexy smart women of the World Sat Nov 22, 2008 21:48

www.scottsowerby.net

Finally, King James II gets some kind of vindication.

by Hubris Sat Nov 22, 2008 22:21

It is an absolute disgrace that the orange order is aloud March down catholic streets.

Would quiet marches by the O.O. down catholic streets be allowed? :)

by Michael Hogan Sat Nov 22, 2008 23:08

History records that Billy was fighting Jimmy on the orders of the Pope. That although himself (Billy) was a Protestant, he was a member of the Royal Dutch Household (a Catholic enclave) so was entitled to a protection.
So on his personal bodyguard was 25,000 Catholic troops of the Royal Household.

Therefore Catholic folks of Dutch origin ought to be allowed into the O.O. if they so desire.

by truth Wed Feb 25, 2009 14:20

all you bible thumpers, king billy was gay.