OscailtWas ICTU behind the pensions levy?Report from the national meeting of public sector workers on Saturday
Breaking news: Italian MP, Sgarbi denounces the Statistical Fraud on COVID-19. The speech of the Member of Parliament Vittorio Sgarbi in the session of the Italian Camera, Meeting no. 331 of Friday 24, April, 2020. Vittorio Sgarbi, denounces the closure of 60% of the businesses for 25,000 COVID-19 Deaths, of which the National Institute of Health says 96.3% died NOT of COVID-19 but of other pathologies. That means only 925 have died of the virus. 24,075 have died of other things.2009-02-17T11:54:33+00:00Indymedia Irelandimc-ireland@lists.indymedia.iehttp://www.indymedia.ie/atomfullposts?story_id=91139http://www.indymedia.ie/graphics/feedlogo.gifDo some basic research for simple truths.......http://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2457872009-02-17T11:54:33+00:00WorkerDont be so ridiculous Andrew.
A bit of basic research would quickly undermine ...Dont be so ridiculous Andrew. <br />
<br />
A bit of basic research would quickly undermine your conspiracy argument. ICTU are on record from December as arguing that the government cannot cut wages as it would be illegal and end up in the courts (I dont have time to go into the detail now). They then stated that the only way the government could reduce the public sector wage bill was through some form of pensions contribution. They were not advocating this, simply stating a legal fact, which the government knew already. <br />
<br />
Now, if ICTU are repsonsible for the pensions levey by stating a fact then so be it. But, most rational people would conclude that stating the obvious is not the same thing as proposing a policy. Your article indicates the latter which is completely & categorically false. ICTU have been arguying for some time that senior, well renumerated public servants (i.e. Brendan Drumm) should contribute more to his well-oiled pension. I dont think many tax-payers would disagree with this. <br />
<br />
Your suspicion is based upon one or two voices at a public meeting, which is hardly the basis for informed judgement. I was at a public meeting some weeks ago where many people argued that those behind the 911 conspiracy are also behind the current financial crisis. Should I believe them? <br />
<br />
Your argument is based upopn a neo-conservative truth, i.e. unknown knowns that could potentially be true but most likely not, i.e. factual untruths. I expect more from the intellectual voice of the WSM. Quick responsehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2457882009-02-17T12:07:27+00:00AndrewA quick but anonymous response, the anonymous nature of it makes the demand for ...A quick but anonymous response, the anonymous nature of it makes the demand for a more factual basis for the original claim a little odd. <br />
<br />
I'm reporting here on what was said by a member of the CPSU executive to 100+ fellow trade unionists from a range of branch committees. It's not really the equivalent of what someone might have said at some 911 meeting you were at, indeed that is a curious comparison for you to draw even if I can see why it is a useful spin for you to put on it. This story is in widespread circulation at branch level and at that meeting no one thought it even odd.<br />
<br />
Obviously ICTU need to clarify what exactly went on.Fiddling while Rome burnshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2457942009-02-17T13:37:26+00:00PSWWhile the public sector unions quibble over the levy thousands of private sector...While the public sector unions quibble over the levy thousands of private sector workers are losing their jobs.<br />
<br />
At least they'll see a return in the future on the levy they are paying in the form of a defined-benefits pension!<br />
<br />
Judging by Channel 4s Dispatches program last night I'd say that our public sector workers are simply not geared up for the wave of unemployment either and it will mean that those unfortunate private sector workers will not get their unemployment benefit or help to find a new job, or training etc. in a timely manner.<br />
<br />
This will only serve to further deepen the crisis for the private sector workers which the public sector sits pretty with its restrictive work-practices, gross overpayment and fat pensions with defined benefits.Nonsensicalhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2457962009-02-17T13:48:58+00:00AndrewYour right that huge numbers of private sector workers are being made unemployed...Your right that huge numbers of private sector workers are being made unemployed. Actually there are also large enough numbers of public sector workers in some sectors like education being made unemployed. The 'job for life' thing is a myth for tens of thousands who are on contracts and large numbers of contracts have not been renewed.<br />
<br />
That aside your repeating a mantra those who are attacking workers keep coming out with but it doesn't make any sense. How exactly is a workers on the dole benefited by a cut in the pension levy? She doesn't get a job as a result. Indeed cuts in the public sector are the main reason why there are long ques at the dole offices, there are very few new public sector workers in that area to deal with a work load that has doubled in a year (even leaving aside the extra work of new claims). <br />
<br />
It also makes no sense when you consider that few of us are automised workers who do nothing but work-consume-sleep. Many private sector workers have family members in the public sector. If your in a relationship with someone in the public sector, you get laid off then their pay cut is going to make it a good deal harder for you to get by.<br />
<br />
Workers (regardless of whether they or public or private sector) have a common interest in ensuring that the crisis is paid for by the top 1% who made all the wealth in the celtic tiger years. They didn't want to share that wealth then, why the hell should we cover their losses, in particular when their personal wealth is several times the projected shortfall and in particular when many of them are wealthy as a result of the corrupt property speculation and the regulation lite banking system.PSW or PSWhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2458072009-02-17T15:18:01+00:00AndrewYou do realise that PSW stands for both Public Sector Worker and Private Sector ...You do realise that PSW stands for both Public Sector Worker and Private Sector Worker. Likewise when you look at the facts behind the myths being put out you realise that the conditions of many workers in both sectors are actually similar, certainly a lot more similar than the comparison of either with the top 1%. On the other hand the voices on the radio and those that own the papers are very often in that top 1% - I'd question their agenda in setting up the PSW v PSW division that you seem keen to follow,ICTUhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2458162009-02-17T19:44:23+00:00AragonThe proof is in the pudding. If ICTU are not backing this pension levy then wher...The proof is in the pudding. If ICTU are not backing this pension levy then where the hell are they? Where was their outrage and why are they doing NOTHING concrete to challenge the levy and other things? If they were serious we'd know all about it by now. Personally, I believe we are looking at a well rehearsed and choreographed pantomime. <br />
<br />
Enough of these stupid, pointless Saturday demonstrations that accomplish nothing - except to dissipate anger and mollify people. These union leaders turn up and give rousing speeches full of rhetoric but they DO nothing. Ironyhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2458222009-02-17T20:46:02+00:00BillI dont believe that ICTU proposed the pension levy for one minute. I am no suppo...I dont believe that ICTU proposed the pension levy for one minute. I am no supporter of the union leadership but claiming they proposed the levy will only divide workers not unite them. Not much workers solidarity in lies about trade union officials is there?A Sticking Plaster....http://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2458262009-02-17T22:13:03+00:00Yawn.....or a cure? While it's important for the uninformed to get as much facts about .....or a cure? While it's important for the uninformed to get as much facts about all this as possible, it's vitally important that the bottom line of this is realised. If the system (capitalism) is not changed, and these crooks are not thrown in jail (not as scapegoats by the way), we will have a lot of unhappy faces and unhappy homes (and homeless) for many years to come. The goal should be to abolish the system, the tactics from here on in are crucial if any major gains are to be made from this by the real left (whoever they are) and the workers class people in Ireland.<br />
A huge part of that factual information is the conspiracy by the right wing bureaucracy in the trade union movement in all of this, and partnership is part of that conspiracy. I will not be marching behind O' Connor or Beggs and the like. I will be there though. The revolutionary left should start their own march, from Larkins statue, he would have a smile on his face.<br />
<br />
Expect a huge turout to the top of the hill, the rattling of closed gates, and the disgruntled walk home or to the bar and much thumping of tables and maybe drown again.<br />
<br />
There will be a current of hot southerly air wafting though Dublin on Saturday afternoon 21 February, but expect it to get quite chilly in the evening. They've had an unfair crack of the whip for far too long and we are hurting like never before. It's time for a real change, not tweedle dee (Enda Story) or tweedle doh (Eamonn Right).<br />
<br />
Bring your placards and don't forget your anger.<br />
<br />
As the poster on the events page says, the resolution is revolution.<br />
<br />
Roll on and good luck......<br />
<br />
Dans The Manhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2458702009-02-18T16:42:17+00:00Jerry CorneliusThe Pension Levy was Dan Murphys idea. This was confirmed to me today by an offi...The Pension Levy was Dan Murphys idea. This was confirmed to me today by an official of the CPSU. Its hardly suprising given Dan Murphys circular which tried to frighten people about IMF intervention.<br />
<br />
Dan Murphy is retiring on 30 April, so fittingly this year we will be able celebrate a Mayday free of his malign presence. But Dan seems intent on dealing one last blow to public sector workers before he departs.How much money and how many jobs has MoneyBeggs got.http://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2458752009-02-18T19:31:18+00:00Hugh MurphyIt's about time people here realise that ICTU is only the employers and governme...It's about time people here realise that ICTU is only the employers and government's Policemen. They will do anything so not to upset the sweetheart deal they have with capitalism. MoneyBeggs has at least two Directorships that we know about. The Central Band and Aer Lingus. Workers are entitled to ask, how much is he being paid and how many more directorships has he got - and that includes everyone on ICTU who claims to be a Trade Unionist.<br />
<br />
They cannot serve two masters. Either they're Trade Unionists or they're employers. If offered a choice they'll go with the money.<br />
<br />
I <br />
<br />
conspiracyhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2459052009-02-19T12:53:49+00:00JasonAs much as I despise ICTU croonies- its hardly the time with Saturday's protest ...As much as I despise ICTU croonies- its hardly the time with Saturday's protest to be getting into conspiracy theories and possibly undermining saturday's protest. Think the story is badly timed and a bit irresponsibleJasonhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2459082009-02-19T13:29:11+00:00Jerry CorneliusHow is it irresponsible? A rumout is circulating, why should it not be reported?...How is it irresponsible? A rumout is circulating, why should it not be reported? I was told by a senior offical of the CPSU that Dan Murphy was behind the idea of the Pension Levy. I believe it.<br />
<br />
Dan Murphy has always been the Ememy Within. He has always sabotaged action designed to improve the living standards of public sector workers. Now hes trying to get our pay cut!<br />
<br />
The author of this piece and the other critics of the ICTU leadership including myself are working to build Saturdays demo and further action. But we won't acheive that by being soft on the union burocracy.<br />
<br />
Those union leaders who genuinely oppose the pension levy should openly name Dan Murphy and Peter Mc Loone as masterminds behind the levy.a history of collaborationhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2459212009-02-19T17:38:05+00:00puisinWhether ICTU and its affiliated unions were first to bring up the so-called pens...Whether ICTU and its affiliated unions were first to bring up the so-called pension levy is somewhat beside the point although it does sound like the type of camouflage ICTU might come up with.<br />
<br />
The real problem is that they entered talks with agreement on a framework document, which was based on achieving 2 billion in cuts in the public sector. The cuts themselves weren't in contention. The only issue in contention was calculating how the cuts would be presented and not the principle in itself. Beggs and O Connor have made this clear on numerous occasions since.<br />
<br />
The big disappointment was that the unions were able to participate in this sleazy class collaboration in full view with press conferences and extensive media coverage without any evident opposition from the left. <br />
<br />
The unions openly declare that workers have to take the blame for capitalism's worse crisis in most people’s memory and they get away with it. A sad reflection of the effect that 22 years of institutionalised collaboration through partnership has had on political consciousness. <br />
<br />
The union bureaucracy use the demonstration planned for Saturday and beyond as pressure for a more palatable format for cuts, still making workers pay. The sheer depth of the crisis makes it imperative to end the collaboration but it also creates more opportunities to oppose collaboration, if we can get our act together and clearly spell out the criminal role of ICTU and the union leaderships.build an alternative to ICTU's class collaborationismhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2459382009-02-19T22:43:31+00:00Alan Davispuisin has got it spot on.
Whenever I read or hear TU leaders giving their opin...puisin has got it spot on.<br />
<br />
Whenever I read or hear TU leaders giving their opinions on the way forward they always accept that working people are going to have to take pain. They just say they want it to be "fairer" with some signs that the bosses and politicians are making some concessions as well - concessions which will be only token and will not touch profits or the sacrosanct negligible corporation tax.<br />
<br />
But the TU leader's real concern is over getting their feet back under the negotiating table of "Social Partnership" which is why they are pushing their new "Pact for Stabilisation, Social Solidarity and Economic Renewal" based on the Framework Agreement of January 28 - a document which states that "the Government and Social Partners commit to working together under the Pact to support the further adjustments required to reduce the General Government Deficit below 3% over the remainder of the five year period."<br />
<br />
A couple of quotes from ICTU's "10 point programme" make it clear where they are coming from:<br />
<br />
<BLOCKQUOTE>"We acknowledge there is a crisis in the public finances.Government must return to the Framework Agreement of January 28.This recognised the necessity for radical measures to bring the public finances under control, on the basis of all sides contributing in accordance with their ability to do so. Until that happens there can be no sustainable plan for national recovery."<br />
<br />
"Workers did not create the problem, but will contribute to resolving it - as long as the wealthy also contribute. The problem with the course currently being pursued by Government and employers’ organisations is that the weakest suffer, while the wealthy contribute nothing."</BLOCKQUOTE><br />
<br />
If the working class in Ireland is to get organised to be able to carry out the militant struggle required to defend ourselves from the attacks of the bosses, that are only going to increase as the economic crisis extends and deepens, one of the things we are going to have to be clear and open about is the treacherous role of the TU leaders and our opposition to any form of class collaboration and talk of common interest across the class line.Union Posthttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2459592009-02-20T10:49:35+00:00WorkerFor those more interested in real workers-issues rather than theoretical romanti...For those more interested in real workers-issues rather than theoretical romanticising, this is a link to ICTU's 'Union Post'.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/union_post_web_32.pdf" title="http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/union_post_web_32.pdf">http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/union_post_web_32.pdf</a><br />
<br />
What Union Post tells ushttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/91139#comment2460032009-02-20T23:53:12+00:00Alan DavisI too would recommend reading the special issue of Union Post - it is where I go...I too would recommend reading the special issue of Union Post - it is where I got my quotes from. The time line article is quite a good retrospective of how things have developed to the point they are now and there is other information about worker's struggles from around Ireland that I found quite useful. <br />
<br />
But in terms of understanding the role of the TU leaders in regard to their strategy of coming to a "fairer" deal with the bosses, I would particularly refer people to pages 8 & 9 where they reprint the 28 January agreement between the TU leaders and the bosses (and their govt) which is proposed as the way forward. Everyone should judge it for themselves. <br />
<br />
As a side point I would argue that discussing this proposal, and militant class-struggle alternatives to it, is a very real issue for the workers' movement - there is nothing particularly "theoretical" about proposing an alternative to the TU leaders implicit acceptance of further attacks on working people, certainly I find very little that is romantic about those attacks..