OscailtHidden History discussionTranscript of Joe Duffy Liveline radio programme on Hidden History
Breaking news: Italian MP, Sgarbi denounces the Statistical Fraud on COVID-19. The speech of the Member of Parliament Vittorio Sgarbi in the session of the Italian Camera, Meeting no. 331 of Friday 24, April, 2020. Vittorio Sgarbi, denounces the closure of 60% of the businesses for 25,000 COVID-19 Deaths, of which the National Institute of Health says 96.3% died NOT of COVID-19 but of other pathologies. That means only 925 have died of the virus. 24,075 have died of other things.2007-11-09T21:36:49+00:00Indymedia Irelandimc-ireland@lists.indymedia.iehttp://www.indymedia.ie/atomfullposts?story_id=84979http://www.indymedia.ie/graphics/feedlogo.gifOrders to kill or maim?http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2119482007-11-09T21:36:49+00:00gameballGood man Nick.
But I'm still confused as to the court martial orders to the fir...Good man Nick.<br />
<br />
But I'm still confused as to the court martial orders to the firing squad. Were they to:<br />
1. Kill the brothers<br />
2. Mortally wound them<br />
3. Wound them as a warning.<br />
<br />
If it was 1., and they were still alive, the officer would 'finish them off' with a shot to the head. Using a 303 at close range, the bullets would pass through, and so squads had to aim at the chest. <br />
<br />
But the officer and the squad left them wounded. I don't know of any other such 'partial execution' in the 1919-21 war. Can someone say if this was what HQ ordered, or were the squad intimidating the rest of the family who had to watch? Were they wounding the men deliberately, giving them some slight chance to live? It seems very deliberate in the circumstances for six or eight men not to kill a man standing just yards away.Partial execution?http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2119752007-11-10T01:12:14+00:00Nick FolleyGameball -
I'm still researching up on more specifics, myself. It is possible t...Gameball -<br />
<br />
I'm still researching up on more specifics, myself. It is possible that the execution squad were very inexperienced. Afterall, I gather Offaly was 'quieter' than most other areas of the country at the time, though two RIC constables had been shot on May 19th of the same year in Kinnity (and so, a little over a month before the Pearson shootings). IRA volunteers - apparently also young men themselves - who had little experience of killing might have found the actual task of shooting someone to be more exacting than they had anticipated. It is also hardly likely that the two Pearson boys - both fit young men - would have gone to their deaths quietly. There may have been a struggle, or last minute movement that resulted in the shots not hitting their targets in the intended areas. The medical reports indicated superficial wounds on the lower thighs, back etc., as well as the fatal wounds. Some of these may even have been caused by ricochets (the brothers were apparently put standing near a wall). A number of volunteers had shotguns, and if these were used superficial pellet wounds might have resulted from shots that did not hit directly. Again, I'm only saying this is a possibility. <br />
<br />
I too, wonder why a 'coup de grace' was not administered by an IRA officer. Again, it's possible the IRA volunteers thought the men were dead or nearly dead (the firing party fired a volley of shots) or they may even have been panicked and ran. The house behind them would have been burning strongly at this point, and the smoke and flames would certainly have risked attracting the attention of the British forces or at least someone who would inform the British forces of what was happening. <br />
<br />
It's just a possibility, but my guess is that the execution party was not very experienced in actual killing and botched it and perhaps panicked. They had been ordered to kill all four Pearson males. An experienced team of IRA men might have occupied the house, taken the family hostage and awaited the return of the remaining men, thereby killing them all and fulfilling their orders to the letter - rather than just arriving, killing whatever Pearson men on their list happened to be there before taking off again. Compare this with the action of an experienced solider like Tom Barry in Cork when he occupied Burgatia House with his column. <br />
<br />
I guess more research will shed yet further light on this in due course.Orders to killhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2119812007-11-10T09:44:43+00:00gameballThanks again. So we can say they disobeyed orders; "executed" means only one thi...Thanks again. So we can say they disobeyed orders; "executed" means only one thing. The responsibility for the cruel aspects of the outcome (the slow deaths, the family nearby), and any sense of apology, lies directly with the officer in charge, not on the "people of Offaly". <br />
<br />
There is no point in anyone arguing that the matter was ultimately approved by area HQ, GHQ, the Dáil and the electorate of Offaly if the officer on the spot didn't carry out his orders. <br />
<br />
Had the squad only burnt down the house, it would hardly have come to our attention, would it?Lovely quakershttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2120352007-11-11T00:16:01+00:00S CahillVery amusing to read the presumptions of Quaker holiness by Joe Duffy.
One of t...Very amusing to read the presumptions of Quaker holiness by Joe Duffy.<br />
<br />
One of the most famous Quakers in politics was none other than Richard Nixon. A harmless ould Amish type if ever there was one!Shot in the groin for religious heresy - Harris uncover new evidencehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2120502007-11-11T11:19:05+00:00Barryremember ladies , aim for the bollocks !remember ladies , aim for the bollocks !Quakershttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2120622007-11-11T13:10:19+00:00ScepticS Cahill that is a devious and inaccurate remark about Nixon and Quakerism. He w...S Cahill that is a devious and inaccurate remark about Nixon and Quakerism. He was born thus but effectively abandoned the faith when he enlisted in the US Navy not long after Pearl Harbour. He firmly left his pacifism behind him with that. In later life he became a follower of more mainstream Protestantism with preacher friends like Billy Graham and Normal Vincent Peale. kettles and potshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2120692007-11-11T14:47:04+00:00anti looney tunesIn today's Sindo, Harris calls 'Blackass' to the Aubanes. But they both support ...In today's Sindo, Harris calls 'Blackass' to the Aubanes. But they both support the rapidly-crumbling Ahern regime. For how long?<br />
<a href="http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/and-another-thing-coolacrease-and-harris-we-should-have-guessedits-not-the-past-its-the-present/" title="http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/and-another-thing-coolacrease-and-harris-we-should-have-guessedits-not-the-past-its-the-present/">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/and-another...sent/</a>I don't buy the sectarian linehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2121462007-11-12T01:14:23+00:00Nickgameball: "Thanks again. So we can say they disobeyed orders; "executed" means o...gameball: "Thanks again. So we can say they disobeyed orders; "executed" means only one thing. The responsibility for the cruel aspects of the outcome (the slow deaths, the family nearby), and any sense of apology, lies directly with the officer in charge, not on the "people of Offaly"."<br />
<br />
Disobeyed orders? Perhaps yes, in the sense that they didn't kill everyone they had been instructed to kill. Perhaps also in not ensuring - as you mean (I suppose?) - that the victims were not actually dead when they left. <br />
<br />
But 1) had they stayed to wait for the other Pearsons to come back, the Pearsons might well have arrived with the military. They had gone by bicycle to Birr barracks to get military protection (acc. to William's later statement). I don't know if the IRA party was aware of this, but someone might have informed them. Thye may simply have decided it was too risky. <br />
<br />
2) had they arrived, seen not everyone was present, and gone away to wait a more opportune time, it would have been unlikely they'd get a second chance. The Pearson family would -having met them - no longer have had mere warnings and suspicions, but clear factual evidence of what was to happen. It is likely the Pearson house would have acquired a British military presence, or a trap would have been laid for any returning IRA party. Tom Barry again makes similar comments explaining his reasons for returning to burn out Burgatia house the same night he'd fought his way out of it against British soldiers. Not simpy bravado, but the house - now evidently marked - was sure to be reinforced with British military personnel. If it was to be done, it had to be done there and then in whatever way was possible. <br />
<br />
3) As for leaving them to die for so long, once again, the IRA party may have thought they were as good as dead, but I do agree the officer should have made sure of this before leaving. The Pearson sisters indicate the house was already burning before the men were shot, and that the IRA party had all disappeared within three minutes of the same. They obviously departed at speed. Like I said, they might have panicked. <br />
<br />
I don't believe the attack was sectarian, despite what Harris, Sammon et al claim. There are simply too many clashing facts, such as the large number of other protestant families in the area that were unmolested (and who also had big farms); William Pearson had - according to himself - his crops trampled by 'Shinners' in 1917 for growing crops under tillage order. By doing so he would have shown himself to be very clearly on the side of / in support of Britian's war effort at a time when the mood in the country was souring against same; his applications for compensation were made through the Southern Irish Loyalists' Relief Association, and he describes himself as 'well-known as a staunch loyalist who supported the crown at every opportunity' Of course his own words directly contradict Sammon's contention he was a peace-loving Amish-type, quite uninvolved in politics, perhaps not even voting. (Of course, in any case, one doesn't need to vote in order to wield political influence, or we wouldn't be having all these tribunals!). This is all in addition to the Pearson attack on the IRA tree-felling party, or the fact that IRA ranks and the Dail contained a number of Protestants, including from smaller sects such as Presbyterians. <br />
<br />
In the transcript above, Patricia Howard admonishes Pat Heaney to make a diffrentiation between Protestant and loyalist. It's advice Harris et al would do well to listen to. The IRA in Offaly at least seem to have been able to make this distinction. <br />
<br />
Harris and some others seem to be making it into a sectarian issue for reasons best known to themselves. Harris seems to want to be the self-appointed champion and spokesperson of small Protestant sects - though being a RC according to himself doesn't seem to disqualify him and equally it seems unclear if they are as eager to embrace him, as 'anti-looney tunes' link above notes. I'm not sure either how much he actually knows about the sects he chooses to champion: the Cooneyites preached hell-fire against other Protestant groups, as well as the 'Papishes'. Harris seems to lump them all together without distinction. <br />
<br />
If they do manage to make it into a sectarian issue in the minds of the ordinary person, the only result - I believe - will be a slight increase in the sum total of hatred and fear in this already overburdened world. Of course as a nation we WOULD be a lot easier to divide and conquer once again all set at each other's throats! Deliberately wounded?http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2121492007-11-12T01:26:53+00:00Nick"It seems very deliberate in the circumstances for six or eight men not to kill ..."It seems very deliberate in the circumstances for six or eight men not to kill a man standing just yards away"<br />
<br />
Though not unheard of. There was a case (not during the 1919-1921 War of Independence) where two men were shot a number of times at very close range with assault rifles (firing high velocity 7.62mm ammunition). Now you'd think both men would have been killed immediately, but though one died, the other actually survived (getting to a hospital on time seems to have been critical in that case, otherwise the second man would probably have died also). Thanks againhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2123762007-11-13T19:52:01+00:00gameballI go along with all that.
But if leaving them half-dead wasn't deliberate, and...I go along with all that. <br />
<br />
But if leaving them half-dead wasn't deliberate, and a group of 30 were panicky about the police arriving, then it sounds as if they weren't up to much as guerrilla fighters. Someone had been sent down from Dublin a few months before to retrain them.<br />
<br />
When cutting down the tree the group's scouts hadn't warned off, or noticed, the Pearsons, and had allowed the Ps to nearly kill one of them. The tree cutting squad didn't secure the area properly first. You'd think they would take a lot of trouble to do so if they already suspected the Ps were loyalist spies / loyalist activists and they were going to cut down a tree on the edge of the Ps' property.<br />
<br />
So I discount the theory that the Ps were known to be spies for the Crown forces.<br />
<br />
That in turn colours their testimonies about the actual shooting. Anyone who will take on the job of leading a firing squad knows that you feel the jugular afterwards and if necessary fire into the brain. That's his job, done in a second or two. And no-one would order a man to lead such a firing squad if he didn't know what to do if the condemned men lived, and wasn't prepared to finish it himself.<br />
<br />
I wonder if the motivation for the botched nature of the execution could have been partly from embarassment that the Ps had drawn the first blood, had made them seem amateurs. <br />
<br />
As it happened, Collins and Dev were happy to sign for that truce within a week or two. Par for the coursehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/84979#comment2124162007-11-14T07:25:00+00:00BemusedSo it can be said that the IRA in Offaly made a bags of it then? Could have been...So it can be said that the IRA in Offaly made a bags of it then? Could have been said about many things that followed the 1921 truce - the rapid influx of new volunteers subsequently called the 'trucileers', the handling of the treaty negotiations, the slide into civil war. And of course all the political inertia that occured between 1923 and the outbreak of conflict in Northern Ireland in 1969. Know the final line in that cult movie, Easy Rider? "We blew it baby. We blew it." Translated into hiberno dialect it says: We made a bags of it a chushla. We made a bags of it.