(1) Why do you not also publish the photos of the Qassam rocket damage in Sderot? or the photos of the bombed buses and eateries in Israel?
(2) Why do you not remember that it was not Israel in 1947 that denied the UN partition nor Israel that failed to create an Arab state in Palestine in 1947 -67?
(3) By 1947 Israel had won independence from the British. 1948 was about Israel independence from the Arab World. Why do your friends object to Israeli independence but not to Pakistani [&Bangla Deshi ] independence from India?
(4) Why do Hamas and for that matter the PLO maintain charters and policies that still refuse to recognise Israeli self determination in any frontiers whatsoever? How do you talk to sommebody that says you do not exist?
(5) Why did the Palestine Arabs FAIL to create any government in Gaza Hebron & Nablus Districts in 1947 - 67 but instead allowed themselves to be peacefully occupied by the Jordanian West Bank and Egypt?
(6) If you can accept Churchill hiving off Jordan from the Palestine Mandate why do you find it difficult to accept further border and admin amendments?
(7) When is the penny dropping that the price of Palestine is that the Arabs recognise Israel and abstain from waging war on Israel?
(8) Democracy is a methodofchanging government peacefully and legitimately but it does not mean that a democratically elected government can pursue any policy that it wishes without taking circumstances into consideration - Hitler was elected too but when he overflowed accepted behaviour he was put down -eventually. Same ghas happened to Hamas and constituents. You can not wage war and expect to be treated as if in peacetime.
(1) Why do you not also publish the photos of the Qassam rocket damage in Sderot? or the photos of the bombed buses and eateries in Israel?
Answer, indymedia is an open publishing site. Any reader is free to contribute anything within the guidelines. Therefore the question could be why don't you?
(2) Why do you not remember that it was not Israel in 1947 that denied the UN partition nor Israel that failed to create an Arab state in Palestine in 1947 -67?
Nevertheless they are preventing it now with military force
(3) By 1947 Israel had won independence from the British. 1948 was about Israel independence from the Arab World. Why do your friends object to Israeli independence but not to Pakistani [&Bangla Deshi ] independence from India?
The most common view on the left is for a two state solution.
(4) Why do Hamas and for that matter the PLO maintain charters and policies that still refuse to recognise Israeli self determination in any frontiers whatsoever? How do you talk to sommebody that says you do not exist?
Ditto from the israeli side
(5) Why did the Palestine Arabs FAIL to create any government in Gaza Hebron & Nablus Districts in 1947 - 67 but instead allowed themselves to be peacefully occupied by the Jordanian West Bank and Egypt?
You'd have to ask the palestinians that, it can hardly be blamed on indymedia.
(6) If you can accept Churchill hiving off Jordan from the Palestine Mandate why do you find it difficult to accept further border and admin amendments?
Very few readers of this site accept the impearialist manoverings of the great powers. Land grabs and driving people off their lands is always unacceptable whatever the excuse.
(7) When is the penny dropping that the price of Palestine is that the Arabs recognise Israel and abstain from waging war on Israel?
Ditto for the israeli side
(8) Democracy is a methodofchanging government peacefully and legitimately but it does not mean that a democratically elected government can pursue any policy that it wishes without taking circumstances into consideration - Hitler was elected too but when he overflowed accepted behaviour he was put down -eventually. Same ghas happened to Hamas and constituents. You can not wage war and expect to be treated as if in peacetime.
Ditto with israel. Remember who is occupying who and who loses tens of civilians on an almost daily basis and who has tanks on the others land and who drops bombs rather than plant them. And who regualrly uses collective punishment on the mass of civilians.
Great photos and great demonstration - thanks to everyone who came, despite the spitting and occassionally pouring rain. Amazingly, the Irish Times report today got it right - there were about 500 people at the demonstration, which marched from the Central Bank to the GPO.
Speakers included the Palestinian representative in Ireland, Hikmat Ajurri, as well as a representative from the Palestinian community, who thanked so many people for coming out and showing solidarity with the Palestinian people. Aoife Daly from Amnesty International also spoke about the deteriorating human rights situation in Palestine, and the war crimes Israel is comitting. We also had speakers from PANA and IAWM
On the political front we had the deputy Lord Mayor, Aodhan O Riordan from Labour, Mary Lou McDonald from Sinn Fein and Kieran Allen from the SWP. The focus of their comments was on the disgrace and double standards behind the Irish government's sanctions against Palestine and the democratically elected Palestinian government. Kieran Allen also pointed out that the Israeli assault on Gaza is not about rescuing soldiers but about overthrowing a democratically elected government.
The march got a good reaction from passers-by, showing the popularity of this cause among ordinary Irish people. Well done to everyone who organised the demonstration
Thanks for that. Good to see an independent report. And great to see that the only person mentioned twice is a SWP member. Great to see because as a independent member of the ISPC that you are capable of posting such a wonderful independent report. Great, great and a great mention for the IAWM, great, great. Would you ever think of joining the SWP?
In case you were too busy marching on Saturday to read Ha'aretz, I am pasting an article below, which is based on Captain John Ging (retd.)'s statement to the press on that day. While you were drying your socks I was sweating it out (and this at night) watching BBC and CNN both feature the bauld Mullingar man. A credit to your nation and your army.
"Living conditions are at a new low. It's a struggle to survive," said John Ging, the new head of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza.
Ging warned that Israel's military campaign, prompted by the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier two weeks ago, has lead to a humanitarian crisis. "Water, food, electricity, sanitation; these are the problems. The situation doesn't get more basic than that," he said.
The closure and the destruction of Gaza's only power station by the Israeli air force have led to a humanitarian crisis in the area, said Ging, the UNRWA chief.
He urged Israel to open supply routes at crossings such as Karni in southern Gaza, where he said 235 containers of U.N. food were waiting to cross.
He said the border closure also was preventing the United Nations from shipping its empty containers out of Gaza to be refilled and returned.
The Israeli military had no immediate comment.
Those of you who have operated in the Balkans will no doubt have met with this chap, who was known as the unofficial mayor of Sarajevo for a long time. Great to see that he is moving on up. Ireland may have a SG in NY yet!
BTW, just to give you the latest PR from the Knesset:
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, at a press conference for foreign journalists in Jerusalem, said he was undeterred in his intention to implement the “convergence plan” to uproot dozens of Israeli communities in Judea and Samaria to make way for a Palestinian state.
Olmert said: “I am determined to continue on the path to the convergence idea, as the strongest idea for moving events forward in the Middle East.
“I have not changed my mind over the past few days regarding the convergence plan, and I am determined to continue on my road to the ultimate separation from the Palestinians, and to attain secure borders that will be recognized by the international community."
Nice report further up in this thread. However, I must agree with your critic [M Why?] that mentioning the IAWM, in fact using the four letters I A W + M, was a serious sin - a flaw of character. A political faux pas - like Zidane head-butting the Italian who threw racist insults at him. The fact that the IAWM co-organised Saturday's demonstration, the fact that we helped with the printing of the posters and the leaflets, the fact that some of the stewards were iawm members are all irrelevant....the truth remains that we are not to be mentioned. Doing so compromises the independence of the IPSC and, to a large extent, negates all the excellent work you have been doing. As for using KA's name (twice for Chrissake?) - words simply fail me.
David - you have been warned - word in the street has it that you, personally, and your organisation collectively, are in great risk of being - what's the word - PUPPETED!!
In the meantime, as I know you will heed this message and will never mention us again, below is our position, drafted by GC...
As we slept last night in our beds, and as we read this now, Israel is still involved in another round of inflicting murder and mayhem on the people of Gaza. The capture and arrest of one Israeli soldier is being used as the pretext for a violent attack and invasion. If the Israeli government did value the life of this soldier, they would be sitting down at the negotiating table, not inflicting reprisals and collective punishment on the people of Gaza.
The father of the young Israeli soldier himself called in vain for negotiations for reciprocal release of prisoners. There are some 9500 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, including 125 women and 350 children under 16, many held without charge, whose names and suffering have never made our national papers.
The IOF have turned Gaza into a killing field, a prison. The borders have been sealed. Electricity and water have been cut off to many of the population of 1.4 millions. They have bombed the same buildings including schools more than once. They imprisoned Hamas government ministers then had the arrogance to complain that they weren't doing enough to find their soldier! Media crews taking photographs and medical personnel trying to rescue the wounded and remove the dead have been wounded and fired upon.
Palestinians, families with young children, pregnant women terrified into miscarriages, people sitting in darkness unable to sleep at night, windows splintering from sonic booms....unable to make a cup of tea, bombs dropping around them, people being shot, and the fear of armed IOF soldiers breaking into their homes at any moment to herd them into one room or throw them into the street. What political cause or ambition or history could ever justify this?
Whether resisting or hiding in their homes, Palestinians are being terrorised, wounded and killed. These reprisals, executions, disproportionate violence, attacks on unarmed civilians, and collective punishment of the entire civilian population are specifically prohibited by the Geneva convention. These acts are war crimes. It is a travesty of international law.
Many people in Gaza already are forced to live below the poverty line. Studies show that from 72 to 99 % of its children suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome and nightmares and night terrors caused by exposure to random violence. A humanitarian and environmental crisis is days away as the infrastructure is broken down, resulting in food and water pollution and shortages. The Palestinian people were already being 'punished' by sanctions for democratically electing a government the US and Israel did not like.
Their treatment is an outrage against all of our humanity! We must not stay silent!
American and European governments have more blood on their hands as they have funded Israel and/or cut off funding to Gaza. In so doing they have paved the way for this attack on the rights of Gaza to sovereignty and peace.
NO GOVERNMENT, NO NATION WORTHY OF THE NAME COULD WREAK THIS INHUMANITY, THIS GROSS AND DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSE ON ANOTHER, AND COVER IT IN MEDIA LIES AND OMISSIONS.
The IAWM supports the following 10 demands and urges implementation by the Irish as well as the EU/American/Israeli governments as appropriate:
1. We support the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights' [pchr@pchrgaza.org] call for the international community to intervene immediately to protect the Palestinian civilian population, and force the occupying power to comply with the 1949 Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war.
2. Lift the EU embargo on Palestine, as moved by Senator Brendan Ryan
3. Immediate ceasefire by all sides and complete withdrawal of the IOF from Gaza.
4. An end to all aid and trade with Israel so long as it remains an apartheid state.
5. Send emergency supplies of medicine, food and fresh water to the people of Gaza.
6.Israel to release the Hamas government ministers and others being held since the incursion and begin genuine negotiations for the release of Palestinian prisoners, including all women and children, and the Israeli soldier.
7. That the EU facilitate these negotiations in any way possible and provide the funding for the Hamas government to function normally and pay its workers.
8. That the victims in Gaza receive international compensation.
9. That the $15 million/day the US sends to Israel be re-allocated and diverted to Gaza to rebuild the infrastructure, offices, schools and homes, and to provide material, social and psychological support for the people.
10. That brave and decent Israelis continue to resist their apartheid government and cooperate with Palestinians to dismantle the system of racist laws, walls, political prisons, and settler colonies, and create a society where the human rights of all peoples are respected.
Just for those who speak of Israel as if it were a nationalist theocratic dictatorship, like some of the neighbours...
The Knesset plenum will vote today on six no-confidence motions submitted by the opposition factions. The Likud faction filed a no-confidence motion over the Kassam rocket fire at Ashkelon. NU-NRP (National Union-National Religious Party) and United Torah Judaism express no confidence over the [international] gay parade [“World Pride 2006”] due to take place in Jerusalem. Yisrael Beitenu filed a no confidence motion over Israel’s faulty PR campaign in the world. Meretz faction expresses no confidence over the government’s conduct on the foreign-policy level. The RA’AM-TA’AL, Hadash and Balad factions express no confidence [in two separate motions] over the government’s policy in the social, economic and foreign-affairs spheres. The Shas faction will vote against the no-confidence motion regarding the gay parade in Jerusalem. This after the faction received a promise that Minister Edri would say at the Knesset plenum on the government’s behalf that it had been made clear to the Jerusalem Municipality that the government is not comfortable over the parade taking place at the capital. Jerusalem Post notes that the six no-confidence motions constitute the highest number that the government has faced since it took office in April. […] None of those motions are expected to pass.
I know I shouldn't reply to a troll - M Why - but as pointed out, by Michael Y, the IAWM did help in the stewarding - so thanks for that. Other groups were also there, like folks from the WSM, some of whom were handing out our leaflets - though I didn't ask them whether they were doing that as anarchists or as people disgusted about the ongoing slaughter of Palestinians. Funny that.
As for mentioning Kieran Allen twice - grow up. The IPSC isn't in danger of being taken over by the SWP or any other group. What is heartening about this campaign is that every time we ask other groups for help, it is freely given. It's a broad based campaign, and I suspect the reason for M Why's intervention is to try making it less so.
What's the world coming to when you can't even take a compliment. There was me being all positive like and you read more into it. Don't know what nerve I must have hit there.
Palestine should force the release of the captive soldier. If they are all that worried about their people dying then that's what they should do. They are not in a position to attempt this kind of carry-on. Ridiculous move on their part.
They should be concentrating on garnering international support by acting responsibly. The longer Palestine resists the more land it will lose. They stand a much better chance in a long term political battle, rather than trying to win through violence, which does nothing but re-inforce an image of Palestinians as blood-thirsty, and incapable.
Personally I don't support Israel (them being a racist land-grabbing estate and all), but I do not equate blame for the immediate situation with them. What were Hamas expecting? Idiotic move boyos.
I'm pretty disgusted by the implication that the IPSC is being "puppetted" (was this the word used?) by the SWP, an accusation that I've heard over and over again from people who can never think of another and more plausible pretext for introducing discord. I've had the distinction of being accused in these columns of "providing a fig-leaf for the SWP", and of being accused by the SWP of unfairly targeting them for criticism. You can't win in this game, but I don't really care - we have to try and beat the Israelis, and not one another.
As "MC" for the march, I announced at the start and at the end that it was organised by the IPSC and the IAWM. The IPSC, in case Michael Y has conveniently forgotten, is part of the IAWM anyway.
As for the usual Zionist snipers who come out from behind the uprooted olive-trees whenever an event of this sort takes place, their contributions always boil down to two linked fallacies: that you can "balance" the oppressor and the oppressed, and that Palestinian acts of resistance are inherently illegitimate (a separate issue from whether or not they occasionally take a questionable form). The Naqba is the original crime, and 1967 is its pendant. Everything that has happened since is an effect of the so-called "international community"'s failure to deal with the consequences of these acts of ethnic cleansing and occupation.
As for the reply to the first contribution, just one correction: "the left" no longer supports a chimerical "two state solution", unless by "the left" you mean the various parties with ties to the Israeli Labour Party (I know that the neo-liberal butcher Shimon Peres used to like to be feted at meetings of the "Socialist International"). Had a "two state solution" ever been either just or possible we'll never know, because Israeli annexation and colonisation have made it a physical impossibility, something else for which the EU shares responsibility.
To end on a positive note: the demo was a success, like it or not! One of the best aspects of it was the involvement of Palestinians of all ages and persuasions. I hope we can continue to build this campaign against the premier injustice of our time, and the begrudgers can... well, I did say I'd end on a positive note, so I wish them a fond farewell.
I found it dificult to know what point Michael Y was making, I think he was being facetious or ironic at one stage so dont jump to hard on him. As for the SWP, I dont think the IPSC as a national organisation is a puppet of the SWP but the Belfast branch of the IPSC certainly is. It made a disgraceful attack on Anthony MacIntyre because he stod up for fre spech and for Womens Rights (you can support the Palestinian cause and also believe that women in Islamic societies are entitled to human rights). If Maccers was the sueing kind then he could have got a lot from the IPSC.
I was glad to see David L describing Kieran Allen as speaking on behalf of the SWP because at the demo he spoke on behalf of PBPA, an organistion which has no independent existence. Its just an SWP front and the SWP showed contempt for the IPSC and the inteligence of those at raly by sending Allen along as a PBPA speaker. Some laughed and one well known fan of the SWP was literally foaming at the mouth when it was anounced that KA would speak for the PBPA.
I was also disturbed at KAs call for the destruction of the State of Israel. This view is not common on the Left, The SP, SY, ISN would not agree with it. While Libertarians wish to get rid of all states, we are not going to make Israel a specimen case. In the abscence of a Socialist Revolution in The Middle East, calling for the destruction of Israel is in reality a call to drive the Jews into the sea.
Of course the Palestinians must be supported and the Palestinian Defence Forces have every right to undertake military actions inside Israeli teritory just as they have the right to take POWs. It is disgraceful the way the EU is handling aid at the moment. Instead of veting Palestinians for Hamas conections the EU should be implementing a trafe blockade against Israel. The EU should supply arms to the Palestinians.
Raymond, I hope I havent been to negative but I think certain things have to be said.
To be perfectly honest, I was surprised to read here that the march was 'co-organised' by the IAWM (cough, cough). Why? What for? The IPSC has better pulling power than the IAWM (cough, cough) and, contrary to the usual trolls and troublemakers, nobody I know sees the IPSC as a 'front' for anybody. It's a genuine campaign. The IPSC hardly needs the IAWM (cough, cough) to co-organise it's demos.
Great march and great work by EVERYBODY involved, from anarchists to Trotskyists to Palestinians. Let's hope the next one is bigger!
Raymond said : As for the reply to the first contribution, just one correction: "the left" no longer supports a chimerical "two state solution",
The prisoners document seems to make it clear that a Palestinian State on pre-67 borders with a capital in Jerusalem is the key card. Hamas seem to lean strongly in that direction.
Might I be so bold as to ask, What does the "left" think the solution should be?
My entire first paragraph above was an attempted ironic and spoofy attempt to respond to David's earlier critic...Tank Girl, who's usually at odds with me, could see that....I obviously failed and you took me seriously. I know well IPSC's drive for independence, I know the contribution yourself and other IPSC members have made.....so pls read my first paragraph again.
by Ploughshares SupportMon Jul 10, 2006 20:54 087 918 4552
Anti-War singer songwriter David Rovics is in town to Saturday July 22nd. to do a benefit gig for the Pit Stop Ploughshares presently on trial at the Four Courts.
Rovics, from New York City, has many sngs dealing witht he war on Palestine "Occupation", "Resistance", "The Key", "Return", "Palestine" & "The Death of Rachel Corrie". David will dedicate his classic "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" to the Pit Stop Ploughshares on trial in Dublin for disarming a U.S. Navy War Plane at Shannon (3/3/06) - as he tours England & Ireland. Shannon Airport is also used to move weapons to Israel for the war on Palestine.
David will do a benefit gig for the Ploughshares in Dublin on Saturday evening July 22nd. Stay tuned to indy for venue & more info
In the meantime check David Rovic's website below.....
While some groups on the left call for the destruction of israel and the creation of a new palestine (where current israelis will have rights) most leftist groups internatioanly call for an independent palestine not a unified palestine/israel state.
In being that israel is the stronger force and occupying force its a mite unrealistic to call for all of the current israel/palestine teritories to become a singular palestinian state. A more likely scenario would be the israelis annexing more of palestine or finally annexing the entire territory. Therefore by calling on a two state solution it is in support of independence for the palestinian people. A socialist israel and palestine could chose to have formal federal links but an independent palestine would be necessary. And it is correct that israelis do also have rights even if their state is the aggressor.
The prisoners document calls for a Palestinian state on the Pre-67 lands. Thats a two state solution.
Heres the text calling for the state territory:
1- The Palestinian people in the homeland and in the Diaspora seek and struggle to liberate their land and remove the settlements and evacuate the settlers and remove the apartheid and annexation and separation wall and to achieve their right to freedom, return and independence and to exercise their right to self-determination, including the right to establish their independent state with al-Quds al-Shareef as its capital on all territories occupied in 1967, and to secure the right of return for refugees to their homes and properties from which they were evicted and to compensate them and to liberate all prisoners and detainees without any discrimination and all of this is based on the historical right of our people on the land of our forefathers and based on the UN Charter and international law and legitimacy in a way that does not affect the rights of our people.
Tank Girl just because organisations or individuals had problems with the cartoons on the Blanket it does NOT mean that they are therefore puppets or fronts of the SWP.
Indeed I have a lot of respect for the IPSC activists in Belfast.
And so just to clarify,
the reality is re - the SWP, they as I have stated before have not initiated, or mobilised anything new onto Belfast streets in nearly two years, although not through lack of trying.
It is just that there calls are not supported, indeed they have little support out of their own ranks, and they know it.
Indeed if u look back over those two years they are irrelevant to all the mobilisations and working class fight backs and victories to date seen on Belfast’s streets.
The only thing they now do with some regularity is put on Anti war public meetings with the speakers they are provided, again a good thing, but even in relation to mobilisation the last several months it has seen, seven mobilisations and pickets etc
Yet they have been organised by ‘Justice Not Terror, Peace people, SY and most recently AWI amongst others.
Indeed AWI Ireland Belfast has intensified their visual activity in recent time, and are now becoming the visual street face of the Anti War Movement in Belfast.
Also this situation is not helped with their {SWP in Belfast} continued abstraction, indeed while their 'activity in recent times was geared to holding a meeting on ‘Why MPH failed’ {And not Why the Anti War Movement Failed} - those who had been in MPH were soon to meet, as their and our activity, was to organise and push forward on a major Anti Poverty rally in central Belfast – what more needs to be said, indeed Socialist Democracy comes to mind.
Indeed I do go into this in small part in my last West Belfast article to go up on the Blankets next issue, as it is now ‘Ten Years an activist’’ – which also deals with my ‘return to the seventies and my childhood, the present ,and how I see my activism in the future. {And there is even a wee picture of me in the late seventies 9 years of age on the Falls Road with a class afro!
So Tank Girl, I hope that clarifies and lets u know that the IPSC in Belfast is NOT a puppet of the SWP, as the SWP is but a handful of people with now no support out of those ranks – indeed back to the very spot as it had seen me walk into a room 10 years ago and seeing numbers counted on one hand and who where completely irrelevant then to the activist world
Indeed, they are now back to that very spot which is unfortunate as they have good people, but they had brought this about themselves by their actions.
I will take your comments under advisement. An open letter in the name of Belfast IPSC attacking Maccers was published on Indymedia and elsewhere. I believed that the IPSC was a single issue campaign that you only signed up to supporting the creation of a Free Palrestine. By writing this letter Belfast IPSC went far beyond their remit and supported the right of religious censoship of the media.
Because Maccers supports freedom of the press and supports journalists against attacks from religious fanatics that does not make him an Islamophobe or a racist. You may be unaware of it but Iraqi and Iranian Socialist Feminists support the publishing of those cartoons.
I am though VERY well aware of the situation and all points raised by all the different groups and individuals, more especially having had been an activist within the Belfast IPSC for several years, having written on the Blanket from the beginning through to now, and also having been in the Belfast SWP for eight years – therefore I know all within each and their workings’ etc.
My point raised though, as above, is not about the rights or wrongs of the IPSC or any individual’s position in regard to the Cartoons and the Blanket, but to simply state that the IPSC in Belfast is most definitely not a puppet or a front of the SWP; indeed I can state that as fact.
As I said the SWP up here are completely and absolutely irrelevant and the only real activist based involvement is within the BAWM, which consist unfortunately, in real activist terms, of themselves and a few students, and there 'Influence, given their {our} past history then of mobilisation, can be judged therefore by what new initiatives and support they have initiated and gathered in recent years, and as I stated - it has been and therfore it is -NONE - ZILTCH
I bow to your superior knowledge of the Belfast scene. But it makes me wonder as to what sort of people are in Belfast IPSC. Do they not understand what a single issue campaign is? Why do they feel that they have to support religious fanatics and uphold the right of relgious censorship of the media?
Are they unaware that some Palestinians are Christian and some Palestinians are even Atheists or Agnostics? Is it only Hamas that they will support? They seem to have forgotten that Hamas got 43% of the vote and Secular Parties got 57%. Palestinian Women are also entitled to rights its sick that that the IPSC in the name of supporting the Palestinian Government are actually refusing to support womens rights not to wear the hijab or be subject to sharia "law".
I see the points that D and Tank Girl are making but for the sake of clarity can D explain that if the SWP are irrelevant and not fronting the Belfast IPSC, how did the BIPSC come out and make that statement which really is the line of the SWP?
For a start there are no SWP 'members active in the Belfast IPSC, as far as I am aware, so a front?
Secondly as for someone having the same position, well I know for a fact that key activists in the Belfast IPSC have some real differences with the SWP as is to be expected- so maybe, maybe, they looked at all various being said, and came to an agreed collective decision themselves, is that so far fetched curious?
Indeed, as recorded, I have huge problems with the SWP but have and do agree with a lot of what they stand for and indeed at times have agreed with their statements and lines they have put out {while disagreeing with others} - but does that mean I am influenced by them, I am a puppet of them, or am a front for them –
Or could it be just simply, that after listening and reading all, that on that specific issue, that I had just came to the same understanding as them, however right or wrong others may have seen that.
Well, indeed that has been the case on various occasions as a non SWP member in recent times yet I am neither a puppet of them, or a front for them etc.
PS - I am going of line in a short while and will be of line and away for several days {Bank holidays} but if one wants to continue this, then I of course will be back in several days, to facilitate. So anything pressing, fire away..
although the SWP boasted that many more writers would ‘follow the SWP's principled lead, and would march out the door behind the SWP as they marched triumphantly forward with their principled flag fluttering in the wind, as they marched onwards and outwards away from the Blanket,
unfortunately though {for them} they were though to find as they looked back, that not only would they have seen no –one behind them, {as I had already touched on in relation to the SWP in Belfast, and influence and irrelevance} but since they had went,
Mackers has had a column in the Irish News the last few weeks, {again today}, many of the old experienced left wing activists and writers have come back writing regularly, while more new leftist writers are now submitting and seeking to get involved.
Well,
I don’t know,
but,
I believe that there must be a lesson in there somewhere?
They seem to have forgotten that Hamas got 43% of the vote and Secular Parties got 57%. Palestinian Women are also entitled to rights its sick that that the IPSC in the name of supporting the Palestinian Government are actually refusing to support womens rights not to wear the hijab or be subject to sharia "law".
------------------------------------------
Hamas got 76 seats in that election. Furthermore 4 independent seats with candidates backed by Hamas. Giving them a majority of 80 seats in a 132 seat parliament.
I believe they did this with 61% of the vote.
Putting all histerics about Hijabs and such nonsense aside ,this government is the undeniable holder of the mandate of the Palestinian people. It is a disgrace in democratic terms that the western world will meekly do as they are told by America and shun these representatives. It makes a mockery of the democratisation process and proves it to be the sham and scandal that it truly is.
Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own. "Hamas won 44 percent of the popular vote but 56 percent of the seats, while Fatah won 42 percent of the popular vote but only 34 percent of the seats" according to the New York Times [1]. Analysis of election results indicates that both factions won seats in proportion to their shares of the vote for the 66 list seats. Hamas is overrepresented in the 66 district seats because it nominated more strategically than Fatah and did not have to compete with third parties and independents for the same voters' support.[2]
^ "U.S. and Israelis Are Said to Talk of Hamas Ouster", The New York Times, February 14, 2006.
^ "It's the Election System, Stupid: The Misleading Hamas Majority and the System that Created It", FairVote, February 3, 2006.
So you think its hysterics that women are being forced to wear the hijab? I oppose Israel and as long as Israel occupies any of the Territories it invaded in 1967 then I will support the right of Palestinians to carry on an armed struggle against the Zionists.
But that does not mean that I will ignore the fact that Hamas are literally pissing on Palestinian women. Hamas do not have a mandate to impose the Sharia and even if they had I believe that women, gays and socialists have a right to carry out an armed struggle against such laws.
No, you cannot vote womens rights away. Hamas religious police are legitimate targets.
No its not true, You are correct with 74 seats as it was revised above on the 30th of January. And Im not an election official so I cant comment on all that wikipedia waffle.
In clear terms for lay people, Hamas won the elections by winning 74 seats with 4(?) Hamas backed independents also on board that is winning a resounding 60% plus of the vote. A victory the likes of which Fianna Fail could only ever dream. People who seek to undermine this validation of the current palestinian government are doing the Palestinians no favours. There is no need to imlpy that they sneakily took the vote or that they somehow have a minority in reality. They swept the board in the results of the election and the government of the day has the inalienable right to represent the people. If you do support the Palestinian people then you should support their elected government against the propaganda that is being used daily to rub this act of democratic Palestinian defiance from the pages of history.
In flying off the handle about Hijabs and women being "pissed on" you are helping spread that kind of histeria that distracts the public from the real violations of womens and human rights that are going on as we speak , on a massive scale. Womens position in Palestinian society will be a very complex issue if Palestinian soiciety survives the current onslaught. But I think its safe to say that for the moment its not an issue.
The Turning Point of the Crisis - So Called "Harmless" Kassam Rockets Reach Ashkelon
Two Kassam rockets fell on Sderot on today (7 July). One of the rockets fell in the city's central market, wounding seven. Three people were hit by shrapnel from the rocket, while four were in shock. The second rocket landed in an empty soccer field.
These are not the first victims of Kassams. Thirteen civilians,
including three very young children, have been killed by these so called "harmless" rockets:
Mordechai Yosepov, 49 and Afik Zahavi, 4 - June 28, 2004
Yuval Abebeh, 4 and Dorit Benisian, 2 - September 29, 2004
Jitladda Tap-arsa, 19 (a female agricultural worker from Thailand) -
December 14, 2004
Nissim Arbiv, 26 - January 11, 2005
Ayala (Ella) Abukasis, 17 - January 15, 2005
Salah Ayash Imran, 57, Muhammed Mahmoud Jaroun, and Bi Shude, 46 - June 7, 2005
Dana Galkowicz, 22 - July 14, 2005
Salam Ziadin and his 16-year-old son Khalid - March 28, 2006
The crisis in Gaza reached a turning point when, on July 4th, when a Kassam rocket landed, for the first time in the center of Ashkelon, a city of 120,000. Fortunately, none of the children playing nearby were injured in the attack on the Ronson High School. However, as Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stated (4 July): "This is an unprecedented and severe escalation in the terrorist war being waged by Hamas, which currently controls the Palestinian Authority. I say here and now: This action, this attack, this criminal attempt that was intended to harm Israeli citizens living within the sovereign State of Israel, will have unprecedented and far-reaching consequences. Hamas will be the first to feel this."
Fatah, PFLP & DFLP between them took almost 50% of the vote. No one other than you is spreading the fantasy that Hamas & friends got 60% of the vote.
Womens rights may be irrelevant to you but its not to women. I clearly stated that I support the Palestinian People against Israel but I wont support a bunch of medieval savages in Hamas who want to introduce the sharia. Do you think that its a good idea that women should be stoned to death for adultery? Is that the sort of Palestine you support?
Its not the type of Palestine I support. All Irish progressives should support Fatah, PFLP & DFLP against Hamas.
Its outrageous to say that womens rights dont matter at the moment. The Islamic Fundamentalists of Hamas always find time to push womens faces into the dirt. Hamas havent suspended their Sharia campaign for the duration of the Israeli onslaught.
More worrying is the fact that Islamists and christians in Jerusalem seem to have a different priority. They dont seem to care about Gaza but they have plenty of time to oppress gays in Jerusalem. Indeed they have linked up with Jewish fundamentalists to prevent a LGBT parade taking place in Jerusalem.
Instead of calling on the Palestinian people to come out in the streets to support the Gazans and oppose the Israelis, Sheik Taissir Tamimi, head of the Islamic court in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said``This group of homosexuals, we consider them impure,'' he called on Palestinians to take to the streets to prevent marchers from entering east Jerusalem.
These people have some strange priorities. Read more about it at the link.
I am keeping it nice and clear for people who dont want to get bogged down in irrlevenat election statistics. The palestinian people have rejectted Fatah, that is clear. Anyone who supports the struggle of the Palestinian people should first and foremost support their elected representatives. i.e. the current government..
Womens rights are begin trodden into the ground as we speak , but its not Hamas who are doing that, it the Israeli military, which is out of control.
The only people who are mandated to speak for those people are the elected representatives.
The issue of sharia law is not relevant to the Palestinians at this point in time because they are dying under Israeli martial law. We should not spread words that weaken the position of their chosen delegates. We should support their right to speak on behalf of their people.
Less of your misogynist patronising nonsense please. You dont have to make your contempt for women that obvious. Of course in your ideal Islamic society I would not even be allowed to argue with you. Some in Ireland like you who support the Palestinian people also support Hamas. Others like me support the Palestinian people but support those organistions which uphold a secular society.
You did lie. You continuously claim that Hamas & friends got 61% of the vote, thats a lie. Hamas got 44% of the vote. Fatah, PFLP & DFLP between them got almost 50% of the vote. If you have a source that says otherwise then produce it.
But Paddy dont you think the islamists and Christians in Jerusalem have strange priorities? Why dont you call on them to put all of their efforts into opposing the Israeli invasion rather than forming alliances with Zionists to oppress gays
go to the link i supply above and follow the other links there for the full stories. note i said Islamists are forming alliances with Zionists. I'm not certain Tamimi is in Hamas.
But in any case surely Muslims and Christians in Jerusalem should be opposing the Israelis rather than oppressing gays. They have got their priorities mixed up.
Israel murdered another family of nine last night with a precision one ton bomb.
They have just reinvaded southern Lebanon .
Tank is calling me names beacause I wont agree that the Palestinian government is not the legitimate representative of the will of the Palestinians after winning 61per cent of the vote(regardless of irrelevant background statistics).
And Pat is worried about the lesbians and Gays.
Priorities ?
The Middle East is melting folks. There is going to be a terrible price to pay if the Western Governments do not intervene.
If you are going to insult Irish LGBTS then why should they support Palestine? Do you have no view on the priorities of Islamists in Jerusalem who are forging alliances with Zionists to attack gays rather than supporting the Gazans?
You are lieing about the election results, Hamas got 44% of the vote. That is not an irrelevant background statistic. Hamas have no mandate to introduce the sharia.
btw I hope we meet up, then you can call me queer to my face.
Paddy do you even bother to read comments fully? Pat C was asking you about the priorities of the Christian and Muslim leaders in Jerusalem who are expending much energy raging against a Lesbian/Gay Parade. Whats your opinion on that, do you think they should instead be putting all of their resouces behind opposition to the IDF incursions?
I also wonder if your attitude reflects that of the IPSC towards Gays? You are an ignorant and offensive man.
Heres the results from the Electronic Intifada. Perhaps these are also irrelevant statistics.
The results are clearer at the links
No. Electoral list No. of valid
votes Percentage No. of seats*
1 Change and Reform-6 440,409 44.45% 29
2 Fatah Movement-11 410,554 41.43% 28
3 Martyr Abu Ali Mustafa-3 42,101 4.25% 3
4 The Alternative-1 28,973 2.92% 2
5 Independent Palestine-2 26,909 2.72% 2
6 The Third Way-8 23,862 2.41% 2
7 Freedom and Social Justice-5 7,127 0.72% **0
8 Freedom and Independence-9 4,398 0.44% **0
9 Martyr Abu al-Abbas-4 3,011 0.30% **0
10 The National Coalition for Justice
and Democracy( Wa'ad)-7 1,806 0.18% **0
11 The Palestinian Justice-10 1,723 0.17% **0
Total (95.05%) 990,873 100.00% 66
Total No. of blank papers
(2.08%) 21,687
Total No. of Invalid papers
(2.86%) 29,864
Total No. of electors 1,042,424
*
**
The Final Results for the Electoral Lists
Parliamentary seats were allocated according to the Sainte
Lague method
Less than the threshold percentage which is 2% of the valid
votes
Just to confirm to trotwatch - Paddy K most certainly does not represent IPSC views. I find his misogynistic comments as offensive as you do. I suspect his deliberate spicing of his comments with words like 'tank dear' and 'queers' are meant as a wind-up. Maybe he shouldn't be fed further.
Like Pat C. I found it not just wrong, but unbelievable that at this time in Palestine, Islamist leaders in Jerusalem are spending their efforts in trying to ban a Pride march. In general I can't see any contradiction between criticising/opposing the policies of the democratically elected Palestinian government and supporting their right to exist - it's called critical engagement. Long may it continue.
From the Israeli peace group Gush Shalom immediately after the election :
The Palestinian people managed to hold fair, democratic elections under international supervision, in spite of the hard conditions of living under a regime of occupation and oppression, and the Israeli military raids which continued until the election day itself.
The parlaiament elected in these elctions, and the cabinet which will get the confidence of the parliament will be the representatives of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem - authorized to represent them in any negotiations - just like the Knesset and the government of Israel represent the Israeli people.
I did not contradict the irrelevant statistics that you wasted you time posting, I am simply making sure that anybody who actually does worry about the current international crisis developing in the ME does not go away from here with the notion that the current Palestinian government should be boycotted on the basis that it won the election in an underhanded manner. It did not , they do represent the Palestinian people, for what its worth now.
I never expressed my opinion on homosexuals or on women's rights here. I referred to the homosexual and lesbian community as queers, something that is neither derogatory or expressive in use but apparently you have inferred some insult. I apologise, stop wastin your time typing Homophobe. I coundn't care less what your sexual orientation is, if you want to wear it on your sleeve, even on a thread about the plight of Gazans, then go ahead. If you want to beat me up upon meeting me then more power to you but I suggest medication for that chip growing on your shoulder.
As far as the IPSC position on the gay community goes, I counldnt possibly care less what their position is, in fact I coundn't give a hoot what their position on Palestine is.
That Egyptian guy Yousef Ibraham has no right to speak for the Palestinians , they have elected a government to do that for them. The international community has a responsibiltiy to engage with them regardless of anyones opinion on Sharia law , which has no relevance to the crisis in Israel/Palestine/Lebanon/Syria. Wake up kiddos and smell the gunpowder.
Thats all they got. In the detailed information given by Pat C that is clearly stated as is the situation of Fatah. The PFLP and the DFLP ran as slates but their vote added to Fatahs brings it up to 50%. You are achieving nothing by continuing to lie. Even a moron in a hurry would not be deceived by you.
You were insulting to women referring to Tank Girl as dear, that is patronising. Its one thing for LGBTs to refer to each other as Queers. Its another thing entirely for you to use the word as a dismissive insult.
I presume that you are happy that the Islamic leaders in Jerusalem are forming alliances with Zionists and are attacking LGBTs rather than the Israelis.
You are a nasty Troll. Please go home and stay under your bridge.
"Just to confirm to trotwatch - Paddy K most certainly does not represent IPSC views."
You are correct.
"I find his misogynistic comments as offensive as you do."
Please highlight my woman-hating comment. I might discuss it with you if it exists.
"I found it not just wrong, but unbelievable that at this time in Palestine, Islamist leaders in Jerusalem are spending their efforts in trying to ban a Pride march. In general I can't see any contradiction between criticising/opposing the policies of the democratically elected Palestinian government and supporting their right to exist - it's called critical engagement."
This thread relates to the extraordinary hardship currently faced by the people of Gaza and their fellow countrymen and women in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Currently affected also are the refugees denied return to Palestine to provide support and assistance to their beleagured families.
You may criticise the Palestinian government in the Palestinian House of Parliament if you ever get the opportunity.
I presume the IPSC supports a Fully Independent Palestinian Parliament.
But surely the Islamic and Christian leaders in Jerusalem should be putting all of their efforts towards supporting the Palestinians in Gaza. They are not doing this. Instead they are forming alliances with Zionists to attack gays.
Do you think the Jerusalem Islamic and Christian leaders are dong the right thing?
"Who is the occupier, invader, and who is seizing more land and water? It’s Israel. Who has the most military power and domination, by a thousand to one, the most modern, probably, army in the world, after the United States? Who has slain more civilians and destroyed more civilian homes and infrastructure? Again, Israel. And who has the full backing of the U.S. government? Israel.
Now, doesn't it seem logical that the parties who should take the initiative in what they declare should be a two-state solution should be Israel and the United States? That’s the essential point here, that the U.S. has an awesome responsibility for that suffering, the deaths and injuries and disease and incarceration of the people of Gaza and the gulag that’s called the West Bank, where more land is being seized, more water is being taken, colonies are expanding, Israeli-only highways are built. I mean, we’re talking here about the biggest prison in the world, and it’s financed in significant part by the U.S. taxpayers and a supine congress. And so, it is very important, because all this is going to lead to more instability in the area, which will boomerang against our own security in the United States.
other headlines include:
- 72 Die In Lebanon In Deadliest Day of Israeli Attack
- U.S. Rejects Lebanese PM’s Appeal For Immediate Ceasefire
- Report: Israel Weighing Ground Invasion
- Death Toll in Lebanon Reaches 330; 500,000 Displaced
- UN: Israel and Hesbollah May Be Committing War Crimes
- Hezbollah Rockets Kill Two In Nazareth
- Questions Raised Over U.S. Evacuation Efforts
- Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill
- First Six Months of Year Warmest Ever in U.S.
- Ethiopia Threatens to Invade Somalia
- NYT Editor Admits Paper Erred Ahead of Iraq Invasion
Ralph Nader is a former Presidential Candidate who wrote a letter to President Bush this week that harshly criticized the White House for its response to Israel's bombardment of Lebanon.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77119
Indymedia Ireland is a media collective. We are independent volunteer citizen journalists producing and distributing the authentic voices of the people. Indymedia Ireland is an open news project where anyone can post their own news, comment, videos or photos about Ireland or related matters.
national |
anti-war / imperialism |
news report 
Sunday July 09, 2006 00:58
by Madam K - The Unmanageables
Comments (54 of 54)
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IPSC
everybody say ahhhh
don`t mention the I word
such style
no dear, you look nothing like them
Dear Indy,
(1) Why do you not also publish the photos of the Qassam rocket damage in Sderot? or the photos of the bombed buses and eateries in Israel?
(2) Why do you not remember that it was not Israel in 1947 that denied the UN partition nor Israel that failed to create an Arab state in Palestine in 1947 -67?
(3) By 1947 Israel had won independence from the British. 1948 was about Israel independence from the Arab World. Why do your friends object to Israeli independence but not to Pakistani [&Bangla Deshi ] independence from India?
(4) Why do Hamas and for that matter the PLO maintain charters and policies that still refuse to recognise Israeli self determination in any frontiers whatsoever? How do you talk to sommebody that says you do not exist?
(5) Why did the Palestine Arabs FAIL to create any government in Gaza Hebron & Nablus Districts in 1947 - 67 but instead allowed themselves to be peacefully occupied by the Jordanian West Bank and Egypt?
(6) If you can accept Churchill hiving off Jordan from the Palestine Mandate why do you find it difficult to accept further border and admin amendments?
(7) When is the penny dropping that the price of Palestine is that the Arabs recognise Israel and abstain from waging war on Israel?
(8) Democracy is a methodofchanging government peacefully and legitimately but it does not mean that a democratically elected government can pursue any policy that it wishes without taking circumstances into consideration - Hitler was elected too but when he overflowed accepted behaviour he was put down -eventually. Same ghas happened to Hamas and constituents. You can not wage war and expect to be treated as if in peacetime.
Dear Frank Adam
(1) Why do you not also publish the photos of the Qassam rocket damage in Sderot? or the photos of the bombed buses and eateries in Israel?
Answer, indymedia is an open publishing site. Any reader is free to contribute anything within the guidelines. Therefore the question could be why don't you?
(2) Why do you not remember that it was not Israel in 1947 that denied the UN partition nor Israel that failed to create an Arab state in Palestine in 1947 -67?
Nevertheless they are preventing it now with military force
(3) By 1947 Israel had won independence from the British. 1948 was about Israel independence from the Arab World. Why do your friends object to Israeli independence but not to Pakistani [&Bangla Deshi ] independence from India?
The most common view on the left is for a two state solution.
(4) Why do Hamas and for that matter the PLO maintain charters and policies that still refuse to recognise Israeli self determination in any frontiers whatsoever? How do you talk to sommebody that says you do not exist?
Ditto from the israeli side
(5) Why did the Palestine Arabs FAIL to create any government in Gaza Hebron & Nablus Districts in 1947 - 67 but instead allowed themselves to be peacefully occupied by the Jordanian West Bank and Egypt?
You'd have to ask the palestinians that, it can hardly be blamed on indymedia.
(6) If you can accept Churchill hiving off Jordan from the Palestine Mandate why do you find it difficult to accept further border and admin amendments?
Very few readers of this site accept the impearialist manoverings of the great powers. Land grabs and driving people off their lands is always unacceptable whatever the excuse.
(7) When is the penny dropping that the price of Palestine is that the Arabs recognise Israel and abstain from waging war on Israel?
Ditto for the israeli side
(8) Democracy is a methodofchanging government peacefully and legitimately but it does not mean that a democratically elected government can pursue any policy that it wishes without taking circumstances into consideration - Hitler was elected too but when he overflowed accepted behaviour he was put down -eventually. Same ghas happened to Hamas and constituents. You can not wage war and expect to be treated as if in peacetime.
Ditto with israel. Remember who is occupying who and who loses tens of civilians on an almost daily basis and who has tanks on the others land and who drops bombs rather than plant them. And who regualrly uses collective punishment on the mass of civilians.
Great photos and great demonstration - thanks to everyone who came, despite the spitting and occassionally pouring rain. Amazingly, the Irish Times report today got it right - there were about 500 people at the demonstration, which marched from the Central Bank to the GPO.
Speakers included the Palestinian representative in Ireland, Hikmat Ajurri, as well as a representative from the Palestinian community, who thanked so many people for coming out and showing solidarity with the Palestinian people. Aoife Daly from Amnesty International also spoke about the deteriorating human rights situation in Palestine, and the war crimes Israel is comitting. We also had speakers from PANA and IAWM
On the political front we had the deputy Lord Mayor, Aodhan O Riordan from Labour, Mary Lou McDonald from Sinn Fein and Kieran Allen from the SWP. The focus of their comments was on the disgrace and double standards behind the Irish government's sanctions against Palestine and the democratically elected Palestinian government. Kieran Allen also pointed out that the Israeli assault on Gaza is not about rescuing soldiers but about overthrowing a democratically elected government.
The march got a good reaction from passers-by, showing the popularity of this cause among ordinary Irish people. Well done to everyone who organised the demonstration
Thanks for that. Good to see an independent report. And great to see that the only person mentioned twice is a SWP member. Great to see because as a independent member of the ISPC that you are capable of posting such a wonderful independent report. Great, great and a great mention for the IAWM, great, great. Would you ever think of joining the SWP?
In case you were too busy marching on Saturday to read Ha'aretz, I am pasting an article below, which is based on Captain John Ging (retd.)'s statement to the press on that day. While you were drying your socks I was sweating it out (and this at night) watching BBC and CNN both feature the bauld Mullingar man. A credit to your nation and your army.
"Living conditions are at a new low. It's a struggle to survive," said John Ging, the new head of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza.
Ging warned that Israel's military campaign, prompted by the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier two weeks ago, has lead to a humanitarian crisis. "Water, food, electricity, sanitation; these are the problems. The situation doesn't get more basic than that," he said.
The closure and the destruction of Gaza's only power station by the Israeli air force have led to a humanitarian crisis in the area, said Ging, the UNRWA chief.
He urged Israel to open supply routes at crossings such as Karni in southern Gaza, where he said 235 containers of U.N. food were waiting to cross.
He said the border closure also was preventing the United Nations from shipping its empty containers out of Gaza to be refilled and returned.
The Israeli military had no immediate comment.
Those of you who have operated in the Balkans will no doubt have met with this chap, who was known as the unofficial mayor of Sarajevo for a long time. Great to see that he is moving on up. Ireland may have a SG in NY yet!
BTW, just to give you the latest PR from the Knesset:
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, at a press conference for foreign journalists in Jerusalem, said he was undeterred in his intention to implement the “convergence plan” to uproot dozens of Israeli communities in Judea and Samaria to make way for a Palestinian state.
Olmert said: “I am determined to continue on the path to the convergence idea, as the strongest idea for moving events forward in the Middle East.
“I have not changed my mind over the past few days regarding the convergence plan, and I am determined to continue on my road to the ultimate separation from the Palestinians, and to attain secure borders that will be recognized by the international community."
The Cat
My good friend David,
Nice report further up in this thread. However, I must agree with your critic [M Why?] that mentioning the IAWM, in fact using the four letters I A W + M, was a serious sin - a flaw of character. A political faux pas - like Zidane head-butting the Italian who threw racist insults at him. The fact that the IAWM co-organised Saturday's demonstration, the fact that we helped with the printing of the posters and the leaflets, the fact that some of the stewards were iawm members are all irrelevant....the truth remains that we are not to be mentioned. Doing so compromises the independence of the IPSC and, to a large extent, negates all the excellent work you have been doing. As for using KA's name (twice for Chrissake?) - words simply fail me.
David - you have been warned - word in the street has it that you, personally, and your organisation collectively, are in great risk of being - what's the word - PUPPETED!!
In the meantime, as I know you will heed this message and will never mention us again, below is our position, drafted by GC...
As we slept last night in our beds, and as we read this now, Israel is still involved in another round of inflicting murder and mayhem on the people of Gaza. The capture and arrest of one Israeli soldier is being used as the pretext for a violent attack and invasion. If the Israeli government did value the life of this soldier, they would be sitting down at the negotiating table, not inflicting reprisals and collective punishment on the people of Gaza.
The father of the young Israeli soldier himself called in vain for negotiations for reciprocal release of prisoners. There are some 9500 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, including 125 women and 350 children under 16, many held without charge, whose names and suffering have never made our national papers.
The IOF have turned Gaza into a killing field, a prison. The borders have been sealed. Electricity and water have been cut off to many of the population of 1.4 millions. They have bombed the same buildings including schools more than once. They imprisoned Hamas government ministers then had the arrogance to complain that they weren't doing enough to find their soldier! Media crews taking photographs and medical personnel trying to rescue the wounded and remove the dead have been wounded and fired upon.
Palestinians, families with young children, pregnant women terrified into miscarriages, people sitting in darkness unable to sleep at night, windows splintering from sonic booms....unable to make a cup of tea, bombs dropping around them, people being shot, and the fear of armed IOF soldiers breaking into their homes at any moment to herd them into one room or throw them into the street. What political cause or ambition or history could ever justify this?
Whether resisting or hiding in their homes, Palestinians are being terrorised, wounded and killed. These reprisals, executions, disproportionate violence, attacks on unarmed civilians, and collective punishment of the entire civilian population are specifically prohibited by the Geneva convention. These acts are war crimes. It is a travesty of international law.
Many people in Gaza already are forced to live below the poverty line. Studies show that from 72 to 99 % of its children suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome and nightmares and night terrors caused by exposure to random violence. A humanitarian and environmental crisis is days away as the infrastructure is broken down, resulting in food and water pollution and shortages. The Palestinian people were already being 'punished' by sanctions for democratically electing a government the US and Israel did not like.
Their treatment is an outrage against all of our humanity! We must not stay silent!
American and European governments have more blood on their hands as they have funded Israel and/or cut off funding to Gaza. In so doing they have paved the way for this attack on the rights of Gaza to sovereignty and peace.
NO GOVERNMENT, NO NATION WORTHY OF THE NAME COULD WREAK THIS INHUMANITY, THIS GROSS AND DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSE ON ANOTHER, AND COVER IT IN MEDIA LIES AND OMISSIONS.
The IAWM supports the following 10 demands and urges implementation by the Irish as well as the EU/American/Israeli governments as appropriate:
1. We support the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights' [pchr@pchrgaza.org] call for the international community to intervene immediately to protect the Palestinian civilian population, and force the occupying power to comply with the 1949 Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war.
2. Lift the EU embargo on Palestine, as moved by Senator Brendan Ryan
3. Immediate ceasefire by all sides and complete withdrawal of the IOF from Gaza.
4. An end to all aid and trade with Israel so long as it remains an apartheid state.
5. Send emergency supplies of medicine, food and fresh water to the people of Gaza.
6.Israel to release the Hamas government ministers and others being held since the incursion and begin genuine negotiations for the release of Palestinian prisoners, including all women and children, and the Israeli soldier.
7. That the EU facilitate these negotiations in any way possible and provide the funding for the Hamas government to function normally and pay its workers.
8. That the victims in Gaza receive international compensation.
9. That the $15 million/day the US sends to Israel be re-allocated and diverted to Gaza to rebuild the infrastructure, offices, schools and homes, and to provide material, social and psychological support for the people.
10. That brave and decent Israelis continue to resist their apartheid government and cooperate with Palestinians to dismantle the system of racist laws, walls, political prisons, and settler colonies, and create a society where the human rights of all peoples are respected.
Just for those who speak of Israel as if it were a nationalist theocratic dictatorship, like some of the neighbours...
The Knesset plenum will vote today on six no-confidence motions submitted by the opposition factions. The Likud faction filed a no-confidence motion over the Kassam rocket fire at Ashkelon. NU-NRP (National Union-National Religious Party) and United Torah Judaism express no confidence over the [international] gay parade [“World Pride 2006”] due to take place in Jerusalem. Yisrael Beitenu filed a no confidence motion over Israel’s faulty PR campaign in the world. Meretz faction expresses no confidence over the government’s conduct on the foreign-policy level. The RA’AM-TA’AL, Hadash and Balad factions express no confidence [in two separate motions] over the government’s policy in the social, economic and foreign-affairs spheres. The Shas faction will vote against the no-confidence motion regarding the gay parade in Jerusalem. This after the faction received a promise that Minister Edri would say at the Knesset plenum on the government’s behalf that it had been made clear to the Jerusalem Municipality that the government is not comfortable over the parade taking place at the capital. Jerusalem Post notes that the six no-confidence motions constitute the highest number that the government has faced since it took office in April. […] None of those motions are expected to pass.
The title says it all.
I know I shouldn't reply to a troll - M Why - but as pointed out, by Michael Y, the IAWM did help in the stewarding - so thanks for that. Other groups were also there, like folks from the WSM, some of whom were handing out our leaflets - though I didn't ask them whether they were doing that as anarchists or as people disgusted about the ongoing slaughter of Palestinians. Funny that.
As for mentioning Kieran Allen twice - grow up. The IPSC isn't in danger of being taken over by the SWP or any other group. What is heartening about this campaign is that every time we ask other groups for help, it is freely given. It's a broad based campaign, and I suspect the reason for M Why's intervention is to try making it less so.
What's the world coming to when you can't even take a compliment. There was me being all positive like and you read more into it. Don't know what nerve I must have hit there.
Mo sheacht mh'anam sibh, lucht na hagóide.
Beirigí bua.
Seriously??
Palestine should force the release of the captive soldier. If they are all that worried about their people dying then that's what they should do. They are not in a position to attempt this kind of carry-on. Ridiculous move on their part.
They should be concentrating on garnering international support by acting responsibly. The longer Palestine resists the more land it will lose. They stand a much better chance in a long term political battle, rather than trying to win through violence, which does nothing but re-inforce an image of Palestinians as blood-thirsty, and incapable.
Personally I don't support Israel (them being a racist land-grabbing estate and all), but I do not equate blame for the immediate situation with them. What were Hamas expecting? Idiotic move boyos.
I'm pretty disgusted by the implication that the IPSC is being "puppetted" (was this the word used?) by the SWP, an accusation that I've heard over and over again from people who can never think of another and more plausible pretext for introducing discord. I've had the distinction of being accused in these columns of "providing a fig-leaf for the SWP", and of being accused by the SWP of unfairly targeting them for criticism. You can't win in this game, but I don't really care - we have to try and beat the Israelis, and not one another.
As "MC" for the march, I announced at the start and at the end that it was organised by the IPSC and the IAWM. The IPSC, in case Michael Y has conveniently forgotten, is part of the IAWM anyway.
As for the usual Zionist snipers who come out from behind the uprooted olive-trees whenever an event of this sort takes place, their contributions always boil down to two linked fallacies: that you can "balance" the oppressor and the oppressed, and that Palestinian acts of resistance are inherently illegitimate (a separate issue from whether or not they occasionally take a questionable form). The Naqba is the original crime, and 1967 is its pendant. Everything that has happened since is an effect of the so-called "international community"'s failure to deal with the consequences of these acts of ethnic cleansing and occupation.
As for the reply to the first contribution, just one correction: "the left" no longer supports a chimerical "two state solution", unless by "the left" you mean the various parties with ties to the Israeli Labour Party (I know that the neo-liberal butcher Shimon Peres used to like to be feted at meetings of the "Socialist International"). Had a "two state solution" ever been either just or possible we'll never know, because Israeli annexation and colonisation have made it a physical impossibility, something else for which the EU shares responsibility.
To end on a positive note: the demo was a success, like it or not! One of the best aspects of it was the involvement of Palestinians of all ages and persuasions. I hope we can continue to build this campaign against the premier injustice of our time, and the begrudgers can... well, I did say I'd end on a positive note, so I wish them a fond farewell.
I found it dificult to know what point Michael Y was making, I think he was being facetious or ironic at one stage so dont jump to hard on him. As for the SWP, I dont think the IPSC as a national organisation is a puppet of the SWP but the Belfast branch of the IPSC certainly is. It made a disgraceful attack on Anthony MacIntyre because he stod up for fre spech and for Womens Rights (you can support the Palestinian cause and also believe that women in Islamic societies are entitled to human rights). If Maccers was the sueing kind then he could have got a lot from the IPSC.
I was glad to see David L describing Kieran Allen as speaking on behalf of the SWP because at the demo he spoke on behalf of PBPA, an organistion which has no independent existence. Its just an SWP front and the SWP showed contempt for the IPSC and the inteligence of those at raly by sending Allen along as a PBPA speaker. Some laughed and one well known fan of the SWP was literally foaming at the mouth when it was anounced that KA would speak for the PBPA.
I was also disturbed at KAs call for the destruction of the State of Israel. This view is not common on the Left, The SP, SY, ISN would not agree with it. While Libertarians wish to get rid of all states, we are not going to make Israel a specimen case. In the abscence of a Socialist Revolution in The Middle East, calling for the destruction of Israel is in reality a call to drive the Jews into the sea.
Of course the Palestinians must be supported and the Palestinian Defence Forces have every right to undertake military actions inside Israeli teritory just as they have the right to take POWs. It is disgraceful the way the EU is handling aid at the moment. Instead of veting Palestinians for Hamas conections the EU should be implementing a trafe blockade against Israel. The EU should supply arms to the Palestinians.
Raymond, I hope I havent been to negative but I think certain things have to be said.
To be perfectly honest, I was surprised to read here that the march was 'co-organised' by the IAWM (cough, cough). Why? What for? The IPSC has better pulling power than the IAWM (cough, cough) and, contrary to the usual trolls and troublemakers, nobody I know sees the IPSC as a 'front' for anybody. It's a genuine campaign. The IPSC hardly needs the IAWM (cough, cough) to co-organise it's demos.
Great march and great work by EVERYBODY involved, from anarchists to Trotskyists to Palestinians. Let's hope the next one is bigger!
Raymond said : As for the reply to the first contribution, just one correction: "the left" no longer supports a chimerical "two state solution",
The prisoners document seems to make it clear that a Palestinian State on pre-67 borders with a capital in Jerusalem is the key card. Hamas seem to lean strongly in that direction.
Might I be so bold as to ask, What does the "left" think the solution should be?
Raymond,
My entire first paragraph above was an attempted ironic and spoofy attempt to respond to David's earlier critic...Tank Girl, who's usually at odds with me, could see that....I obviously failed and you took me seriously. I know well IPSC's drive for independence, I know the contribution yourself and other IPSC members have made.....so pls read my first paragraph again.
Solidarity
Michael
Anti-War singer songwriter David Rovics is in town to Saturday July 22nd. to do a benefit gig for the Pit Stop Ploughshares presently on trial at the Four Courts.
Rovics, from New York City, has many sngs dealing witht he war on Palestine "Occupation", "Resistance", "The Key", "Return", "Palestine" & "The Death of Rachel Corrie". David will dedicate his classic "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" to the Pit Stop Ploughshares on trial in Dublin for disarming a U.S. Navy War Plane at Shannon (3/3/06) - as he tours England & Ireland. Shannon Airport is also used to move weapons to Israel for the war on Palestine.
David will do a benefit gig for the Ploughshares in Dublin on Saturday evening July 22nd. Stay tuned to indy for venue & more info
In the meantime check David Rovic's website below.....
http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/01/default.cfm?bandi...gid=0
While some groups on the left call for the destruction of israel and the creation of a new palestine (where current israelis will have rights) most leftist groups internatioanly call for an independent palestine not a unified palestine/israel state.
In being that israel is the stronger force and occupying force its a mite unrealistic to call for all of the current israel/palestine teritories to become a singular palestinian state. A more likely scenario would be the israelis annexing more of palestine or finally annexing the entire territory. Therefore by calling on a two state solution it is in support of independence for the palestinian people. A socialist israel and palestine could chose to have formal federal links but an independent palestine would be necessary. And it is correct that israelis do also have rights even if their state is the aggressor.
An Unmanageable Glenda Cimino takes the mic to delever the IAWM 10 demands (as seen above )
Glenda
Video of protest in progress , should be available tomorrow.
The prisoners document calls for a Palestinian state on the Pre-67 lands. Thats a two state solution.
Heres the text calling for the state territory:
1- The Palestinian people in the homeland and in the Diaspora seek and struggle to liberate their land and remove the settlements and evacuate the settlers and remove the apartheid and annexation and separation wall and to achieve their right to freedom, return and independence and to exercise their right to self-determination, including the right to establish their independent state with al-Quds al-Shareef as its capital on all territories occupied in 1967, and to secure the right of return for refugees to their homes and properties from which they were evicted and to compensate them and to liberate all prisoners and detainees without any discrimination and all of this is based on the historical right of our people on the land of our forefathers and based on the UN Charter and international law and legitimacy in a way that does not affect the rights of our people.
Heres the document :
http://www.mideastweb.org/prisoners_letter.htm
Forgive me , Im even more confused. Please, what says "the left" about this ?
Tank Girl just because organisations or individuals had problems with the cartoons on the Blanket it does NOT mean that they are therefore puppets or fronts of the SWP.
Indeed I have a lot of respect for the IPSC activists in Belfast.
And so just to clarify,
the reality is re - the SWP, they as I have stated before have not initiated, or mobilised anything new onto Belfast streets in nearly two years, although not through lack of trying.
It is just that there calls are not supported, indeed they have little support out of their own ranks, and they know it.
Indeed if u look back over those two years they are irrelevant to all the mobilisations and working class fight backs and victories to date seen on Belfast’s streets.
The only thing they now do with some regularity is put on Anti war public meetings with the speakers they are provided, again a good thing, but even in relation to mobilisation the last several months it has seen, seven mobilisations and pickets etc
Yet they have been organised by ‘Justice Not Terror, Peace people, SY and most recently AWI amongst others.
Indeed AWI Ireland Belfast has intensified their visual activity in recent time, and are now becoming the visual street face of the Anti War Movement in Belfast.
Also this situation is not helped with their {SWP in Belfast} continued abstraction, indeed while their 'activity in recent times was geared to holding a meeting on ‘Why MPH failed’ {And not Why the Anti War Movement Failed} - those who had been in MPH were soon to meet, as their and our activity, was to organise and push forward on a major Anti Poverty rally in central Belfast – what more needs to be said, indeed Socialist Democracy comes to mind.
Indeed I do go into this in small part in my last West Belfast article to go up on the Blankets next issue, as it is now ‘Ten Years an activist’’ – which also deals with my ‘return to the seventies and my childhood, the present ,and how I see my activism in the future. {And there is even a wee picture of me in the late seventies 9 years of age on the Falls Road with a class afro!
So Tank Girl, I hope that clarifies and lets u know that the IPSC in Belfast is NOT a puppet of the SWP, as the SWP is but a handful of people with now no support out of those ranks – indeed back to the very spot as it had seen me walk into a room 10 years ago and seeing numbers counted on one hand and who where completely irrelevant then to the activist world
Indeed, they are now back to that very spot which is unfortunate as they have good people, but they had brought this about themselves by their actions.
I will take your comments under advisement. An open letter in the name of Belfast IPSC attacking Maccers was published on Indymedia and elsewhere. I believed that the IPSC was a single issue campaign that you only signed up to supporting the creation of a Free Palrestine. By writing this letter Belfast IPSC went far beyond their remit and supported the right of religious censoship of the media.
Because Maccers supports freedom of the press and supports journalists against attacks from religious fanatics that does not make him an Islamophobe or a racist. You may be unaware of it but Iraqi and Iranian Socialist Feminists support the publishing of those cartoons.
Sound Tank girl,
Indeed,
I am though VERY well aware of the situation and all points raised by all the different groups and individuals, more especially having had been an activist within the Belfast IPSC for several years, having written on the Blanket from the beginning through to now, and also having been in the Belfast SWP for eight years – therefore I know all within each and their workings’ etc.
My point raised though, as above, is not about the rights or wrongs of the IPSC or any individual’s position in regard to the Cartoons and the Blanket, but to simply state that the IPSC in Belfast is most definitely not a puppet or a front of the SWP; indeed I can state that as fact.
As I said the SWP up here are completely and absolutely irrelevant and the only real activist based involvement is within the BAWM, which consist unfortunately, in real activist terms, of themselves and a few students, and there 'Influence, given their {our} past history then of mobilisation, can be judged therefore by what new initiatives and support they have initiated and gathered in recent years, and as I stated - it has been and therfore it is -NONE - ZILTCH
I bow to your superior knowledge of the Belfast scene. But it makes me wonder as to what sort of people are in Belfast IPSC. Do they not understand what a single issue campaign is? Why do they feel that they have to support religious fanatics and uphold the right of relgious censorship of the media?
Are they unaware that some Palestinians are Christian and some Palestinians are even Atheists or Agnostics? Is it only Hamas that they will support? They seem to have forgotten that Hamas got 43% of the vote and Secular Parties got 57%. Palestinian Women are also entitled to rights its sick that that the IPSC in the name of supporting the Palestinian Government are actually refusing to support womens rights not to wear the hijab or be subject to sharia "law".
I see the points that D and Tank Girl are making but for the sake of clarity can D explain that if the SWP are irrelevant and not fronting the Belfast IPSC, how did the BIPSC come out and make that statement which really is the line of the SWP?
A front?
For a start there are no SWP 'members active in the Belfast IPSC, as far as I am aware, so a front?
Secondly as for someone having the same position, well I know for a fact that key activists in the Belfast IPSC have some real differences with the SWP as is to be expected- so maybe, maybe, they looked at all various being said, and came to an agreed collective decision themselves, is that so far fetched curious?
Indeed, as recorded, I have huge problems with the SWP but have and do agree with a lot of what they stand for and indeed at times have agreed with their statements and lines they have put out {while disagreeing with others} - but does that mean I am influenced by them, I am a puppet of them, or am a front for them –
Or could it be just simply, that after listening and reading all, that on that specific issue, that I had just came to the same understanding as them, however right or wrong others may have seen that.
Well, indeed that has been the case on various occasions as a non SWP member in recent times yet I am neither a puppet of them, or a front for them etc.
PS - I am going of line in a short while and will be of line and away for several days {Bank holidays} but if one wants to continue this, then I of course will be back in several days, to facilitate. So anything pressing, fire away..
but one final point,
although the SWP boasted that many more writers would ‘follow the SWP's principled lead, and would march out the door behind the SWP as they marched triumphantly forward with their principled flag fluttering in the wind, as they marched onwards and outwards away from the Blanket,
unfortunately though {for them} they were though to find as they looked back, that not only would they have seen no –one behind them, {as I had already touched on in relation to the SWP in Belfast, and influence and irrelevance} but since they had went,
Mackers has had a column in the Irish News the last few weeks, {again today}, many of the old experienced left wing activists and writers have come back writing regularly, while more new leftist writers are now submitting and seeking to get involved.
Well,
I don’t know,
but,
I believe that there must be a lesson in there somewhere?
Ah well – away to chill.
Signing off - D
The tank Girl claimed:
They seem to have forgotten that Hamas got 43% of the vote and Secular Parties got 57%. Palestinian Women are also entitled to rights its sick that that the IPSC in the name of supporting the Palestinian Government are actually refusing to support womens rights not to wear the hijab or be subject to sharia "law".
------------------------------------------
Hamas got 76 seats in that election. Furthermore 4 independent seats with candidates backed by Hamas. Giving them a majority of 80 seats in a 132 seat parliament.
I believe they did this with 61% of the vote.
Putting all histerics about Hijabs and such nonsense aside ,this government is the undeniable holder of the mandate of the Palestinian people. It is a disgrace in democratic terms that the western world will meekly do as they are told by America and shun these representatives. It makes a mockery of the democratisation process and proves it to be the sham and scandal that it truly is.
Thats simply not true.
Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own. "Hamas won 44 percent of the popular vote but 56 percent of the seats, while Fatah won 42 percent of the popular vote but only 34 percent of the seats" according to the New York Times [1]. Analysis of election results indicates that both factions won seats in proportion to their shares of the vote for the 66 list seats. Hamas is overrepresented in the 66 district seats because it nominated more strategically than Fatah and did not have to compete with third parties and independents for the same voters' support.[2]
^ "U.S. and Israelis Are Said to Talk of Hamas Ouster", The New York Times, February 14, 2006.
^ "It's the Election System, Stupid: The Misleading Hamas Majority and the System that Created It", FairVote, February 3, 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_el..._2006
So you think its hysterics that women are being forced to wear the hijab? I oppose Israel and as long as Israel occupies any of the Territories it invaded in 1967 then I will support the right of Palestinians to carry on an armed struggle against the Zionists.
But that does not mean that I will ignore the fact that Hamas are literally pissing on Palestinian women. Hamas do not have a mandate to impose the Sharia and even if they had I believe that women, gays and socialists have a right to carry out an armed struggle against such laws.
No, you cannot vote womens rights away. Hamas religious police are legitimate targets.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/1/860514f5-9e....html
No its not true, You are correct with 74 seats as it was revised above on the 30th of January. And Im not an election official so I cant comment on all that wikipedia waffle.
In clear terms for lay people, Hamas won the elections by winning 74 seats with 4(?) Hamas backed independents also on board that is winning a resounding 60% plus of the vote. A victory the likes of which Fianna Fail could only ever dream. People who seek to undermine this validation of the current palestinian government are doing the Palestinians no favours. There is no need to imlpy that they sneakily took the vote or that they somehow have a minority in reality. They swept the board in the results of the election and the government of the day has the inalienable right to represent the people. If you do support the Palestinian people then you should support their elected government against the propaganda that is being used daily to rub this act of democratic Palestinian defiance from the pages of history.
In flying off the handle about Hijabs and women being "pissed on" you are helping spread that kind of histeria that distracts the public from the real violations of womens and human rights that are going on as we speak , on a massive scale. Womens position in Palestinian society will be a very complex issue if Palestinian soiciety survives the current onslaught. But I think its safe to say that for the moment its not an issue.
http://www.daoudkuttab.com/?item=women-s-day-in-palestine
The Turning Point of the Crisis - So Called "Harmless" Kassam Rockets Reach Ashkelon
Two Kassam rockets fell on Sderot on today (7 July). One of the rockets fell in the city's central market, wounding seven. Three people were hit by shrapnel from the rocket, while four were in shock. The second rocket landed in an empty soccer field.
These are not the first victims of Kassams. Thirteen civilians,
including three very young children, have been killed by these so called "harmless" rockets:
Mordechai Yosepov, 49 and Afik Zahavi, 4 - June 28, 2004
Yuval Abebeh, 4 and Dorit Benisian, 2 - September 29, 2004
Jitladda Tap-arsa, 19 (a female agricultural worker from Thailand) -
December 14, 2004
Nissim Arbiv, 26 - January 11, 2005
Ayala (Ella) Abukasis, 17 - January 15, 2005
Salah Ayash Imran, 57, Muhammed Mahmoud Jaroun, and Bi Shude, 46 - June 7, 2005
Dana Galkowicz, 22 - July 14, 2005
Salam Ziadin and his 16-year-old son Khalid - March 28, 2006
The crisis in Gaza reached a turning point when, on July 4th, when a Kassam rocket landed, for the first time in the center of Ashkelon, a city of 120,000. Fortunately, none of the children playing nearby were injured in the attack on the Ronson High School. However, as Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stated (4 July): "This is an unprecedented and severe escalation in the terrorist war being waged by Hamas, which currently controls the Palestinian Authority. I say here and now: This action, this attack, this criminal attempt that was intended to harm Israeli citizens living within the sovereign State of Israel, will have unprecedented and far-reaching consequences. Hamas will be the first to feel this."
Why do you lie?
Fatah, PFLP & DFLP between them took almost 50% of the vote. No one other than you is spreading the fantasy that Hamas & friends got 60% of the vote.
Womens rights may be irrelevant to you but its not to women. I clearly stated that I support the Palestinian People against Israel but I wont support a bunch of medieval savages in Hamas who want to introduce the sharia. Do you think that its a good idea that women should be stoned to death for adultery? Is that the sort of Palestine you support?
Its not the type of Palestine I support. All Irish progressives should support Fatah, PFLP & DFLP against Hamas.
Its outrageous to say that womens rights dont matter at the moment. The Islamic Fundamentalists of Hamas always find time to push womens faces into the dirt. Hamas havent suspended their Sharia campaign for the duration of the Israeli onslaught.
More worrying is the fact that Islamists and christians in Jerusalem seem to have a different priority. They dont seem to care about Gaza but they have plenty of time to oppress gays in Jerusalem. Indeed they have linked up with Jewish fundamentalists to prevent a LGBT parade taking place in Jerusalem.
Instead of calling on the Palestinian people to come out in the streets to support the Gazans and oppose the Israelis, Sheik Taissir Tamimi, head of the Islamic court in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said``This group of homosexuals, we consider them impure,'' he called on Palestinians to take to the streets to prevent marchers from entering east Jerusalem.
These people have some strange priorities. Read more about it at the link.
I dont lie.
I am keeping it nice and clear for people who dont want to get bogged down in irrlevenat election statistics. The palestinian people have rejectted Fatah, that is clear. Anyone who supports the struggle of the Palestinian people should first and foremost support their elected representatives. i.e. the current government..
Womens rights are begin trodden into the ground as we speak , but its not Hamas who are doing that, it the Israeli military, which is out of control.
The only people who are mandated to speak for those people are the elected representatives.
The issue of sharia law is not relevant to the Palestinians at this point in time because they are dying under Israeli martial law. We should not spread words that weaken the position of their chosen delegates. We should support their right to speak on behalf of their people.
This is the problem faced by the Palestinians and their representatives.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4958.shtml
Less of your misogynist patronising nonsense please. You dont have to make your contempt for women that obvious. Of course in your ideal Islamic society I would not even be allowed to argue with you. Some in Ireland like you who support the Palestinian people also support Hamas. Others like me support the Palestinian people but support those organistions which uphold a secular society.
You did lie. You continuously claim that Hamas & friends got 61% of the vote, thats a lie. Hamas got 44% of the vote. Fatah, PFLP & DFLP between them got almost 50% of the vote. If you have a source that says otherwise then produce it.
But Paddy dont you think the islamists and Christians in Jerusalem have strange priorities? Why dont you call on them to put all of their efforts into opposing the Israeli invasion rather than forming alliances with Zionists to oppress gays
You say that Hamas are "forming alliances with Zionists to oppress gays"
Is there any proof for this ?
go to the link i supply above and follow the other links there for the full stories. note i said Islamists are forming alliances with Zionists. I'm not certain Tamimi is in Hamas.
But in any case surely Muslims and Christians in Jerusalem should be opposing the Israelis rather than oppressing gays. They have got their priorities mixed up.
Israel murdered another family of nine last night with a precision one ton bomb.
They have just reinvaded southern Lebanon .
Tank is calling me names beacause I wont agree that the Palestinian government is not the legitimate representative of the will of the Palestinians after winning 61per cent of the vote(regardless of irrelevant background statistics).
And Pat is worried about the lesbians and Gays.
Priorities ?
The Middle East is melting folks. There is going to be a terrible price to pay if the Western Governments do not intervene.
I'm not worried about Hijabs and queers today.
If you are going to insult Irish LGBTS then why should they support Palestine? Do you have no view on the priorities of Islamists in Jerusalem who are forging alliances with Zionists to attack gays rather than supporting the Gazans?
You are lieing about the election results, Hamas got 44% of the vote. That is not an irrelevant background statistic. Hamas have no mandate to introduce the sharia.
btw I hope we meet up, then you can call me queer to my face.
Paddy do you even bother to read comments fully? Pat C was asking you about the priorities of the Christian and Muslim leaders in Jerusalem who are expending much energy raging against a Lesbian/Gay Parade. Whats your opinion on that, do you think they should instead be putting all of their resouces behind opposition to the IDF incursions?
I also wonder if your attitude reflects that of the IPSC towards Gays? You are an ignorant and offensive man.
Heres the results from the Electronic Intifada. Perhaps these are also irrelevant statistics.
The results are clearer at the links
No. Electoral list No. of valid
votes Percentage No. of seats*
1 Change and Reform-6 440,409 44.45% 29
2 Fatah Movement-11 410,554 41.43% 28
3 Martyr Abu Ali Mustafa-3 42,101 4.25% 3
4 The Alternative-1 28,973 2.92% 2
5 Independent Palestine-2 26,909 2.72% 2
6 The Third Way-8 23,862 2.41% 2
7 Freedom and Social Justice-5 7,127 0.72% **0
8 Freedom and Independence-9 4,398 0.44% **0
9 Martyr Abu al-Abbas-4 3,011 0.30% **0
10 The National Coalition for Justice
and Democracy( Wa'ad)-7 1,806 0.18% **0
11 The Palestinian Justice-10 1,723 0.17% **0
Total (95.05%) 990,873 100.00% 66
Total No. of blank papers
(2.08%) 21,687
Total No. of Invalid papers
(2.86%) 29,864
Total No. of electors 1,042,424
*
**
The Final Results for the Electoral Lists
Parliamentary seats were allocated according to the Sainte
Lague method
Less than the threshold percentage which is 2% of the valid
votes
http://electronicintifada.net/video2/electorallists.pdf
Just to confirm to trotwatch - Paddy K most certainly does not represent IPSC views. I find his misogynistic comments as offensive as you do. I suspect his deliberate spicing of his comments with words like 'tank dear' and 'queers' are meant as a wind-up. Maybe he shouldn't be fed further.
Like Pat C. I found it not just wrong, but unbelievable that at this time in Palestine, Islamist leaders in Jerusalem are spending their efforts in trying to ban a Pride march. In general I can't see any contradiction between criticising/opposing the policies of the democratically elected Palestinian government and supporting their right to exist - it's called critical engagement. Long may it continue.
From the Israeli peace group Gush Shalom immediately after the election :
The Palestinian people managed to hold fair, democratic elections under international supervision, in spite of the hard conditions of living under a regime of occupation and oppression, and the Israeli military raids which continued until the election day itself.
The parlaiament elected in these elctions, and the cabinet which will get the confidence of the parliament will be the representatives of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem - authorized to represent them in any negotiations - just like the Knesset and the government of Israel represent the Israeli people.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArti...=1819
__________________________________
Now, one last time ... The current Palestinian government Won (not got) Won 60+ percent of the vote
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Hamas+won+percent+of+t...UTF-8
I did not contradict the irrelevant statistics that you wasted you time posting, I am simply making sure that anybody who actually does worry about the current international crisis developing in the ME does not go away from here with the notion that the current Palestinian government should be boycotted on the basis that it won the election in an underhanded manner. It did not , they do represent the Palestinian people, for what its worth now.
I never expressed my opinion on homosexuals or on women's rights here. I referred to the homosexual and lesbian community as queers, something that is neither derogatory or expressive in use but apparently you have inferred some insult. I apologise, stop wastin your time typing Homophobe. I coundn't care less what your sexual orientation is, if you want to wear it on your sleeve, even on a thread about the plight of Gazans, then go ahead. If you want to beat me up upon meeting me then more power to you but I suggest medication for that chip growing on your shoulder.
As far as the IPSC position on the gay community goes, I counldnt possibly care less what their position is, in fact I coundn't give a hoot what their position on Palestine is.
That Egyptian guy Yousef Ibraham has no right to speak for the Palestinians , they have elected a government to do that for them. The international community has a responsibiltiy to engage with them regardless of anyones opinion on Sharia law , which has no relevance to the crisis in Israel/Palestine/Lebanon/Syria. Wake up kiddos and smell the gunpowder.
Thats all they got. In the detailed information given by Pat C that is clearly stated as is the situation of Fatah. The PFLP and the DFLP ran as slates but their vote added to Fatahs brings it up to 50%. You are achieving nothing by continuing to lie. Even a moron in a hurry would not be deceived by you.
You were insulting to women referring to Tank Girl as dear, that is patronising. Its one thing for LGBTs to refer to each other as Queers. Its another thing entirely for you to use the word as a dismissive insult.
I presume that you are happy that the Islamic leaders in Jerusalem are forming alliances with Zionists and are attacking LGBTs rather than the Israelis.
You are a nasty Troll. Please go home and stay under your bridge.
"Just to confirm to trotwatch - Paddy K most certainly does not represent IPSC views."
You are correct.
"I find his misogynistic comments as offensive as you do."
Please highlight my woman-hating comment. I might discuss it with you if it exists.
"I found it not just wrong, but unbelievable that at this time in Palestine, Islamist leaders in Jerusalem are spending their efforts in trying to ban a Pride march. In general I can't see any contradiction between criticising/opposing the policies of the democratically elected Palestinian government and supporting their right to exist - it's called critical engagement."
This thread relates to the extraordinary hardship currently faced by the people of Gaza and their fellow countrymen and women in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Currently affected also are the refugees denied return to Palestine to provide support and assistance to their beleagured families.
You may criticise the Palestinian government in the Palestinian House of Parliament if you ever get the opportunity.
I presume the IPSC supports a Fully Independent Palestinian Parliament.
But surely the Islamic and Christian leaders in Jerusalem should be putting all of their efforts towards supporting the Palestinians in Gaza. They are not doing this. Instead they are forming alliances with Zionists to attack gays.
Do you think the Jerusalem Islamic and Christian leaders are dong the right thing?
http://www.boycottworldpride.org/id2.html
I have no opinion on the utterings of ignorant morons, here , in Jerusalem or anywhere.
The boycott statement above says it all for me better than I could.
"Who is the occupier, invader, and who is seizing more land and water? It’s Israel. Who has the most military power and domination, by a thousand to one, the most modern, probably, army in the world, after the United States? Who has slain more civilians and destroyed more civilian homes and infrastructure? Again, Israel. And who has the full backing of the U.S. government? Israel.
Now, doesn't it seem logical that the parties who should take the initiative in what they declare should be a two-state solution should be Israel and the United States? That’s the essential point here, that the U.S. has an awesome responsibility for that suffering, the deaths and injuries and disease and incarceration of the people of Gaza and the gulag that’s called the West Bank, where more land is being seized, more water is being taken, colonies are expanding, Israeli-only highways are built. I mean, we’re talking here about the biggest prison in the world, and it’s financed in significant part by the U.S. taxpayers and a supine congress. And so, it is very important, because all this is going to lead to more instability in the area, which will boomerang against our own security in the United States.
And all this requires people to speak up...."
audio from yesterdays democracy now's show
Over 100 Palestinians Killed in Three Week Israeli Offensive: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/1435210
which is one segment from the days show found here:
Headlines for July 20, 2006 : http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/1434244
other headlines include:
- 72 Die In Lebanon In Deadliest Day of Israeli Attack
- U.S. Rejects Lebanese PM’s Appeal For Immediate Ceasefire
- Report: Israel Weighing Ground Invasion
- Death Toll in Lebanon Reaches 330; 500,000 Displaced
- UN: Israel and Hesbollah May Be Committing War Crimes
- Hezbollah Rockets Kill Two In Nazareth
- Questions Raised Over U.S. Evacuation Efforts
- Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill
- First Six Months of Year Warmest Ever in U.S.
- Ethiopia Threatens to Invade Somalia
- NYT Editor Admits Paper Erred Ahead of Iraq Invasion
Ralph Nader is a former Presidential Candidate who wrote a letter to President Bush this week that harshly criticized the White House for its response to Israel's bombardment of Lebanon.
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