OscailtWhat Has Been Happening In Syria?Dirty tricks again
Breaking news: Italian MP, Sgarbi denounces the Statistical Fraud on COVID-19. The speech of the Member of Parliament Vittorio Sgarbi in the session of the Italian Camera, Meeting no. 331 of Friday 24, April, 2020. Vittorio Sgarbi, denounces the closure of 60% of the businesses for 25,000 COVID-19 Deaths, of which the National Institute of Health says 96.3% died NOT of COVID-19 but of other pathologies. That means only 925 have died of the virus. 24,075 have died of other things.2012-03-13T00:02:27+00:00Indymedia Irelandimc-ireland@lists.indymedia.iehttp://www.indymedia.ie/atomfullposts?story_id=101538http://www.indymedia.ie/graphics/feedlogo.gifgood article thankshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2884632012-03-13T00:02:27+00:00leftyIts good to get some of the other side to the relentless media propaganda on Syr...Its good to get some of the other side to the relentless media propaganda on Syria.<br />
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Al jazeera is no longer trustworthy as it's paymasters in Qatar and have reined it in totally. There have been a series of resignations there lately based on their imbalanced "coverage" of Libya and Syria<br />
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I watched that awful documentary "how to start a revolution" recently and I'm really annoyed by it. It's a total propaganda piece about that CIA funded rabid anticommunist rat gene sharp. He's the guy whose books are behind the patterns emerging in the uprisings starting in Kosovo and moving to Iran then on across north Africa and now they are hoping his ideas will take root in Syria, with Iran being the big prize.<br />
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you might find the following links quite interesting in relation to all this:<br />
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<a href="http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-to-start-wall-street-backed.html" title="http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-to-start-wall-street-backed.html">http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-to-start-....html</a><br />
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<a href="http://www.scu.edu.au/research/cpsj/human_rights/AHRP2008_Proc_Final.pdf" title="http://www.scu.edu.au/research/cpsj/human_rights/AHRP2008_Proc_Final.pdf">http://www.scu.edu.au/research/cpsj/human_rights/AHRP20...l.pdf</a><br />
(skip the first bit and read the submission on the Albert Einstien institute)<br />
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These links are a bit of an eye opener for anyone believing that the spate of "revolutions" happening across north africa are as innocent as they look.<br />
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please take the time to read and pass them on...Webster Tarpley? Seriously?http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2884742012-03-13T11:20:30+00:00JonahI think the article raises a number of good points, is very thoughtful in lookin...I think the article raises a number of good points, is very thoughtful in looking at the Syria situation in the context of the wider Middle East and US foreign policy intentions there, and is right to question some of the key narrative assumptions around the Arab Spring.<br />
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But to quote Webster Tarpley as a source? The same man who denies outright the existence of global warming, who propagates 9/11 conspiracy theories, whose connection to the real world could charitably be described as shaky?<br />
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Your own analysis is strong enough, using discredited and unreliable sources as back-up weakens your argument substantially.Al-Jazeera employees resign over the channel’s biased coveragehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2884752012-03-13T11:23:20+00:00Turas"Many employees at Al-Jazeera news channel are resigning over the Qatari-based n..."Many employees at Al-Jazeera news channel are resigning over the Qatari-based news network's biased coverage of events taking place in the Middle East. "<br />
<a href="http://www.presstv.ir/detail/231366.html" title="http://www.presstv.ir/detail/231366.html">http://www.presstv.ir/detail/231366.html</a>Deathshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2885022012-03-14T15:41:42+00:00Ex-CorkmanMedia reports now put deaths in Syria at 7,000 + but Human Rights Watch say it i...Media reports now put deaths in Syria at 7,000 + but Human Rights Watch say it is 3,000.<br />
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Assad is recklessly endangering and killing civilians by shelling urban areas, this cannot be supported. But it should be realised that the rebels are fighting to establish an Islamic Dictatorship. Leaders of the Syrian National Council have publicly declared their intention of ethnically cleansing Alawis and Christians from Syria. I haven't heard any Western leaders cindemning this.death toll...http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2885102012-03-14T18:57:27+00:00catholic workerI heard it was something like 8,000 lots of them being young children its awful....I heard it was something like 8,000 lots of them being young children its awful.They purposefully set up land mines at the borders where people were trying to escape all the bloodshed really very cruel.softly softlyhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2885142012-03-14T19:14:42+00:00opus diablosremember your sources are the ones gave us WMD and babies ripped from incubators...remember your sources are the ones gave us WMD and babies ripped from incubators to jusify previous invasions that have resulted in mayhem across the region from bug-splatted(dronespeak for remote assassination)Pakistan to chaotic Libya.<br />
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Turkey, Saudi. Jordan and Nato special forces are feeding arms for months, and money to draw Syrian army units onside for long-planned regime switch..we're in dirty territory, black-ops, false-flag and disinformation abound. <br />
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The Project for a New American Century(aka Pentagonia uber alles)is not shy about its intentions. They are overt and published, mainstream,....and rolling along towards Operation Peacock Throne Ressurection. <br />
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Disrupt, Contain, Extract.<br />
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Mission Accomplished...balkanised divisions for conquest.untrustworthy media coveragehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2885232012-03-14T20:55:54+00:00leftyal jazeera staff resignations over bias on syria coverage
http://rt.com/news/al-...al jazeera staff resignations over bias on syria coverage<br />
<a href="http://rt.com/news/al-jazeera-loses-staff-335/" title="http://rt.com/news/al-jazeera-loses-staff-335/">http://rt.com/news/al-jazeera-loses-staff-335/</a><br />
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deliberately staged videos about syria?<br />
<a href="http://rt.com/news/syria-information-wars-west-553/" title="http://rt.com/news/syria-information-wars-west-553/">http://rt.com/news/syria-information-wars-west-553/</a>no commenthttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2885732012-03-15T12:14:37+00:00opus diablos<br />
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<a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=29660" title="http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=29660">http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=29660</a><br />
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<a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=29660" title="http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=29660">http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=29660</a>arrest themhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2885782012-03-15T12:41:46+00:004hr_bonerthey should be put before a war tribunalthey should be put before a war tribunalSorry now but this is poorly argued.http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2887602012-03-26T02:32:27+00:00Dan Ó ClunaighSorry, but this is a pretty poorly written and very poorly argued, speculative a...Sorry, but this is a pretty poorly written and very poorly argued, speculative article fuelled more by anti-US, Israel, UK, France (...) rhetoric than anything else. A critical view of the western media is fine but would you not cast the same critical eye over the 'alternative' media you cite with such enthusiasm? Life is not black and white, it's technicolor, let's try to be open.<br />
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- The argument that NATO would fuel an entire war in Syria in order to control its airbases for an attack on Iran is fairly poor: why bother when they already have Iran surrounded with bases in Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan...?<br />
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- It seems you're arguing that the US has an interest in fundamentalist Islamist regimes including the Muslim Brotherhood controlling regimes like Egypt and Syria. What? While I agree that the Muslim Brotherhood could be seen as right-wing reactionaries, and their presence and popularity in Egypt is indeed worrying in the post-revolution context, I find it very hard to belive that the US *supports* them. The US supported Mubarak, and currently supports the Egyptian Military -- enemies of the Muslim brotherhood. Furthermore, the Muslim Brotherhood is not a violent movement: their methodology of controlling society is through the provision of social services paired with Islamist teachings and mass communication. And their discourse is far from friendly to the US. It makes no sense that the US would be supporting them in the Egyptian context (since they're already in bed with the military). If they are, they're doing it wrong, since Egypt is still quite firmly under military control.<br />
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- Way to make a sweeping observation about the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights and not back it up with anything whatsoever. <br />
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- Mass killings only serve those who want regime change? Brother, you need to see what happens to a society in which mass killings are carried out. In some people they inspire anger, solidarity, and an increased desire to overthrow the regime. In most, though, they just inspire overwhelming fear and trauma. <br />
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Did the massacre of 17,000 to 40,000 people in Hama in 1982 by Assad's father do the Muslim Brotherhood any good? Nope. Put an end to that revolt so it did. Have the mass killings carried out by the North Korean regime, or Colombian paramilitaries, or by the Russians in Chechnya led to the overthrow of those regimes? If only. Again, if the US is trying to overthrow the Syrian regime by killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people in order to gain support for an invasion, it's a crap methodology. They've overthrown regimes before in much simpler and more effective ways, haven't they? <br />
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- So Syria has a social safety net. So does Saudi Arabia. So does Sweden. Let me tell you, it's not at all the case that "nobody goes to bed hungary [sic]" in Syria: ask any imprisoned human rights defender in that country, where so many have undertaken hunger strikes in order to protest their detention.<br />
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- Oil production in Syria has halved since 1995, and companies like Shell and Total have been exploiting Syrian oil for decades. It doesn't appear to be the most lucrative or hard to access market. Certainly not enough to merit an invasion, when you think of what that's cost the US over the last 10 years. <br />
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- As a general comment, the structure of this article for me doesn't have any clear logical narrative. <br />
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- Caveat: I'm by no means supporting US policy in Syria or the middle east or anywhere. A friend of mine is locked up in Bahrain and may well die in prison one of these days as he is on hunger strike. Interestingly enough his job at one point was to provide protection and security to human rights defenders throughout the middle east, including Syria, and he had his work cut out for him by that bloody regime. I have no doubt that the US and other Western countries are up to all kinds of dirty tricks in Syria but your argument just doesn't make sense. Instead of attacking the MSM Bahrain narrative, Let's attack this dissenting post about Syria.http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2887662012-03-26T09:10:53+00:00Lefty"Sorry, but this is a pretty poorly written and very poorly argued, speculative ...<em>"Sorry, but this is a pretty poorly written and very poorly argued, speculative article fuelled more by anti-US, Israel, UK, France (...) rhetoric than anything else. "</em><br />
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Ok but if you don't bother backing up this sweeping statement then it's just empty mud slinging and does not constitute an argument?<br />
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<em>"A critical view of the western media is fine but would you not cast the same critical eye over the 'alternative' media you cite with such enthusiasm? Life is not black and white, it's technicolor, let's try to be open."</em><br />
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You don't sound very open! Seems to me that pretty much all of the MSM are singing the same tune about Syria. This article is offering a welcome alternative view yet you want this one to parrot the same views as everyone else as well. Why should it? Why are you attacking the balance of this one article while ignoring the totally obvious bias of nearly all the rest of the media? you are just trying to frame the debate around the left being biased when it's clearly the MSM that is totally biased about Syria. How Orwellian!<br />
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<em>"- The argument that NATO would fuel an entire war in Syria in order to control its airbases for an attack on Iran is fairly poor: why bother when they already have Iran surrounded with bases in Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan...?"</em><br />
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Why don't you ask them?. Syria is a key Ally of Iran and controlling Syria further isolates Iran. Also Israel are pushing for this regime change and it's an election year in the US. AIPAC are a powerful political lobbying force in the US and that may have something to do with this too.<br />
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<em>"- It seems you're arguing that the US has an interest in fundamentalist Islamist regimes including the Muslim Brotherhood controlling regimes like Egypt and Syria. What? While I agree that the Muslim Brotherhood could be seen as right-wing reactionaries, and their presence and popularity in Egypt is indeed worrying in the post-revolution context, I find it very hard to belive that the US *supports* them. </em>"<br />
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Do you find it hard to understand how the US supports the extreme Muslim regimes in Saudis Arabia and Bahrain? The fact is the US has shown a preference for authoritarian regimes where the population is ruled with an iron hand and the flow of oil and military cooperation is reliable. They don't give a shit what happens to the people once they get what they want. No sign of sanctions or airstrikes on Saudi Arabia or Bahrain! The US planners know that the Muslim brotherhood will cooperate provided they get their stupid sharia values enshrined in law. Egypt is proof of this. Libya will likely also end up under sharia and the Muslim brotherhood. Syria is next. radical jihadists are working with the US to topple the awkward strongmen and replace them with stable iron fisted sharia governments. there is proof of this cooperation in Libya. witness the alqaeda head of the NTC in Bhenghazi and jihadists landing from NATO ships during the attack on tripoli. Etc etc<br />
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<em>""The US supported Mubarak, and currently supports the Egyptian Military -- enemies of the Muslim brotherhood." </em><br />
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Not true. The Muslim brotherhood have cooperated with the military in Egypt in it's post Mubarak repression of the protesters which is on a larger scale than that instigated by Mubarak.<br />
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<em>"Furthermore, the Muslim Brotherhood is not a violent movement: their methodology of controlling society is through the provision of social services paired with Islamist teachings and mass communication. And their discourse is far from friendly to the US. It makes no sense that the US would be supporting them in the Egyptian context (since they're already in bed with the military). If they are, they're doing it wrong, since Egypt is still quite firmly under military control."</em><br />
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If the Muslim brotherhood are cooperating with the Egyptian military and the US are cooperating with the Egyptian military then logic would seem to dictate that they are all working towards the same ends!<br />
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<em>"- Mass killings only serve those who want regime change? Brother, you need to see what happens to a society in which mass killings are carried out. In some people they inspire anger, solidarity, and an increased desire to overthrow the regime. In most, though, they just inspire overwhelming fear and trauma. "</em><br />
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it often depends on who is being killed. if you exploit natural tribal or religious fault lines then you can destabilise a country. If you target leaders of a movement, you can kill a movement and chill dissent. it's not as simple as you are painting it.<br />
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Did the massacre of 17,000 to 40,000 people in Hama in 1982 by Assad's father do the Muslim Brotherhood any good? Nope. Put an end to that revolt so it did. Have the mass killings carried out by the North Korean regime, or Colombian paramilitaries, or by the Russians in Chechnya led to the overthrow of those regimes? If only. <br />
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Now now! Your bias against the usual suspects is showing through the cracks here! Russia, north Korea, farc. Only Chavez and china and Cuba left out here. I'm sure you could have weaved them in there too. And you call this article biased? ;-)<br />
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handler report: "misses opportunities to bad mouth chavez and others. must try harder!"<br />
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<em>"Again, if the US is trying to overthrow the Syrian regime by killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people in order to gain support for an invasion, it's a crap methodology. They've overthrown regimes before in much simpler and more effective ways, haven't they? "</em><br />
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really? A crap methodology? You really need to read up on the Einstein institute and the work of rabid anti communist CIA shill gene sharp. the links are on my previous post. This is a really cheap way to reshape countries by fooling the populations into doing the dirty work of imperialism and corporatism. it's actually both effective clever and cheap compared to full blown invasions and the population pays you back for all the weapons with access to natural resources and strategic concessions afterwards. Open your eyes.<br />
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<em>"- So Syria has a social safety net. So does Saudi Arabia. So does Sweden. Let me tell you, it's not at all the case that "nobody goes to bed hungary [sic]" in Syria: ask any imprisoned human rights defender in that country, where so many have undertaken hunger strikes in order to protest their detention."</em><br />
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seems to me that a hunger strike is a voluntary act. starvation is not.<br />
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<em>"- Oil production in Syria has halved since 1995, and companies like Shell and Total have been exploiting Syrian oil for decades. It doesn't appear to be the most lucrative or hard to access market. Certainly not enough to merit an invasion, when you think of what that's cost the US over the last 10 years. "</em><br />
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like I said previously, Syria is a key ally of Iran. Iran is the real prize here. this is not really about getting Syrian oil but it's a nice bonus if they do.<br />
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<em>"- As a general comment, the structure of this article for me doesn't have any clear logical narrative. "</em><br />
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I guess when you haven't much of an argument to offer, some literary criticism is in order! ;-)<br />
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<em>"- Caveat: I'm by no means supporting US policy in Syria or the middle east or anywhere. A friend of mine is locked up in Bahrain and may well die in prison one of these days as he is on hunger strike. </em>"<br />
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I find this bit somewhat hard to swallow considering you are coming on this site specifically attacking an alternative view article highlighting this bad behaviour and banging on about Syria,Russia,north Korea etc. Methinks a wolf posing as a house pet.<br />
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Bahrain? Oh yes, that's the dictatorship that is allowed to treat it's citizens like crap without a murmur from the US. And the one that is sold weapons by the UK and others specifically designed to help quell public dissent.<br />
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<em>"Interestingly enough his job at one point was to provide protection and security to human rights defenders throughout the middle east, including Syria, and he had his work cut out for him by that bloody regime.</em>"<br />
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And no doubt even more so by Bahrain who imprisoned him. Of course no sanctions or airstrikes or weapons to dissenters there, although plenty of weapons to the ruling elite! however the media remains rather mute on Bahrain. I await your scathing article attacking the elite in Bahrain and their cosy relationships with the US and UK on this site. I'm sure your friend who is incarcerated in Bahrain would welcome it too.<br />
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<em>" I have no doubt that the US and other Western countries are up to all kinds of dirty tricks in Syria but your argument just doesn't make sense."</em><br />
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And yet the rubbish spouted about Syria by the echo chambers of the MSM all singing a similar tune does? Hmmm! If you truly believe what you just said then explain why most of your efforts are geared towards discrediting an isolated article saying just that? Surely by your own logic you should be attacking the mainstream media and it's narrative that the US are only helping the people free themselves from an evil dictator instead. A narrative Which it appears both yourself by your own admission and the author consider a blatant lie. OK let's critique one narrative and all fall smartly in line behind another then.http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2887792012-03-27T06:05:27+00:00Dan Ó Clunaighdan.cloney at gmail dot comOkay, relax man, let's not overreact.
"You don't sound very open! Seems to me t...Okay, relax man, let's not overreact.<br />
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"You don't sound very open! Seems to me that pretty much all of the MSM are singing the same tune about Syria. This article is offering a welcome alternative view yet you want this one to parrot the same views as everyone else as well. Why should it? Why are you attacking the balance of this one article while ignoring the totally obvious bias of nearly all the rest of the media? you are just trying to frame the debate around the left being biased when it's clearly the MSM that is totally biased about Syria. How Orwellian! "<br />
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Well yes, man, I think we have to apply the same criticism to the anti-mainstream narrative that we apply to the mainstream narrative. If I'm reading indymedia it's beacuse I'm already critical of the MSM, rather than sit around repeating ourselves and patting ourselves on the back I'd rather be self-reflexive rather than just accepting that because something is critical of the MSM, it has to be true or correct and can't be criticised. Frame it around the left being biased? It's not just the left that's biased. Everyone's biased. That's the problem.<br />
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"Why don't you ask them?. Syria is a key Ally of Iran and controlling Syria further isolates Iran. Also Israel are pushing for this regime change and it's an election year in the US. AIPAC are a powerful political lobbying force in the US and that may have something to do with this too. "<br />
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Good answer, I'll just grab the phone. Sorry but I'm not convinced: a war in Syria in order to facilitate a war with Iran... why not just a war with Iran? They didn't need a war with anyone to facilitate a war with Iraq, they just went and did it, didn't they?<br />
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"Do you find it hard to understand how the US supports the extreme Muslim regimes in Saudis Arabia and Bahrain? The fact is the US has shown a preference for authoritarian regimes where the population is ruled with an iron hand and the flow of oil and military cooperation is reliable. They don't give a shit what happens to the people once they get what they want. No sign of sanctions or airstrikes on Saudi Arabia or Bahrain! "<br />
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I agree with this. That wasn't my point, I think you misunderstood. But in the Egyptian case they obvioulsy favoured Mubarak over the Muslim Brotherhood, as they supported Ben Ali, (don't you remember their utterly shit reaction to the uprisings?) and as they continue to support Bouteflika in Algeria and the kings of Morocco and Jordan rather than the radical Islamist alternatives. That's been the axis of US policy in MENA countries over the last decades. They've preferred dictators like Ben Ali, Mubarrak, Bouteflika etc who follow something of a more Ataturk-based authoritarian model. Given, in different contexts, their attitude has swung according to their normal cold pragmatism -- support for the mujahadeen in Afghanistan.<br />
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"The US planners know that the Muslim brotherhood will cooperate provided they get their stupid sharia values enshrined in law. Egypt is proof of this. Libya will likely also end up under sharia and the Muslim brotherhood. Syria is next. radical jihadists are working with the US to topple the awkward strongmen and replace them with stable iron fisted sharia governments. there is proof of this cooperation in Libya. witness the alqaeda head of the NTC in Bhenghazi and jihadists landing from NATO ships during the attack on tripoli. Etc etc "<br />
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Ah right, and do the people who started these revolutions have no say in the whole thing? You think the people who overthrew the Mubarak regime are just going to lie down and take a brutal Islamist regime? I wouldn't underestimate them, nor the Syrians, nor the Tunisians. It's a different generation behind these revolutions and they're not islamists.<br />
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"If the Muslim brotherhood are cooperating with the Egyptian military and the US are cooperating with the Egyptian military then logic would seem to dictate that they are all working towards the same ends!"<br />
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Right, but you didn't deal with the point that the Muslim Brotherhood, as I said, is a non-violent movement since the time Hassan Al-Banna formed it, and this article seems to say that they're somehow behind the violence. Again, unless the MB has fundamentally changed its characteristics, this is very difficult for me to believe.<br />
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"Now now! Your bias against the usual suspects is showing through the cracks here! Russia, north Korea, farc. Only Chavez and china and Cuba left out here. I'm sure you could have weaved them in there too. And you call this article biased? ;-)"<br />
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Firstly, you didn't deal with my point. Have you nothing to say about the Hama massacre? Do you accept my point?<br />
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Now, on to the accusation that was always going to come, that I'm some kind of conservative or whatever. Disappointing but unfortunately typical of those on the left or right who just want to buy into a whole package of beliefs and allegiances without being self reflexive. I didn't mention FARC - they're not paramilitaries, they're guerrillas. The Colombian paramilitaries to which I referred are right-wing pro-government pro-neoliberal groups ('autodefensas') which were founded with the support of the US during the Cold War and remain in operation today (most notorious group being the 'aguilas negras'), regularly attacking and killing trade unionists or other progressive elements of civil society. They've killed much more than the FARC have. So maybe use wikipedia before you accuse people of only targeting left-wing human rights abusers. <br />
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Secondly, what, don't you actually know what's happening in North Korea? Or is it best to turn a blind eye for fear of actually agreeing with what some conservatives say? Does the fact that some conservatives lobby for human rights in DPRK mean that the people of that country don't deserve them? Yeah of course, some of them are less enthusiastic about human rights in countries that are US-friendly and strategic. But the same could be said of left and you know it: your comment is proof of it. If you're going to denounce HR abuses, denounce them on the right and the left.<br />
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"really? A crap methodology? You really need to read up on the Einstein institute and the work of rabid anti communist CIA shill gene sharp. the links are on my previous post. This is a really cheap way to reshape countries by fooling the populations into doing the dirty work of imperialism and corporatism. it's actually both effective clever and cheap compared to full blown invasions and the population pays you back for all the weapons with access to natural resources and strategic concessions afterwards. Open your eyes. "<br />
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Well, neither you nor I know really what's on their minds, but it seems it'd be a bit more pragmatically effective if the US would just ally themselves with friendly elements in the armed forces (who are still not radical Islamist, more westernised and thus more amenable to the imposition of neoliberal market models) and incite a coup, for example. They've done it a million times. Why support Islamists who are inherently in favour of social security nets (like Saudi Arabia) if what you're after is neoliberalism?<br />
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"seems to me that a hunger strike is a voluntary act. starvation is not."<br />
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Wow. Where's your solidarity now man? That's a bit cold isn't it? Might you have considered why they're on hunger strike? Or would you only have solidarity with them if they were tortured by the US or one of their allies? I think it's your true colours that are shining through here mate.<br />
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"I find this bit somewhat hard to swallow considering you are coming on this site specifically attacking an alternative view article highlighting this bad behaviour and banging on about Syria,Russia,north Korea etc. Methinks a wolf posing as a house pet. Bahrain? Oh yes, that's the dictatorship that is allowed to treat it's citizens like crap without a murmur from the US. And the one that is sold weapons by the UK and others specifically designed to help quell public dissent [...] And no doubt even more so by Bahrain who imprisoned him. Of course no sanctions or airstrikes or weapons to dissenters there, although plenty of weapons to the ruling elite! however the media remains rather mute on Bahrain. I await your scathing article attacking the elite in Bahrain and their cosy relationships with the US and UK on this site. I'm sure your friend who is incarcerated in Bahrain would welcome it too." <br />
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Right, so what are you accusing me of here? With the sacrifice my friend is making in Bahrain do you think I'm unaware of what the US and UK are doing in that country? Do you think that might have just flown over my head? No man, it's crystal bloody clear to me what's going on there, it's more than present in my day to day, since he could be made a martyr of any hour now. <br />
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And just because I'm sickened by what they've done to him, does that mean I should just fall in line behind any narrative that's critical of the US, just by virtue of it being critical of the US? Does it mean I should avoid criticising regimes just because they're also against the US? If and when my friend passes away the US and other western regimes will be largely responsible in my eyes. But his fight wasn't just for the people of Bahrain, it was for the people of Syria too; the women of Saudi Arabia and Iran, the hunger strikers of Palestine (by the way "methinks" you'd be less flippant about their hunger strikes than those of the Syrians...why?); the Western Saharans, and so on, and so forth. You should follow his daughter on twitter, @angryarabiya, she could teach you a thing or two about solidarity that goes beyond political ideology.<br />
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Brother after being lucky enough to learn from someone like him, whose dedication was to human dignity irrespective of ideology, sorry, I'm not going to fall into some kind of machiavellian cold-war mentality just to get along with all the other leftwingers out there at the expense of my fellow man and woman. I suggest you yourself open your eyes cause it seems that's exactly where you're at.<br />
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"And yet the rubbish spouted about Syria by the echo chambers of the MSM all singing a similar tune does? Hmmm! If you truly believe what you just said then explain why most of your efforts are geared towards discrediting an isolated article saying just that? Surely by your own logic you should be attacking the mainstream media and it's narrative that the US are only helping the people free themselves from an evil dictator instead. A narrative Which it appears both yourself by your own admission and the author consider a blatant lie"<br />
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As I said above, I wouldn't be reading indymedia if I weren't critical of the mainstream meadia already (unless I were a troll). To repeat myself again, does that mean we can't be critical within alternative circles? That, to me, sounds Orwellian.<br />
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Of course I don't dig on the US's narrative but, what, does that mean I should equally uncritically dig on the Russian one? Or Webster bloody Tarpley's one? I'm not going to do a disservice to the victims of Assad's regime, the dissidents, their families and sympathizers, and the human rights defenders who've dedicated their lives and often had them taken in the struggle for human rights in Syria by saying that they're just a bunch of sympathisers with US-backed islamists who are the 'bad guys' trying to overthrow poor Assad who gives everyone bread. <br />
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But whatever, if you want to keep seeing things in simple left-right dichotomies, keep playing that 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' logic and eat up whatever is sold to you as 'alternative' then that's your business.in the interest of the self-reflexivity I'm banging on about...http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2887822012-03-27T16:56:48+00:00Dan Ó C.... a couple of things, since I feel like my second comment took us further off....... a couple of things, since I feel like my second comment took us further off topic and the conversation could spiral off into the ether. <br />
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Looking at my first comment, I'll admit it indulges in some speculation, which is not a good way to argue and re-reading it, doesn't accurately reflect where I stand on the whole thing. It's a bit reactionary. But that's what I get for writing comments after a long day at work.<br />
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The one part of this article I perhaps agree with most is where it says: <br />
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"So what has been happening? Its probably impossible to know exactly since so many things happen in so many places and there are different people with different perspectives and agendas telling the story".<br />
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Unfortunately what the article does then is basically give us a review of Webster Tarpley's opinion and concludes that he's correct. In fairness I reserve the right to take issue with that. Re: in the interest of the self-reflexivity I'm banging on about...http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2887832012-03-27T17:39:15+00:00Taking the blue pillThe article was primarily written to jolt people out of the mainstream media nar...The article was primarily written to jolt people out of the mainstream media narrative of the whole Syrian issue because it has been so consistently the same, one sided and in my opinion largely pure propaganda. A whole slew of links to other sources that weren't singing the tune of the MSM were provided in the central grey box in the hope people might go and read some of those assuming they were interested and begin to realize how fake the mainstream narrative has been and still is.<br />
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Regarding the argument against the Muslim Brotherhood, one should realize that for the imperial powers, whenever the main puppet is disposed that they always have a fallback position. In fact there are always multiple fallback positions. It is quite similar to the way the unions in most countries have been co-opted by the parent State. On the one hand they oppose them and try to reduce their influence, but they are used at the same time to stiffle any real movement arising from below. <br />
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So to go off topic in Egypt, recently the MB were making noises about shutting off the gas to Israel but this is just that -noise and is designed to encourage the man on the street to say these guys are on their side. But the MB are leaning towards a loan with the IMF. Remember it was food price increases that help trigger the whole thing and the MB are supposed to be for social programs, but they are obviously planning to let the IMF in by the back door. Afterall things had got really bad because Murbarack had let the IMF in before and they were imposing austerity and one of those forms was the removal of subsidies on the price of food.<br />
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In the case of Syria, the death squads and the random killings carried out by them were purely for Western consumption so that they case could be made to pump up public opinion to support UN sanctions and get to the exact same point that they did with Libya where "something" had to be done and a no-fly zone was imposed. Because of the utterly overwhelming power of the imperial countries with air-warfare -once they had achieved that, the game would have been over for Syria. Of course many many 1000s of people would have died in the bombing but that never seems to matter. I should re-state too that many of the killings were carried out by the death squads put in place by "foreign forces" and these people were not killed by the Syrians -the very opposite of what BBC, France24, CNN and Al-Jazzera wanted us to believe. <br />
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Unfortunately though we are all so conditioned to reflex black and white type reactions by the mainstream media, that an article like this seems to trigger a response implying that it is totally supportive of the Syrian regime and it is all good just because it is critical of the official MSM narrative. Stuck in the middle with youhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2887852012-03-27T23:29:55+00:00An Geabhrog FiáinSeems to me that those who are so vehemently though justifably opposed to the we...Seems to me that those who are so vehemently though justifably opposed to the western media narrative are themselves very much stuck in the opposing narrative. There is an alternatve narrative and it is one where this is a genuine revolution from the bottom up. This is something that might be hard to swallow for those who only see the tentacles of the CIA, Nato, Mossad or a myriad other groups in this particular and in other uprisings and who have invested so much in building up that argument. While the west are scrambling to put together some sort of government in exile, there is evidence that those workers, communities and groups who are fighting against what is in fact a dictatorship, wish to have no truck western interference. Isn't it just a little condescending if not verging on arrogant elitism to deny the possibility that this is a genuine revolution. Isn't it also just a bit disingenuous for those who claim to be opposed to western imperialism to then come to the aid of opposing despots who are in fact just as oppressive. Yes, the Syrian regime has implemented such things as education for all, good health care, a secular system etc. but it is also a militaristic dictatorial system which if it were flying the flag of pro US Imperialist, Chile would be rightly condemnded by those same voices who defend it because it is not. please read the links and then comment.http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2887872012-03-28T03:17:13+00:00leftyGeabhroig, you obviously haven't read my links in the first comment about Gene s...Geabhroig, you obviously haven't read my links in the first comment about Gene sharp and the Albert Einstein institute. <br />
I suggest you do so before commenting further on these so called "revolutions"<br />
You might find them a bit of an eye opener!...http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2888142012-03-29T20:11:14+00:00Abu BakrYou ignored the bit where I said your pal Mr Assad has been busy murdering peace...You ignored the bit where I said your pal Mr Assad has been busy murdering peaceful protesters for about six to seven months (in which time the Free Syrian Army did not exist). It is entirely his fault - he had a window to do the noble thing, but instead he murdered and tortured the Syrian people to the point at which the FSA formed and the Gulf States became involved (the FSA half a year later and the Gulf States probably in the last month). The reality is, despite some rogue elements potentially creeping in, in recent months..the oppressed Syrian Sunnis have seen their opportunity for freedom, and Assad has brutally fought back. To apologise for this mass murderer makes you a very sick person.<br />
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He has some support from Alawites due to factional support - 'grassroot' Alawi, government workers, military, shabeeha and whoever owes their livelihood and bread to the Assad regime are all those who support the long-necked toothbrush dog, but who cares about these regime collaborators? 30,000 in the Hama massacre and 8,000 now. People are pissed from all the killing. And you still wonder why people hate the man? This isn't mentioning all those who have seen their children raped, homes destroyed, torture of civilians and so on. The protesting started on January 28, 2011. Unlike the Libyan revolution, there wasn't any early armed defense. People have been protesting for at least 6 months before deciding to defend themselves. They protested, got shot, had a funeral, got shot, protested and so on.<br />
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Even people who had nothing to do with the protests were arrested, tortured or killed. After almost 7 months of this disgusting unmitigated brutality against PEACEFUL PROTESTING, they finally decide to defend themselves. And the Syrian soldiers who saw the evil being committed deserted, and many were killed trying. The FSA wasn't even announced until the end of July. And when they defend themselves, they are called 'terrorists' and 'criminal gangs'..the same derogatory terms that are used for an opposition whenever a brutal dictator faces an uprising, from to Shah of Iran to Mubaruk to now Assad.<br />
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Those people on the so called left who do support Assad will have some explaining to do when all the human rights violations are discovered. I for one won't be taking any lectures ever again from anyone who falls into this category.<br />
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Assad's army is launching shells and rockets directly into a densely populated civilian area you absolute lunatic! Do you remember what your reaction was when the Israeli army did the same thing during Operation Cast Lead? Were you umming and ahhing over the nature of the people who were being shelled then?<br />
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Assad's regime is as "legitimate" as that of Suharto in Indonesia, Samosa in Nicaragua, or the Saudis of today. While I understand your distain for the Sunni uprising - it contains some nasty elements, as rebel groups always do - that doesn't mean they don't have valid reasons for hating a vile regime. I suspect you would understand this perfectly well if it was a US-backed regime facing an insurgency eh? People of Homs you will be avenged but not by foreigners who see you only as in or out of their sphere of influence but by the Arab masses and their sympathisers across the world amongst the oppressed everywhere.I'm sick of sociopathic armchair "pro military intervention" internet trollshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2888202012-03-30T03:31:50+00:00leftyFirstly, this is the first time I have seen you post on this thread. Yet you are...Firstly, this is the first time I have seen you post on this thread. Yet you are claiming you made points from another persons post. That makes me think you are probably just a troll.<br />
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Nobody has denied or condoned the shelling of Hama. Nobody is a "pal" of Assad. Thats just dirty and deliberate ad hominem smearing. Hardly surprising from a troll though<br />
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According to the Washington post "At least 10,000 people were killed in February 1982 during the three-week pounding of the city by government artillery and tanks ordered by Hafez al-Assad. Hafez al-Assad was moving to quash a stronghold of the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood". A horrible incident indeed. <br />
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/for-syrians-homs-offensive-provokes-memories-of-1982-hama-massacre/2012/03/01/gIQAbxeJlR_story.html">washington post link</a>
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However while it's still awful, thats just 1/3 of what you and others are claiming. Major distortion of facts to deliberately misinform or get people annoyed. Standard troll behaviour too.<br />
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Nobody likes Assad much. It's disingenuous of you to say that. (but unsurprising from a troll) However neither do they like the proposed alternative of western bombing and sanctions and a generously armed fundamentalist militia driving the country into heavily armed chaos and civil war where many more will die over time, and a fundamentalist sharia law being imposed by the muslim brotherhood (y'know, those guys standing by while the army imprison those who led tahir square protests in Egypt) on the populace. Its the devil or the deep blue sea. There are no good choices here.<br />
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We all saw how it turned out in Libya and for that matter Iraq. How many dead in total in those countries?<br />
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In Syria, the borders are porus and the US, UK, Qatar, and rich fundamentalist wahaabi muslims from Saudi Arabia (y'know, that absolute bastion of benign rule and freedom!) are arming jihadists with the objective of turning the place into another Libya with Sharia law and in the process, weakening Iran.<br />
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Many on the left, while they don't like people such as Assad, have learned their lesson at this stage and realise that the western / Saudi backed military intervention alternative is usually much worse and that it is not done for any benign reasons such as helping people, but rather to further their own geopolitical and religious ends which will likely result in even more carnage down the line. <br />
<br />Ah herehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2888412012-04-01T01:25:26+00:00Dan Ó CI'd like to clarify that Abu-Bakr is not me. I'm not pro-military intervention (...I'd like to clarify that Abu-Bakr is not me. I'm not pro-military intervention (I'm a pacifist) nor a troll.feckin trolls!http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2888532012-04-01T23:49:20+00:00leftydan, I do realise AB is not you. dan, I do realise AB is not you. Meanwhile...http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2888542012-04-02T06:20:21+00:00Dan Ó CCool just wanted that to be clear. Meanwhile, in hijacked Egyptian revolution ne...Cool just wanted that to be clear. Meanwhile, in hijacked Egyptian revolution news, it seems they're not letting Bahraini human rights defender Maryam Alkhawaja into Egypt this morning (<a href="https://twitter.com/#" title="https://twitter.com/#">https://twitter.com/#</a>!/MARYAMALKHAWAJA). <a href="http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/cairo-apr-2-2012-0752" title="http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/cairo-apr-2-2012-0752">http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/cairo-apr-2-2012-0752</a>and meanwhile..http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2888572012-04-02T14:42:11+00:00opus diablos..back on location...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=300.....back on location...<br />
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<a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=30001" title="http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=30001">http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=30001</a><br />
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the fog-machinery of mission-creepy neo-con war pumps onmore one sided coverage from RTE prime timehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2890232012-04-13T19:31:38+00:00leftyA very one sided version of events from RTE prime time program tue 10/04/2012. A very one sided version of events from RTE prime time program tue 10/04/2012. NATO/US death squads continue their murder in Syria and then blame Syrianshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2891312012-04-16T22:45:17+00:00TNATO/US death squads continue to operate in Syria and then these deaths are blam...NATO/US death squads continue to operate in Syria and then these deaths are blamed on the Syrian government and use by the NATO and European governments -mainly UK & France (France are the former colonists in Syria) as an excuse for NATO to go in.<br />
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Turkey is of course being put under huge pressure by the US & UK to take an aggressive stance towards Syria.<br />
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See this latest video on RT.com which explains things in some detail.<br />
Syriahttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/101538#comment2891322012-04-16T22:52:09+00:00pat cMore on "rebel" mercenaries here.<br />
<a href="http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101699" title="http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101699">http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101699</a>More on "rebel" mercenaries here.<br />
<a href="http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101699" title="http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101699">http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101699</a>