So what if it was the Syrians who bumped off Gemayel? He was a pro-Israeli death squad fascist

by JFH Wed Nov 22, 2006 16:30

“even if it was the Syrians who ordered his assassination, they have more justification for defending their interests”

We mortals will never learn. After all the bloodshed that has been spilled since history began; has not our intelligence or reason not developed one iota? Is it not possible to listen to a higher plane of thought, communication or teaching? Whatever side one takes up!

by Red Puma Wed Nov 22, 2006 17:50

It is unlikely that the Syrian state carried out this assasination. They have nothing to gain from his death and it could scupper their attempts to get into the good books of the US and the EU. To have carried out this killing within hours of renewing diplomatic relations with the US puppet regime in Iraq makes no sense.
It is also unlikely that he was killed by someone within his own organisation. The most likely culprits for this assasination are Hezbollah. This may be Hezbollah sending out the message that if they don't get their way on the formation of a national unity government that they will launch a sectarian war against the Lebanese christians.

by St Maron Wed Nov 22, 2006 18:17

Sheik Pierre Gemayel was an admirer of the organisation of the Nazi party, although the party he founded (El-Kataeb -the "Phalanx") is properly called "The Social Democratic Party".

He had genuine left-wing views but Chrisitians were concerned when approximately 750,000 predominantly Sunni Arabs poured into Lebanon (then a Christian-majority state, the only one in the Middle-east) and upset the religious balance. Mass immigration, anyone? Since the Syrian invasion hundreds of thousands of Syrian workers were made citzens in controversial circumstances in 1994.

Interestingly the original poster neglected to mention that Syria originally supported "The Lebanese Front" (a coalition of Christian parties, representitive of most Lebanese) and their combined paramilitaries the Lebanese Forces against the "Lebanese National Movement" (Muslims). The minority Muslims originally controlled 80% of Lebanon within weeks of the outbreak of the Civil War, however the Christians fought back and smashed the LNM.

Towards the end of the Seventies, however, Syria switiched sides and the LF were quite happy to accept Israeli help (supplies) when together with Lebanese Army regulars they successfully opposed the initial Syrian invasion. Division within the Christians resulted in a reversal of fortunes and Syrian interference in internal Lebanese affairs.

I think the original poster considers Pierre Gemayel a "facist" because he is Christian? Was Gemayel anymore a "facist" than Hassan Nasrallah? Or would that be "Islamophobia"?

And he will be missed by many fearful Christians.

by Declan Wed Nov 22, 2006 18:33

I think you may be right.
As recent Dispatches programme on British television showed the rivalry between various secular, Christian and Muslim armed groups that persists since the end of the long civil war.
The original poster should remember that their is practically no political or religious or civil group in Lebanon which does not have blood on its hands over the years.
While Hezbollah has remained active as a terrorist party with as highly trained guerilla army the majority of other political groupings have abandoned armed struggle and become purely parliamentary political parties except for a few extreme elements.
Hezbollah and Syria have always had a love hate relationship. The Hezbollah are happy that Syria withdrew from Lebanon last year but they are unhappy that the withdrawl gave the parties behind the so-called Cedar Revolution,modelled on the Ukrainian orange revolution, greater influence and brought them closer to the Americans.
The month long war with Israel this summer gave Hezbollah the upper hand for a while.
Israel collectively punished the entire Lebanese nation by crippling the country's infrastructure and wrecking the economy. Hezbollah emerged as the percieved defenders of Lebanon.
But since the war has ended the Lebanese people are awakening to the reality that Hezbollah is doing the biding of Iran in attacking Israel for which Lebanon reaped the whirlwind.
Hezbollah is not about to give up its power to a US and EU supported government stacked with pro-Western politicians while Syria becomes becomes increasingly co-perative with the US "War on Terror."
Nasrallah and his Hezbollah henchmen on the orders of the religious leaders in Iran, the real stringpullers behind the Iranian regime, will try to disrupt the Lebanese political system as much as they possibly can. A renewed civil war among violent armed groups or else just continued political disorder in Lebanon will mean that Hezbollah's defacto state within the Lebanese state will remain under their control.
Western countries including Ireland have sent troops as part of the UN peacekeeping force to Lebanon. If Hezbollah can cause enough disorder in Lebanon as their brother Shia militias as backed by Iran have created in Iraq then the UN might run scared and withdraw their troops.
We may well witness more assassinations and escalating political violence in the weeks and months to come.

by jeff Wed Nov 22, 2006 20:14

The Maronites have been oppressed in the past, by the Ottoman Empire, who used the Maronites present day allies, the Druze, to massacre them, in the 1800s.

Yes, there was the massacre of Palestinian refugees by Phalangists in 1982. However, the Palestinian refugess also faced discrimination against them by Suni Lebanese, and Druze. As for Syria, despite being known today as the sposers of Hizb'Allah, none the less conducted a major massacre of Shia villagers in western Syria the same year the Sabra and Chatilla massacres took place.

Personally, I have an admiration for the Maronite people, the last Christian Arabs. The author of this thread claims Maronites are anti-Arab. Why, then, do they speak Arabic and write in the Arabic alphabet? Indeed, as St Maron asks, are the Phalange any less fascist than Nasrallah?

This is not the first attack against Maronites. Last year, a number of bombings were carried out against Maronite churches, and these occured in Maronite working clas areas. Maronites do feel threatened; the Shias are rising, both in numbers and strength.

As to who is responmsible for the assasination, I remain open minded. I think it is possible that either rogue elements in Syrian intelligence or the Israelis carried out the murder. Rogue elements of Hizb'Allah may be carrying out sectarian attacks against Maronites, and Hizb'Allah may feel they are riding on the crest of a wave after the summer, but a high profile killing such as this would upset the balance too much. Syria itself has no reason to engage in this. The only suspects I feel have something to gain are those I just mentioned.The rogue elements in Syrian intelligence may have done it for resons I currently find hard to deduce but Israel has more obvious reasons for de-stabilising Lebanon.

When Israel attacked Lebanon, they claimed they were going sfter Hizb'Allah. In fact, they attacked civilan convoys after giving them permission to leave, they attacked UN posts, and they attacked actual Lebanese army bases. Despite this, they only managed to get ground troops in as far as two miles into Lebanon.

So the Israelis have plenty of reason to ferment violence. Who know, two months from now, a civil war could be underway, and we'll be watching the Israelis send the troops back in. If Hizb'Allah have a war against Maronites, Druze and Sunni to contend with to the north, the Israelis would jump at the chance to have another go from the south.

by Wahid Gordja Thu Nov 23, 2006 01:33

This is a good debate. Long may it continue. A few points.

the Falange (or Phalange or Phalanx) name indicates that they are Fascists par excellence. They were inspired by the Nazis and modelled on the Spanish Falange, one of the two fascist groupings that brought the Fascist Franco to power. The Phalanx is a reference to fingers on one hand, signifying different strands of the (in this case Maronite) nation uniting under one command. A bit like Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuehrer. They also organise fascistically and behave fascistically. Just because they use the name 'Social Democrats' now doesn't mean anything. Even the Nazis called themselves 'Socialists'.

Nasrallah doesn't advocate or glorify ethnic cleansing in anything like the same way as the Phalange do, even if he is a nutty religious zealot. Political Islam, even if it is conservative and religiously bigoted, doesn't equate with fascism. Hezbollah fighters want the Israelis out, they want justice for the Palestinians and they want a national unity government in Lebanon.

In contrast the Falange want to turn on their fellow Lebanese. consider the following extract sent from Lebanon today: "During the recent war, Falange members toured East Beirut in a cavalcade chanting 'The Zionists, the Christians and the Israeli army will finish Hezbollah'. But it is a measure of how much things have shifted in Lebanese society that, even in East Beirut they got beaten up for their trouble, and a rally they called at the end of the war drew only handfuls of people."

I didn't say that all Maronites were anti-Arab, just the Gemaels and other Phalangists, which they are. Talk to one of them and they will tell you that they are not Arabs, that they are descended from the Phoenecians or some such nonsense (A bit like loyalists telling you they are the lost tribe of Israel). It's always enjoyable to watch their reaction at that stage when you tell them 'But you look Arabic and you speak Arabic'. Phalange politics has always been opposed to Arab nationalism, to the point that they try to reconstruct Maronite identity as 'non-Arab'.

I have nothing against mass immigration, nothing at all. There is no reasoned argument against it that doesn't rely on racism. One poster here evidently thinks we should have something against mass immigration.

I was really speculating in the dark about who killed Gemael. I don't have enough knowledge of the region to speculate authoritatively on who dunnit, but Jeff's point about the Israelis being the ones most likely to benefit from it makes sense.

by tell the truth Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:12

Pierre Gemayel was doubtless up to no good with his Israeli and American paymasters when he got rubbed out

Ohh doubtlessly.......

the Syrians are also the only power that have the ability to bring some kind of stability to the region.

Oh doubtlessly.......

he turned against them when the PLO came out in support of a non-sectariant government in Lebanon

Oh doubtlessly.......might have had more to do with the PLO slaughtering lebanese and trying to take over the country dont ya think? from memory they were simple revenge attacks for the 30,000 the PLO slaughtered

More propaganda rubbish, facts mingled with incredible rubbish

by St Maron Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:22

Here's the Wikipedia.org link on the Phalangists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalangists

Official Website:
http://www.el-kataeb.org/

Opposition:
http://www.socialdemocratic.org/kataeb/
Military:
http://www.thelebaneseresistance.org/ouwet.html

by more guff Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:24

Hezbollah fighters want the Israelis out, they want justice for the Palestinians and they want a national unity government in Lebanon.

In contrast the Falange want to turn on their fellow Lebanese

No hezbollah want a sharia law muslim state, if hezbollah cared for the Palestinians so much they might take care of the 200,000+ palestinian refugees living in south lebanon refugee camps with no citizenship rights, no rights at all and living in dire poverty, so please dont try to peddle that crap about hezbollah loving the palestinians, if they did they might have done something about their brothers living with no rubbish collection, no sewerage no nothing, in fact the statistics are worse than gaza, the Palestinians get more from the Israelis and thats a fact, a very very sad fact

by Feroze H. Mithiborwala Thu Nov 23, 2006 18:03

As usual the Western Media has blamed the assassination of Pierre Gemayel on Syria. The bias of the Western Media led by the BBC, CNN and FOX was evident during the Israeli aggression on Lebanon. They continue to refer to the present Siniora government as anti-Syrian, even though it is a proxy for the US-Israeli-French-Saudi axis. On the other hand they continue to insinuate that the political parties led by the Hizbullah and its allies are pro-Syrian even though they truly represent the majority of the patriotic Lebanese people and yes, they are in an alliance with Syria and Iran but it is an alliance of friends and equals.

The simple question we need to ask is which are the forces that clearly stand to benefit from the assassination and therefore we need to analyse the situation within Lebanon and the West Asian region.

- The momentous victory of the Lebanese National Resistance over the Israeli army has forever shattered the myth of Israeli invincibility. The national unity of the Lebanese people across religious and sectarian divisions and the emergence of a national Lebanese identity was the key to the victory. The entire US-Zionist strategy of War as an instrument to reshape the region has reached its limits.

- The defaet to the Lebanese Resistance has enmeshed Israel in a grave political crisis. But this crisis has only made Israel move futher to the fascist extremist Right. The appointment of Avigdor Libermann as Deputy PM, symbolises both the crisis and the Nazi character of the Israeli State. Avigdor Libermann has been specifically brought to power to implement the
"Final Solution" to the "Palestinian problem". The consensus in Israel is moving towards the "Total Ethnic Cleansing" of the Palestinians from all of historic Palestine. It is a myth that there is a centrist strand in Israel. At this moment in time, there exists no Israeli leadership that can negotiate a just and peaceful solution to the Palestine-Israel conflict. Any leader who wishes to only needs to look back at the fate of Yitzhak Rabin.

- The courageous Palestinian people continue to resolutely resist inspite of the daily slaughter by the Zionist onslaught.

Similarly both in Iraq and in Afghanistan the resistance to the US-NATO occupation continues to grow and by their own admission the US led alliance is losing the war. This war has finally led to the awakening of the American people which was evident during the mid-term elections where Bush and his Neo-cons and the Zionist lobby were routed.

Even the American ruling class led by the weapons and oil lobbies have realised that the American empire itself is at stake. Therefore the James Baker-Hamilton Iraq study group has recommended the involvement of Iran and Syria for the US to save whats left of its honour in Iraq. They are also challenging the hegemony of the neo-cons and the Zionists over American
Foreign Policy, especially in West Asia which is undoubtedly biased towards Israel to the exclusion of all other nations and peoples.

The US policy over Palestine which is seen through the prism of Jewish and Christian Zionists is itself being challenged. Undoubtedly Palestine is the core issue and only a just solution for the people of Palestine and Israel will finally end seemingly endless cycle of hatred, violence and wars.

The struggle between the hardcore Neo-cons and Zionists represented by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Perle and Wolfowitz and the "pragmatic imperialists" led by James Baker and Hamilton as well as key sections of the Democrats will decide the future course of US foreign policy.

It is in this context that we have to analyse the assasination of Pierre Gemayel who was brutally killed on the November 21, 2006. On 19th November, Sheikh Hasan Nasrallah called for the resignation of the government and clearly stated that the Lebanese people will not accept a government that operates on on the dictats of the US embassy in Beirut. He called for a
government of National Unity and for elections soon after. Earlier the cabinet ministers of the Hizbullah and the Amal resigned. General Michel Aoun who represents the majority of the Christian Maronite community, stated that the government has lost the moral right to rule as the majority of the people are no longer represented.

The government continued to refuse to acknowledge these very legitimate and democratic demands. Thus Hassan Nasrallah called for mass protests for an indefinite period until the government agreed to finally honour the democratic aspirations of the majority and was to soon announce the date.

THE ASSASINATION OF PIERRE GEMAYEL WAS CARRIED OUT TO PRE-EMPT THE MASS DEMOCRATIC UPSURGE OF THE LEBANESE PEOPLE NOW UNITED ACROSS RELIGIOUS
AND SECTRIAN DIVISIONS !!! *

The post WWI history of Lebanon has been one of sectarian divisions, civil wars and Israeli aggression. Lebanon was carved out of Syria by the French colonialists to create a Christian dominated state in the Levant. The French created a constitution and a political system based exclusively on religious and sectarian identities. Thus the Lebanese people were doomed and the project of creating a Lebanese national identity was practically impossible given the confessional nature of the Lebanese political system.

After the brutal civil wars during the 70' and 80's and the subsequent Israeli War and Occupation, Lebanon lay enslaved and hopelessly divided. It was the resistance of the Hizbullah in the post 1982 period that finally began to give shape to a Lebanese national identity which could overide narrow religious and sectarian divisions. This led to the defeat and
withdrawal of Israel from Lebanon in the year 2000, though Israel continued to occupy the Shebaa farms.

The victory also brought about national reconciliation between the variouscommunities.

The Israeli aggression in July-August 2006 which suffered a resounding defeat is again threatening to divide Lebanese society.

It is also important to analyse Lebanese society. The Shias constitute 40% of the population and are historically the most marginalised both politically and socio-economically. The Maronite Christians constitue 35% and the Sunnis 20% and the rest are the Druze.

On the one hand are the Hizbullah and the Amal which represent practically all of the Shia community. The Free Patriotic Movement of General Michel Aoun represents 80% of the Maronite Christian community. Ex-PM Salim Hoss of the Third Front and other Nasserites as well as Sunni Islamists represent 40% of the Sunni population and Talal Arsalan represents 20% of the Druze community. The Lebanese Communist party is a key constituent and is playing a very constructive role in forging this alliance. During the war, 80% of the Christians, 87% of the Sunnis and all of the Shias supported the Hizbullah led Resistance. Clearly the majority is with the Hizbullah led alliance. This is the same alliance that defeated the Israeli war machine and now they believe and rightly so, that it is time to overthrow the cabal
which is propped up by the US-Saudi-Israeli nexus.

The strategy of the Hizbullah led alliance, is for a peaceful and democratic revolution. It is clear to all that if this alliance takes to the streets, the government will fall in a matter of days. The Siniora government cannot match either the mobilising capacity or the moral legitimacy of the
revolutionary alliance. The challenge before the Hizbullah is to mantain the unity as well as withstand the provocation of the US-Israeli proxies. The time tested weapon for formenting civil wars in Lebanon has been targetted assassinations which are a daily reality for the Palestinians. After the Israeli defeat we knew that the Israeli startegy would now focus on
assasinations and civil war. It is only in that situation that Israel can ever hope to avenge its defeat and thus the brutal murder of Pierre Gemayel. The Maronite Christain leadership is being targetted so as to divide the forces especially led by General Michel Aoun and the Hizbullah, which together represent the overwhelming majority of the Lebanese people.
Since the war, six leaders have been assassinated and this Israeli policy will continue though I believe that the Lebanon of the 70's and 80's is not the same, post the victory and the emergenge of the Hizbullah as the stabilizing national force.

Even for Syria to engage in assassinations of anti-Syrian forces is untenable. The Syrian leadership would have to be utterly moronic to indulge in this sort of acts which are totally damaging to Syrian national interests. The assassination of Rafik Hariri who enjoyed warm and cordial relations with all political forces, especially with Hassan Nasrallah is also one that needs to be analysed. That assassination led to the withdrawal of the Syrain army due to mass protests and finally to the invasion by Israel. The Hariri assassination was also one that helped the Israeli cause.

After the defeat of the Bush Junta, Syria has established official relations with the Iraqi government, after a gap of 25 years. Iran has called for a trilateral conference involving Iraq and Syria so as to stabilise the situation in Iraq which is undergoing an American imposed genocide. One of the major tasks I believe is to preserve the unity of Iraq as well as bring
about a constructive dialogue between the Arab Shias and Sunnis as well as the Kurds. What will be discussed is the sharing of political power as well as the Oil wealth whilst preserving the unity of Iraq. The Israeli-US gameplan is to divide Iraq along sectarian and ethnic faultlines.
This equation is a nightmare for the Neo-cons, Israel and the Saudis.

On the one hand it is clear to all that the pro-US Lebanese government will soon collapse as it has lost democratic legitimacy. If they are to survive they have no option but to further align themselves with the US-Israeli imperialist alliance.

On the other hand is the Hizbullah led alliance which has no option but to overthrow the proxy government and address the aspirations of the Lebanese masses. They defeated the Israeli militarily and now they have to win the political battle against the US-Israeli stooges. The challenge is to achieve it through democratic and peaceful means whilst carrying the overwhelming majority of the Lebanese people.

We know that they can do it.

by MichaelY - iawm Thu Nov 23, 2006 18:22

-ASSASSINATION OF GEMAYEL AIMED AT RESTARTING CIVIL WAR IN LEBANON – WHO BENEFITS?

-IRISH TROOPS MAY GET CAUGHT UP IN CONFLICT

The major beneficiaries of the recent assassination of Lebanese Industry Minister, Pierre Gemayel of the Phalangist Party, and the resulting instability, are Israel and the US.

Reports are already emerging from Lebanon that UN troops, which include a small Irish contingent, may get caught up in the conflict.

Faced with humiliation in Iraq at the hands of the resistance and after the major defeat suffered by Israel at the hands of Hizbollah, the US, Israel and their allies in the region have been actively trying to stoke up sectarian divisions.

Only Israel, the US and a pro-US Christian minority stand to gain if there is a return to sectarian conflict or civil war in Lebanon. Can it be a coincidence that this killing happens at a time when there is an unprecedented unity between sects in Lebanon, after the Israeli attack, which is reflected in a new political alliance between Hizbollah, the Christian Ayounist Party, the secular Communist Party and Amal?

Western 'experts' are pointing the finger at Syria, which has unequivocally condemned the attack and dissociated itself from it, when in fact there is every bit as a good a case to suggest that Mossad, the CIA or pro-US elements that oppose plans for a national unity government could have a hand in such a provocation.

It is clear that Israel hoped to stir up a civil war and sectarian divisions when they launched their recent assault on Lebanon, but failed because the majority of Lebanese people, united behind the Hizbollah led resistance.

It is equally clear in Iraq, that with 80 per cent of Iraqi’s from all factions opposing the US presence, the occupying forces have established political structures designed to divide people along sectarian lines. There are widespread reports that many of the sectarian killings and assassinations being carried out in Iraq, are being carried out by elements within the US supported government. The CIA also has huge numbers of people in Baghdad and Mossad are believed to be very active also.

Anybody that rules out such a possibility should remember, the well-documented support given by the US to right-wing death squads in Latin America in the 1980s..

Whoever, was responsible for the assassination of Gemayel, it is clear that Israeli and US aggression and their threats against Iran and Syria are the main elements destabilising the entire region. With the US now arming up the pro-US Fuad Siniora government in Lebanon and with Israel and the US saying the UN force must disarm Hizbollah, there is a real danger Irish troops might be pushed into taking sides in a civil war.

The Irish government should withdraw our troops from this situation and should completely disassociate itself from US interference in the region by ending the use of Shannon by the US military.

Almost a million US troops have gone through Shannon airport and up to 650,000 Iraqis have been slaughtered as a result of the US invasion of Iraq. Even at this late stage, the Irish government must take a stand against US/Israeli warmongering and ensure we do not become implicated in further conflict in Lebanon.”

Debate and comments welcome

by siptu member - none Thu Nov 23, 2006 20:40

The contribution of Declan and puma is at best a fantasy and at worst sinister.
Other contributors have pointed out who stands to gain most from political instability in Lebannon. The US backed Israeli bombing was designed to stir up that kind of sectarian tension...it failed ...prehaps someone thinks that blaming the Syrians or Hezbollah for assinations might suceed..lets hope it dosnt.
In the meantime lets , without going back on the tiresome debate about whether a speaker rom Hezbollah should have been welcomed here or not , recap a few things..............Hezbollah have a better record than most other Leb parties of avoiding Sectarian conflicts over the last while, esspecially under Nasarallah. They remain a national liberation movement, whether some on the left here like it or not.
Personally, I never believe the mass media when they come to quick conclusions about who did what,...least of all if the guilty verdict happens to be in the intrests of the very people who some months ago didnt give a f..k about the thousands of Lebannese been bombed to death or about their fledging democracy.

by cederrevolution Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:13

The west blames Syria for very very good reason....

they assinated the prime minister not so long ago ...

They have a history and long long line of people that they have assinated in Lebanon

thats why 1 million lebanese(Hezbollah not included) demanded they leave and the cederwood revolution bore fruit

new political alliance between Hizbollah, the Christian Ayounist Party, the secular Communist Party and Amal?
POLITICAL, hardly serious as the parties apart from hezbollah have 1 thing in common, they also have had people assinated by the syrians/plo/hezbollah
this much is clear
the syrians sponsor hezbollah
the lebanese people demanded the syrians left after years of abuse and killings
Lebanese parliment reckon there are about 5,000 syrians still roaming the south under invitation from hezbollah

no matter how hard they try the hezbollah will never free themselves from their masters, they are after all
pawns in the greater game

by kev Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:57

Its deeply unfair to say that against him, in that case anyone involved the Civil War militia or other Lebanese conflicts also deserves to die. silly.

by hezbollah will fall Fri Nov 24, 2006 13:57

the article says it all