18:00 - time to end the Angelus
An opinion on why the Angelus should not be broadcast by RTE
Today, society is (thankfully) becoming increasingly secular. The church's influence in shaping public attitudes and society's morals is diminishing. Mass attendances are down; entries to the vocations have plummeted, with only 15 priests ordained in 2004. Recent scandals and abuses within the Catholic church in Ireland have highlighted the corruption and cover-ups that are endemic within the organization. Details of abuse within the church dioceses, of priests fathering children, of gay priests have all leaked out in recent years. The church is clearly in decline, and it must re-assess the role it has to play in modern Irish society. Further afield, religious fundamentalists be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim etc are fuelling holy wars in the name of their gods. People are being killed and oppressed in His/Her name. This is a dangerous spiral, whereby the supposedly liberal West is being pitted against the supposedly fundamental Middle East. A prime example is the violence ensuing due to the Mohammed cartoon debacle. This is an alarming precedent, and serves to highlight the negativity that religion can at times inspire.
The preaching and public practicing of religion has a time and a place. The church/mosque/synagogue is the appropriate chamber for espousing such views. Within the confines of these establishments, people are free to exchange their views among fellow believers, without fear of offending the non-believers amongst us. This is perfectly acceptable. However, Ireland today is still blatantly geared towards Christianity, and Catholicism in particular. The preamble to the constitution states:
“In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial…”
The main text of the constitution also refers to (an implicitly Catholic) God, compelling the President to recite the following oath upon inauguration (article 12.8):
"In the presence of Almighty God I, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfill my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me."
Similarly, judges must recite the following declaration not later than 10 days after appointment (Article 34.5.1):
"In the presence of Almighty God I, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will duly and faithfully and to the best of my knowledge and power execute the office of Chief Justice (or as the case may be) without fear or favour, affection or ill-will towards any man, and that I will uphold the Constitution and the laws. May God direct and sustain me."
This appears to be in direct contrast to the personal freedoms granted at Article 40.6.1.i, that is:
“The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.”
Further hypocrisies can be found at Article 44:
“1. The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.
2. 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.
2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.
3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.”
So although the state guarantees not to impose any religion on us, we must adopt (at least in name) a loyalty to the Almighty God, when adopting certain positions within the executive and judiciary! And finally, we acknowledge the debt of gratitude that we owe to God, with the statement at the end of the Constitution:
“Dochum Glóire Dé agus Onóra na hÉireann” (Dedicated to the Glory of God and Honour of Ireland)
For a nation's constitution to so blatantly favour one particular religion is incredulous. The Equal Status Act 2000 prohibits discrimination on the basis (Article 3.(2)(e))
“…that one has a different religious belief from the other, or that one has a religious belief and the other has not…”
Yet, here we are, the founding document of the state, blatantly proselytizing in one direction. This, in 2006, is simply unacceptable. The only fair way of addressing this conflict is to remove these religious references altogether. Thus no-one's particular sensibilities will be offended.
The state has clearly shown hypocrisies in its legislation, however an out-dated antiquated document will not have an impact on most people’s daily lives. A much more visible example of the Christian bias by the State is to be found on the national broadcaster at 6p.m (on RTE1 and Radio1). Since 15 August 1950, the state broadcaster has been used as a pulpit, transmitting Roman Catholic symbology and iconoclasms to the country daily. In 1962, with the addition of the “T” to Raidió Eireann, the Angelus began to be broadcast with both sound and visuals. Pictures of Celtic crosses, cathedrals and religious statues are in abundance. This would appear to be in stark contrast to the ban on religious advertising that has been in place since 1960. Section 20(4) of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960 states that:
“The Authority shall not accept any advertisement which is directed towards any religious or political end...”
Dermot Ahern TD, Minister for Communications, on 29th January 2004, ruled against over-turning this ban, arguing (from the DCMNR archives):
“The choice effectively was whether we left in place what, by and large, has served us well over the past 40 years or throw open the airwaves to religious advertising which could result in those with the deepest pockets presenting an unchallenged message. On balance, I felt we should leave the status quo in place.”
His successor Noel Dempsey has reaffirmed this view (unison.ie archives):
“In 2003 my predecessor, Dermot Ahern, conducted a review of the ban on religious advertising and decided the ban should remain. Having regard to the potential intrusive nature of advertising on radio and television, which is different from other forms of advertising, it was considered that it was not desirable for individual groups to be in a position to buy airtime to deliver an unchallenged message that is aimed at influencing and altering behaviour in society in circumstances where it is difficult for the public to test or verify positions advanced."
The European Court of Human Rights recently found in the case of Roy Murphy v Ireland that a ban on religious advertising did not constitute a violation of Article 9 (dealing with freedom of religion) or Article 10 (dealing with freedom of expression) of the European Convention on Human Rights. Mr. Murphy, a pastor attached to the Irish Faith Centre was effectively precluded from broadcasting an advertisement for a screening of a video dealing with "the historical facts about Christ" and "evidence of the resurrection". (courtesy ECHR website) It has thus been found that such a ban on religious advertising is indeed justifiable, and in the public interest. Why then, does the national broadcaster; give the Church what can only be perceived as an endorsement of their views; a regular spot on prime-time television?
The Broadcasting Complaints Commission of Ireland's mandate is to ensure impartiality in news & current affairs. They have not fulfilled their obligations in this regard. Clearly it is also hypocritical on RTE’s part to pump out such dogma night after night. It is said that the Angelus is a time for reflection, to take a few moments out of our day to reflect on all that we have been given. A few moments' peace is of course a desirable thing, but not where it is achieved by encouraging us to spend this time thinking about the god of one particular religion. This is clearly not on. It is high time that RTE remove all Christian symbolism and iconography from this broadcast. Wesley Boyd, a former head of news at RTE has stated that it is clearly discriminatory: (courtesy unison archives)
"a practice unique to one religion being imposed daily on the population at large, including those of us who do not subscribe to that religion."
RTE has responded by saying that:
“(they)…did not consider it offensive or divisive, more a personal approach in people's lives calling them to cease activity and reflect”
However, as I have already pointed out, the Angelus owes its roots to a distinctly Roman Catholic tradition, having been ascribed to Pope Urban II, by some to Pope John XXII, according to Wikipedia. I concur with Mr. Boyd on this matter, in re-iterating the belief that a broadcast including images of crosses, churches and cathedrals is biased towards those of a particular faith.
As both a license fee holder, and a taxpayer, my contributions support RTE, and are being used to help fund this daily devotion in memory of the Incarnation. The Six-One News broadcast on RTE1 is watched by hundreds of thousands of viewers each night, (according to the official Nielsen rating scheme, details on medialive.ie) and we are being subjected to this sermon each time. A semi-state body such as RTE has no place in transmitting these views. Our country is becoming increasingly multicultural, with many and varied ideologies now to be found. Nowhere are these many diverse views given such a platform as that which the Catholic church currently enjoys.
The Angelus does not reflect my own views, and they do not reflect the views of a sizable minority of the population. The Angelus should be scrapped altogether, in order that we can live in harmony in a secular state.
national |
rights, freedoms and repression |
opinion/analysis
Monday April 03, 2006 20:08
by Lefty type
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Comments (45 of 45)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45Well I don't know where I'd be if I didn't have a minute of staring out the window with my crochet poised in the air. And how else would we know the Six One news was about to start? Honestly!
you are a busy man alright....the angelus....you come across as a dogmatic anti-religionist.
and you quote Ahern and dempsay on the ban on religious advertising....!
"not desirable for individual groups to be in a position to buy airtime to deliver an unchallenged message that is aimed at influencing and altering behaviour in society in circumstances where it is difficult for the public to test or verify positions advanced"
sounds like every add on tv to me....... every add you hear or see IS SOLELY AIMED at "influencing and altering behaviour in society "...and the positions advanced every day, every hour is the vision of life as an entirely material experience.
I was baptised. I reject the instution of Catholicism and most forms of organised belief....and i came to believe that the only value was tolerance, based on reason. That peace on earth could reign if life were organised on the basis of reason.
However, recently i have begun questionin this attitude......why?
well, who decides what is reasonable...?
On what are the values of a secular society based? Why for example is it wrong to abuse children? Who says it's wrong to murder? Can murder sometimes be reasonable?
The vision of a secular society was advanced by the likes of Rousseau and Voltaire. Behind both of their public writings lay private lives led in a very questionable way. Rousseau abandoned his wife and children...Voltaine had connections to the slave trade.
I am not advocating Theocracy......that usually ends up being Rule of the Strong Men Behind The Men with the HOly Books.
I'm just sharing with you some of my present excogitations.....There is an undenyable crisis of values in the WEstern World today....
Secularism is part of that crisis. Upon what is secularism based?
Sorry i can't get any more indept that that at the moment...i have to go now.....
go n-eiri leat
the Angelus to a modern way of life in Ireland.I belive the Blizzard of odd showed a more realistic Ireland.
Instead of people pausing in unrealistic day to day tasks ,like making tea,crocheting,gardening etc etc .Who has time for this domestic nonsense anymore in Ireland,dont we all have cheap labour from afar to do this??
Why not have;
A dealer and junkie pausing during a deal to observe a minute?
A hitman pausing before shooting his victim?[And victim pegging it?]
A hooker and client before hitting the sack pausing and gwaping out the brothel window?
A rich busisnessman pausing before handing over a envelope to a greaseball politico?
Anti war hairies pausing before storming Shannon airport terminal?[Stare off into the West awhile,it looks quite good].
If religion wants to get more people back it has to get with the times.
Just change the channel
The Blizzard of Odd shamelessly stole that idea from an irish short film a few years ago.
The Angelus is not offensive. THe vast majority of the country are catholics so what is the problem? I've yet to hear anyone say they are offended by the sounds of a bell tolling. I'm not that religious but I like the idea of pausing for thought once a day. If you are of a different religion, sure pause for thought and think of that.
The Angelus must be the least offensive, divisive religious practice in the world.
Could you imagine going to Turkey and asking them to stop the call to prayer?
Just leave it alone, and concentrate your energy on something more worthwhile, I don't know, something like the injustice in Africa, you know something that is worthwhile
thats not the answer. theres a compulsary license fee and rte also gets additional state funds. why should it push one religion? why not have imams crying at 6 am? why not hare krishnas chanting?
What next? Stop showing the All Ireland finals and the Patrick's Day parade because they are not part of the culture of immigrants?
perhaps i expressed myself in a clumsy manner. i have opposed the angelus being broadcast on rte for many years, i still want it to go. i certainly dont want to hear imams wailing on rte (the only wailers i like are bob marleys). i dont want to see any religious ceremonies on rte. there is now a danger that in the name of multiculturalism, the angelus will be kept but we will also get the imams wailing at 6 am calling the faithful to prayer. budhists and hindus will get to om at us 4 times a day.
lets seperate church and state. lets seperate religion from state sponsored tv. if religions want to set up pay per view/subscription tv then let them.
I love the sound of bells and the Angelus broadcast over the RTE waves is a beautiful thing - as are the hymns of the Catholic Church. The demons who ever thought of bringing English into the mass ought to have their tongues cut out. I am not a particularly religious person but the sound of bells, the smell of incense, the glory of hearing beautiful singing voices in the Catholic ceremony of mass is a wonderful thing which only a true bigoted heathen would oppose, only a destructive mind would wish to obliterate. Imagery is a wonderful thing. Leave it alone. Does the sound of bells really bother you people? Soon you will want pubs abolished. Well you have already abolished the serenity of the pub with the introduction of televisions and large screens. Smokers banished to streets as if they were lepers or something. Leave well enough alone. There is something kindly reassuring about the sound of ringing Angelus bells. The real bells are inside the heads of the people who want them rid of. If this crap continues, the riddance of everything I love about my culture - I will have to join another culture - like the immigrants who are allowed to keep their culture while I lose mine.
Your points about the contradictions in the Constitution are well made. Yes, it could and should be updated. It would be far better to base it on the consent of the people to be governed in accordance with the norms and standards of a civil society (insofar as we can agree on what that means!) rather than deriving its authority from any supernatural source.
However, the angelus is a different matter. In a fair civil society, freedom of belief in any or no religion is axiomatic. A logical extension is that media must be free to broadcast religious programming. Suppose an interdenominational service in memory of victims of US imperialism was planned in Dublin? Would you object if TV3 were to broadcast it? If the angelus were to be scrapped, then so must every other form of religious service. But where would that leave, say, a lecture by Richard Dawkins which advocated athiesm. Scrap that too? Broadcast it and give organised religion a right of reply?
RTE as a state funded broadcaster is different. TV3 etc, may broadcast whatever the audience will watch, within the limits of whats permitted by the broadcasting acts and their license. RTE is required to show "balance." Is 2 minutes of angelus each day (or 0.14% of its output) really that unbalanced? Hardly? Equally, would the elimination of that 2 minutes be unbalanced in the opposite direction. Not really. This is no morethan a programming decision by RTE. Like do we cover Champions League or Heineken Cup? Coronation Street or Inspector Morse? Election night coverage from USA or France? Christmas Day messages from the Catholic, C of I, Presbyterian, Methodist, Jewish and Islamic religions? Angelus or no angelus? Its not a matter of grand principle, just an everyday programming decision. Which is ultimately under the control of the RTE Authority appointed by the Government elected by the people. Not perfect, but the best system we've got.
"The Angelus must be the least offensive, divisive religious practice in the world."
This comment is clearly bullshit.I say to he/she who made it,look at the Abgelus toniight,
it is NOT diverse,there are images of Crosses,statues of Mary,Jesus and all the rest of the crew.
Sure,they dont dominate the entire minute but they are there nonetheless-I dont see any images
of Allah,Buddha,Jah or any of the other imaginary gods..
"Stop showing the All Ireland finals and the Patrick's Day parade because they are not part of the culture of immigrants?"
Yes,thats right Catholicism is the culture of Ireland and Ireland alone,like Gaelic Football and Paddys Day.
This issue has absolutely fuck all to do with immigrants or their culture,it has to do with a publicly
funded state broadcaster pumping out religious propaganda to the entire viewership because of an
outdated culture of religious sectarianism and bias.Many of those arriving in Ireland are Catholics as
are many Irish people,but many of each are not and it is unfairto spend taxpayers hard-earned cash and
licence fees on something that is discriminatory,outdated and downright lacking in any sort of diversity-
"concentrate your energy on something more worthwhile"
Some of us are capable of multitasking.Spending half an hour writing an article about a topic does
not in any way mean that one is concentrating every waking minute on that issue.Common mistake.
I suggest you give up your job and concentrate on real work such as improving standard of living in poor countries
if that is your opinion
"The demons who ever thought of bringing English into the mass ought to have their tongues cut out"
Says it all really.
And remember-Stand,sit,knell,stand,kneel,sit,stand,sit and repeat after me....
So does that mean you ARE in favour of also ending coverage of the All Ireland and Paddy's Day? I am not a Catholic but see nothing offensive in the Angelus any more than I do in the New Year's message from the Rabbi of Ireland, Protestant services on Sunday mornings, Daniel O'Donnell, Bored Housewives, or Podge and Rodge. And really, yourself and others who are upset should just turn over channels or get a life.
I do indeed have a life and thankfully am normally engaged in it at the times the boing boing goes out each
and every day.As regards switching over the channel,that is an option but it is one that I shouldnt be forced
into taking.
If I tune in at 6 pm to get a round-up of the days events,under no circumstances should I be forced to sit through
even one minute of religious proipaganda.
The States constitution provides that it will protect all religious beliefs and that includes those who are non-religious.However the State TV channel is ignoring this dictum and instead continues to pump out partisan,indoctrinating propaganda twice daily at key6 times when large audiences are tuning in.
The grip of the Catholic Church,which for so long crippled this country is slipping away thankfully and State TV
has no obligation,responsibility or right to attempt to stem that positive tide.
State televisdion is obliged to purport to represent the entire community,and it is not doing so by broadcasting
these images daily.
The Patricks Day Parade and All-Ireland Football Final matches are cultural events,one a DAY of being proud of our heritage and the other a DAY of sport.Why dont we just have a minute twice a day of these images instead?Because it would be pretty damn boring,pointless and repetitive to do so,like the angelus.
But at least these events dont discriminate against the many in society who have long since seen through the fear,brainwashing and indoctrination of religion and its insatitutions.
Its not about turning over the channel or getting a life,its simply about raising these issues and opening previously unchallenged areas for debate,as humanity evolves so must our state TV channel,beyonds the relics of a bygone era to the more diverse and multicultural society we live in today.
Well I'm glad you are not against taking the All Ireland off the air at least! Seriously though, the Angelus is pretty harmless and is no more a threat to us non Catholics/non-believers than any of the other religious programmes of whatever faith appear on RTE. Or do you beleive they should all be taken off? As for your reference to multi-culturalism, surely if other cultures are to be officially recognised then so ought the religious culture of the majority?
Im not suggesting that the Angelus really is all that dangerous as such,but it cannot be denied that its an
easy way of daily reminding people of God Almighty and to be afraid and all the rest of it-kind of a little
top-up twice daily in between Sundays.
Those of us who are enlightened enough in our non-belief and self-realisation may not be in danger of
being so-influenced but it is undoubtedly in certain ways detrimental to others reaching the same logical conclusions we have.
The other religious programmes you speak of that appear on RTE are invariably not state-funded or
produced and as such are not costing the tax-payer or license-feeholder as much-also these programmes
are not pumped out in such a systematic,routine manner at pivotal times during the day to catch the greatest audience.
The religious culture of the majority IS recognised -in the churches,community and parish halls,sermons
and servicxes that happen every day freely in this country.There is a difference between recognising the
culture of a majority and forcing it down the throats of a sizeable minority on State-run television.
I'm not sure that the Angelus is a massive drain on the Exchequer. Of course the other religious programmes cost money - camera men, production, lost advertising space etc, etc. Not that I begrudge it. That's public service broadcasting's role. Just as it is to cover sports and music that I don't like or that have little audience appeal, arts, etc, etc. Also I beleive you are being slightly condescending to religious beleivers. I am not one but I don't feel myself to be intellectually or morally superior because of that.
I think its important to try and recliam the moral highground from those who deem themselves enlightened
and saved and all the rest of it.As the world is spiralling into religious divisonfueled by greed and political
ambition dont think its our place as atheists/humanists/whatever to just sit back and take the back seat as the big religions continue pumping out intolerance and the promised land.
My condascending comments may be alittle harsh and for that I step back as I nelieve in a society of tolerance,
however pointing out many of the reasons why more and more people are concluding that the facts given them
are in fact myths is an important act-let me put it this way-If one was to come out and claim aliens came from
the sky and impregnated thier female friend,one would be ridiculed,laufghed at and possibly confined to a mental institution.
However speaking flippantly of the miracle of immaculate conception and all the rest of the supernatural
phenomena beleivers hold so dear and dismissing them as equally ridiculous as those beleivers themselves
would consider the alien-based story is considered very intolerant and impolite as well as condascending.
Its time we as a society got back to basics.We believe oursaelves to be the most developed,advanced and logical as we have ever been.Yet we still hold onto these mythical fantasy tales as if they were truth and scientific fact.
Speaking flippantly about them is a means of questioning their validity and challenging people to leave their comfort
zones and think differntly,openly and independently.
Anyway,Historian,must dash to my life now-keep the faith!
Be Afraid,be very afraid!Of both sides!
for a publicly, funded state broadcaster to give it such a prominent regular position in the viewing schedules is biased.
Sounds of bells are not inherently offensive in and of themselves, but for what they represent. i.e. a church bell ringing as a call to prayer. Now I don't mind taking a few moments out of the day to reflect on what is going on in the world, but If it is supposedly a time for reflection, then how come we are encouraged to spend this time reflecting on what "God" (sic) has given us? I think Euronews has a much better alternative, in its "no comment" section, whereby striking (and diverse) images are used from what has happened during that particular day and no editorial is given. One is left to ponder these images in one's own time. NOT as RTE imply.
Yes, fair enough interrupt your cup of tea or your knitting or your bingo or whatever to chill out for a moment. But NO it is not fair enough for a publicly, funded state broadcaster to encourage people to use this time to pray to a Roman Catholic God. This is nothing but propaganda, used to maintain the status quo.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Angelus is a Catholic institution, there is no doubting that. It has toned down its overtures in recent years, however the imagery used, as well as the very nature of the custom itself is overtly Catholic. And as a non-Catholic, I find it offensive. Sure, I can change channels, but why should I have to in order to avoid this blatant pushing of Catholicism?
I have nothing against diverse religious programming being shown, mass on Christmas day or the stoning of the pillar during Hajj or whatever the Jews do during passover etc. Why, when PJP2 passed on, I was both intrigued and entertained by the coverage of his life and works, his visits abroad over the years and his multitude of funny hats. However there is nothing diverse or representative about the Angelus, no matter how many Tokens you use in the imagery.
And to fearshule who contends that a secular society is a society without morals, I would regard myself as a humanist. I'm not going to preach my beliefs at you other than to say that I think humanism has developed enough to rebut that accusation. You want to know more, go do your own soul-searching. Take a minute out or something...
Lefty type, it just so happens that none of the other religions have anything special to do at 6pm.
Plus, the Angelus only lasts two minutes. So maybe you can keep your violent anti-Catholicism - which is what's really at issue here - bottled up for that long, okay?
Like it or not, Catholicism is part and parcel of Irish culture, and there are plenty of things that people appreciate about this. So get over your Jacobinism and give us a break.
when I am in a Muslim country I love the sound of the Imam's call to prayer - it is part of the landscape - as is the Angelus in a my Catholic country - which Ireland is. It is part of who we are and who we were. Leave it alone. Leave us alone. Leave us to our sounds and imagery and landscape. Go off to Muslim countries and tell them you are insulted by their calls to prayer - their mosaic tiles - their veils and djellabas. I'm sure that offends you as well but the Irish Catholic is easy prey - an easy target in this new politicallly correct era...enough...please.....go away with yourself....
The simpler the stimulus, the more effective and cost efficient it is. Pavlov favoured using bells too. However Watson preferred to beat a hammer off a metal pipe to provide stimulus.
"I' m not a religious type and I don't know why but I want the Angelus to stay."
Does it work or what?
Forget the Angelus althought it's a fine article and a fine argument, aim higher. Practically everything RTE broadcasts is an affront to sovereignty, nationality, pluralism and decency. Close RTE. Everyone wins.
Related Link:- http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74090
Scrapping RTE would benefit you perhaps, Sean, but I for one would be gutted by the demise of a great broadcaster such as RTE radio. I have had the distinct pleasure of listening to Paddy OGorman's travels throughout Ireland - being totally engaged with his interviews with ordinary workers, musicians, new people to Ireland, etc - a brilliant spectrum offered to me in their own words. I have also received great pleasure listening to Joe Duffy's program, who I find particularly engaging and unbiased in his presentations - and quite funny I might add. I have lived in a great many countries and I truly believe Ireland has a gem of a broadcaster in RTE - especially the Radio arm of its license. Leave the bleeding Angelus alone, will you. Bells are beautiful - as is spirit - and you can bless your own spirit with whatever imagery the bells evoke for you. As I have said before - I am not a particularly religious person but there are certain rites and ceremonies which I am terribly fond of - and the Angelus is one of them. I am not a Muslim but I love the sound of the Imam's call to prayer - they could be calling out 'death to the Irish' and I wouldn't know it - but it still wouldn't stop me from loving the sound of the prayer and the exoticism of it. I find the linear thought processes of many of the contributors to this thread quite disarming.
And to Starstruck 'cut their tongues out' is an expression. I never advoctated the removal of that muscle. Has your mother never said that to you or 'wash you mouth out with soap'? It's just an expression. So your 'that's says it all' line is quite misleading to your backers for your theories. If I told you to 'go to hell' do you really think I would like you to burn to bits in that great imaginary firepit? Lighten up Starryears....
It seems as if we meet at different ends of an argument again Blaise. I'll stay above the belt if you will.
I personally scrapped RTE years ago. I don't own either a tv or a radio. But I'll tell you, I'd like to get one of them big wide-screen jobs with surround sound and the works, To play dvd's on etc.
If I were to buy this equipment, I'd be in posession of equipment capable of receiving a signal. And therefore liable to pay the license/extortion fee.
If you like listening to genuine people, why do you listen to these second hand experiences when you could be out experiencing them?
Back to RTE broadcasting signals. It will only be a matter of time before RTE fuckwits figure out that I can listen to the radio over the internet, and then come after me for their handout.
Shit I myself am equipment capable of receiving their signals. Which brings me to a different slant on this argument. These signals: Are they good for me? You know as they bounce off me and through me at the speed of light? Is it beneficial radiation?
'Don't be silly you say.' (I assume)
'They don't hurt you.'
But they must have some effect. It's just a case as to whether this effect is beneficial or harmful. My bet is on harmful. Acceptable levels and all that good malarky. Tis assurances all round folks. Everythings fine, sit the fuck down and suck a coke.
Bong...........Bong............Bong
I hope we have not become used to TV that we include it in the soundscape of "our landscapes". The call to prayer from the minarets in islamic societies and the tolling of the bells in catholic countries are one thing, the one minute "bong+boing+" on national TV at 18h00 every day every year is quite another. The best moment to do a coup d'etat the really traditional way in Ireland would be at 17h59.
Tanks out on the street, into the HQ of RTE, gun to the back of the producers head, "ok, play that on loop". The first to know we were facing a military junta would be the old dears at about 18h07 when they began to realise there had been too much "bong+boing+" and Community Garda hadn't yet appeared to explain to them how to
* drug the cat
* bludgeon the birds
* stop eating chicken wings
* fit a face mask
* buy Tamiflu on the black market.
You're all going to die from H5N1. Before that, I'd like ye all to go out on a cultural & poetic note :-
The Blackbird Of Derrycairn
by Austin Clarke
Stop, stop and listen for the bough top
Is whistling and the sun is brighter
Than God's own shadow in the cup now!
Forget the hour-bell. Mournful matins
Will sound, Patric, as well at nightfall.
Faintly through mist of broken water
Fionn heard my melody in Norway.
He found the forest track, he brought back
This beak to gild the branch and tell, there,
Why men must welcome in the daylight.
He loved the breeze that warns the black grouse,
The shouts of gillies in the morning
When packs are counted and the swans cloud
Loch Erne, but more than all those voices
My throat rejoicing from the hawthorn.
In little cells behind a cashel,
Patric, no handbell gives a glad sound.
But knowledge is found among the branches.
Listen! That song that shakes my feathers
Will thong the leather of your satchels.
be Afraid. Be very afraid.
"The first to know we were facing a military junta would be the old dears at about 18h07 when they began to realise there had been too much "bong+boing+" and Community Garda hadn't yet appeared to explain to them how to
* drug the cat
* bludgeon the birds "
My cat takes his own drugs thank you very much. Hes not at all dogmatic when it comes to religion, skips around when the Angelus bell rings. He knows how to bludgeon the birds and hes not going to eat anything as fowl as pigeons or crows. Might try a Swan though.
the old dears are contemplating the divine mysteries, like Teresa the little flower almost in ecstasy at the passion of the Lord, whilst the others are catching the 6pm news on BBC.
As long as it lasts only one minute - no harm done.
Interesting wikipedia entry on the phenomona which is the 6.01 news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-One_News
lovely girl. no dirt on her. an example to follow.
My cat finds the Angelus rather puzzling, like why do those heads suddenly stop what they are doing. He always gets excited when George Galloway appears on TV, he does a great impression of George lauding DSaddam: "Mr President, I salute your...".
Anyway the Angelus has top go, otherwise we'll have mullahs wailing on RTE 5 tiomes a day anf Buddhists anf Hindus Omming us to death. (Someones bound to take an equality case on it.)
Pat - that's exactly why it should stay - the Mullahs and the Hindi can rail and ohmm their prayers in their own lands where they have unadultered access to protect their own culture. This is a Catholic nation until usurped by the newly landed - as I said earlier - nobody would dare to go their countries and ask for their institutions rid of - and so it should be here.
we both know the Angelus is not going. Just as we know the flags in Patricks national CofI cathedral in Dublin aren't going, Exactly as we know the "royal" in front of the Royal Irish Academy http://www.ria.ie/ or the Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland http://www.rcsi.ie/ or the Royal Dublin Society http://www.rds.ie/home/index.aspx , or any of the other "royal" Irish names knocking about the place. But we also know how to do politics. Or maybe only I do....
I'm telling you all a regular 6 pm megaphone or van with sound system romp about town starting with the reading of "bong + boing + bong + boing +" and then followed a short news-service or agititation slogan broadcasting session will not only :-
* reap results.
* be a lot of fun.
* guarantee the Angelus stays where it is, and shake the Angelus supporters thing so we can see exactly who they are these days.
* prove to be a little needed exercise and may help the organisation and preparation for May Day 2006, since there are less than 4 weeks to go.
* give you time away from your cat .
* allow people a more meaningful way of achieving collective action than simply reading email lists and wondering will they ever get "p-r-i-v-e-l-a-g-e-s".
It would of course really help from an indymedia perspective, I presume if photos and video and write-ups and sound files accompanied the "Bong + Boing + Bong + Boing, we too feel "fkd" by FF and thats we're reading the news to you"
For all people who believe that religion and state should not be influenced by the other, please remember:
Stalin: Obliterated religion in Russia-Result: deaths of 8 million Jews.
Hitler: Obliterated religion in Germany - Result: deaths of 4-6 million Jews.
Chairmain Mao: Obliterated religion in China-Result: almost 70 million died.
(All done in the name of Atheism. As the church was thrown out, moral and right action were obsolete. Survival of the fittest became a new religion and the fittest being were the religious order)
As people get older they do have more self -realisation. Ultimately for the majority of individuals that leads to a form of religious or moral belief. I rejected, completely, the catholic teachings I was brought up with. I then found my self rediscovering them through self-realisation only to discover that many religions had done so in the past.
St. Patrick introduced Catholicism to Ireland and as "Historian" argues it should be kept as it is a cultural tradition. If you were to define on that basis what a "cultural tradition" is then you would find that the Angelus would fall into the same category.
Another thing is, as person rediscovering Catholicism, it that I acknowledge the fact that my religious beliefs could be wrong, just as much as I did as an atheist.
Most of the physicists working at CERN (Centre for Nuclear Research) believe in a God. They are the foremost experts in the origins of the Universe. They say that no matter how much the fabric of the cosmos can be broken down, that there must be a fundamental constant. To fill the void we (they) believe, rightly or wrongly in (a) God. The Universe exists. That fact alone must presuppose that something created it. The nature of the Universe is entropy - to fall from a state of order to chaos. One of the inherent natures of man seems to be to create order from choas.
It took a very long time for me to realise that it was the instution of religion that I was rejecting because it bored me so much as child (bow, knell, repeat after me), and not religion, or the concept of goodness, right thought and right action. Then I realised that if want to share my way of life I would have the write down what I have found. Then I saw that that was the ultimate goal of religion, to guide people to live good lives.
So, leave the Angelus alone. I need something to remind me to reflect each day. Whether I behaved as an aethist or catholic on that day is irrelevant. The 6.1 news will show you the horror of the world, shouldn't we be promoting a religion or right way of living? (and before you say it, law does not do the same.
You cannot have an antithesis unless there is something to atheiate! - On that, it down to belief, out of love, not fear,to decide where best to hedge you bets. A world with religion to me (even if its wrong) is better than a world without, in the same way that in this country there might be some unjust laws, we do not eliminate the entire rule of law.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! If you feel that your non-belief makes you better than other people can you not be the better man/woman and leave it, or do you have to stoop to our level and "force" you athiest beliefs onto the rest of us.
You seem to think that we are misguided people. If so, why are we in the majority? If self-realisation natually leds to atheism then why do not all of us naturally come to your conclusion? Brainwashing I here you say! I study, physics, religions, phsycology,philosophy,history, ancient history etc.. looking for the answers. My conclusion is that I will never absolutely be certain. All intelligent people throughout history realised that for human beings there is no such thing as absolute certainty. You seem to have found it! Can you pass it on to the scientists at CERN as it would solve a few problems we are having with our theories of quantum mechanics?
If you do, we can scrap the Angelus.
Tá cead Éireann ag inimiriceoirí agus ag lucht iarrtha tearmainn.
Tuige nach bhfuil cead Éireann ag Aingil?
This link shows the real agenda behind the motives of most who want to remove the Angelus from RTE - hint: it isn't liberty.
when the church bells are ringing on Sunday at 2.00pm, all the little sheep will march on
the curious Vatican idea of stopping -Climate Change- cos thats what sheeps do.
Follow the people who have not been arrested/imprisoned or brutalised over decades to bring the
issues into comsciousness. puts the whole dictatorial support for the destruction of Guatemala
and central america quite into context.
As a life long Pagan I rather enjoy the sound of Bells ringing.
Living as a culchie when the sound comes in over the bog from the West, it tells me that the weather has settled it's going to be fine and when the tolling comes from the South then rain is on the way.
If the sound of bells ringing offends, then my best advice is to wear ear plugs; alternatively if it is on the Radio or TV use the off button.
There are far more offensive sounds to be heard in Ireland other than the twice a day Angelus...... the twittering of tits for instance
and I don't mean the feathered kind.
I'm not a Catholic, but I say Keep the Angelus! As a Hindu, I'm not the least bit offended by it: glad of the reminder to say a prayer to God in my own way, and like the thought of doing that in company with other people across the land. It's a great tradition and does nobody any harm.
Are they still talking about the Angelus bell? Why not change the subject and talk about public displays of Christmas trees, cribs and pictures of Santa?
After that maybe we can go on to talk about the price of the pint.
Some of the most successful mass murderers in history were staunch secularists. Think Stalin. Ditto for the wars waged over the last two hundred years. How many did the secularists guillotine during the French Revolution? I'm not arguing for religion here, just against the small-mindedness that informs such views as those espoused by our worthy secularist author. Don't take such a bloody reductive view of things.Just because wars are fought in the name of religion does not mean religion is chiefly to blame. Beliefs don't fire guns. Such conterfactual thinking is damn lazy(because A occurred at the same time as B, we can positively state that without A there would have been no B).I'm not even remotely religious, but the drivel some people spout still rankles. Also, anyone who condemns an exhortation to contemplation and reflection is thoroughly misguided, especially when said exhortation is broadcast on the national station of a country that still describes itself as a majority Catholic state(see recent cencus. Even if the figures are inflated, it is still abundantly clear that this country is predominantly Catholic.). Ah, the great liberal secularists, who would deny their poor unenlightened, superstitious brethren one minute from the 1440 that make up the live-long day. Thank God for these great campaigners, without whom we might sink back into the morass of lazy, feckless thought and broad claims made without substantiation or any reference to the facts of the situation. Sound familiar?
The case against RTE broadcasting the Angelus is that RTE is a broadcaster funded by the state - that is, by taxes paid for all of us and that it is favouring the Catholic Church by broadcasting a call to prayer for that church, but not, say, an Imam calling Muslims to pray.
most religions have a call to prayer during the day . how about instead of calling it the angulas we call it the holy minute. i think thats were RTE are heading any way. Afew years ago the anguls was accompanied by a iconic image of the virgin, different one each week. south american interpritations, mary of the gael, italian mary etc since about the 90's it's been a video of people going about there day and just stoping. i like it so there
In response to the last post here is a much used quote:
A poor life this if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare."
W.H. Davies
And something written in a churchyard in Buckinghamshire:
The curfew tolls the knell of parting day,
The lowing herd wind slowly o'er the lea,
The plowman homeward plods his weary way,
And leaves the world to darkness and to me.
Thomas Gray
It tolls for thee (the Angelus that is)
It's past its sell-by date.
From the last stanza of Ode to a Nightingale:
Forlorn! the very word is like a bell
To toll me back from thee to my sole self!
Adieu! the fancy cannot cheat so well
As she is famed to do, deceiving elf.
John Keats
Personally I support the retention of The Angelus. I believe in respecting tradition and values. I believe in a pluralist society and I do not believe that acknowledging the faith of the vast majority of the population for two minutes a day is some sort of nefarious indoctrination.
There are real issues of justice, equality, poverty that could be tackled but the far left always prefer their simple little and irrelevant battles. Thankfully the people have more sense.
To recap.. Dermot said " I believe in the Angelus.
I believe in the bin tax
I believe in water rates
I believe I can fly... and with your help, some day I will"
Thank you .
What I actually said is I believe in a Pluralist Society and in that context I believe it is reasonable that with the Irish Population make up as it is I see no reason why the Angelus should not be aired.
Yes I do believe in Local taxation and appropriate Local Charges. i happen to believe that Waste Charges fall into that category.
Unlike so many posters on Indymedia I do not claim to have superior powers to anyone. Just a willingness to stand up for things I believe in irrespective of their popularity.