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What are the real government policies being pursued in modern Ireland ?

category national | rights, freedoms and repression | opinion/analysis author Sunday May 13, 2007 09:08author by Brian Report this post to the editors

This is just an attempt to see if some of the large social changes taking place in Ireland right now are the result of deliberate government policies, aimed at controlling dissent, rather than just random acts.

"I could honestly say that I regretted having wasted my time contributing all my life to this awful system, to this denial, to this con democracy, this cod democracy, that was being administered by cod civil servants, cod public servants. Because that is all I would call them. I mean contributing both as a teacher and even in just living here. In a way I had wasted 40 years functioning in an environment that I found out didn't exist."(1)

Those strong words are by Micháel O'Sheighin, from Rossport, and unfortunately I think they reflect quite well the experiences of some Irish people who have seen the modern Irish state at close quarters. We are told we live in a democracy and then sure its supposed to be the case that the policies pursued by the state are the ones freely chosen by the people and all that but you'd wonder if that is what really happens right now. So anyway I am just attempting in this article to trace the threads of four 'real' government policies that I think are being pursued in modern Ireland with the aim of controlling dissent by subtle long term social engineering techniques. I hope I'm wrong and that these policies are not being pursued but if you get fed up enough about what is going on in Ireland right now then you might be inclined to believe me! I know this is a mouthful :-) but in deference to some well known policies from the troubles I call them bureaucratisation, indebtedisation, cosmopolitanisation and isolationisation:

1. Bureaucratisation
It is I think perfectly obvious that any properly functioning police state, like famously the former East Germany, always tries to get centralised government control over all economic and social activities within the state. In that type of society you have to get permission from the state to do virtually anything e.g. East Germany compelled all businesses to get centralised licenses to be allowed to exist etc etc. This brought with it certain advantages of political control, for example:

(a) It created a vast intelligence database that the domestic intelligence agencies used to keep tabs on the population. Whenever a person would register for anything they would have to supply a huge amount of personal - they might have felt irrelevant - data which unknown to the populace was systematically indexed and used by the huge secret police apparatus.

I respectfully submit that many people in Ireland right now, especially Social Welfare recipients and the self employed, spend an enormous amount of time informing the state about all aspects of their lives via hugely complex and rigorously enforced state regulations. Also nearly all the self employed have quietly become subservient to state licensing schemes, like even recently private security personnel and driving instructors. It has also become much more necessary to have tax clearance certificates and P.P.S numbers which might point to the way that the Irish intelligence agencies are indexing this data hoard!

(b) In countries like East Germany sometimes 'bureaucratic' problems would start to arise whenever the citizens fell foul of the state for some reason. Dissidents in the Eastern Bloc countries found that the state regulations, that controlled their lives so much, discriminated against them making their lives a misery.

Obviously there is great potential in Ireland for the state to act like this against citizens who offend it. Drawing again on the experiences of Rossport I notice that Micháel O'Sheighin says this about some of that community's dealings with Mayo Co. Council:
"At various times, they were refused photocopies. Other times they'd get them but be held up all day. There was all this petty bureaucracy nonsense trying to frighten people, trying to intimidate them."(2) There are also some very serious examples of state agencies turning on Irish citizens and seeking to put them out of business using various 'bureaucratic' regulations like in the case of the Department of Agriculture and its dealings with John Fleury (3) in Offaly and the Hanrahan family in Tipperary (4). I personally think that Michael Lowry should be looked upon as an Irish dissident because of his attempts to root out corruption in the semi state sector which in turn drew harassment on him by state agencies:
"Here is one of the things I want to get off my chest: I was disappointed that a system in any democracy would download to such an extent on any individual or citizen. I have felt a sense of State oppression against me. I got a sense of the power of the State's institutions, how domineering and controlling they are when they turn their sights on you." (5)
Of course like all dissidents, East and West, they are always assailed by whispering/slander campaigns against them and this is as true in Ireland as elsewhere. Michael Lowry has obviously had his character assassinated in the media over pretty minor tax matters while the Hanrahan family have been able to identify Frank Dunlop, the former government press spokesman, as one of their tormentors in the usual whispering campaigns.(6)

(c) It has a useful psychological effect on both the population in general and on state employees in particular. What happens is that as people get used to just filling out forms and spend half their lives abiding by all kinds of regulations they then start to lose their independent character and common sense. For a lot of people abiding by the regulations - and the laws that underpin them - becomes a kind of a religion and they begin to dehumanise and lose touch with the 'common sense' aspect of the regulations.

I will give one example of that type of psychological wearing down of people's intelligence and 'common sense'. In rural areas in Meath it is extremely difficult for anybody to get planning permission for any type of building with e.g. structures like two storey houses - as opposed to dormers - being pretty much banned completely on the grounds of being visually intrusive. This is especially true of any building that would be visible from Tara because we are told that the Council takes particular care to preserve the view from that historic hill. Also any ordinary house, or any kind of development, being built within any of the historic areas of Meath - like near Tara - has to undergo an archaeological dig to determine if there is anything historic there and if so the house is of course never built. (All these regulations btw cost the ordinary people of Meath enormous sums of time and money to abide by.) But then the same Council makes no objection when a six lane motorway comes crashing through that landscape that they claim to be so keen on preserving ! And in fact even many of the ordinary people see no contradiction here, after all the motorway comes under a different bureaucratic heading and I'm sure they have all the forms filled out ! So as you can see, I hope, the government employees, and to an extent the ordinary people, start acting like intellectless bureaucrats after a while under this overly bureaucratic type of atmosphere. That is how the famous 'nomenclatura' was created in the Soviet Union, an army of unthinking and heartless state employees that can afflict all kinds of inhumanity on the citizens in the name of state regulations and laws.

So if you think about it maybe you can see that this wave of bureaucracy, which is crashing over the heads of Irish citizens right now, has 'good' qualities to it from a corrupt state's point of view ! Hence maybe it is not an accident that the Irish state is developing along these lines right now.

2. Indebtedisation
It is obvious now that the economic boom in Ireland is by and large caused by individuals and families borrowing large sums of money, in many cases taking on huge 40 year mortgages to pay for astronomically expensive housing. Imho what is happening is that capital flowed into Ireland under large scale government borrowing from the mid 70s to the mid 90s and that has been replaced by this large scale personal borrowing. Just like in the case of that state borrowing, this boom has to be followed by a corresponding bust because people inevitably have to tighten their belts to try and pay back the huge debts.

I think it is fair to say that the state has encouraged this effect by, for example, sponsoring 'social and affordable' housing schemes that actually just involve encouraging poor people to borrow heavily. This is in total contrast to the past where social housing meant building houses at the expense of the state and giving them to people at a nominal rent. So why would the state want to sponsor this splurge of personal borrowing? I can think of two reasons. Firstly maybe the banking institutions (and international banks ?) have huge sway over the Irish political system and can simply force this policy through. This policy after all is obviously in their interests, making, as they do, huge profits out of it in wide interest rate differentials and extortionate banking charges.

The other point is that this process of indebtedness brings with it useful social control aspects. I think a person tied to a huge mortgage often becomes obsessed with money, unlike the more footloose rent paying person, and might trim his/her political or rebellious instincts in order not to scare off the next paycheck! I'm convinced anyway that if you ever have some grand war crimes tribunal in Ireland in the future asking why government employees didn't speak out you'd be told that they had the mortgage to consider ! This 'had to pay the mortgage' might turn out to be the Irish equivalent of the German 'only following orders' !

I think therefore that this indebtedness has a subtle but definite social control aspect to it.

3. Cosmopolitanisation.
I use that phrase as meaning the same thing as de-nationalisation, a kind of process of changing a country in order to make a nation lose its sense of unique identity. I think the best example of that type of policy can be seen in the history of the Soviet Union. The Soviets always felt that it was easier to control their Union if they could de-nationalise (and incidentally de-Christianise) the various peoples they controlled. They did this firstly through a myriad of complicated migration policies e.g. by encouraging Russians to migrate to the Baltic States in order to dilute their sense of identity and by various forced migrations of races like the Chechens. And secondly they used the media and education systems to play down the historic and separate identities of the various races, including even the Russians themselves as Alexander Solzhenitsyn relates:

"During the 20’s the very understanding of Russian history was changed—there was none! And the understanding of what a Russian is was changed—there was no such thing! And what was most painful, we Russians ourselves willingly walked along this suicidal path. The period of the 20’s was considered the dawn of liberation…. I recall from my school days that even the word ‘Russian’, such as ‘I am a Russian’ sounded like a call to counter-revolution…. But everywhere was heard and printed the term ‘Russopyati’." [a curse word for ‘Russian’].

The Russian national character and sense of solidarity then broke down under this pressure, which left them more vulnerable in the gulags:
"All nations in the Gulag crawled in order to survive and the lower to the ground they got, the better the chances of survival. But Russians in ‘their own Russian’ camps were the lowest order."
Based on these experiences Solzhenitsyn feels that nationalism is very important for everybody:
"Before the camps, I regarded the existence of nationality as something that shouldn't be noticed—nationality did not really exist, only humanity. But in the camps one learns: if you belong to a successful nation you are protected and you survive. If you are part of universal humanity - too bad for you." (7)

So that process of encouraging people to feel as if they are just one atomised member of 'universal humanity' as opposed to feeling as an integral part of a unique nation is what I am calling 'cosmopolitanisation'. As we stand today I think that a wave of cosmopolitanisation - particularly the large immigration inflow - is hacking away at the intellectual and emotional roots of Irish nationalism:
Intellectual
In some ways what we are seeing now is a sort of race for the intellectual high moral ground on this issue, with the winner being able to throw down 'racist' and 'fascist' insults at the loser coming up the hill !lol. As I see it the modern roots of Irish nationalism derive from the period 1890-1910 say when our ancestors rebelled against the bland uniformity of the British Empire and sought Irish independence in order to protect and foster what were seen to be the unique characteristics of the Irish race. At that time they obviously emphasised things like the Irish language, folklore, music, Gaelic games, the struggles of the Catholic Church in a Protestant country, and Irish genealogy and modern Irish nationalism grew from this into a feeling that we needed Irish Independence in order to protect this heritage and these characteristics. This feeling culminated maybe in the various Irish Race Conventions held at that time, like in Dublin in 1896 and New York in 1916, and in expressions of people like Pearse saying that Ireland should become 'not free merely but Gaelic as well' etc. Sometimes this is known simply as the 'Irish Ireland' movement and I think you can see that there is now a faint whiff of 'racism' and 'fascism' beginning to attach itself to phrases like that in the intellectual atmosphere now in Ireland. Its obvious to me anyway that the new thinking about 'inclusiveness' for the new immigrant population is in fact intended to have the effect of casting aspersions on what is, I suggest, the intellectual underpinnings of Irish nationalism. Again I'm suggesting that this is no accident, this imho is one of the reasons why huge immigration inflows are being sponsored by Irish government agencies (8), it is quite consciously intended to weaken Irish nationalism and identity. One might think looking at this that there is no reason why Irish identity couldn't coexist quite happily with the increasing immigrant population, and maybe it can but that is not what our government has in store for us in my opinion.

Just look at the church for an example of this kind of thinking. According to the recent census 87 per cent of Irish people are Catholics and the proportion in some areas, like Mayo, is probably a lot higher. Yet despite that background when a group of nurses wanted to set up a crib in Castlebar hospital recently they were told that they couldn't because to do so would be "racist" and uninclusive of other faiths.(9) The management of the hospital explained that a crib would be the thin end of the wedge, if they allowed that they might have to allow a crucifix ! As you can see this is quite a change from a few years ago and clearly 'inclusiveness' is in fact being used to crush the faith of the majority. I'm convinced that the same thing is going to happen to Irish culture. Already it is the case that the Irish language requirement in the Gardai and for some university courses has been dropped "in the context of an increasingly multicultural Ireland."(10)

Emotional
What seems to be happening on an emotional level now in Ireland is that Irish people are beginning to feel like strangers in their home localities. They are beginning to tune out of really caring about what happens here because they don't identify with the country anymore, it just doesn't feel like home. This is being noticed by some recent visitors to Ireland:
"There was such manifest sadness in the eyes of the few “old Irish” we encountered. Their homeland is becoming unrecognizable to them."(11)
It doesn't feel like their homeland because most, or very many, of the people they meet as they walk down the street don't seem like people of their own ethnicity, and don't use the familiar accents and even language that Irish people are used to. So Irish people are starting to feel rootless, and are beginning to lose their identity in their own country.(12)

One other point, which I think ties in with this, are the wholesale changes being made to the Irish landscape. Clearly Ireland has become a concrete jungle of motorways and anonymous housing estates which makes the whole country look indistinguishable from California or Germany or wherever, which again weakens the sense of a unique Irish identity. One person writing to the Irish Independent has mentioned how people feel anonymous in this landscape:
"Urban sprawl increases traffic, congestion and related problems. It also creates an anonymous society which leads to social isolation and related ills, such as crime, violence, drugs and the culture of death."(13)
I think again that this is a deliberate planned effect pushing the ever expanding motorway network, they want people to feel like nobodies in a bland world, they are easier to control that way!

Anyway like cutting Samson's hair :-) when a people lose confidence in their right to a separate national identity, which is what happens when those intellectual roots are cut off, and when they psychologically lose the sense of an Irish homeland then Irish nationalism weakens making it easier for supra national organisations, particularly the EU, to control us. This I think is the reason why these policies are deliberately pursued like this. It also has the effect of helping to control internal dissent in Ireland. Just look at Rossport as an example and ask yourself why has that protest proven to have infinitely more teeth than any other recent protest in modern Ireland. I think you'd have to admit that the people out there amidst an heroic landscape, steeped in Irish folklore, language, music and historical traditions - maybe even with strong religious traditions as well - simply put up a much better fight than protests which are based in transient communities situated in bland housing estates off some motorway or other.(14) The powers that be in Europe know this perfectly well, they know that peoples and communities with a strong cultural and ethnic identity are more of a threat to them than the cosmopolitan or multicultural type. So in fact I think they are quite deliberately destroying that unifying and enriching sense of identity among the Irish people.

4. Isolationisation
(That's a perfectly good word btw :-) you just have to keep going when you get lost in the middle!lol) According to Julianne McKinney, who served as a US intelligence agent in Berlin during the Cold War, the Soviet Union had a policy of trying to "divide and isolate the populace" in order to maintain its control over the subject peoples of the Soviet Union.(15) The thinking here was that strong community structures made it difficult for the KGB to isolate those dissidents that they wished to harass, so where possible they would prefer to break down those communities everywhere.

Again if you look at Rossport you can see why a government might feel threatened by communities and groups much more than by individuals. What started there was that about two people initially dug their heels in and opposed the pipeline, then in court about five people were prepared to go to jail rather than be bullied by the system, then after they were jailed maybe about 1,000 people in the same community rose up and challenged the authorities. Its obvious that when you have a strong community that sticks together like this then the government has much more problems than in those parts of Ireland where people have been jailed in almost total community silence and anonymity. Its the existence of a tight knit community itself that causes problems for the state, it would be much better from their point of view if people didn't have wide circles of friends, family or neighbours that will defend each other. You need to isolate people to crush them !

I believe that governments at a high level know this very well and maybe you can see some of that thinking in events like the crushing of the mining communities in England in the 80s. They were probably the most close knit and rebellious communities in Britain before they were wiped off the map, some would say on the basis of exaggerated economic problems.

As well as the question of communities like this being able to sustain long strikes and protests against the state I think there are two other specific reasons why governments prefer to break up community structures. One reason is that the flow of information in tight knit communities is often directly by word of mouth from some primary source e.g. there is a good chance that somebody might personally know a guy in the Gardai say and will pass the information along to everybody else whereas when people are isolated their only source is the, typically government controlled, mass media.

Another reason is that when people are not used to knowing a wide circle of friends etc. they start to lose the capacity to judge people properly. In otherwords they find it hard to accurately assess a persons integrity and even sanity and stuff like that. In the Soviet Union this then allowed the KGB to go around claiming that such a such a dissident was 'mad' or an 'enemy of the state' and the general public just believed the state agencies when they said this about a person because they themselves had become such poor judges of character. Don't think for a second that this issue is only relevant to the former Soviet Union ! If you follow the Irish media with respect to intelligence whistleblowers you will be amazed at how many of them are called 'Walter Mittys' by the media and the state. In fact even Frank McBrearty has been fighting a lonely battle trying to testify in the courts in the teeth of "sinister" government attempts to compel him to go for repeated psychiatric examinations.(16)

So anyway I think it is a cardinal rule of political control that the state would like to destroy any sense of community or comradeship that may be developing, in so far as it can. Hence I think people should be a bit suspicious of any changes that they observe in that line in Ireland today, and should ask themselves if some of those changes are deliberate. A simple example might be all those complaints about tight knit Dublin communities being transported out of the city into anonymous housing estates where no facilities were provided - even shops - which would have allowed them to develop a community atmosphere. That might have been the whole idea !lol Another example might be where community facilities are run down in rural areas, like Post Offices, Garda Stations, banks etc, using what maybe over hyped economic excuses to crush the community atmosphere? I personally think you could make a case that all the current social outlets in Ireland seem to be under siege from government regulations and suspiciously unremedied transport problems. Think of over the top security procedures - necessary to comply with government drug laws - hyped up drink driving campaigns, the smoking ban, and shorter opening hours for nightclubs, all leading to a situation where many people no longer go out and meet people and instead stay in and become slaves to the mass media! This again might not be far from what the government actually wanted to achieve with things like the smoking ban. A few other specific areas might be worth looking at in the same vein:

(a) Some of the older companies in Ireland are home to a staff with a strong sense of community and solidarity. I would suggest companies like Aer Lingus, the Irish Sugar Company and Irish Ferries, all of them under various stages of siege or abolition, and maybe not accidentally!

(b) Believe it or not I would include boarding schools under this heading. They tend to be characterised these days as very expensive and exclusive but in the past many poor people went there, especially to get around transport problems in rural areas. Anyway they fostered a very deep sense of community and are now in various stages of collapse, supposedly from random problems like insurance costs.

(c) I actually think that Bebo and internet chat sites are seen by the powers that be to be a threat in that they can build up quite a few friendships and a community atmosphere. (I think as well that is why some sites discourage idle chat making among their users, anything to stop strong trust and groups forming.) Its obvious when you follow the Irish media that the powers that be don't like those sites and are hyping paedophile stuff to discredit them. (Which is not to denigrate the seriousness of that problem outside of the internet.) As well as this Irish second and third level institutions have been encouraged to introduce special rules designed to block Bebo and the other social networking chat sites.(17)

(d) It seems to me as well that some of the new community policing and ASBO type rules that are being rolled out are now being used to stop communities forming in some areas. It seems to me anyway that three people at a street corner doing absolutely nothing but chatting are now being accused of 'anti-social behaviour' - ironically enough !- and are being asked to move on by the community police.

(e) Maybe some of the planning and local authority rules are deliberately designed to break up communities e.g. in rural areas by denying the locals housing, and in small towns by introducing draconian parking arrangements that drive people out of those towns into more soulless out of town shopping centres.

I know most people reading this are saying "yeah right! there is no deliberate long term plan here!" but I think people ought to be a little more suspicious, and unfortunately, maybe a little less naive about the workings of the modern EU controlled Irish state. I think we have to get away from this idea that the Irish state is run by morans who don't know what they are doing, it could be that the people are the foolish ones who are not scrutinising properly what the state is really doing ? Because if you look again at some of these drifts you might feel that this 'isolationism' policy is a better way to explain what is really happening than what we are usually told. I think even if you look at what has happened to the close knit community of Ballymun you might wonder if this type of "social engineering" is what is happening there rather than a genuine effort to regenerate that community.(18)

So I think we should stop criticising the powers that be in Ireland as incompetent or unintelligent, their project Ireland is progressing very well thank you very much !

Footnotes
1. The Rossport 5 "Our Story" (Magheramore Co.Wicklow, 2006) p.75.

2. Ibid p.74.

3. For references to John Fleury see http://oireland.tripod.com Chapter 1 footnote 19.

4. For the Hanrahan family see the Irish Independent 3 Feb 2007.

5. Sunday Independent 1 April 2007 p.33.

6. Irish Independent 20 May 2000.

7. Alexander Solzhenitsyn "200 Years Together" (2001-2002) quoted at http://www.vdare.com/allen/070427_solzhenitsyn.htm.

8. For which see http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78897 .

9. “The crib is very symbolic and while you wouldn't describe it as offensive we don’t want to set a precedent that is difficult to move away from. It could easily lead to a crucifix...." (http://archives.tcm.ie/westernpeople/2005/12/20/story28...2.asp). The 'racism' reference is from the Irish Family Press newspaper at the time of this controversy. A discussion on the controversy can be read here: http://www.castlebar.ie/board/2006/jul06/133189.htm . It became a big issue in Mayo and the HSE eventually had to give in.

10. A report on the Department of Irish Folklore in UCD:
"While recognising the major importance of the Irish language material in the Department's teaching and research programmes, the PRG recommends that in the context of an increasingly multicultural Ireland, where deemed appropriate, the Irish language requirement for entry to year 2 and 3 be relaxed. " (http://www.ucd.ie/quality/reports/summaryirishfolklorer...c.doc)
This letter was written in response to the dropping of the Irish language requirement for the Gardai :
"However, by changing the rules on Irish, admittedly for all applicants, the Government is making the kind of error made by British and Dutch governments. That is to say, they are downgrading the norms and culture of the State in the vain hope that this will somehow make the State seem more tolerant. In reality, however, immigrants, as in Europe, will take this as a signal that integration is not required and full participation is not expected.
Furthermore, what signal does this action send to the many who speak Irish and are proud that their language is an official language of the State? Is Irish to be official only for native-born Irish and not for others? What other norms will be dropped in the near future to make us more inclusive? Lowering standards has been shown to be a failed concept and once that particular Rubicon has been crossed other ideas, standards and norms cherished by the Irish people will surely fall on the altar of multiculturalism.- Yours, etc,
TREVOR TROY,
Connaught Place,
Athboy,
Co Meath."(http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=509...=date)

Also its now apparently forbidden for people to register their addresses in Irish with An Post because:
“Tá go leor inimirceach ag obair linn agus ní bheadh siad in ann Gaeilge a léamh.”(http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=20260)

11. http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archives-2006-...6.htm .

12. Here are just a few references that show how some Irish people are beginning to feel that their culture is being threatened by the extent of the immigration inflow:
"And what was once a wonderful urban village neighbourhood in Dublin, complete with artisanal shops of long tradition and history, has long since had those shops removed and replaced with call centres operated by ... [various immigrant groups.].....That's the erosion of culture at work and it has led to an erosion of values, as neighbours no longer know or care for each other..."(http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=18768&postdays=0...rt=24)
"Our Identity, Culture Language are under threat like never before.What we have witnessed over the past 10yrs regarding Mass Immigration to our Country beggars belief!!
.... Social engineering thats what it is!!" (http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=17946&start=576&...747b5)

13. Letter by William A Thomas in the Irish Independent 30 April 2007 p.33.

14. To see the way that these factors have strengthened and inspired the Rossport community see The Rossport 5 "Our Story" (Magheramore Co.Wicklow, 2006) p.59-61 and this from p.96:
"People will tell you locally that the last battle from some prophecy or other will be the battle of Ballinaboy. To me this is an echo of the awareness of people back to the Bronze Age time. An awareness that having a grip on a place is tenuous and can be destroyed."

15. "KGB strategies were addressed in some detail during these discussions [discussions entitled "Understanding the Solzhenitzyn Affair: Dissent and its Control in the USSR"'at Georgetown University]. It was noted that the KGB's success depended on the extensive use of informant networks and agent provocateurs; and, following Brezhnev's rise to power, on the use of drugs and
psychiatrists for further purpose of manipulation and control. Shadowing, bugging, slandering, blacklisting and other related tactics were also cited as serving KGB purpose. Participants in
the conference agreed that the KGB's obvious intent was to divide and isolate the populace, to spread fear, and to silent dissenters. Agencies of our own government are on record as having employed
precisely these same tactics on a recurrent basis." ( http://www.naicr.org/aps/McKinney.htm ) . For some examples of how intelligence agencies isolate and control individual dissidents see http://oireland.tripod.com Chapter 1.

16. "McBrearty Jnr has branded the move as "sinister" because the proposed psychiatric and psychological assessment will be carried out by practitioners nominated by the tribunal....The tribunal is obviously intent on not allowing me to get on with my life even though the state has examined me three times."(Sunday Tribune 12/11/2006 http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_scope=TribuneFTF&id=...c&FC= )

17. http://www.tomrafteryit.net/irish-schools-being-blocked...orks/ .

18. The Craig Gardner Report of August 1993 stated that the authors initially looked upon Ballymun as a 'community in crisis' but instead concluded that "Ballymun is an estate with a very strong sense of a community identity, and a level of community activity which is very high."(http://www.brl.ie/pdf/Ballymun_A_History_1600_1997_Syno...s.pdf p.63. (Its obvious when you read that account that the Ballymun residents were very active opponents of Dublin Corporation and the powers that be.) From here on indymedia in the same vein: "For all its problems, Ballymun has always had a strong sense of social identity."(http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73355).

Inho this sort of thing is always bad news from a corrupt governments point of view so I am suspicious about the way they moved in to demolish the flats in the teeth of resistance from many local residents, one survey that was undertaken "included 539 face to face interviews and demonstrated that 86% of the residents of the flats preferred partial or full refurbishment to the demolition of their homes."(http://web.archive.org/web/20030717231324/ourworld.comp...2.htm).

After the flats had been mostly knocked the government unveiled surprising new Social Welfare rules which seem, to this observer anyway, to be designed to disperse the community atmosphere that developed in the flats. See http://www.oneparent.ie/pdfs/1_Rent%20Supplement%20Camp...n.pdf and http://www.indymedia.ie/article/66799 . From comments on the latter article: "City planning out in Ballymun is beginning to look more like some form of "social cleansing"." And this by John:
"This has been happening for some time.

I would ask anyone to point out a single area of Dublin city that has been "regenerated" and where after five years anyone on a salary similar to the original occupants could afford to live there.

Smithfield, Temple Bar, in fact, the entire city centre looks like going this way over the next few decades and the children of families that have lived there for generations can, as far as the government is concerned, make do with a 2-bed semi in Clonee and a three hour commute to work / family."

This is the current view of some local activists about the 'regeneration' process: "By involving as many people as possible in its activities they [the local BPBP activist group] plan to turn around the disastrous effects that “regeneration” is having on the social fabric of Ballymun."(http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73355). Is this by accident or design ?

author by Jim O'Sullivan - Community Alliance-Sligopublication date Sun May 13, 2007 10:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Brian,
Your piece is interesting and while reading it I am reminded of our experience as a community group here is Sligo. Our group formed around the issue of the privatisation of local services and the lack of consultation with communities by those in charge of running the affairs that concern communities. It was very noticable that initial meetings attracted considerable numbers and that there was a deep seated wish to express views on the various issues that had up to then been kept under wraps. To cut a long story short, as our group grew and gathered momentum, the establishment struck back and we were attacked and villified, not just from those from the right but to our amazement, those local politicians that had traded for years on the basis that they were of the left, they too joined in. In fact the the charge to undermine our position was led by politicains who would have you believe that they fight in the interests of the community and not individuals as is the trait of the large parties. The point here being that our malaise is not just caused by parties of the right controlling and using the population in general as a source of wealth, (production units), but when people of the so called left join or are elected to positions of power, they too succumb and having gained a head space at the trough, they fight to keep their spot and maintain the status quo. The interests of the people take second place to self interest.

A classic example of the prevailing reality that those that have political power in Ireland regard the commuinity merely as a crop to be reaped and exploited is the current ongoing theft by moble phone operators who run what is referred to as "subscription services" Every mobile phone owner in the country has lost money through the activities of these operators as they place misleading ads, usually for ring tones, wallpapers, prize draws etc or target phone owners by sending unsolicited texts, usually telling the phone owner that he has won call credit or some other prize and to claim all that is needed is to text in reply. When the phone owner repsponds to the ad or text, they are unknowingly actually triggering an agreement that they want to become a "subscriber" and this, unbelievable as it may sound, allows the operator to systematically enter the phone owners call credit and remove money, usually on a weekly basis and it is not necessary, under existing legislation for the operator involved to give anything in return for the money taken. In our view money taken in return for nothing is theft, yet although this ongoing exploitation has been brought to the attention of the relevent government Minister and the stopping of this practise could not be simpler, they refuse to take any action clear in the knowledge that a small handful of people are becoming extraordinarily wealthy and they contribute absolutely nothing in return. The Minister fobs off requests to intervene by saying that the mobile phone business is "regulated" by an entity called RegTel. RegTel however is a self regulatory agency paid for by the same operators that are making vast fortunes out of the existing lack of proper controls.

It is not hard to conclude that the thinking behind the "privatisation" policies of the government is to allow small numbers of people exploit the community at large and the notion of public services is being dismantled to facilitate this. Every need and want is laid open to exploitaion. We are even witnessing determined efforts to "privatise" the Health Service to serve the same ends.

And of course these very wealthy few reward the members of the political establishment who create the circumstances that allow them to exploit and plunder. That is how certain indiviuals are handed large sums of money in cash by their landlord etc etc.

author by cablepublication date Sun May 13, 2007 12:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The dumping of toxic sewage in Co Wexford's fields is the best illustration of what's happening in Ireland today! Don't let them get away with it!

author by paul o toolepublication date Sun May 13, 2007 12:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Excellent article.

Show up and support enough campaigns that you believe in and you see the same faces over and over. There is a growing concern among some activists that theese reople show up as individuals but act as a group. Everything ive showed up for over the last couple of years to support they are there. They, having succeeded in destroying real anger and motivation they dissappear and show up again at the next grassroots movement in its infancy to destroy it also.

The only group not infiltrated and broken up successfully is the Shell to Sea campaign- simply because the men who all decisions had to go through were unfortunately (or fortunately for the campaign) were in prison.

author by We The Peoplepublication date Sun May 13, 2007 13:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think the above articles discribe exactly what is happening in this and other Countries.

The reason? A New World Order. I believe that if People are aware of the bigger plan , then one can than see what is coming down the track to a Street near you.

Remember the Prisoner T.V. Series?
This Series depicted the World we are living in today. People for decades were asking what was the Prisioner series about. In the second Episode , number two described the Village as ..'a perfect blueprint for World Order'.

This is acheived by the 'Order out of Chaos ' method; Problem-reaction-sloution scenario. It has worked for Centries to control populations into submission. Create a problem , get a Public reaction , then come in with the solution , and People will and have accepted this curtailment of their Fundamental rights for a more 'secure' envirnment.
Take a look at the recent Criminal Bill from Mc Dowell. At the same time in America ,the Bill of rights has been trashed.
No right to silence here , no Habeas Corpus there.
The Dollar is collapsing. The desire for a World currency is on the cards and when this has been acheived , microchipping the population with e-money chips that also contains everything about you and of course - no cash. Total control.

Our National Flag in the Dail has developed four Colours - a gold fringe.
This is a Flag of Military/Martial Law. Go check.The quest for a Global Village has been ongoing for many Decades. The idea was devised centries ago.
Certain People have been put in key positions to make this plan happen. Your lacal planning office is extremely responsible for much of the bigger plan to happen.

One of the strongest opposition to this plan is Nationalism. This must be smashed in order to dissolve any real threat to the plan.

You have described how it is done in your article. The break-up of Families and Communities around the Country through over the top drink drive Laws , the closure of the local Post Offices and Shops ,Banks, Schools ,Handball alleys , Cinemas ,Halls , the refusal of planning permission etc. the list is endless.

Of course, any body writing or talking about this stuff are supposed to be sent for eh...Psychological asessment?
B.C.N.U.

author by maire - C.H.A.S.E.publication date Sun May 13, 2007 14:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Very interesting article, giving food for thought.

As part of an organisation C.H.A.S.E. that have exhausted the democratic system yet we are still left with our most important issues that of health and safety of our community completely ignored. And we are not alone, the Rossport Five issue is partly the result of the same failed process. The Hanrahan family history is too painful to even discuss.

When you have control and you curb the democratic process as did Martin Dempsey when he amended legislation and took important key decision making away from elected local councils, and gave sole power to government appointed city and county managers, this paved the way for society to really become disfunctional in the democratic sense.

The Strategic Infrastructural Bill which is now in force means that the "fast-track" planning regime envisages a special division of An Bord Pleanála serving as a one-stop shop, and will apply to anything that the Government, or even a city or county manager, deems to be of "strategic importance" - even profit-orientated schemes emanating from the private sector e. g. national monopoly tolling hazardous incinerators, and road building around or through Tara.

Taking all power away from the public does not serve democracy, and it may be real government policy, what a thought.

author by Davekeypublication date Sat May 26, 2007 15:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thanks for your well thought out and thought provoking article, it sure seems like orchestrated social engineering is at play. However I'm not sure our politicians have the intelligence to plan this, perhaps it's coming from the beaurocrats or big business in Ireland and the EU.

To: We The People

You mentioned the gold fringe on the flag, is this Maritime or Martial law and do you know what the difference is?

Also, I don't know if it's true but I was told recently that this change occured on 22 Feb but can't recall anything significant about that date, do you know anything about this?

author by Davekeypublication date Sat May 26, 2007 15:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I would also like to add that perhaps our traffic lights are also part of this social engineering.

I drive at night in Dublin for a living and see first hand how atrocious our traffic lights are and they are getting worse. Unco-ordinated and badly timed lights are causing huge delays even at night when there is very little traffic. O Connell street is a good example, there are now approximately five pedestrian lights all badly co-ordinated even though it is essentially two one way streets with very little traffic coming from side streets. I could talk about similar examples all over the city, especially new pedestrian lights which are not co-ordinated with main lights, it's very frustrating to deal with.

My point is that I wonder is this part of social engineering by keeping people stuck in their cars for long periods of time. It must be either that or just gross incompetence.

author by We the Peoplepublication date Sun May 27, 2007 23:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You are probably correct in assuming that the Politicians do not possess the ability to conceive such a Plan.

But their ‘advisors’ do.
People like P.J.Mara who lives in Kinvara Co. Galway, is one of the most effective spin Doctors for Fianna Fail and possibly the ‘opposition’.
Remember what Rockafella said, ‘ .it does’ent matter who the People vote for, they vote for us in the end.’
Poly – tics i.e. many bloodsuckers, have nothing to do with Government. Even the Dictionary Lies.

The idea of ‘opposition’ or ‘choice’ are just words to convince People that they have, freedom of some kind and that some Day, whenever that may be, things will be better, all because there is a thing called, hope. As I mentioned in some Article…” if Politics changed anything, it would be abolished.”
The system is designed not to work.

For example, the Tribunals.

We the People get Jail, while certain others get…. Tribunals. There is no need for Tribunals at all. It’s a giant Money-spinner.
All that was needed was for an Article 40 to be brought before the High Court and entered upon by the Judge, who would – if doing his sworn job (Article 34-5), to have ALL Documentation brought before him/her to enable him/her to enter upon an IN-quiry (not EN-quiry) on the matter.
Never any need for a ……Tribunal. The whole thing is a RACKET to use up the People’s Money and make the legal mafia… BILLIONAIRES, all with YOUR Money, OUR Money, the People’s Money. Why let a Judge expose the corruption on a weeks or monthly Salary over a ‘short’ period of time, when we ALL can keep a lid on it, never allow the corruption be exposed and become multi millionaires in the process.
Ask yourself, how many members of the legal mafia are in Jail…. for anything?

The GODFATHER OF ALL THIS public spin was an Ed Bernay who wrote many Books on the subject one of which was entitled, ‘The engineering of consent’. Even the Nazis used his methods to brainwash the Population into believing a lie.’ Shout and repeat a lie long enough and People will believe it (Hitler)’.
Of course, nothing has changed. Today the situation remains the same. History repeats itself Day after Day, year in year out.

The REAL culprits in the equation are the MEDIA. These are the stoppers to the People having access to the information to open up and expose the GRAND WIZARD for what it really is. A Lie.

In a previous detailed Article some time ago, I mentioned about the meaning of the Wizard of Oz. The Straw man represented the fiction of us all as ‘citizens’ in a system and not the real us , you and me. The Tin man or Tax identification number imposed upon us is the other angle of the fiction.

Did you ask for a PPS Number?

Do you recall asking for a BIRTH CERTIFICATE to convince yourself or anyone else, that you exist?

In Court, WE, make the ‘Word Flesh’, NOT a Barrister. You are your own Attorney, not a third party. You hand over your power when engaging a member of the Bar, uncommonly know to us as ‘British Accreditation Research’. It’s a franchise they buy from London.
You end up handing over your power of attorney to THEM. Only at that time is their Licence valid. People are not aware of the power they possess. THE PROBLEM IS, THEY DON’T TEACH THAT TO US IN THE SCHOOLS OR COLLEGES.

WE’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW.

On the issue of Maritime Law. Well, this is a precursor to Martial LAW. Why fly a Maritime flag on Land?
Admiralty/Maritime Law is Pirate Law in a sense that is made up as one goes along. A Ship is under the Jurisdiction of whatever Flag it flies even if is in a Foreign Country.
So, here we have a Maritime flag on display in our Courts and in the Seanad and Dail since 22-2-2007. WHY?
I cannot get an adequate answer from ANY Member of the above. One answer received was,.’ this is a Ceremonial flag and was agreed by the Committee of privileges and procedures some 20 years ago.

SINCE WHEN HAS THE DAIL, SEANAD AND THE COURTS BECOME A PLACE OF CEREMONY AND , THIS FLAG IS ONLY ON DISPLAY SINCE 22-2-2007 , NOT 20 YEARS AGO.

These Civil Servants are either bad spin-doctors or they believe the bullshit.

Another way to rob People’s Land is through ‘bad Council Management Policy’, to allow accidental flooding. Land under Water comes under what Law?

If times are quite in the Court on the car crash scene, traffic lights may be…?
No, I’m getting a little too cynical here.

Related Link: http://www.educate-yourself.org
author by Davekeypublication date Mon May 28, 2007 19:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

To We The People

Thanks for your detailed and informative message, that certainly doesn't seem to be a proper explanation for why the flag is now flying in the Dail, given it's important significance of martial law. Are we to assume we are now under martial law, the whole thing is very strange. I also noticed last week that there was no Tricolour on top of City Hall, just the EU and Council (masonic) flag, I haven't been monitoring this, just noticed it, but I'm going to watch out for this also.

It's all very scary to observe the subtle changes occuring and nobody seems to notice; our loss of democracy, sovereignty, civil rights, independance all just seeping away in the background. It's so slow, subtle and apparently unrelated that nobody seems to connect the dots or wake up.

Now we have the same crowd in for another 5 years, it doesn't bear thinking about. Not that the 'opposition' would be much better. As you said, the same people win either way.

author by dogroughpublication date Mon May 28, 2007 22:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Brilliant analysis.

For those who are too stupid to follow the subtle and insightfull logic of this article, I will permit myself the following summary for those (like myself) whose intellects fail to measure up to that of the author who must surely have got a very good mark indeed in his junior cert:

"The Irish peopel (unlike the author of the article) are far far too stupid to understand what is good for them".

There now, you have it all..........

author by We the Peoplepublication date Thu Aug 02, 2007 21:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well, they may be made stupid through 'medication'. The Tap ( water tap) is the channel used to force medicate the Population into being docile and subservient. It really is not their fault , all the time.

In previous Articles I posted up the additives that are dumped in the drinking Water.
These are,again, Alum.Sulphate, Chlorine Gas, Sulphuric Acid and Hydrofluorosililic Acid ( not real Fluoride - Industrial waste material). I,m not a Chemist ,but when one boils Water to make tea ,it changes the structure of these Chemicals to make a Monster that has damaging effects on the Body and Brains of everyone.

I 'like' the cartoon image on the link below which depicts the mass medication of the Population.

You cannot repair the damage if you are exposed to these in the first year of life. It is irreversable.
Alzheimers,many cancers,hip fractures,early puberty , docility , the list is endless.

Yes, as davekey mentioned it is correct about that the eu and masonic flag that flies over city hall. In fact the Dublin City Council Logo of three Castles is a masonis symbol. Check out the second most important Masonic Lodge in the World in Molesworth Street and discover the Logo on one of their Ties for example. Recommended to be worn if your a defendant in Court.

If we keep our eyes on what is happening in America , we can see what is coming down the track over here soon enough. For example, the Dollar is to be replaced by THE AMERO and Canada , Mexico and American are to linked to form the North American Union , just like our own lovely European Union. Google image Amero to see that it is identical to THE EURO. www.naftasuperhighway.com is worth a visit

AND NOBODY IS SUPPOSED TO KNOW.

Related Link: http://www.infowars.com
author by Brianpublication date Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Go raibh míle maith agat for all the kind comments, clearly I am not the only one who thinks this, there is a lot of disillusionment out there. I am sorry I was so slow to reply, I was just thinking about what Paul O'Toole said and wanted to reply to that in depth.

Jim O'Sullivan
Muchos gracias! and I think a lot of activists have those experiences these days. The media, opposition politicians, the legal system frequently, behind the scenes just seem so controlled and corrupt right now, although the mass of the general public are possibly not very aware of what's going on on the ground. You also hear that same story about left wing politicians from people like Peter Preston and unfortunately many others. I think what has happened to the Green party has opened people's eyes to the level of control or whatever that seems to be exercised over even the smaller left wing groups. (If anything that maybe part of a pattern: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81544)
"That is how certain indiviuals are handed large sums of money in cash by their landlord etc etc. "
The other issue that raises is how gullible and maybe uncaring people are right now about their political destiny. The explanations that are offered are so threadbare, looking at it historically I don't think that people would have stood for that in past. One newspaper even printed a big exclusive that somehow there was an obscure mathematically formula that was supposed to explain the currency transactions, yet they didn't even try and describe this rocket science algebra! I mean people will believe anything right now....look at the explanation we are given about Gormley and Tara, they are blatantly insulting peoples intelligence right now..

cable and Davekey
I think when you look behind a lot of media spin I think there is much that is wrong about modern Ireland alright, not least the transport system, and the water supply/pollution situation, if anything its positively chaotic..

Maire
I think its even the case that sometimes when Councillors get out of line, i.e. try to stand up for the public, they are victimised by the Council officials. In Meath Andy Brennan, the 73 year old deputy Mayor of Navan, who has turned up at some of the Tara protests, has been threatened with an injunction by the council if he turns up again in their offices. In Wicklow Nicky Kelly has also got some unbelievable treatment at the hands of the Council.

We the People
You know that in an interview on radio sometime ago Justice Flood said that he thought the two opposing barristers that he faced in his tribunal were deliberately playacting, trying to string out and run the tribunal into the ground. (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/barristers-fury....html) Then after the powers that be do this, artificially lengthening the process out for years, they then extol the merits of secret internal Dept of Justice enquiries, which if anything greatly resemble the legal practices of the former Soviet Union.
"...Criminal Bill from Mc Dowell. At the same time in America ,the Bill of rights has been trashed..." and Gordon Browne is introducing similiar laws in the UK. It is interesting alright how these countries seem to act almost in unison like that...
Unfortunately I think you could be perfectly right in what you say. Look at the question of a possible long term financial crash for example. I mean it does look like so many people rely on credit for their day to day lifestyle that in the long run the system is bound to run out of credit and when that happens it will all come tumbling down? Maybe its beginning already!
"Poly – tics i.e. many bloodsuckers" I thought you were referring to a certain website there, Freudian slip!lol lol .

Paul O'Toole
"There is a growing concern among some activists that these people show up as individuals but act as a group. Everything I've showed up for over the last couple of years to support they are there. They, having succeeded in destroying real anger and motivation they disappear and show up again at the next grassroots movement in its infancy to destroy it also."

There absolutely is something afoot, and its about time somebody raised the issue. Here is just my tuppence worth about the way some campaigns go as regards infiltration by the powers that be. Its only a bit of guesswork I guess, but I will use a fictional scenario to try and show what I think is happening. I will use a hypothetical - and completely daft and therefore obviously fictional - scenario. Ok so you have just a simple campaign, involving demonstrations and stuff, where a particular group want to set up a football club in some back of beyond place in Ireland and for some reason the powers that be want to stop this club going ahead:

Maybe there was always talk about setting up the club going back ages but nothing ever came of it, or ever looked likely to, until this particular summer when it really looked like taking off. One well attended meeting and a few people got together and proper plans seemed to be in the offing. At that point - just after it looks like it was going to happen anyway - a strange thing happens we may say. A large group comes from outside to help out and brings with them probably a sponsor. They seem to know what they are doing, and in no time plans are in the works for a pitch and all the bureaucracy of aligning with an outside league are all well in train. Also because this outside group brings to the table so many advantages - organisational experience, contacts, money - naturally they begin to dominate the resulting organisation. (After all they arrived very early on too, just a fraction after the time when the group looked like being set up anyway.) So you can be sure that the chairman of the organisation, the secretary etc are all members of this outside group.

So then give it 6 months during which you will find this organisation will make great strides towards its aim of founding Ballymagash Rovers FC where many had failed before! During this time this outside group - which I am saying are the infiltrators - will do trojan and apparently sincere work on behalf of the emerging club. If you were watching these activists in action you couldn't fault them at all, 95 per cent of the time anyway. Just a few little things might be visible if you looked closely:
a) They might target just a few key figures that they feel might be a threat to them going forward. So maybe a handful of people find themselves dropped by the secretary from the mailing list, and from notification from the meetings, but a small enough number that could be easily explained away as a mistake.
b) Actually a small bit of deliberate discourtesy to some, genuine, activist might put that person off coming back to those meetings, which could be part of the plan. Cut him/her short at a meeting in a way that others just think is a clash of personalities etc. They might also particularly treat people like this who turn up new at a particular meeting (as opposed to long established members of the club) in order to prevent the organisation from growing, from building up too much momentum.
c) A little manipulation could be practised on those few key members of the emerging organisation who are not part of the infiltrating group.(Don't forget most of the key positions are usually filled by this infiltrating group, if for no other reason than because the real activists are genuine volunteers, and sometimes cannot devote as much time to the group as these fake activists who are probably secretly paid by some outside party.) Maybe a false account of a meeting that that person wasn't at, maybe an account that showed some members in a bad light, members that the group wanted victimised...etc ...stuff like that.

Anyway the point is that for at least a time the group will seem to be genuinely trying to get the club up and running, but in the long run of course they intend running it into the ground. The thing is that they know that this point will come and they will prepare for it by setting up that standby of all modern intel practises: the tame opposition. So during this stage when all seems to be going well a number of other infiltrators will be establishing themselves as the real avant garde gung ho types who you can rely upon to fight to the end. If there are altercations with the police they will get arrested or injured etc. These aren't agent provocateurs as such, they are just polishing their legends so that people will think they are the true blue activists and will follow them if there is a split later.

The infiltrators know there will probably be a split later because they intend in time to crush the organisation using the key organisers who are working for them. So in due course you find that the people at the top table are getting mighty cold feet about this or that demonstration that really looks like it might achieve something - as opposed to the other demonstrations that probably weren't going to get very far anyway and which the infiltrators were happy to support. They could also hype up legal problems, financial problems etc in a way that might put off anybody from persisting with the club. Confusion as regards times and things can also creep in in a mysterious way that serves to lower the numbers at the big demonstration. Then in time, say just before it was going to be accepted into the League, it could be that the important infrastructure of the club could be taken away - money, mailing lists etc - because after all most of this came in with the outside infiltrators, and if they wish they can take it away again. Probably then the group will try and survive, and will elect those aforementioned fake opposition activists to key positions, in which case it will never go anywhere of course. Then in this atmosphere of splits, and long term activists falling away, the chances are that the original real group will just give up and the Club will never be formed, even though it might have been if these infiltrators had never turned up in the first place.

And that's maybe how it works for many protest groups in Ireland right now imho. Of course that's probably no use to your average activist trying to figure out what to look out for, because obviously there are also perfectly genuine outside activists that are only trying to help and impossible to distinguish from the fake type. But I will throw in a few suggestions all the same:-):

1) There is no point in being suspicious of that fella who just came in, looks a bit out of place, and is propping up the door jam at the back of the hall looking like a guard. He probably isn't one ! If you are looking for these infiltrators then look at the top table! The powers that be in this country probably have a serious handle on all political movements in Ireland, they will have every group well infiltrated with activists that fit the part completely, and which have been involved in the group almost from the beginning.

2) Which brings me to the second point which is that people shouldn't judge the bona fides of an activist by the amount of time or effort he/she has devoted to a campaign. Unfortunately you can be sure that these infiltrators have been there, as I say, almost from the beginning and they have plenty of, secretly well paid, time and effort to devote to the cause.

3) Watch out for that fake opposition thing. Sometimes you can even see this at meetings or other fora. It goes something like: X, the secretary say, is making a point on the podium and Y interrupts from the floor and they both launch into some heated argument, with both being infiltrators. Some reasons they might do this include:
a) Firstly maybe some of the crowd would agree with X, some with Y, and both would then be carving out a kind of leadership position over their nascent followers within the group. (Its always the aim of the powers that be to install fake leaders over all shades of opinion. It doesn't matter at all what those opinions are, its just when they get these leaders installed then they can manipulate the wider political scene to their hearts content.)
b) Also it might just be to disrupt the meeting. You might need two people acting this way to do this because otherwise the podium might just not bother to reply to the heckler/questioner and so the argument would lapse too quickly and therefore not disrupt the gathering, or other forum the argument was made in.
c) Another tactic is that they can use these arguments as a way of subtly getting people to agree on a certain consensus. To go back to the previous analogy maybe you could have two of these infiltrators arguing about what pitch should be used, one of them saying that leasing Ballydebobs GAA pitch is a nonstarter while the other guy might be saying that renting out the local rugby club is a bad idea. But both of them might be agreeing that building their own pitch would be a daft impractical suggestion, and that might be the very suggestion that the infiltrators didn't want adopted. The consensus that is allowed to develop within the false debate becomes more easily the groups consensus.
Anyway they can play all kinds of tricks like that so I'd say beware of these false debates!

4) I think too that it is very dangerous if important decisions are taken at small meetings. It would be much better if the big decisions are taken publicly at big meetings, I think anyway. There is no point in taking the view that you don't want your enemies to find out what you are up to, or you don't want the media to highlight divisions within your camp. The fact is that the powers that be will be reading a transcript of those meetings as soon as they happen - and will leak whatever they want from that to the media- so this need for secrecy will achieve nothing I'd say. Far better off having the whole process as open as possible, and even to be more open maybe in talking to strangers at meetings. That guy who asks all sorts of questions is definitely not the government agent! They don't have to ask questions, they know the whole score anyway, that guy is more likely to be the genuine activist who is only trying to figure out what is going on. So I would suggest more openness, even gossip, and less secrecy, to be a good thing.

5) This might be controversial but I would suggest that these 'infiltrators' frequently try and steer people towards using the courts. I totally accept of course that there are totally genuine activists out there that advise people to take court cases and stuff, but I am still sticking with my theory that a lot of the fake types for some reason encourage people to seek legal remedies for their activist related problems. Maybe because that route is so expensive and time consuming, and populated with not a few corrupt characters, that they know it will sap the energies and resources of these groups with, usually, little to show for it in the end.

As I say that's just my tuppence worth on the subject....

author by PeterP - WikiSpookspublication date Thu Apr 28, 2011 08:21author email peter at wikispooks dot orgauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

The WikiSpooks site already hosts the pdf's of Brian's two books ('Orwellian Ireland' and 'In defence of Conspiracy Theories'). I am considering posting selections from the corresponding Indymedia threads on WikiSpooks as regular wiki-type articles too. I am aware of the licencing requirements and, since the site has no problems complying, there is no need to seek Brian's (or Indymedia's) approval. Nevertheless, as a courtesy I would prefer to inform the author. It is also possible he (or others here) could assist and/or make other information available for posting.

I have been unable to locate an email address for Brian - hence this post.

I can be contacted on the above email address. A suitable PGP key is available from the 'Anonymity/Privacy' side menu of the WikiSpooks site.

Closing comment: Brian's books/Indymedia articles constitute some of the best stuff I have read anywhere on the general subject of the ubiquitous Orwellian surveillance and control now exercised by British/US SIS's over western populations and their allegedly democratic governments anywhere - and that from someone who knows his way around the subject pretty thoroughly - FWIW

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