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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30This protest is a good idea. Who, besides the Socialist Party, is involved in organising it? Would be good to see something broad based happening on water charges.
If theres not a good crowd at this protest then it would be a failure for the sp who nhave been building it every saturday for about 3 years
if theres not a good crowd then it will be a setback for opposition to the charges. now who wwould want that?
My community group is quite involved in the Communities Against the Water Tax campaign. How come we haven't heard about this? Has the Socialist Party even TRIED to make this a big protest - by involving ALL the anti-water charges campaigns, the anti poverty network, trade unions etc - or is this just a solo run for the purposes of recruitment to the SP?
it would be great to see a large protest but it wouldnt be that big of A knock back if there wasnt. It would just show that
you cant build things in such a savagely sectarian way(if the above comment is true that other groups have been sidelined, which would be ludicrisly stupid)
Left group members posing as ordinary concerned community activists can be so transparent sometimes that you have to laugh. Nobody is going to believe for a second that "Mary" or some of the other posters above are really unaffiliated punters who happen to have been reading Indymedia and who happen to be involved in a local group which in turn happens to be involved in Communities Against the Water Tax. Why? Because there's barely a person in Northern Ireland who all that could apply to. If "Mary" and her friends above are confident that there is merit, above and beyond sectarian pointscoring, in what they are saying, why don't they come out and say it openly without the attempt to mislead?
The situation with regard to the Water Tax campaigns is complex. There is an umbrella group, led by the NIC-ICTU which seems to have faded away. There are a range of other groups, two of which have had any profile - the We Won't Pay Campaign and Communities Against Water Tax. The latter group seems to be moribund for the moment, certainly there has been little or no sign of activity for some time. I have no problem with any of these groups calling activities and no matter who calls an event everyone who is interested in opposing the water tax should support it.
That said there is a pressing need to ensure that non-payment becomes the strategy of the anti-water tax movement and an equally pressing need for a strong, broad campaign to organise that non-payment. This demonstration is intended as a small step towards achieving both of those goals and I'd urge any individual or group interested in that to build for the protest and get involved.
well i'm based in dublin but i'll certainly do everything i can to publicise this rally. i'm also sad to see people trying to undermine this effort.
i agree with pat c everyone should support this. Though all groups that are against water charges should be involved, its common sense in terms of building a proper rally.
There's nothing stopping any group which is opposed to the water charges from getting involved, "s", although the groups which don't see non-payment as key probably won't want to. For more information phone: 90311778 or 07743282321 e-mail: wewontpay@btconnect.com website: www.wewontpay.tk
Quote -'
'That said there is a pressing need to ensure that non-payment becomes the strategy of the anti-water tax movement and an equally pressing need for a strong, broad campaign to organise that non-payment. This demonstration is intended as a small step towards achieving both of those goals and I'd urge any individual or group interested in that to build for the protest and get involved'
This campaign has seen primarily the SP initiating and putting the shoulder behind the wheel of this for ages - and have seen them, regularly, and continually putting the graft in on the ground on this matter {I respect that} through their weekly stall and petition - {to which I always stop, sign, and donate to - when I come across it}
Having been involved in other things I , personally, have not had time to get involved in the campaign {s} against water charges - although had voiced support a long time ago for CAWT.
Reality Check is correct - that there seems to be little ongoing and visible at the moment from CAWT - but I do see the SP do a regular stall - and this now larger visible intiative is to be welcomed.
For onself, I will be calling and contacting all I know to lend support for this call and endorse their strategy.
Time is ticking and we need to put real momentum into a campign against this tax - and who knows this campaign may be able to drag others by the scruff of the neck along with it..
I, as recorded, have - and do - have had problems overtime with the SP - but respect their continued graft on this.
I know that there are other Campaigns - but would urge all to support any such initaitives against this water charges.
Therefore, although having already raised this with others, I do - and will - be urging all to not only attend - but to build for it, via various contacts and networks.
Can 'Reality check' inform us here as to when and where the campign meets.and the next open meetings, as so others can get involved in offering support to this SP initiative. and campaign -
Personally, I will send an e-mail now, as to find out more details - for involvement
Lets build that momentum - with this step forward!
In Solidarity - Davy Carlin - ATB
I felt the First of April "One Year to Water Charges" would be the perfect time organise a protest. I don't care who organises it I would hope everyone would get involved. I have supported the anti water charge coallition from the very start but sadly would conceed that waiting for them to do anything seems to be a forlorn exercise. I had already talked to members of my local Trades council about organising our own event on the first of April as I wasn't confident of the CAWC doing anything. I hope all groups who are serious about this campaign will get over their petty jealousy and support this planned action.
I'm in Co. Tyrone, not Belfast, so I have seen both the Socialist Party campaign and CAWT in operation. The first I have only seen doing street stalls in Cookstown, the second I have been at two different workshops they held with community groups about the arguments against privatisation and how to set up and run their own local CAWT group to organise a non-payment campaign.
Following the above debate here on Indymedia, I got in touch with the Anti Poverty Network - which is the group that came and held a workshop in my local area to get a group set up - to ask about CAWT. They confirmed what is said above - that there has been little street campaigning by CAWT over the last while. Rather, they have been concentrating on working with local community groups to get these groups organised to resist the imposition of water charges via a non-payment campaign. WHen I asked why they are not doing more on-the-street stalls and more protests, the woman I spoke to said it is because they think it's more important to get communities organised on a bottom-up basis than to have "the usual suspects" doing protests. When I argued that a bit of both would be a good idea, the woman agreed and said that they had been arguing with NICTU for another march in next few months. I also asked if they would back the Won't Pay Campaign protest on 1st April and she said they back all protests against water charges. However, she did say that they knew nothing at all about it and had not been contacted about it which is a bit strange since they all have each others emails and they send their info to the socialist party and would have hoped to be reciprocated.
Anyway, that's all the info I could get. I think the 1st April protest is a good idea - I only wanted to know why it isn't involving all the various groups, especially the community groups like my own and many others, that are organising themselves for non-payment but are not part of any political party [in fact, in my area, we have faced the opposition of the political parties to a nonpayment campaign]. The easiest way to contact these groups is through the anti poverty network. The email is info@niapn.org
I have sent e-mails out via various lists in regard to this protest. I am though not a member of the SP but support this call wholeheartenly and urge all to support and attend.
Indeed I am already getting replies back as to those who wish to show support for the 'We won't pay Campaign' - and again, urge them to contact the campaign via the website and through the contact details above -as they actually do get back to you.
Whatever the 'difference' and 'contact' between the groups, the fact is that a campaign group has called a protest. This is a good thing, 'whatever differences etc' and should be supported, and with that, momentum can build, as others may 'come on board' or indeed are inspired to do 'other further actions.
Indeed as i speak 'stirrings are ongoing at the moment, in that regard.
Personally I have 'formally' sent off to join the campaign -and the pledge, as I do see the specific tactics of the campaign as the way to win.
As stated, {whatever differences}, I do respect their long term - Visible - graft on this, and will have limited time , but time nevertheless, to get active on this issue.
So lets get those feet onto the street and support the 'We won't pay Campaigns ' call for action.
In Solidarity - Davy Carlin
Hey Davy, thought you were a member of Organise! and that it is part of Communities Against the Water Tax? Is this a split?
As stated before - times are a changing.
Yep I support CAWT when they do stuff and as stated, will personally , support the 'We won't pay Campaign.
Indeed I will personally support any campaign against water charges.
Quite simple really -
On a differing note -
I must say it was Excellent to read of so many at the Anarchist book fare - times are a changing indeed indeed indeed!
As quoted elsewhere re -the bookfare -
' I'd say that not only is the potential there for this to become an annual event but it could become a very big annual event'
Totally agree - and could begin to be replicated elsewhere .
The potential for Anarchist growth and such ways of 'Organising' will continue to 'mushroom' around Ireland as a whole - in the time ahead - methinks .
Indeed it has already 'ascended' in real terms in recent times - in Ireland as a whole.
So there will of course be, as always, many 'curious {es}, in that regard , as above.- D
To help out twith the protest contact the campaign on: wewontpay at btconnect dot com
Join the We Won't Pay Water Charges Protest on April 1st
did this protest go. any reports
did anyone go to this protest
I was at the protest and it was really great. it wasn't as people had called the 'usual suspects' of left groups or the any representative from the CAWT or the living dead since their campaign has not organised in a long time. it was genuine people, people who didnt usually get in politics like myself but wanted to make a difference.
the poster around the whole of belfast was presumably done by sp members will i say dont criticise people who have done something. all i say is next time get is more people in the community next time
so the we wont pay campaign was organised by the socialist party i dont care it did what it was supposed to do. other campaigns could either learn from this or as usual lack any independent thought and jump on this band wagon and this is for everyone from the swp to sinn fein.
get off your couches and do some real work
i agree with protestr goer. though his?her response is obviously not from a person who just wants to make a difference ie just ur average joe. why would such a person mention sp swp ect. any way regardless of who organised this., it was all done by the sp, lets face it, cause they have put a lot of work into it, and im certainly not sympethtic to the sp but they did do it ie "getting of their asses of the couches" or watever. so lets paint the picture. there is a massively anti workin class measure coming in to place(water charges) in a year. Todays protest had to be done. if it was to be sp then so be it. but it also showed that we must broaden and deeper the campaign. the sp have shown the way and fair play, but we no wat needs to be done, broaden, 200 hundred none payers is not enough. we need thousands
(though i thjink we wont pay nos this already, Ihope)
Also, I think protestr goer is confused between the Coalition Against the Water Tax - which is an ICTU attempt to stop anything happening - and Communities Against the Water Tax [CAWT] which continues to be active on the ground in local communities, giving people information about water charges, speaking at meetings organised by community groups and trying to get them to take a non-payment position.
However, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of co-ordination between the different campaigns. They are all part of the ICTU Coalition - which is aptly described as the living dead - but it seems to me that the "We won't pay" campaign and CAWT are each doing very valuable work and that work would be stronger if they were talking more to each other. We need the kind of city centre work that "We won't pay" campaign does in Belfast city centre (I'm told by someone who visits Derry regularly that in Derry it is CAWT that does the city centre work) But we also need the kind of slow, community development work that CAWT does as it will be vital to have all the community groups on side if it comes to people being jailed for non-payment.
Can Mary tell everyone what work Communities Against Water Tax is doing?
Which community groups have they spoken to?
How many have supported non-payment?
What makes you think that the WWPC does not do work in the local communities?
I wonder why 'Mary' has not replied to these questions.
Isn't it wonderfull how 'principle' just happens to co-incide with the financial interests of the services-charges protestors.
I will have respect for these leeches on the community when their 'principles' actually involve their financial detriment.
The blunt truth is, some folks just don't like having to pay their fair share and will always find some pretence for welching on their obligations to the community.
The late great Mella Carroll had the measure of these leeches when she banged them up.
Beyond the usual 'rent- a- (very small)-crowd', no tears were shed for these frauds.
“April fools” rally against water charges
JM Thorn
3 April 2006
On the first of April the We Won’t Pay Campaign staged an anti-water charges rally outside Belfast City Hall. This was to mark the countdown to the introduction of water charges and the creation of a new water company on the first of April 2007. The tag line for the rally was “don’t let Peter Hain make an April fool of you, don’t pay”. The rally, which had been heavily advertised and endorsed by a number of trade unions, drew a crowd of around 100 people.
The rally took the form of a range of people speaking from the platform. While they came form various backgrounds, one thing they did have in common was that they were all members of the Socialist Party. This was a reflection of the fact that the “We won’t pay campaign” is the creation of the Socialist Party. The tone of the event was set by the Socialist Party member who introduced each speaker. He said that the only way to beat the water charge was to refuse to pay, and that government was worried by the prospect of a non-payment campaign. He reiterated again that non-payment was the only tactic that could force the government to retreat, citing the examples of the anti-water charges campaign in Dublin and the poll tax in Britain.
The first speaker was Tony McGuire of the Fire Brigade’s Union. He argued that the driving force behind the water charges and the creation of a new water company were multi-national companies and their insatiable appetite for privatisation and more profits. He also warned that water charges were only the start, and that bin charges were next in the pipeline. People could send a clear message to government that these attacks were unacceptable by supporting the non-payment campaign.
The rally compere claimed that support for non-payment was high, citing two text polls on a popular local radio programme in which 70 per cent of respondents said they supported the tactic. However, he failed to mention that similar polls also recorded a high level of support for water metering.
The next speaker was Aideen McMullen of Queen’s University Student’s Union. She said that students would be particular badly hit by the water charges, which would most likely be passed on a by landlords in the rent. This represented a double tax, and the only way to defeat it was through non-payment.
Next up was Socialist Party councillor Clare Daley from Dublin. She recounted her involvement in the successful anti-water charges campaign in Dublin in the early nineties, but failed to mention the current bin charge dispute in Dublin. Rally organisers should be pleased with the attendance at the demonstration given that the charges are still 12 months away, and that people only realise their impact when they get a bill through the door.
In his next intro, the Socialist Party compere took up the theme of privatisation. Privatisation was what water charges were really all about, and that their introduction, along with the creation of the new water company, were a stage towards this. He cited the example of England and Wales, where water charges have risen dramatically, as evidence of what would happen if the Water Service was privatised.
This theme was taken up by the next speaker, the president of Nipsa, Billy Lynn. The water reform package was a double blow, there was the charges, but there was also the hundreds of redundancies in the Water Service. He said that private water companies were queuing up to take ownership of the north’s Water Service, and if they did there would be a poorer service as resources would be channelled into making more profits. He said that Nipsa would “do all it can” to stop the water charges and the privatisation of the Water Service.
The final speaker was Gary Mulcahy of the We Won’t Pay Campaign. He claimed that the government had been forced to delay the introduction of water charges and the creation of a new water company because of the level of opposition and fear of a mass non-payment campaign. Though he did admit that it was clear that the government intended to press ahead with its plans. Activists had 12 months to build an effective campaign. The key to this was building up local groups, and signing up residents to non-payment pledges. Such a campaign had to potential not only to defeat the water charge but also to unite workers across the sectarian divide. Gary ended his speech by reiterating the need for non-payment and theatrically ripping up a large “water bill”. The rally ended with the compere announcing that the Won’t Pay Campaign had already collected 40,000 non-payment pledges, and had set a target of 100,000 by the end of the year. The Campaign would also have a contingent on this year’s May Day parade and hold a conference later in the year.
The rally certainly hammered home the message of non-payment. However, this central message was also the main problem with the rally. It was merely repeating the slogans of a campaign that had been up and running for two years and that has met with markedly little success. Despite the rhetoric there is no appetite amongst the population of the north for non-payment. This is even more the case with the government’s ‘concessions’ on water charges that mean the poorest households will be paying £60 in the first year on their introduction. Who, apart from a few martyrs from the We Won’t Pay Campaign, is going to be taken to court, let alone sent to jail, over this?
It is welcome that the We Won’t Pay Campaign is now increasingly raising the issue of privatisation and placing the water charges in the context of a wider Government attack on the public sector. However, this makes the idea that non-payment as an adequate response even more ridiculous. It also lets the trade union leadership of the hook. Rather than seeking endorsement for rallies and non-payment, activists should be challenging the trade unions to organise industrial action against privatisation. This is the sort of action that could challenge water charges, also and lay the basis for a broader defence of workers living standards. To claim, as Billy Lynn did, that Nipsa, who represent most workers in the Water Service, are doing everything to oppose privatisation is a lie. There was a one day protest strike a year ago, and since them sections of the Water Service, such as water treatment, have been privatised without a trade union response. Also, there were many references to the anti-water charges campaign in Dublin, there were none to the more recent anti-bin charges campaign in which direct action tactics failed. Why have the lessons of this struggle been ignored?
Overall the meeting reeked of dishonesty. Speaker after speaker marshalled arguments for non-payment and against a broader campaign based on opposition to privatisation without ever acknowledging that there was an anti water charges movement outside of their own ranks – even with the banner of the Campaign Against Water Privatisation in front of their faces and the presence of an ATGWU banner. ATGWU do not support non-payment.
There was an even greater reek of sectarianism. The platform consisted only of the Socialist Party. Even Belfast anarchists who had helped build the rally were excluded.
The two factors together mean that the Socialist Party are unserious about water charges. They can’t, even in their wildest dreams, imagine that their party can act alone to defeat the British government on a central plank of their policy. Their decision to organise separately and avoid debate with the other currents opposing water charges means that they are simply running a recruiting drive for their own party.
That means that finally they are ineffective. Despite an intensive campaign, getting motions through union conferences and being able to draw on the financial resources of Nipsa, they were unable to build a rally that was little bigger than their own members and the rest of the left.
There is still the possibility of building an effective opposition to water charges and privatisation. With their current level of dogmatism and sectarianism the Socialist Party won’t be part of it.
Quote - 'There is still the possibility of building an effective opposition to water charges and privatisation. With their current level of dogmatism and sectarianism the Socialist Party won’t be part of it.'
Isn't that statement in itself partly sectarian perhaps?
One point I will touch on presently, as it has been raised by 'all' outside the SP who I had talked to who where there. That is, that every speaker on the platfrom was SP including the MC. This I, as will others raise at the next meeting. This is an essential point, as if we are 'to build a broad campaign' then that situtation does not reflect that statement. Indeed it has already put some of getting further involved - presently.
The SP of course cannot build this campaign alone - and having only recently been involved I am not sure of what their engagement is with other campaigns, again as a collective campaign that will be raised at next meeting.
If this campaign is to succeed it will have to reach out with fraternal workings with others, to be democratic and accountable and to build within local communites. If not, myself and I know others will not get further involved otherwise. The SP have did good work over recent years but if this campaign is to move forward then such points will have to be taken onboard - if not, I believe, then the campaign will go no - where.
The SP will of course be a vital part in that - but it cannot be a case of 'ourselves alone' it is about building an effective mass based campaign with democratic and accountable structures and representative platforms etc. I believe though that that will come, and I believe the SP are savie enough to undertsand that, and political secure enough to work with that, as they have in the past. D
What planet are you on?
As I obviously ain't on the one your on, as per your 'contribution.
BTW - the one I'm on is called earth, last I heard - what one are you on perchance?
What planet are you on?
I was talking about the guy who posted before you.
OOPS -I will have to get back to earth ASAP.
Thought it was refereing to me - Sorry!