Israel: The only democracy in the Middle East ... "It would be a good idea"

by TD - FPC Mon Oct 06, 2008 14:29

One!

Richard Kimball of the Galway Inter-Faith Alliance and son

by Mike Novack Tue Oct 07, 2008 13:43

The concept "democracy" has NOTHING to do with whether or not the democratic group makes wise, just, good, considerate, etc. etc. decisions. It;s just about WHO gets to make the decisions, the process. Israel is VERY democratic, perhaps TOO MUCH democracy (lack of a "consititution" restrictinf the will of the majority --- a constitution is an ANTI democratic document, a limitation on democracy, perhaps a good limitation.)

If you want a system of decision making that will result in good, wise, just, considerate of others, etc. etc. decisions then you DON'T want democracy. Good luck trying to find a system that works. The usual argument FOR democracy is that for all its warts, in the long run democracy results in better decisions than the possible alternatives, which have problems of their own.

by TD - FPC Tue Oct 07, 2008 20:07

Mr Novak, Israel likes to present itself to the world as a Western democracy, the "only democracy in the Middle East" and all that nonsense, and on the surface it a simulacrum of one, however, "In fact, it is quite different , an ethnocracy based on an Eastern European tribal nationalism" (Jeff Halper; An Israeli in Palestine, resisting Dispossession, Redeeming Israel) although Israeli sociologists, Smooha and Hanf opt for the term "ethnic democracy," Halper argues that; "The very name of the country denotes its belonging to the Jews, as do the exclusively Jewish motifs on our flag and the exclusively Jewish content of our national anthem ... Arabs may sit in the Parliament, but no government decision is considered legitimate unless it enjoys a "Jewish majority" ... Structural discrimination goes even deeper. The Law of Return that determines who can emigrate to Israel applies only to Jews ... discrimination in housing and education which are strictly segregated, house demolitions solely targeting Arabs ... There is not even a civil mechanism by which Jewish, Christian and Muslims citizens of Israel can marry each other ... the Citizenship and Entry into Israel law which prohibits spouses of Arab citizens who come from the West Bank, Gaza or any Arab country from entering Israel or receiving residency rights or citizenship- including the children of such marriages ... Avigdor Lieberman, minister of Strategic Affairs and Deputy Prime Minister proclaimed in 2002 that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Palestinian citizens would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. they can take their bundles and get lost" In a Ha'aretz, May 9, 2006 poll, 68% of Israeli Jews want Palestinian citizens of Israel ethnically cleansed/"transferred."

Palestinian citizens of Israel cannot serve in the Israeli Defence Forces thus making them ineligible, Catch 22 style, for educational and housing aid. What Jeff Halper calls the Matrix of Control is so pervasive and insidious that Palestinians in the West Bank have to get permission from the Israeli Occupation authorities to have their own vegetable patches and roof water storage tanks.

by Mike Novack Tue Oct 07, 2008 21:06

Arabs may sit in the Parliament, but no government decision is considered legitimate unless it enjoys a "Jewish majority"
The Arab parties have never been "in government". Again I refer you to the definitions of democracy. The Arab Israelis are a minority. But you COULD conceivably have a decision without a Jewish majority if the Jewsih votes were clsoely divided.

... Structural discrimination goes even deeper. The Law of Return that determines who can emigrate to Israel applies only to Jews ...
You meant immigrate?

discrimination in housing and education which are strictly segregated,
Housing is not, education is not

house demolitions solely targeting Arabs
You don't have "house demolitions" in Israel

... There is not even a civil mechanism by which Jewish, Christian and Muslims citizens of Israel can marry each other
Deception -- there is no civil marriage in Israel. Two JEWS can't marry each other in a civil ceremony. Two JEWS can't marry each other officated by one of the divisions of Judaism not recognized in Israel. However Israel does recognize civil ceremonies performed elsewhere so this is more a nuisance than anything else

... the Citizenship and Entry into Israel law which prohibits spouses of Arab citizens who come from the West Bank, Gaza or any Arab country from entering Israel or receiving residency rights or citizenship- including the children of such marriages ...
Not EXACTLY as described. They aren't PROHIBITED -- but have no automatic right of entry or residence. Have to apply and may be rejected. And the children of such marriages ARE citizens of Israel (in fact the most intersting case currently is a Palestinian man who lost his residency rights* but now may need emergency getting back in because his son is joining the IDF)

In a Ha'aretz, May 9, 2006 poll, 68% of Israeli Jews want Palestinian citizens of Israel ethnically cleansed/"transferred."
You really don't get it, do you? You really didn't understand when I said that democracy had nothing to do with good, wise, just, etc. etc. decisions, just about making the decisions that "the people" want.

Palestinian citizens of Israel cannot serve in the Israeli Defence Forces thus making them ineligible, Catch 22 style, for educational and housing aid.
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. They most certainly are allowed to ENLIST -- but they are not drafted. In other words, they can join the Israeli military if they want to. Generally depends upon clan whether that's safe for their families if they do.

What Jeff Halper calls the Matrix of Control is so pervasive and insidious that Palestinians in the West Bank have to get permission from the Israeli Occupation authorities to have their own vegetable patches and roof water storage tanks.
And this has to do with whether a DEMOCRACY? Hell, the Nazis came to power in Germany through democratic election.

* In the current case that I refer to, following a divorce the citizen ex-spouse gets to decide if his or her ex gets to retain residency rights. In this case the ex wife at first asked for that; later changed her mind so they were revoked (apparently a provision for that considered simpler than a restraining order so an expedited process). His son now grown is joing the Israeli military (which you believe impossible) and that puts him at risk so they are trying to figure out what to do as no bureaucratic procedure for a quick second reversal (need to reapply).

by TD - Free Palestine Campaign Thu Oct 09, 2008 13:00

"in government" : There are three MK's from the Arab-Israeli political party, Balad and three from the 'Jewish-Arab Party,' Hadash In the Knesset , as regards the democratic litmus test of "in government, Yitzhak Rabin, for instance, refused to take Arab parties into coalition but cynically relied on them for his parliamentary majority.

"You meant immigrate?" : Yup! I also meant to dwell on the iniquitous Law of Return, but due to time constraints couldn't: Jeff Halper, head honcho of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions in his recently published, An Israeli in Palestine, succinctly puts it, " I immigrated from Minnesota and received citizenship automatically, a Palestinian who was born here but lived for an extensive time outside is denied citizenship and the right to return."

"Housing is not" : In its review of Israel’s compliance with the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD) in Geneva on 22-23 February 2007. Adalah (The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel) presented evidence of "institutionalised discrimination in land and housing policies" to the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.To the same UN Committee, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) - the oldest human rights organisation in Israel whose mandate covers human rights violations committed by the State of Israel both within and outside Israel - "denounced severe and long-standing discrimination against the indigenous Arab Bedouin population of the Negev with respect to land and housing rights aimed at enabling Jewish citizens to settle in the Negev." http://www.adalah.org/newsletter/eng/feb07/fidh-cerd.pdf
Professor Oren Yiftachel, a political geographer from Ben-Gurion University whose work focuses on the relation between space and ethnicity, adds that the "Wine Route" initiative (the Israeli government's plan for a series of farms and wineries designed to draw tourists to the Negev) "draws a link between, on the one hand, Israel's longstanding efforts to restrict and circumscribe the space which its non-Jewish citizens are permitted to occupy and, on the other hand, new entrepreneurship projects. The state, in other words, is using entrepreneurs to advance its discriminatory practices, adopting, as it were, a new mechanism to prevent the Negev's Bedouin inhabitants from returning to their ancestral lands. Thus, in addition to demolishing their homes and spraying their crops with poison, now the government is building farms on their land."

"education is not" : Human Rights Watch points out: "The Israeli government operates two separate school systems, one for Jewish children and one for Palestinian Arab children. Discrimination against Palestinian Arab children colors every aspect of the two systems. Education Ministry authorities have acknowledged that the ministry spends less per student in the Arab system than in the Jewish school system. The majority's schools also receive additional state and state-sponsored private funding for school construction and special programs through other government agencies. The gap is enormous--on every criterion measured by Israeli authorities ... Often overcrowded and understaffed, poorly built, badly maintained, or simply unavailable, schools for Palestinian Arab children offer fewer facilities and educational opportunities than are offered other Israeli children." http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-01.htm

"You don't have "house demolitions" in Israel" : In 2004, the Israeli government established the “Demolition Administration” within the Ministry of the Interior, charged with overseeing the demolition of between 20,000 and 40,000 homes of Israeli (Palestinian) citizens. According to the Interior Ministry, 868 Palestinian homes were demolished inside Israel in 2006.

"Deception" : There is not even a civil mechanism by which Jewish, Christian and Muslims citizens of Israel can marry each other, "since personal status - citizenship, marriage, death, inheritance - is regulated by religious and not civil law. non-Jews cannot even be buried in Jewish cemeteries, even immigrant soldiers killed in battle whose Judaism is in doubt" (Jeff Halper, An Israeli in Palestine).

"PROHIBITED" : In 2002 Avraham Poraz of the liberal Shinui party, initiator of the Citizenship and Entry into Israel law threatened that Palestinians already married to Palestinian citizens of Israel “will have to go back to the West Bank regardless of how long they have been living in Israel,” to enforce this, Israeli Border Police invaded the Israeli town of Jaljulya, arrested 36 wives and mothers of Israeli citizens, and deported eight of them to the West Bank – the Israeli Supreme Court gave its imprimatur to this “defence measure” when challenged (Pappe 2006:249).

"You really don't get it, do you?" : I agree with you on this one; (that Israel has) "nothing to do with good, wise, just, etc. etc. decisions, just about making the decisions that "the people" want." (to make the decision implementing the "want" of the 68% of Israeli Jews who seek the ethnic cleansing of Israel's Palestinian citizens, perhaps.?).

"ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE" : As you say; ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE, which prompted some shame faced research on my part which revealed; that unlike most Christian and Muslim Palestinians, Bedouin serve in the Israeli army - duly acknowledged by grateful Israel in 2002 when the Green Patrol, oversaw the destruction of 14 metal shacks in the Negev desert, leaving some 125 Bedouin citizens of Israel homeless (another example, perhaps, of "You don't have "house demolitions" in Israel"). Further appreciation was expressed to Israel's Palestinian citizens in 2002 when the Knesset voted to cut all child allowance by 4 percent, but with an additional 20 percent reduction in benefits for a child without a relative who has served in the army -as few Arab citizens serve in the Israeli army, it is the one-and-a quarter million Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel who are the primary victims of this policy.

"DEMOCRACY?" : Another snippet of information concerning democracy, Israeli style: Palestinians are forbidden to collect rainwater in open reservoirs (B'tselem 2001).

by Vincent Thu Oct 09, 2008 18:12

If Arabs are entitled by law to serve in the Israeli Army but are not allowed in practice to serve then it is not ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE to say that : "Palestinian citizens of Israel cannot serve in the Israeli Defence Forces".
In fact it is the more true of the two statements when cpompared to yours : "They most certainly are allowed to ENLIST "
The truth is that they are not allowed in general. If the Arabs wanted to prove this to be the case then all they would have to do is turn up in their thousands and wait for the Israeli army to simply bar them openly. The fact that they only seek in very small numbers to join is the truth that allows the army conveniently hide it's lie.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20....html

Arabs resent preferences in housing and jobs given army veterans. "There are a wide array of discriminatory policies and practices that are a direct outcome and effect that the Arabs are excluded from the Army," Sultany said.

"By and large, Israel does not allow Arabs to serve," Rouhana said. But "if one is to say all Arabs or Muslims are not allowed to serve, that is not accurate either. They don't want it to look like they are preventing Arabs from serving, so they take them on an individual basis."

by Susan Tue Oct 14, 2008 17:40

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/J...29549

Yes indeed , thats how it is done in a democracy,

The Hooligans of Acre go on an anti-Arab rampage screaming "death to Arabs" and burning out houses and running off families in what can only be described as another pogrom. The police stand idly by as usual, unwilling to intervene so long as it was the Arabs on the receiving end of the violence.

And guess ..... Who gets blamed ?

Thats right ! The Arab guy who drove in his car to pick up his daughter.

" The Israel Police has caved in to Jewish hooligans," continued Tibi, adding, "I wonder if they will start to arrest Jews who eat and drink during the month of Ramadan."

Of course they will , its the only democracy in the Middle East where every body has en equal lack of Human Rights. Isnt it ?

by Gerard Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:57

Ali Abunimah explains how these recent attacks in Acre arent merely riots that have spontaneously erupted but are rather the inevitable outcome of the ongoing strategies of the extremist facist elements among the settler colonists who are bent of ethnically cleansing a Greater Israel of all Palestinians.

" While the facts and meaning of these events have been heavily contested, one of the underreported factors is the extent to which militant Israeli settlers from the West Bank, funded by donors in the United States, have instigated tension in Acre and other cities in an attempt to reduce their Arab populations. "

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9892.shtml

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:24

Most of the fallacies and inaccuracies have already been answered.
The title refers to a French 16th century story about a criminal under capital sentence who asked and received a year's stay of execution to teach Louis XII's horse to talk! When asked what he was doing he replied: "I might die. The king; or the horse, might die.... The horse might learn to talk."
When in a hole stop digging!!! As long as Arabs of all stripes put their efforts into niggling Israel without stopping to think that two can play, they will deserve to be excluded for kamikaze bombing; "to be on a diet," as Sharon's secretary put it, if they persist in rocketing Israel; to be in misery if they choose representatives who pocket foreign aid instead of building infrastructure; to be treated with suspicion as long as they mouth medieval Antisemitism in sermons, pamphlets and cartoon strips ....
We shall have a chance of peace between the Arabs and Israel when the Arab states and other minions drop their policy since 1920 of refusing to treat with Jews and Israel as equals; when the Arabs states and clergy stop using Israel and Jews as a whipping boy for their objections to the great powers of the day; when the cowards who feel good with themselves kicking the monkey because they can not kick the organ grinder lay off, and write practical answers to the real questions of the day. For corroberation consult Connor Cruise O'Brien's remark in, "The Siege, "Arab complaints about Israel are complaints about the 20th century."
Finally do consider that it was not only Mussolini who fell for his own propaganda. In Irish history regardless of what you think of Cromwell - the original republican of the English world -
he had several worthy achievements to his name in England and Britain as a whole; and there is a two sided catalogue of atrocities prior to his arrival. Believe the Arabs over Israel if you wish; but do not be surprised when the rest of the world allows that after 1948 Israel had a right to stay in the Green Line because the Arabs had been the self -proclaimed aggressors and would-be ethnic cleansers since 1947 - still are according to their publicity. Do not be surprised the World let Israel stay in Sinai & Golan after 1967 because the Egyptiansand Syrians broke the 1949 armistice and 1956 evacuation agreements in details you might skate over, but which cost Israel lives. FDA

by Vincent Sun Oct 26, 2008 15:47

Israel refuses to allow 120 health professionals into Gaza, Frank.

Im sure there are people who think like you, who can empathise with your whole Arabs hate Jews fear thing,but would any of them hold any opinions with more relevance to the Palestinian Israeli conflict than yours ? Doubtful.

Outside such a group most other people cant relate to your unhealthy viewpoint.

Most people simply wonder why medical delegations are excluded from the Gaza Strip when their help is so badly needed at this time of deprevation.Most people just cant understand how such conditions on the ground are allowed to continue by the world powers. The answer is in the special treatment that continues between America and Israel to the detriment of other states and peoples in the region.

" During the last two years of siege, Palestinians in Gaza have faced unemployment rates of near 90%, along with months-long bombardments by Israeli forces, and a chronic shortage of food, fuel and medical supplies. These conditions have created a severe mental health crisis that Palestinian doctors have been unable to address. A recent study found that 96% of Gazans say they are depressed, and nearly half of all schoolchildren find themselves unable to complete school assignments due to less energy, and physical pain."

http://www.imemc.org/article/57434

by JayCeeme Mon Oct 27, 2008 22:39

80 percent of the Palestinians want to eliminate Israel. The Hamas charter states very clearly what it's aims are and because of their hate filled indoctrination Israel faces terrorist attacks on an almost daily basis.

Bleating about lack of money for food but having an inexhaustible supply of money for weapons, rockets and terrorists gives the game away. There is plenty of money available for internal sabotage and black propaganda which is used for funding economic boycott and the ideological undermining of Israel.

There is no "peace process;" only a "war process," because this dispute is not, nor has ever been about land but only the destruction of the State of Israel. .

The Jewish state has a right to exist in peace and security and until the Palestinians give up their terrorism and war aims there is nothing to negotiate.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:17

There are probably perfectly good small-print reasons why the alleged 120 "health professionals" have been refused entry by Israel; but the nice question about Gaza is why does Egypt not allow entries of: food, medicine, fuel & other technical or medical assistants?

These fifty years I have seen several occasions when only half the story has been told by someone spouting rehearsed leaflets or slanted newsprint without checking the full material. A blatant example of half truth in the early 60's got me into careful varied reading on the conflict - an Arab post graduate on campus accused Israel of having seized Eilat, "after the armistice," but omitted, "with Egypt," [and (1) before the armistice with Jordan, (2) Eilat was Israel's under UN181 anyway].

Indeed Gaza is in an unhappy condition, but by Arab choice and Hamas boneheaded worship of ideology at the expense of its own constituency. When Israel pulled its forces and settlers in 2005 the sensible thing for the Gazans would have been to set about building their own society and NOT provoke Israel - but the old dogs can't learn new tricks and set about rocketing Sderot which cancelled the Israeli intention to leave Hebron and Nablus.

Obiter dicta, why the tramline thinking of some of your contributors calling central Palestine by their account: the West Bank [of Jordan]?

by Vincent Tue Oct 28, 2008 13:55

Very poor effort, Frank,

Through pogroms and massacres Israel grabbed and ethnically cleansed far more territory than was earmarked for the state under the illegal resolution 181 which overstepped the mandate of the UN by partitioning a land against the will of the majority of its inhabitants. The Indigenous people had no moral or logical responsibility to accept the partition of their ancient lands in order to accommodate a hoarde of European immigrants.Why you cite resoultion 181 in support of your nonsensical argument is a mystery, as under that illegal resolution Israel is already occupying 40% more territory than it was supposed to in what is called "Israel proper" and is illegally occupying Jerusalem, the Palestinian Capital.

There are no perfectly good small-print reasons why the 120 health professionals have been refused entry by Israel it is all in large print at the UN detailed clearly under Collective Punishment of the Civilian Populaiton. There is no question about why does Egypt not allow entries of: food, medicine, fuel & other technical or medical assistants, as anybody who follows these issues will be aware that Egypt is prohibited from allowing access under threat of military and economic intervention by the US on behalf of Israel.
You cannot build a society without food , water and raw materials. All these are held to a small trickle by Israel in order to ensure negative growth. Gaza is still 100% occupied and that is the purpose of the Free Gaza mission. If you watch what happens in the next day or two you will learn what is really happeing. Israel has already gone out of its way , behind the scenes to thwart the peace mission which it sees as a real threat to its ongoing inhuman and cowardly operations around Gaza.

" When two boats made the trip from Cyprus in August they encountered pressure, threats and intimidation. The same has occurred for this voyage leading to numerous delays.

Organizers report, “Israel continues to exert behind-the-scenes pressure on many of the people who have been assisting the Free Gaza Movement, hoping they can stop the boat before it leaves port.”"

http://www.imemc.org/article/57449

by Sean Og Tue Oct 28, 2008 22:11

In a free vote Gaza elected HAMAS which has declared war on the existence of Israel

In a free vote Germans elected Hitler who started the route to W W 2

Should the Allies have sent food to Germany in W W 2 ? No

Should Israel send food to Gaza ? It does