Roma: Let them Stay

by dc Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:58

I promise I'm not trying to be a troll here, but I do have some questions about this.
It seems that there are at least 2 ways that this story is being spun. First, we have
organizations who are supporting the rights of these people to stay in the country.
Some of the arguments have included those related to persecution and discrimination that
have been outlined by the SWP statement above. Then, on the flip side you get a Romanian
spokesperson on the national airwaves yesterday saying that some of these people actually
own houses in Romania and not in as bad a situation as some organizations would have you believe.

The main question I'd have on this is: how bad must things be at home for people to subject
themselves to the sort of living conditions at that roundabout? Is a life in Ireland, living
without adequate sanitation, sending young children begging on a busy road, in (lets face it)
Ireland's most horrible "summer" *really* better than what's available at home?

I'm currently finding it difficult to believe that it is, but I'm open to hear opinions of others
on this site, because I would generally tend to support the feelings of many contributors here
(save Tara / Shell to Sea etc), but this is the first time I actually find myself thinking that
deportation might not actually be the worst option here.

Any comments?

Thanks,

dc

by Revolutionary Socialist Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:27

The Roma gypsies were slaughtered by the Nazis during WW2.
Ireland is repeating the oppression of the these indigenous people by ethnically cleansing them from Ireland.

by observer Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:39

The Roma are not indigenous to Ireland so what's your point? Millions of people were murdered by the Nazis and millions more by revolutionary socilaists. Are you suggesting that we allow all of their descendants to move to Ireland? Cop on. Every state has regulations governing who is allowed to enter and stay within its borders. These people are here to beg not to work. They can do that at home.

by Unobservant Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:45

Gee Observer, how humanitarian of you. And theres you pretending to be a socialist on another thread.

The Roma people are living in squalor. They can do that at home too by your logic only there it won't offend your eyes.

by observer Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:50

I never said I am a socialist. On a humanitarian level I do fell sorry for the Roma, especially their children. But ask yourself the question. Who is it that is abusing those children? The Irish state or their parents? If I sat with my children out in the street begging they would be taken from me. The Roma have the same capacities as you and I. They choose to employ them in dysfunctional ways. It is up to them to change, not society in general to accomodate itself to them. ANd the same applies to Irish people in the same situation.

by AdamMaguire Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:56

Let me compare and contrast this press release from the SWP with an actual news article:

From the SWP:
SWP condemns police harassment of Roma in Ballymun and says ‘Let them stay!’

From Pavee Point (via Breakingnews.ie):
[Ronnie Fay] said the garda operation was professional, with no conflict with the Roma people.

There have been no reports of harassment, heavy handed tactics of anything of the like.

A further quote from the breakingnews.ie article:
Gardaí said 57 Roma boarded a double-decker bus peacefully and were taken to accommodation where they will remain until repatriated to northern Romania. It is understood they will leave Ireland tomorrow.

Something tells me that Pavee Point would be talking about Gardaí harassment and abuse if it happened, don't you?

From the SWP:
The gardai told the Roma they were to be rounded up and deported at 5 am on Tuesday 24th willingly or unwillingly, despite the fact that some Roma have an injunction from the High Court staying their deportation for fifteen days.

The interpreter provided by the gardai was extremely unsympathetic to the Roma and did not provide them with an opportunity to express themselves.

From Pavee Point (via Breakingnews.ie):
Ronnie Fay, of support group Pavee Point, said that, last night, gardaí in Ballymun invited members of the group to attend a meeting at the station where they were encouraged to leave.

A further quote from the same article:
However, it is understood that up to 35 members of the community, including children, remained at the site and would be making submissions to Minister for Justice Brian Lenihan as to why they should be allowed to remain in the country.

Topline from the RTÉ.ie report on the matter:
Most members of the Roma community living on the M50 roundabout in Dublin have been moved to sheltered accommodation pending their voluntary repatriation to Romania.

So they weren't rounded up and told they'd be deported willing or unwilling, they were well aware of what was going to happen in advance of Gardaí arriving and those who went did so voluntarily.

And they were given an opportunity to express themselves, too.

It sounds to me like the SWP was (rightly) left out of the loop on these discussions and only heard about them after the fact. If they showed up at all it was only to try and make themselves relevant to the whole issue. If it takes a ficticious account of what actually happened to make them look like the heroes, so be it.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwaucwojql/>Here.

by Kevin Wingfield - swp Tue Jul 24, 2007 17:11 kevin at swp dot ie 086-3074060

AdamMaguire accuses our press release of spin and distortion. There was none. The press release was issued at about 1.30am last night after the Roma had been told they would be rounded up at 5am. As has been widely reported the roads leading up to the roundabout were blocked off by gardai at 5am and most of the Roma were boarded onto a bus to take them for deportation. The press reports support groups claiming (quite accurately) that the Roma were "coerced"
If anyone else was subjected to rounding up in a dawn raid, told they were to be sent regardless of their will, offered derisory sums to go quietly and witness gardai closing roads to facilitate all this, I think they would say the action was heavy-handed and confrontational.
The swp statement was therefore accurate and based on what the Roma told us through our supportive interpreter and what we witnessed.
I have no argument with Pavee Point who have done an excellent job in providing support, advice and legal representation to the Roma. The attempt by AdamMaguire to put the swp in contradiction to Pavee is, I would say, an example of "spin".
This thread is not principally about the swp or what is reported in the newspapers. It is about an affront to any notion of human values indicated by the State's dealings with these unfortunate people. Those not obsessed with political sectarianism might consider addressing this issue.

by JOhn Boy Tue Jul 24, 2007 17:24

..were there no other countries between Ireland and Romania where they might have sought refuge/a better life?

Ireland has always been a soft touch for people coming here.

They weren't beaten out of the country so I see no rhyme nor reason for the crocodile tears being shed.

by Ronnie Tue Jul 24, 2007 17:48

Fair play to the swp on this.

by Katherine Evans Tue Jul 24, 2007 21:40

Interesting to see the Socialist Workers Party raising their banner for the first time in a while. Obviously they are using that label at times when they don't want to use "People Before Profit" or even "Anti-Nazi League"

The Romanian Embassy is not some representative cultural organisation for the Romanian people. It's an agent of the rotten and corrupt government of Romania. The Roma are subject to some of the worst racism and discrimination of any ethnic minority in Europe. The Romanian Government are a part of this. They are to blame for the mess that Romania is in today. The Romanian Government have brought Romania down the neo-liberal road big time. This will inevitably result in discrimination, poor housing, unemployment, etc. and the Roma as an ethnic minority will be on hand to be blamed by Romanian government for the ills they created.

The SWP slogan of "let them stay" is not the best. It implies that they should be allowed stay on the roundabout. Begging and living in a roundabout is not something socialists should ever support. These people should get jobs and homes. Socialists should also call for jobs and homes for all, Irish and migrant. Socialists should also point out that the Irish state and Irish capitalism will deliberately play on ethnic divisions and language barriers, etc to scapegoat people. We need class politics to fight racism & deportations... not the liberal "lets all sing cumbyaa" attitude.

by Fintan Lane - Irish Socialist Network Wed Jul 25, 2007 00:11

The issue here is the treatment of immigrants (economic or otherwise) and NOT whether one does or doesn't like the SWP, who, of course, are quite right to highlight the negative state intervention against the Roma people camped on the Ballymun roundabout. The state clearly wants to resolve this situation by ejecting all of these people from the country. Odd how Ahern and company don't take the same hard line with regard to the many Irish "illegals" in the US! Or maybe it's not so odd.

I must say that the following sentence from a post above is indicative of how some people are losing the plot:

"The SWP slogan of 'let them stay' is not the best. It implies that they should be allowed stay on the roundabout. Begging and living in a roundabout is not something socialists should ever support."

Is this for real? Do you really believe that the SWP, or any other socialist, wants these unfortunate people to continue living in squalor in a makeshift camp on a roundabout?

C'mon folks, stick to the issue.

by Kenny Wed Jul 25, 2007 05:32

I am very sympathic towards the plight of The Roma people living on the roundabout, it must be hell with the bad weather, and it obviously being a roundabout, but a couple of points if I may.

how much can these people care for their kids if they have them living and begging beside such a busy motorway intersection as the M50 ? I am not suggesting they book the raddisson but surly there must be more safe places to set up camp ?

Having said that I would like to ask the social servies why these people were not afforded temporary emergency accomodation while they go through due process ? disgracefull if you ask me.

Now having said that I am in favour of their deportation if they cannot prove that they are either here for humaniterian reasons, something which myself and others including some Romanians doubt, or that they are keen to work, get a job, contribute to society and pay their way like you and me,. There are many people from Eastern Europe since the opening up of the continent who come here to find a better life, the majority do not camp on the M50, beg etc. but they work beside me and you every day, doing jobs supporting themselves and not reliant on handouts from anywhere or anyone.

by kevin wingfield - swp Wed Jul 25, 2007 16:05

RTE is reporting that the remaining Roma have left Ballymun for deportation feeling their deportation is "inevitable" despite the fact that legal challenges to their deportations is still pending in the courts.

A thousand welcomes---how are you!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0725/roma.html

by AdamMaguire Wed Jul 25, 2007 16:06

I can see little but spin here, frankly, as I've stated already.

If these Roma were told they would be put on a plane no matter what they wanted, or were treated in a heavy handed manner by Gardaí I find it hard to believe that Pavee Point would keep quiet about it - on the contrary they've made it clear that the Gardaí have acted professionally through out this.

by all accounts except your own, those who left the camp (and all have now, by the way) did so willingly. They were no doubt told that they would have a hard time convincing the High Court of their need to stay, but telling them otherwise would have been a lie (after all, it's the High Court's role to interpret and judge on the basis of law. They couldn't claim asylum here or get any social welfare under Irish law and they couldn't stay here unless they were self sufficient, which they are not). If you consider that coercion that's fine but there's no denying the fact that under Irish law they never had a chance of getting anything - whether you agree with that law or not is irrelevant.

Now, your painting of this event as a "dawn raid" is very one-sided.

How on earth can you consider something a raid when the subjects in question knew it was going to happen? How can it be considered confrontational when they had already agreed to this happening well in advance? How can you say they were coerced when they were merely told that Irish law didn't provide any outlet for them? As for the timing of the "raid", perhaps the Gardaí decided to take those willing to leave at this time because it would cause the least interruption to traffic in the area (as you said yourself, they needed to close the road, imagine doing that any time after 7 or 8am).

by mick b Wed Jul 25, 2007 16:13

In April of this year the Romanian government acknowledged in the European Court of Human Rights widespread ethnically-motivated violence against the Roma community in the early ninetees . In the newly privatized eastern European economy , with land becoming a highly valued commodity , pogroms launched against the Roma community met with the tacit approval of the Romanian authorities .
The cover up for the Romanian state's role in those pogroms continues today according to this report from the European Roma Rights Centre:
http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=2748
It all squares with the talk from the Romanian embassy about Roma people being “scroungers” and “on the make”. Living or working in Ballymun you can see the reality : impoverished , poorly clothed people , eating chips along the roadside , queuing up to use public telephones .
Ballymun itself is being privatised at the moment and its people pushed out of the suburb’s high-value centrally located land into dog-boxes on the periphery of the estate to make room for the likes of IKEA . There is a lot of sympathy in the area for the Roma . It’s a disgrace that there are hundreds ,if not thousands, of vandal-prone flats lying empty in Ballymun at the moment awaiting demolition while these people are forced to live in tents .

by kevin wingfield - swp Wed Jul 25, 2007 16:20 kevin at swp dot ie 086-3074060

Adam et al,

I wont address the detail of your comments any more as there is a far greater gulf between us.

When people are reduced to this terrible existence and then face the stoney face of authority kicking them out, you either react with anger and revulsion and side with the oppressed or you seek shelter in legalistic double-speak.

I suppose that is the difference between the left and the right.

Anyway I hope something like this never happens to you and your loved ones.

by Gerry Nobody Wed Jul 25, 2007 17:06

Why should people who emigrate to Ireland integrate anyway? It seems to be a central fallacy of people in rich countries that others emigrate to their land for vague reasons like its values or its freedom. People come to countries like Ireland for a better life because poverty or discrimination has led them to leave home. One of the reasons many of these countries are poor is that wealthy countries like Ireland are living on the rotting hulk of their poverty. Then, when they move here to enjoy a small fraction of the benefits of this mess, we kid ourselves into thinking that our culture is somehow inherently superior and that they must adopt our values because we're in a position of economic superiority.
I was in one of those sandwitch places yesterday..Celtic sandwitches or something and this typical petty tyrant manager type is barking at the Polish girls working there to 'Speak English!' Probably because he knows they were slagging him off and he couldn't understand and above all, probably because he knows he deserves it...

by AdamMaguire Wed Jul 25, 2007 18:14

Fair enough, Kevin - allow me to explain myself.

I believe that more than not, people in this situation are victims of fortune. I appreciate the fact that, without education of any description it is very hard to break a cycle you are born into. I also appreciate that these people are subject to plenty of suspicion so that even if one of them was able to read and write, they'd still get turned away for many jobs.

As far as this community in particular goes, I have not seen them do anything other than beg so I'm not willing to just assume that they are troublesome. I understand that they may be, but they deserve no more suspicion than anyone else I don't know.

I'm willing to believe their story that the campsite in Ballymun was a relative haven for them and I find it hard to digest some of the stuff coming from Romanian officials about them too.

All that said, I don't believe that it is Ireland's role to rehabilitate and house this community and I do believe that us doing so would only cause more harm than good. That's not working on the assumption that they're all freeloaders looking for an easy ride - but if you assume their story is true and reflective of the Roma community at large in Romania then it wouldn't be a surprise to see them travel in their thousands to the only country that actually gave them something like welfare.

I think the State has done what it can, frankly. It cannot put them through the asylum process and it cannot give them work permits (because they haven't applied for them) and it cannot give them welfare. I didn't agree with the decision to limit migrant workers from the newest EU countries (because I believed it will just create a black market and problems like the one we see now) but that is the route that was taken.

What I think Ireland should do now is take this issue to EU level and find an international solution - only there can the problem be solved as discrimination against Roma is not a Romanian issue alone. If we don't do this it will take generations to solve the problem and all of Europe will have to deal with similar problems (as some have already).

The cycle needs to be broken - education is the key to that. If the Roma don't want to play ball then I have no sympathy for them (I do for their children, of course, because it's not their decision but they bear the brunt of it)... I believe that the vast majority would make the right choice though and indeed I suspect the main reason why young children are not being educated in their communities already (in Romania etc.) is because they face discrimination in schools or because the parents can't afford to have them in full time education.*

The reason I took issue with the SWP press release isn't because it was sympathetic to the Roma, far from it. It was because it is distorting what actually seems to have happened and will only contribute towards the argument of those who want to send them packing no matter what. Pavee Point have been at the fore of this issue since it arose first and while I disagree with what they call for I'm far more willing to believe their account of the events to date.

* By that I mean that they need children at home to help them in their day to day or even to go and get work, or beg etc. That's a situation that's all too well known in Ireland, even today.

(By the way - if you wander over to my blog you can see that I'm not changing my tune to suit this argument - I've already written at length on what I feel should be done in this situation - www.adammaguire.com.)

by Diana Kelly Thu Jul 26, 2007 02:04

Due to the fact that for the last few days I've been sleep deprived and also had to go into work, I will not go into much detail but I will come back to it as soon as my time allows it.
My name is Diana Kelly, I am the girl who translated for the Romas camped at Ballymun for the last 2 days. I was there almost 40 hours non stop I got to hear everyone's story, I talked to the Garda, with the locals, with many of the press members, and I have all the details of what went on. I worked closely with Michael Collins and Ronnie Fay from Pavee Point and the solicitor helping the Roma commuinty, Pol o Mhurcu. And if u ask all of them they will tell u that at least 50% did not go willingly. The Gardai never manhandled them, but they kept them under pressure, they made sure that their solicitor was never present when they were brought at the Garda station, it was never properly explained to them what their situation was, they were offered derisory amounts of money: 40 euros to go voluntarily, they received threatening calls from Romania telling them that they are already in a lot of trouble, and if they did not go voluntarily their situation will worsen.
Until about a few days ago I had a strong prejudice against Roma gypsies, but it all changed when I met them and spoke to them and heard their stories. In the course of 2 days they made me feel like I was part of their family, and now I am sorry things did not go well for them and I am terrified at the idea of them going back, knowing that the Romanian government will make an example out of them, so others will not follow in their footsteps. I was looking through some of the Romanian articles on the internet, and believe me those articles are not very 'sympathetic'. It's all about the shame brought onto Romania by the Roma gypsies, and nothing about the appalling conditions that drove them to living in a roundabout in Dublin in appaling conditions.

To be continued at a later date...

Diana

by anon Thu Jul 26, 2007 05:40

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwauojgboj/
Rosanna Flynn of Residents Against Racism comments on the voluntary repatriation of the Roma people at the M50.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/election/media/mp3/Rosanna%2...0.mp3

by leftie Thu Jul 26, 2007 09:17

Well done Diane. However, in the light of you being described above as a member of the SWP by Kevin Wingfield, I'm confused by the following comment you made:

"Until about a few days ago I had a strong prejudice against Roma gypsies, but it all changed when I met them and spoke to them and heard their stories."

Huh? Don't the SWP run racism awareness classes? Fair play for your honesty but it's a strange confession from a member of a Socialist Workers Party.

by Diogenes Thu Jul 26, 2007 16:33

There was no legal basis for allowing the Roma to stay, however i would like to ask a couple of questions: 1. Why did the Authorities not act until after this story hit the headlines? 2. Is it right to serve legal proceedings against people as a group? 3. Why did the mainstream media not report the massive discrimination the Roma face in Central and Eastern Europe? 4. Finally, does anybody find it coincidental that this story allowed Bertie to bury the news that his evidence to the tribunal was being seriously questioned this week?

by Feminist Thu Jul 26, 2007 17:09

The European Feminist forum has an active organising space for Roma women,
as does Pavee Point for Irish travellers. the negative media patronisation of
a unique community is quite typical of its usage by a right wing government.

http://europeanfeministforum.org/spip.php?rubrique92

by Jacqueline Fallon Thu Jul 26, 2007 23:35

The Romanian Government should be very embarrassed that Roma gypsies felt the need to flee so far from Romania to escape the discrimination and neglect they experience at the hands of the Romanian Government. The Roma gypsies are the Romanian Government's responsibility and the EU should put more pressure on Romania to treat the Roma gypsies in the same manner as other Romanians and make sure they receive at least a basic standard of education, so that they can avail of a better standard of living besides begging and foraging through rubbish bins and going to such extreme measures as selling all their possessions to set up camp on a motorway roundabout in a very distant island.

I find it extraordinary that the Roma gypsies were allowed to remain at the M50 roundabout in Ballymun for so long. It was an absolute miracle that nobody was killed given the hazardous place they set up camp. I don't know what they were thinking of setting-up camp there, but it was not acceptable and I'm certainly not impressed that they chose such a dangerous site for their children. They should have been removed to appropriate sheltered accommodation on the first day to prevent an accident occurring or prevent an outbreak of infectious disease.

I don't know what sort of legal assistance they received while here, but a solicitor should have been present at all interrogations/interviews between the Roma gypsies and members of An Garda Síochána - we are all very well aware that the Gardaí cannot be trusted to have respect for peoples' civil rights. I also hope the 'authorities' here sought assurances from the Romanian Government that the Roma gypsies would not be imprisoned if they were sent back to Romania, as it would be an absolute disgrace to send them back knowing that they could be facing a prison sentence as well as confiscation of their passports. The Roma gypsies have suffered enough hardship without being jailed as well.

p.s. Chuig: Feminist - Who do you think you are berating people for their typing/spelling mistakes, please have a bit of respect and condescend to come on down from your sanctimonious intellectual throne!