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Collection Motion Deafeated At Dublin Council Meeting

category dublin | bin tax / household tax / water tax | news report author Tuesday February 07, 2006 01:22author by Onlooker Report this post to the editors

"We will hammer them" says City Manager.

An emergency motion last night (Monday) at Dublin City Council proposed by Joan Collins and seconded by Sinn Féin, to resume the collection of bins in areas where the bin tax wasn't being paid, was defeated by 18 votes to 15.

The motion was brought when the City Manager decided on a policy of non-collection three weeks ago, and many councillors were worried about the repercussions this might have on the health of residents.

Many had taken the time to voice their opposition to the bin charges, on their way home from work. If the presence of a few was noticed by councillors before 5:30 in the evning before the meeting began, they were made audibly aware of it within the chamber as the demonstration reached a crescendo between an hour later. Chorusses of "No Way; We Won't Pay" could be heard vying with several of the councillors speaking on a motion to sell off Dublin's public housing stock at this time.

The motion was last on the agenda however, and wasn't heard until twenty to ten. By then, there was little room for debate.

Naoise O Murrai was the first to speak against, saying that people have to pay for services.

Clrs. Hedderman, Lacey and Creehan then spoke against. Creehan said that the motion was populist because it was popular, and among others, said that it was being done for narrow political reasons. "God loves a tryer", said Creehan, "but Joan should know better at this stage".

One councillor said of the crowd he'd seen earlier; "I asked Joan were they the bin tax or the poster people".

Several Councillors voiced their concern about illegal dumping and the public health impications of non-collection. One said that the Council would have egg on its face if next year's Supreme Court judgement went against them.

Clr. Eric Byrne (Lab), supported the motion, but said that the causes of illegal dumping would have to be addressed, and had reservations on that score.

The City Manager was the last to speak, saying that it didn't matter which way the Council voted anyway, and that he would expedite the Supreme Court case. He said that non-payers would be pursued to the last, and "We will hammer them".

20 councillors were absent as the motion was defeated and non-collection endorsed.

Three other items of note which were given the attention of the council:

Compulsory Purchase Order for Dartmoor Square which wsa once owned by the Corporation and has now been turned into a private park.

40 minutes was given to a proposal by Dublin Business Association to set up a Business Interests District in the centre of Dublin, to make the place tidy and get rid of graffitti.

The Lord Mayor received warm approval when she proposed that an "unsung heroes awards" be set up to reward community-based volunteers for their hidden work. She said that the city would grind to a halt if it wasn't for such people, and the community spirit needed to be revitalised.

You'd never know, perhaps we'll see some indymedia-heads stepping forward to accept or reject the these municipal accolades.

author by Onlookerpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 09:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Early in the evening, a motion to increase the Lord Mayor's salary from €53,000 to €63,000 (just under 20%), was approved by majority, with Sinn Féin being the only Party to oppose it.

author by Curiouspublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Any ideas besides from Sinn Fein and the indo's who made up the 15?

author by Tom Joadpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

who were the ones who were absent

author by Onlookerpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 16:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Votes for the motion
all 10 Sinn Féin
all 3 independents
Eric Byrne of Labour.

The last of the 15 I'm not too sure, but 'twas either Dr. Bill Tormey (FG) who said he'd vote for it on health grounds, or John Gallagher (Lab).

Spelling correction from above - clr. Creehan is Clr. Lucinda Creighton (FG). I mustn't have been followin' her career that avidly. - populist heh! Herself and Naoise made the point that 1/4 are covered by waiver schemes, but Joan Collins doesn't let them nkow this.
Ó Muirí said that the council could privatise the lot in the morning and have no waivers at all, so there was no reason for complaint.

Joan points out that 40,000 have not paid at all or in part, the bin tax. That's a lot of hammerin' for the City Manager regardless of next year's Supreme Court verdict (which may conceivably be jjust).

author by Dermot Lacey - Councillorpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 16:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In fact several of my Labour colleagues supported the motion so clearly not all ten SF Councillors were present or else some of them did not vote for it.

author by Interestedpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 16:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In the interests of fairness it should be pointed out that the City Manager was speaking of those who dump waste illegally and not bin charge protestors when he spoke of "hammering them".

Ask your local councillor if you don't believe this.

author by onlookerpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 16:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So he sees a difference, does he? Maybe he'll stop his pursuit through the courts with non-payers then.

author by c murray - TaraWatchpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 17:06author email dotliath at eircom dot netauthor address n/aauthor phone 4978026Report this post to the editors

Trace the issue of the bin-tax debate, and you don't have
to go far to see that Cllr Lacy was the man who
used his casting vote to bring in the estimates which
led to the bin charges on one occasion.
on another the green party held the balance.
The issue should be researched.
I am unhappy with the role of city manager
which is a bureaucratic role and not an elected role.
The city manager uses a lot of polemic and media savvy
to issue his threats when he is only a government apointee.
this is not democratic.
Chris

author by Dermot Lacey - Councillorpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 17:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The night charges were introduced in Dublin City for the first time I actually did not vote for them. In fact they were carried because two SF Councillors were conveniently missing that night.

The history of the charges are well known to most people on both sides of this issue and I have defended and will continue to defend the position I took in January 2003. The fact is that by that stage the charges were an integral part of the estimates process and Councillors had a legal obligation to pass the estimates or face abolition. Following abolition there would still have been a charge, probably higher, probably no waiver and probably shortly afterwards privatisation would have followed.

author by onlookerpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 17:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

About half the FF, FG and Lab had left in dribs and drabs throught the interminably long evening. Only the die-hard democrats remained (and the Lord Mayor hadn't much choice).

In Lacey's speech against the motion, he wondered why they should even be voting on it, since it had been voted on before. He must've forgotten to say that the previous vote had been for collection. Is this guy for real, there wasn't even a hint of irony!

author by Villagerpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 17:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Anybody see the puff piece with the picture of Lacey in the Vilage recently. Talking up his toothless postion. He certainly seems to love being pictured in chains.

author by onlooker no morepublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 17:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The article asking questions of anarchists in "recent articles by onlooker" refers to another one - there must be a few of us about. Serves me right for not bin' original.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 17:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Onlooker. Thank God you're not a stenographer. Because I made no such comment. I did question the pointlessness of Councillor Collins tabling a motion that she knew was legally impossible for Councillors to enforce. I called it posturing and so it was.

In relation to the Village article. I did not either chooseor submit the photograph and only knew it was in when I bought the paper.

Inany event I am more interested in the issues. Perhaps you should engage on those onlooker instead.

author by onlookerpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 18:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

my minidisc hadn't started recording two hours early. I suppose we'll have to agree on a difference of recollection.

In the meantime, for the purposes of transparency and accountability, I hope that you will support a motion sometime soon to have each motion/minute/debate put up on the Council website.

Then, all constituents can view the conduct of their electees at their leisure; and there would be no more ambiguities for the record.

They might then, also see the toothless nature and posturing of the council as a whole - with the last word almost always remaining with the city manager.

author by onlooker stillpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 18:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

BTW Dermot, I don't care who you think you are - the ball is far more interesting than the player in this instance. At the very least, you might have been interested in not backing the City Manager's overturning of the vote to collect last time round.

author by anger managerpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 19:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I only caught the end of the protest last nite. Seemed like a good turnout. Although I heard from someone there that there was more early on. Does anyone have any pictures

author by Dermot Lacey - Councillorpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 20:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Onlooker I always have supported transparency and every single Committee I have ever Chaired on the City Council has been open to the Public. The only Council Chair to do this in some cases. I have also pushed through a deal recently were the Chamber will be wired for audio transmission. Any other suggestions warmly welcomed. Yes I agree the power of the Manager should be reduced then I hope Councillors will be able to exercise real authority.

author by onlookerpublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 21:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It's good to hear that the chamber will be wired for sound - but what to do from there?

Free software will record everything on mike (though I suggest there be an off-mike pick-up too).

RTÉ might be interested in doing stuff on estimates, but I think it would be unwise to let them near it. Being a national station, they will only play the juicy bits on Morning Ireland or something, and archive the rest on pay-per-listen, eventually).

AFAIK, the Council just needs to purchase increased server space and badwidth. The cost for this is minimal - www.indymedia.ie does it and last August at least, it was getting 100,000 hits per month (it might be much higher now).

Next step is to put each meeting up online (and committee meeting if you like). All will be archived forever if possible. You could group pages into years of five (e.g., 2004-2009). In there, could be Titles of each meeting (e.g., Council Meeting 2006.2.2). Underneath these headings, each motion/minute would be contained in a spearate low-quality mp3 (for accessibility) of 32kbps.

This latter step of division fo items, would require someone with the stamina to be able to spend several hours editing the stuff.

There are no end of specific issues dealt with by the Council which interest only a few, or one particular locality. These would never get an airing, even on Dublin radio. If they were part of an online Council archive, then the power of the City Manager would become apparent to a greater number, and pressure for reform applied accordingly.

This could also set a precedent for Dáil Committees and even cabinet meetings, perhaps. The sky's the limit.

author by Hydepublication date Tue Feb 07, 2006 21:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Could people on the left stop having illusions in that rotten disgusting 'Labour' party. They voted against this motion. This further shows how rotten they are. Playing the race card recently shows how low they'll go and how they'll lay the boot in when in power. Disgusting!

author by onlookerpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 00:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Turning this into a discussion on Labour isn't helpful. Eric Byrne and perhaps John Gallagher voted for collection. Labels always have their limitations.and I don't intend talking to my naval while I wait for a revolution or a SF/Ind majority.

Online-archiving of the meetings would be an excellent step towards transparency and would hopefully set trends. I'd be wary of any proposed democratic system that didn't embrace such technology.

For now, people like myself wouldn't have to sit through four hours of tedium, just to get to relay what happened on the bin tax issue. I would do other things. People could just listen for themselves and make their own minds up.

author by seedotpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 02:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

One councillor said of the crowd he'd seen earlier; "I asked Joan were they the bin tax or the poster people".

Considering the use of the poster ban to try and prevent the bin tax campaign in Finglas from meeting, perhaps the above councillor, whoever they are should be more wary of giving people so many reasons to stand outside city hall in the cold and dark and shout at them.

When the audio, or video if DCTV or some other group pulls that off, becomes available access and ownership will be important for our democracy. Freely available, archived material will allow a level of engagement with local government that is just not there at present. It is to be hoped that councillor Lacey and others who promote local democracy will not be swayed by money deals and control freakery and will allow people to watch as democracy happens.

Which is as it should be.

Would cllr Lacey provide a ticket for two Indy reporters to council meetings who will record and archive here the meetings? Can we just put in the gear and go for a pint?

author by Interested - DCCpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 09:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I've worked for the City Council for over 30 years and I know Dermot Lacey to be an honourable man. Time and again he has put himself before the electorate and, in the privacy of the polling booth, they have re-elected him to the Council. Why he bothers to try and have a rational debate with some of the contributors here amazes me. Dermot wouldn't know me personally and I'm not a Labour supporter. Mind you, by going against the grain on this topic God only knows what labels will be put on me.

author by c murray - TaraWatchpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:35author email dotliath at eircom dot netauthor address n/aauthor phone 4978026Report this post to the editors

2003, the casting vote by the lord mayor for the estimates
leading to imprisonment and non-collection
Cllr lost the whip.Factual?
My problem is not with the morality of a hobsons choice
but with the bureaucratic role of John Fitzgerald.

author by Dermot Lacey - Councillorpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 13:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Following many comments I am going to try and respond to them all in one go.

Onlooker your lack of understanding of the BIDS initiative is remarkable. In fact it will result in business paying higher contribution to improving the City. In return they will have an input into how that money is spent. To dismiss it in the manner you did is disappointing to say the least.

As an "activist" I thought you might welcome the announcement that those who work for their community should be acknowledged. I certainly do and welcome the Lord Mayors initiative.

Similarly I thought you might welcome the insistence by the City Council that a public park should remain just that Public.

Onlooker in relation to your comments about recording and broadcasting Council meetings etc I would be happy to meet with you and discuss this. I am not particularly knowledgeable about the technology and would be happy to receive your informed advice on this.

Seedot as Joan Collins and Dessie Ellis know well I support their motion on Postering and offered time allocated to a motion I had tabled to assist it get through. Unfortunately it was not reached but i will be supporting their position. Despite the fact that I have been called many ( mostly highly uncomplimentary) things by some of those campaigning on the issue, I support the right to protest and inform people through postering.

I would be happy to talk to people from indymedia re ceovering meetings. Again I am not an expert on the technology etc so would have to meet.

Interested - Thank you. If I meet you in the corridors please say hello. I have huge regard for the vast majority of Council staff who serve this City so well.

C. murray. I have posted on this one so often I am surprised that I have to do it again but here goes.

Yes I used my Casting vote to pass the City Budget and to save the City Council from abolition. In doing so I also saved the Waiver scheme, kept the charges lower than the Manager wanted, probably prevented privatisation and ensured that the other work of the Council could proceed. I have no regrets. People were imprisoned and I deeply regret that they were, because they broke the law not because of the increase in the charges.

Of course I lost the Whip. No secret there. I voted against the Group decision. As Lord Mayor I believed then and believe now that I had a bigger responsibility to the City. I never complained about this but was pleased when about eighteen months later I was welcomed back to the Group. Of course I was more pleased that about a year later the people of my ward in the privacy of the ballot box re-elected me at the top of the Poll.

There is a huge battle required for Local Government. The pity is that those who should be arguing for it are still fighting an old and I believe out dated battle.

author by c murray - TaraWatchpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 14:04author email dotliath at eircom dot netauthor address n/aauthor phone 4978026Report this post to the editors

I do not understand how it comes to a choice
between privatisation, closure of the council
and having to make those decisions.
Would you say that you were forced into a choice like this
and why the hell did no-one see the dilution of democracy coming?
I do not understand the process by which central gov can
foist J Fitzgerald on a council. I realise that it was legislative
but there are not enough political parties going out and telling
people that their democratic rights are being eroded.
There is no activism nor dissemination of information
given to people and I am frankly pissed at that.C

author by Curiouspublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 14:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Non-collection is being implemented on the basis that householders have not paid all or part of their bill. These bills have been found to be illegal by the courts and are subject to a review in the Supreme Court. How can the council refuse to collect bins for people who may have paid since pay per weight came in but have not paid for what has now been deemed illegal charging? How do you square that one Dermot? Strikes me that it ain't over yet Dermot.
On another forum you recently stated the pleasure it gave you to see a Fine Gael councillor and a PD councillor elected before a Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein rep. Do you still stand by those comments?

author by seedotpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 14:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi Dermot

I wasn't criticising you, rather the councillor who made the statement reported by onlooker. I'm aware that Labour have been good on the postering ban - it would have been nice if a statement of support of the Finglas Bin Tax campaign had been issued since, while you may not agree with the campaign, I'm sure you support their right to meet and oppose the use of the postering ban.

I'll catch up with onlooker and we'll follow up on meeting you re. indymedia coverage of city council.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 14:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

C. murray. The fact is that all Councils have a legal obligation to pass a balanced budget. If they don't the Minister has the legal power to abolish it. It would have happened in January 2003 had I not used my casting vote in the way i did. In recent years this happened in Naas, nearly happened in Tipperary and did happen in Dublin in 1969. It is interesting tio note that the then Lord Mayor, Frank Cluskey subsequently and publicly regretted allowing that to happen.

City Managers are appointed under the Local Government legisation passed by the Oireachtas. Unfortunately Councilors have little ( in fact nothing of substance) to do with it.

author by c murray - TaraWatchpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 17:22author email dotliath at eircom dot netauthor address n/aauthor phone 4978026Report this post to the editors

At Oireachtas and council level there is too much
wheeling dealing, why are the lab, greens and other
non-activist parties getting out and giving people info
on foi, local gov acts, data retention , health.
get a lorry and a loud hailer matey.not enough to
work within narrow perameters. people criminalised
by state and the loss of a whip is not enough.

author by socialistpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 17:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Dermot is it true that the city manager stated that "it didn't matter which way the Council voted anyway, and that he would expedite the Supreme Court case. He said that non-payers would be pursued to the last, and "We will hammer them".

Then asked the councillors to approve him a ten grand raise?

I know what I would have told him to do with his request for a raise............
stick it where the sun dont shine.

My problem is that councillors seem to whinge crockadile tears about their power been taken and given to the city manager but when they had the chance to show their displeasure they didn't

author by Dermot Lacey - Councillorpublication date Wed Feb 08, 2006 18:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The City Manager did not either seek or get a raise in salary. In fact such salaries are nothing to do with us. They are set as part of the National Negotiations.

As far as I can recall the Manager said that he would "hammer" those who were illegally dumping.

Yes I campaign on many issues. I suspect I have been doing so since long before some of my critics were born. But as someone who has been elected to represent my constituents in the Council Chamber I have a duty to do. Irrespective of whether posters on Indymedia think so I try to do the job in as honest and diligent way that I can.

Few Local Elected reps have pushed for reform of Local Government as I have and will continue to do so.

author by Slowjoepublication date Thu Feb 09, 2006 01:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

How did emer costelloe vote? This is the councillor who issued legal threats against bin tax campaigners before. Has she missed another vote again?

author by CCCPpublication date Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I thought Dermo would have learned by now to refrain from puffing his plumage from previous roastings he got here.

"Yes I used my Casting vote to pass the City Budget and to save the City Council from abolition.In doing so I also saved the Waiver scheme. I kept the charges lower than the Manager wanted, probably prevented privatisation and ensured that the other work of the Council could proceed. I have no regrets. People were imprisoned and I deeply regret that they were, because they broke the law not because of the increase in the charges."

So Dermot was Saviour of the Council, saviour of Waiver Scheme, kept the TAX "lower than the Manager wanted", and prevented Privatisation. Not a bad nights work and an even better distortion of the truth.

Dermot was saving his own political skin here, as Lord Mayor, to be fair no more than any of his party colleagues would have. Re. Waivers and lower bin tax - The Bin Tax will rise every year until it reachs the extortionate levels already in place everyewhere else it has been successfully steamrollered through and privatisation will inevitably follow, - this is what it has always been about. Anyone who belives otherwise is either naive or dishonest.

Jailing people for breaking the "law" ? -these were specially crafted injunctions designed specifically to intimidate and jail peaceful protestors and stifle dissent not that this abuse of the law and attack on civil liberites ever bothered any centre-right careerist councillors.

author by Dermot Lacey - Councillorpublication date Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

cccp

I have tried to engage honestly on this issue but your posting is simply a lie. I have no wish to engage with people who are so completely dishonest so for me from now Good Bye

author by CCCPpublication date Thu Feb 09, 2006 14:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I have no particular wish to be engaging Dermot Lacey's Orwellian distortion of his critical role in inflicting the bin tax on the people of Dublin either. That I do does not make me a liar - the shameful memory of his role in this whole affair will not go away as easily.

author by Dermot Lacey - Councillorpublication date Thu Feb 09, 2006 15:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

CCCP Your ignorance is extraordinary. I have no need to lie. I have repeatedly said that I support the principle of local charges applied fairly.

I repeat in very simple language because it strikes me that you are probably incapable of understanding anything more complicated.

YOUR POSTING WAS A LIE and That Makes you, on this issue at least, A LIAR.

author by Interested - DCCpublication date Thu Feb 09, 2006 15:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

CCCP, can you please quote the "carefully crafted" injunctions? Five years into the charge and not one job lost in the Cleansing Dept. No one ever jailed for failing to pay a bin charge.
SIPTU and IMPACT negotiating, winning and accepting increased payments for their workers on bin trucks. Not a mention of privatisation anywhere outside this site despite strident cries of impending doom from contributors since early 2001!
Not a whimper from the anti bin charge brigade as to how they would run a city, safeguard services, protect jobs and manage waste!
Armchair generals regurgitating lies, what a sad lot!

author by Onlookerpublication date Thu Feb 09, 2006 15:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

“Onlooker your lack of understanding of the BIDS initiative is remarkable. In fact it will result in business paying higher contribution to improving the City. In return they will have an input into how that money is spent. To dismiss it in the manner you did is disappointing to say the least.”

Dismissive? I was just being succinct. BIDS are designed to make the place tidy, imrpve street furniture and get rid of graffitti. Your emphasis on businesses contributing financially in return for a role in decision-making is spent raises questions of its own. If graffitti artists had more money, would they have more Why not raise rates a bit and let the people decide how the extra revenue is to be spent influence? I for one, would prefer graffitti to advertising hoardings and billboards.

“As an "activist" I thought you might welcome the announcement that those who work for their community should be acknowledged. I certainly do and welcome the Lord Mayors initiative.”

I’ve never called myself an “activist”; indeed I don’t like using the word to describe anyone. People just do stuff in different ways (some more passive than others). I don’t like the patronising “unsung heroes” – I don’t like the notion of heroes of any sort, come to think of it. Those we’ve known influence us the most in everyday actions; these are the real gods.

On the issue of voluntarism, I’m not quite decided. Everyone deserves a fair and (more or less) equal wage, no matter what they do; and sometimes, I think spendthrift capitalists rely on volunteers to do the stuff that isn’t profitable. As Kathleen Lynch says, caring is the antithesis of profit. Very few people can really afford to choose their work.

One councillor made the obnoxious suggestion of having a panel of celebrities to judge the recipients of the “unsung heroes” pins – save us! Even if they themselves volunteered to judge, the concept is stomach-churning. Better to apply political pressure for proper funding of those areas that are so vital. Let the voluntary sector become democratic, accountable and paid where possible. Fair wage is respect.

Having said that, I know people on the dole who do more voluntary work (and wouldn’t take a penny for it), than many civil servants in the “fir-lined mousetrap” (as one civil service union official put it to me).

“Similarly I thought you might welcome the insistence by the City Council that a public park should remain just that Public”.

Did I say otherwise? Yes, it was the only right thing to do given the shambles that went before. I like to know how councillors let this situation happen in the first place, and in whose interests they were acting. Free market zeal is antithetical to the well-being of the majority.

Recording:
“Onlooker in relation to your comments about recording and broadcasting Council meetings etc I would be happy to meet with you and discuss this. I am not particularly knowledgeable about the technology and would be happy to receive your informed advice on this.”

Seedot and I look forward to such a meeting. I understand that there may be a motion on the matter at the next Council meeting, and a detailed plan would be helpful in getting it passed.

I don’t think that indymedia should regularly record Council sessions, since we’ve barely enough (voluntary) resources to cover community/voluntary events.=, let alone state-franchised meetings. I’m not religious, but the phrase about Caesar and the coin is apt here. The state has the resources to implement the democratic franchise nationwide, accountably and systematically; that’s one of the things taxes are for.

I think that a contract should be put to open tender, but within the framework of open, free online archiving. The details myself and seedot can provide, may make the difference between success or failure of such a proposal at Council meeting, and we’re happy to oblige. Seedot will email you soon. I know of at least one councillor also interesed, and 'twould be good for Cllrs. to coalesce on this.

Dublin City Council may provide the lead for councils throughout the world.

author by throwin'rubbishpublication date Thu Feb 09, 2006 19:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Interested DCC, for your info.....Twomey has stated that he intends to halve the bin trucks on the streets.....Several new routes have been imposed on bin men without any extra payment or union intervention....in Dun Laoire , unions are to meet management to discuss cut backs in bin services.
The fact that bin men are already being given extra work or being taken off the trucks (redeployed but not always asked) shows that they are stuck with a bunch of union tossers.
5 years on and my bin is still being collected....never paid a penny and my dear DCC loyal employee, I never will.

author by CCCPpublication date Fri Feb 10, 2006 14:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thought you weren't going to reply/engage Lacey - nothing in my posting was a lie - care to point out exactly what. ?

As for your cretinous alter ego/acolyte "Interested" can you even quote directly from what I said? Read again you fool.

Armchair generals? We are the ones taking on the council, courts and SPECIALLY crafted injunctions to make sure that refuse collection remains a right not a privelige

Bin tax now equals privatisation later -or is Dublin to be treated differently from the rest of the free state because we have your word for it?

author by Interested - DCCpublication date Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

CCCP, nice name by the way. Scroungers of the world unite. What's this about the Free State ? Are you trying to tell us something?

author by Paula geraghtypublication date Tue Feb 14, 2006 19:08author email mspgeraghty at yahoo dot ieauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Copyright of Paula geraghty

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author by Joan Collins - Anti Bin Taxpublication date Mon Feb 20, 2006 17:14author address author phone 0863888151Report this post to the editors

Some facts on the BIn tax/Stealth tax and the Councils
In the Local elections off 1999.many of the Councils nationally were dominated by FF Cllrs. In Dublin City a FF/Lab alliance was the order of the day.
The Bin tax was proposed in the estimates of 1999 for the rear 2000. I don't remember Cllrs knocking on our doors telling us that Bin taxes were going to be intriduced from 2000.
At the Council meeting 2 S/F and at least 1 lab Cllr did not attend the meeting. The 3 Ind then V Jackson, F McGrath and T Gregory looked fo a role call vote, 5 Clls need to stand at the same time, No other Cllr stood with them. It resulted the Bin tax been brought. This was despite Laab position of been opposed to stealth taxes including bin taxes.
That same year a S/F Cllr voted for the Bin taxes in Sligo {I think).
In 2000 and 2001 they were carried again with the usual Lanigans ball syndrome{I stepped in and you stepped out again). The Cllrs still had the power to oppose the bin taxes and propose alternative ways to raise the monies withheld from Government fron the rate support grant.
In 2002 D lacey was Lord mayor. the Council met 4 times and in january 2003 the vote was 20 for 23 against. D lacey used his casting vote as Lord mayor to carry the Estimates, This was a crucial year as in June 2003 the FF/PD Government railroaded the legislation on waste management that gave executive function to the City managers on anything to do with waste management, bin tax, incineration, recycling etc.
2002 was crucial if Labour had ran a campaign engaging the people of the City with the Anti Bin tax Campaign, to oppose Estimates nationally that included bin taxes and the Governments intentiion to tkae waste management out of the elected Councils control, we may be in a different situation than we are now. If Councils had of been aboloished, which they would not have been, as alternatives like demanding the rate support grant be increased or alternatives ways to raise money ie that REPAK pay the majority of the cost indicated for the bin tax seen as its not the householder who produces waste but Companies, they may have gained a lot more solid support.
It was very significant that the Gov got the legislation through in 2003 a year before the 2004 Local elections,
At the 2004 Estimates the same disgraceful tactics went on when it came to the vote on the Estimates, again the 3 InD's stood for a recorded vote and agis not one othre Cllr sttod to support that. Again Cllrs were able to hide behind no recorded vote to enable them to railroad the Estimates in including the Bin Tax.
Now the Council is dominated by the Rainbow alliance of Lab/FG/ Green and PD.
Some facts.
The majority of Councils were the bin tax has been established have been privatised.
There is no national Environmental plan. Local Government were best placed to play a major role in this but again private Companies dominate the recycling business. This Government have played a disgarceful role in this.
The powers that be say that there is no
money in waste!!!!!!. Oxigen, Thorntons and all the other private waste Companies are obviously not in the business to make no money.
Waivers have been withdrawn in private collection areas.
Even if there was full compliance with the Bin tax in Dublin City the amount of money raised will not cover the cost that the City management say is needed. €450 per household is needed, according to an Ind report last year. The more housholds recycle the less money the Council would receive so either the flat charge will increase or the management would argue that it is no longer viable to collect waste. Privatisation.
The Campaign is absolutly justified opposing this double tax.
Labour still has an opportunity to play a role in defeating this tax . I won't hold my breath.

author by Dermot Lacey - Councillorpublication date Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

And I won't hol'd my breath waiting for Joan Collins to put forward a single practical or legally binding proposal to deal with any of the many issues facing Dublin City. Having attitudes is no substitutefor real policies.

author by Da Snapperpublication date Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The amount of money in one's pocket you will find is a burning issue in most households in Dublin and pretty evident when you see how many people are on waviers in the city of Dublin. You might be oblivious to these things as you go around clapping Fine Gaelers and PDers on the back for making Pembroke the only ward on the shores that doesn't have a FF or SF rep nor a socialist for that matter.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Tue Feb 21, 2006 14:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

da Snapper you are right. It is imperative that anyone who claims to be on the left should protect the income of low paid or low earners. That is why I am glad that I voted to protect the waiver and to ensure that the charges would be less than they would have been if a Commissioner had imposed them. Of course I respect the law laid down by the democratically elected Parliament - maybe you don't.

As for clapping any Councillor on the back. I have noted in the past that Pembroke did not elect a FF or SF Councillor. That is simply a fact. I am particularly pleased that the people of my home area re-elected me twice to the City Council and am happy to work with whoever else the people vote for.

author by observerpublication date Tue Feb 21, 2006 14:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Anyone who can has applied for a waiver. Of those who cannot, most have paid. Of those who have not paid (including myself) we are hoping against hope that we won't have to but worst case scenario is that we will end up stumping out for it.

One thing is for sure, few of us see this as the harbinger of social revolution.

author by Da Snapperpublication date Tue Feb 21, 2006 15:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Isn't it amazing how after nearly every one of your contributions some ol' wag pops up and makes a comment in ways supportive of you. Be it Dublin Exile, Council Employee or in this case a confused observer.
As you will know Dermot and just for observer's benefit the figures are roughly a third on a waiver, a third paid or part paid and a third have paid nothing. So hardly true that most of the people have paid up in full as a lot who are down as having paid are only part paid. And we all know how those figures pan out in working class estates throughout Dublin.
As for observers comment 'One thing is for sure, few of us see this as the harbinger of social revolution.' True indeed but then neither is saluting your local PD or Fine Gael councillor on politics.ie
But then Dermot's not really for social revolution it wouldn't go down too well in Pembroke, you see.

author by Onlookerpublication date Tue Feb 21, 2006 23:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No plaudits are due for voting for the noblesse oblige of granting the poorest a waiver.

If the bin tax isn't a success now, imagine if there'd been no waiver! That would've been more conducive to social revolution.

You should've abstained or voted against on principle that the charge is a regressive form of taxation.

Have you seen the rats on Sandymount Strand lately? There's a harbinger for ya! Even Pembrokians might get discontented with the rodents and the sewage plant stench.

author by Joan Collins - Anti Bin Tax campaignpublication date Wed Feb 22, 2006 17:06author address author phone 086-3888151Report this post to the editors

One of the many arguments put forward by Cllrs at the estimates meeting for 2006 was one that echoed the City managers comments that Dublin City Council "has an extremely generous waiver system" In total 50,000 housholds have been granted waivers in the Dublin City area. In the reply to the questions I put to the city Manager in November out of a total of approx 140.000 households in the bin tax net nearly 50,000 waivers had been issued. The criteria for a waiver is that there is no taxable income received in the household so all income must be declared on apllication. My immediate reaction to this figure is the digracefully high number of households who live in poverty in this city. A clear indication of the inequalty in this City and bears out the figures that we live in one of the most unequal societies in the world. But no, we have a very generous waiver scheme so that means there is no standard approach taken to issueing waivers and that waivers are issued on different basis than what it says in the Councils application forms.
Something similar happened in South County Dublin Council, thousands of waivers were issued by the Council in 2005 when the Council were implementing non collection for non payment. Nearly every 2nd or 3rd houshold had a waiver. A special sticker was issued for waivers to be stuck on bins. It seemed that SDCC had a very generous waiver scheme!!!!
Two weeks ago 5,000 housholds in SDCC received notices from that Council that the houshold may not have filled their waiver application form out properly and were they aware that the only basis for a waiver was that there was no taxable income in their household and that all income must be declared. A woman contacted me who had received this letter and called up to the Council offices. She said the offices were full of Old Age Pensioners in a state of anxiety and fear wondering what was going on. So much for SDCC's generous waiver scheme. It was generous when non collection was taking place, divide and conquer, and now they are clamping down.
DCC have called on the Government to supplement the Council for the waivers issued. This has been echoed by Labour Party TD's. The fact of the matter is OAP's have paid for their services through the PAYE and VAT sytem for years so have thousands of present PAYE workers. The Government are €1.8 billion over in Tax Revenues, it could be a lot more if the wealthy paid their share of Tax. Are the Labour party now supporting unfair, unequal and regressive taxation and privatisation of our services? The majority of Councils in the Country have privatised our waste collection and there are no waivers. Where was the Labour Party on these Councils protecting OAP's and low income earners??
If Labour had of considered alliances on Councils after the 2004 local elections with like minded people willing to campaign and work out ways to tackle this issue and other crucial issues rather than jumping into alliances with FG.PD and Green alliances, right wing party's who support privatisation and regressive taxation. Again I won't hold my breath.

author by Dominic Haugh - Socialist Party/CWIpublication date Wed Feb 22, 2006 18:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Councils around the country have used the wavier scheme to undermine anti-bin tax campaigns. By using the wavier scheme they hope to remove a significant base of support from the campaign. The wavier scheme in Dublin will go the way of similar schemes around the country. When the anti-bin tax campaigns run out of steam the council will reduce the % of the charge that can be claimed against the wavier. In Limerick it was reduced to 70%, then 50%, then 30% until it was finally eliminated altogether.

author by DLR residentpublication date Wed Feb 22, 2006 19:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

From reading Joan's posting I'm not sure what her position on Labour is. Is she criticising them to expose them as not being left-wing? Or does she think that they're a left-wing party that should be in an alliance on the council with other 'like-minded' cllrs? Would she do a deal with Labour in the city council to elect a Labour Mayor? Or if elected to Dail would she back a Labour government? Clarification please.

author by Joan Collins - Crumlin/Kimmage Anti Bin tax campaignpublication date Sat Feb 25, 2006 20:46author address author phone 086-3888151Report this post to the editors

Apologies for not replying sooner to DLR Res?
My politics are very clear. I am a Socialist, In th Crumlin/Kimmage area we have set up a group called the Community and Workers Action Group. Socialists, trade unionists, community activists, anti bin tax activists, any one who wants to be active on the issues on the ground are welcome to join up. We have been involved in initiating the Dn12 Developement Action Group, to faciliate the Community in organising against rampant developement in our Community and to ensure that facilities lor our young people, our elderly, etc will be campaigned for and got. It is made up of Res Ass/ Comm groups and individuals. The Dn12 DAG is now an independant group with structures etc. Public meetings willl be organised to let people in the Community know what is going on. We have also been involved in initiating the Joanne Delaney Support Group. Many of our members are Anti Bin Tax activists. We also supported the Rossport Five by assisting Shell pickets in our area. The CWAG is affiiated to the Campaign for an Ind Left, CIL. One of the CIL's main points is NO COALITION with parties of the right. I am of the opinion that while there may be many people in the Labour Party who have joined believe the Labour Party is a left wing Party the policies and actions of the Leaders including Cllrs are not. To go into alliances and coalitions on Councils and electorally with FG/PD's etc is a betrayal of the people the Labour party claim to represent.
And yes if Labour Party Cllrs vote in anti working class policies under the auspices that they were protecting the waiver scheme,preventing privatisation and keeping the charges lower, as in 2003, when the Councils had the power to put alternatives and vote out estimates with the Bin Tax included, the party should be exposed.
If you wish to get involved just contact me on the mobile.

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