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High Drama at the McBrearty/Anti-Corruption meeting in Dublin.
 national |
crime and justice |
news report
 Sunday November 20, 2005 06:47 by Brian
A short account of the meeting on Garda, legal and state corruption chaired by Frank McBrearty at the Mansion House Dublin 20 Nov 2005.
(My apologies in advance for any errors and omissions.) Frank McBrearty:
Condemned "crime correspondents who try to brainwash people every week" with their hyping of gangland and other crimes. As he sees it they are just basically working for the garda press office. He also outlined that most of the posters they tried to put up to advertise the meeting were immediately pulled down by Dublin corporation. As well as this in the regular media there was an organised campaign to mislead people into thinking the meeting had been cancelled. He was pleased at the attendance therefore in the light of this campaign.
Eamonn McCann:
He started by relating a story about his long time friend Nicky Kelly. He said that as luck would have it during the 80s he was for a time political correspondent of the Sunday World and when invited to dinner with the then tanaiste Michael O'Leary he decided to challenge him on the question of Nicky Kelly. The only reply he got though was that the garda commissioner had assured him that Kelly was guilty and after all, as O'Leary explained, you "don't question the word of a guard". But as Eamonn sees it goes deeper than that. In practise "politicians are frightened of the guards because the guards know where the bodies are buried." As regards the anti-corruption campaign, he feels that political financial and garda corruption are all mixed up together and its no good tackling it via individual cases. For example if you look to tribunals or public inquiries to solve your problem don't forget that they are run by the same judiciary that many are accusing of being corrupt. He wants a much broader political campaign and in fact he called for a slate of candidates that could be endorsed by this movement in time for the next election. The candidates could still be members of other parties, just affiliated to this movement in some way.
Sean Crowe TD:
He explained that he comes from the real world and growing up in Dublin he knew the garda stations where you'd be routinely beaten up by the gardai even over small things like not having a lamp on a bicycle. But at the time "society said this didn't happen." Allegations were just dismissed claiming that "this was just the words of subversives or criminals. Many of the people who were beaten up in the garda stations ended up in institutions" and now we know what happened to them there. "If you want to see justice don't go to any of the courts in this country." He stated that when people take a case against the gardai it is routine for false charges to be served on the person making the claim and then they will offer to drop that charge if the claimant drops their (real) charge against the gardai. He himself was assaulted in a garda station by the heavy gang for putting up anti-EU posters. He personally experienced the physical and mental abuse that people suffer in garda stations. He stated that it was "not a handful of corrupt gardai" that was the problem rather it was "down to a police force with unimpeded power" but now there was "a few cracks in the wall" of this corruption in the justice system.
Frank Connolly:
He is struck when he attends these meetings at the "vast number of people deeply hurt by agencies of the state....and the avalanche of allegations against the judiciary , the gardai etc.." His group, the Centre for Public Inquiry, is actually inundated with so many cases that he now realises that they simply don't have the resources to deal with them. Instead of talking further about the "so called Irish justice system" he outlined his history of digging up corruption in the planning system and highlighted the story of Tom Gilmartin. Gilmartin has alledged that his life was ruined by a combination of some powerful Irish businessmen, Ireland's largest bank, the UK inland revenue and, Connolly pointed out, there are even allegations about two taoisigh and "a [sic!] serving taoiseach".
Aisling Reidy Irish Council for Civil Liberties:
She has highlighted the fact that over the course of the life of the ICCL the gardai and state agencies are actually getting more and more draconian powers despite all the evidence that has emerged since the Sallins case of the gardai abusing those powers. This she feels is because the majority of people still need to be persuaded that this abuse of power is the main problem. They in fact are heavily influenced by the media highlighting of things like gang warfare, which is what happens when the "government constantly plays the politics of fear". So to address this she feels its very important for people to build as broad an alliance as possible.
Osgur Breatnach:
He "bears witness to torture....conspiracy to kidnap"...that was conducted in this state. He traces the origin of the heavy gang to Ned Garvey who was later discovered to have worked for British Intelligence. Garvey apparently recruited that group as a "systematic torture system". He was obviously arrested, on false charges, as part of a roundup of 40 people taken into custody as part of the Sallins Train robbery saga. Over 10 of those arrested were subsequently tortured and Osgur described the screams that he heard in the Bridewell before his turn came to be tortured. During his ordeal he contemplated hanging himself and eventually was driven to sign a false statement. This was done during the FG-Lab coalition and when they were succeeded by the incoming FF govt. Garvey was sacked but all the rest of the gardai involved were promoted by that govt. In any case the subsequent legal proceedings went on for a long time during which he and his family were constantly harassed and received intimidating phonecalls etc. He also found himself black listed so he couldn't get normal employment. The late Mary Reid was involved in trying to highlight his case incidentally and he would like to join with her family in pressing for a proper investigation into her death in Donegal. Eventually he had to settle out of court under threat of financial ruin. So the outcome in fact was that tax payers money was used to just cover it up, he never really got justice, the gardai were never held accountable for what they did to him and so he feels that history is repeating itself with all these new cases. It was inevitable it would only get worse if no justice was done then and "that is the relevance of the past to the present"."Deaths in custody have increased" and the situation has only continued to deteriorate. He feels "the whole barrel" of the gardai is rotten not just a few bad apples. On an ominous note he found out in the course of the documentary he narrated (on TG4) that the Department of Justice have "active files on 1 in 5 adult males" in this state.
Nicky Kelly (of the famous miscarriage of justice etc):
He feels there are "thousands and thousands of people.. citizens of this country..who get no redress [only a] stone wall" when they seek justice. He has been "inundated by ordinary people" looking for his help in seeking justice. Unfortunately he feels that most of the politicians are looking for an easy life and "don't really care" about these cases. In fact he is very pessimistic about most of these cases ever getting justice in Ireland. He thinks they could only hope to get "justice under their [dept and minister of justice etc] conditions" which is not real justice at all. He doesn't think contacting councillors or TD's does much good. In fact, in his experience, you will "never ever get your issue dealt with" you will only find yourself in a "correspondence course". In a clearly very sincere and blunt speech he simply said "look at the nature of our country and people at the moment". Most of the politicians in Leinster House just perceive the people at this meeting as "cranks" and clearly it is going to be a long struggle if people hope to get justice.
Joe Higgins TD:
Like so many indigent workers he finds himself on a payment plan as he tries to pay back his debts to Fingal Co. Council. He owes them 15,000 pounds for 5 hours work put in by a barrister employed by the council when they successfully took legal action against him over the bin tax protests for which he was jailed. He made the point that there are large numbers of people out there that are completely unable to pay sums like that and that this makes constitutional rights a bit of a dead letter for a large swathe of the Irish population. There is also in practice no way that a TD can hold judges to account, since any criticism at all of judges are ruled out of order by the Cahoirleach in the Dail.
Dan Boyle TD:
He talked about the difficulties of holding the system to account and he offered his services to help out a new independent movement that would challenge the corruption.
A former inter county ladies GAA player.:
She was sexually assaulted by a garda who was working as a coach of the local Ladies GAA club. She made a complaint to the Garda Complaints Board but that got nowhere until another person made a similar complaint against the same person. This time the garda in question was tipped off and intimidated the potential witnesses and the victim. Now she finds herself constantly harassed, intimidated and ostracised in her local community while the garda has risen in the ranks of the GAA. It is, she feels, a complete and blatant coverup by gardai and the Ladies GAA.
Phillip Flood:
He was beaten unconscious by the gardai and it was his efforts to get justice over that which has lead to him being harassed by them."Taken into custody several times but never found guilty of anything." Nobody would help...solicitors ..politicians...even doctors and unfortunately he has been left mentally and physically damaged. As far as he is concerned 90% of the gardai and politicians are "all evil".
Eugene Bradley from Armagh:
He has been living a life these last few years like a "James Bond movie". It has arisen from the actions of a corrupt solicitor who seems to be able to marshal the forces of the PSNI against him. He gave just one example of the way in which his phone is constantly cut off. As regards the anti-corruption campaign his message was "unite unite" and don't fall out with one another whatever happens. Meanwhile "he is working 24/7 to stay alive." He wished to point out to everybody at the meeting that he is clearly in good health (for the obvious reason that if he should not be alive in the near future that people would be skeptical of the explanation given).
John Clery:
Speaking on behalf of a relative who was raped. His nephew and this relative get nothing but a litany of obscene verbal abuse from the gardai in Kilkenny when they try to get it investigated.
Kathleen Twomey:
The mother of 8 children (and shows it in her unflappability and determination!). She has been 13 years trying to get justice over a property dispute in Mallow. She is a professional florist and with her husband purchased a property in Mallow for, I think , 117,000 pounds in c.1990. She purchased the property with the help of a family solicitor. What she didn't realise was that this solicitor had been secretary of the company that owned the property before her. In any case various problems started to arise two years into paying off the loan they took out to purchase the property. The upshot is that she was deprived of the property for non payment of the loan despite the fact that at the time that happened the property was worth many times what was outstanding on the loan. This story descended into a long argument between a pressed-for-time Frank McBrearty and-a-determined-to-have-her-say Mrs Twomey.
On behalf of the late John Maloney junior.:
A friend of this person's family outlined his case. He had been arrested as part of a drugs search and taken to Rathfarnham garda station, I believe. No drugs were found but he was reported to have been held on an existing warrant over car insurance. He was found in a coma outside but near the garda station the next day and died 13 days later in hospital. The State pathologist stated that it was a drugs overdose but the hospital test done on him showed only minute traces of cocaine. The family feel that the statements given by the gardai to the inquest are very "choreographed" but they have run out of options in trying to get justice because don't have enough money to take any legal action. Meanwhile they now face "cruel vicious and organised harassment" from the gardai in Crumlin. A relative had an arm broken over this and their house is raided regularly including twice this week as part of the so called crack down on gangs. Since the family have no hope of getting justice in the Irish courts, particularly because of the cost, this friend made the point that maybe the TD's on the panel might like to conduct some kind of inquiry into it so that somehow the family can get their case heard.
Larry Wheelock (brother of Terence):
He outlined how the cell where his brother was alleged to have committed 'suicide' was renovated immediately after the incident effectively ruining it as a potential crime scene from the point of view of gathering evidence. He also stated that custody records have been doctored. Meanwhile (yet again) this family are also facing intimidation by the gardai.
Joe Mooney (on behalf of the Mulhall family of Dublin city):
Jimmy and the rest of this family were prominent anti-drugs campaigners and for this reason they have faced 10 years of constant harassment from the gardai. They were constantly stopped, strip searched etc (to look for drugs on a family that was campaigning against them). Jimmy was beaten up in garda stations ("unrecognisable when he came out") and incredibly his 10 year old son Wayne was stopped and searched. Wayne has now had non stop harassment as well since this time, for example he was beaten up at one point by the gardai repetitively banging a car door against him. The family are at their wits end. All the local politicians know all about this harassment but still it doesn't stop and this family know of this kind of thing happening to other families all over the city.
Helen:
Representing her husband who has been wrongfully imprisoned for 5 years now. (I think this is from Kilkenny.)
Dan McCaffrey from Omagh:
Involves fraud , blackmail and extortion in the Republic from 1981. Couldn't even get a solicitor to take his case despite huge efforts to get one. Amazingly, and tellingly, the only politician who has tried to help this proud Irish Republican is one Dr.Ian Paisley ! He was serious and will be relaying the content of the meeting back to the Dr and his son.
Padraig O'Reilly the psychiatric nurse from Mayo.:
(A sentence has been removed here at the request of the author. It was in reference to a Coronors court. This statement was not made by the person at the meeting to the whole audience using the microphone. In fact the author would like to apologise for the impression that it was and to the Coronors court if this is in fact an inaccurate reference. Nocorrespondence has been received by him or by indymedia in reference to this from the court. -AN EDITOR)
He has been trying for many years to highlight what was done to a psychiatric patient who died while in garda custody. He elaborated on the sustained campaign of slander waged against him since he started making these complaints. Posters were put up, forged documents on garda notepaper were distributed in the locality in a slander campaign very similar to that which hit the McBreartys and involved the usual Special Branch Detectives. Because of this campaign and black listing he, and his family, has been 13 years without a steady wage which as you appreciate must make it very difficult to stay the legal course that is unfolding.
Peter Preston from Dublin:
He explained that it was his idea to invite Joe Costello TD to the meeting and the reason he wanted to do this was to challenge him face to face with certain allegations.... At which point he was cut off by Frank McBrearty who explained that Joe Costello was a friend of his who had always helped him and his family and he would not tolerate allegations like that being aired at the meeting. After much argument Peter resumed his story on the basis that he would relate the facts about his daughter only. So he stated that his daughter had been assaulted with a broken glass in a drinking club and he had established proof of a conspiracy to cover it up involving gardai and judges and for which he had even been on hunger strike outside the dail. At which point he outlined his allegations against Costello. Basically he said that he had given important documents (transcripts of a court case) on his case to Costello and when he got them back some were missing and some changed....whereupon...
Joe Costello TD:
....the Labour spokesman on Justice took the microphone in order to respond to these allegations. He said that he had tried to help Mr Preston with the case involving his daughter and as part of that he gave the documents to two lawyers in turn to look over and see was there any legal avenue that Mr.Preston could go down to get justice. One of these lawyers is a legal adviser to the Labour party. While the second lawyer had the documents Mr.Preston had told him that he wasn't interested in pursuing it with that lawyer and that he just wanted his documents back. At that he got the documents back from this lawyer and gave them to Mr.Preston in, as far as he is concerned, as complete a manner as he received them. Joe had spoken earlier in praise of the meeting and had also added the information that there is some hold up in the appointment of the three man gardai ombudsman commission because apparently there is a problem with one of them not related to any scandal or anything. (Presumably one of the candidates doesn't want the job?).
Thomas McManus a native of Co.Leitrim:
He launched into what seemed like a very involved philosophical discourse which threatened to stretch into a detailed critique of the celtic race...At which point some in the crowd began to debate the merits of listening to all this as the clock ticked on relentlessly and ruinously for those other victims who were trying to get in. I regret to say that it may have even been felt in some quarters that this particular clock conundrum was not unrelated to the reason why he was speaking. So the upshot was that McBrearty was bawling 'time' and much of the rest of the crowd were demanding the microphone while Thomas manfully soldiered on.... getting as far as the Vikings ....before eventually some not overly patient Dub laid a hand on his jacket ...the mic was recovered and the meeting rumbled on.
Eileen:
Her son was murdered by a police informant who had 20 plus warrants out for his arrest but still met with his garda handler on the day of the murder without being arrested. The informant in fact advised that garda on that date that there was going to be a killing but no effort was made to stop it. This happened to her son as he coming back from his fathers funeral. She has not got one positive answer back from any of the political parties.
Jim Cairns from Antrim later of Kilkenny:
He spoke after Jim Gunney and pointed out that he might have information that would assist him in his case. Jim has written and campaigned on the question of gardai (and politicians) being involved in the missing persons cases in the Midlands and he must have been very interested in what Mr Gunney was saying. He stated simply that there is a group in Ireland abducting people and that the guards are covering this up.
( http://www.missingpersons-ireland.freepress-freespeech.com/newbook.htm )
Jim Gunney (spelt as pronounced):
Late in the meeting the audience was transfixed by the following story. Jim, and his neighbours, made a citizens arrest of a man that was attempting to abduct his daughter. While they held him before his transfer to Ashbourne (Co. Meath ) garda station this man told them that he was a very powerful person and that they didn't realise the full implications of what they were trying to do. It also transpired that he knew all about Jim and the fact that he had custody of his daughter after a family case. When they got to the garda station they found out that this man was in fact 'a senior garda' who was in some sense in charge of some of the investigations into the missing person cases in the midlands. He described then that after this incident all hell broke loose in terms of his relationship to the gardai. Both he and his neighbour have been subjected to assaults (including a broken leg) and threats etc from the gardai. This culminated in an incident where he received a phonecall from this neighbour who is also being harassed, asking him to meet him because the caller said that he had located the accomplices of the 'senior garda' in the abduction attempt. He was on his way out to the meeting when it dawned on him that his caller had looked for directions that his neighbour would have known already. But the caller ID on his phone had shown it originated from this neighbour. Nonetheless he decided to ring the father of this person and it then transpired that this neighbour had been arrested and the chip from his phone had been taken which accounts for the correct caller ID on the hoax call he had received. He believes this was an attempt to kill him.
As you can appreciate there was considerable shock felt at the meeting as the audience absorbed this and the other cases.
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Comments (22 of 22)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Looks like Frank will need to get a trailer for the band wagon, Joe Costello and Eamon McCann can sell their cars as they are pemanently on the backs of others peoples bandwagons, How is it that the word of every speaker is taken as gospel, there are people who spoke such as Sean Crowe who were members of the IRA - if the group want to have credibility they should move on without these. There are also alot of nut cases who come to these sort of meetings and crave attention, in amoungst these there are a few genuine cases, maybe the low turnout was because genuine decent people dont want to be assocaited with the likes of Sean Crowe and the other band wagon regulars like Joe Costello, who ironically might lose his seat to Mary Lou in the next eletion.
"maybe the low turnout was because".
How many were there?
Though I would have liked to attend yesterday's meeting, I could not do so because of the arrest warrant mentioned below in a letter dated November 7th 2005 to Minister for Justice Michael McDowell TD.
The extract below was written by a senior social worker in Omagh, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland (Mr Gerard Madden).
"Crucial however to this, is the matter of the extant warrant for his arrest and in particular the issue of securing adequate time for his defence. His efforts to secure proper legal representation have been thwarted at every turn and Mr Finnerty is firmly of the belief that this situation is a serious breach of his rights under Article 6 (3) (1.b.c.) of the European Convention of Human Rights."
The full text of Mr Madden's recent letter to Minister McDowell, which includes a "To Whom It May Concern" attachment from Omagh GP Dr Michael McCavert, can be viewed at:
http://www.constitutionofireland.com/GerardMadden7November2005/Letter.htm
There were only 200 people at the meeting and considering the list of speakers, just as well. McBrearty thinks he knows it all, Connolly is on a great earner and the likes of McCann are political pimps. Why were the ordinary people harassed for time and more of them not allowed speak ?
I cannot see the point of this meeting as it was only a platform for ego's. on another point, what happened to Mary Lou? Did the party tell her to stay away?
The tales of injustice relayed by decent people should be heard. the wider public need to hear these stories. what they don't need is the same old faces spouting the same old shite.
Sure Frank McBrearty doesn't know quite where to go with the Anti Corruption campaign and sure there are a lot of nutters who insist on going on at length about their own particular experience of injustice but at least these people are TRYING to expose the levels of corruption especially among Gardai. I think fair play to them. I don't know what you mean by calling Eamonn McCann "a political pimp" but he was brilliant on last week's Q&A about both the racism against travellers in the Nally case and about the Church. We could do with more like him.
observation of meeting
1 to many people on the platform
Eammon has some explanation for how he treats other political activists.
2. Frank kept on commenting after people spoke from floor
3.I have no interest of Sean Crowes past life.
thanks be to jaysaus Mary Lou wasn't speaking
3 referinng to head cases
it was I who confronted a person from the floor because of her defence of religious institutions where child abuse took place.
also her statements about survivors of child abuse to the media, towards people who have to face the government body institution redress board.
which I did apologise to her for language which I used.
4.I also said that there were politicans on the platform whom I had sent information.
As I am a survivor of child abuse who have ignored me and many others.
5. Robocop who was involved in attacking innocent people in Dame street was in attendance at the meeting
6. I have no problem with a person who physically tried to stop a asshole with racist remarks from speaking
Frank Mc Brearty about setting upa charity
its not charity people want it is justice
the campaign should be kept on the ground. where many working class people coming forward who don't have the same political clout as those on the platform.
we need tokeepit on politicalagenda rather on personal agenda of injustices
Jim Cairns is a born again christian nutter. About 8 years ago I was standing in the chipper in Kilkenny when he came up to me and demanded to know what the patch on my coat was all about...
"It's an anarchy sign" I said.
"Do you know what that means" he said
"Yeah it means no government, no leaders"
"Oh you think you'd be fine without any leaders and no government do you?"
"Ah Yeah" I said
"That's not what it means" says Jim "It's a satanic symbol, I'll tell you what's going to happen when you get to heaven" he says fuming at this stage...
"What?!" I asked him
"When you get up to heaven God's going to give you an unmerciful BELT!"
The whole time he was lecturing me I was kinda nodding at two young lads standing in the queue behind him, in a 'this bloke's mental' kind of way... Big mistake, the unfortunate kids were his sons!
Then later I saw Mr Cairns in the Sunday World expounding on some of his theories about Satanic activity in the South East, I think it's on his website... I knew I recognised him from somewhere!
One of the things he mentioned was satanic symbols around the back of Mary's Hall, where we and many other bored teenagers did our time hanging around the back of in our youth.. Yeah maybe there were a few Slayer logos, pentagrams and anarchy signs scratched into the wall... Hardly evidence of Satanism!
Cairns is someone with views that would hardly lend credibility to the 9/11 Truth brigade, let alone such a serious issue as anti-corruption or alleged Gardai misdeeds.
Sadly, McBrearty is seriously misguided if he thinks that consorting with the likes of nuts, Sinn Fein /IRA, wizzened commie hasbeen beetroots like McCann, and unsubstantiated allegations about conspiracy in the Ladies GAA.
Frank - a fool and his money are easily parted. Buy a house in Spain and shut the fuck up. Check out the brilliant insight of one of your supporters at the URL:
Many thanks for the report Brian. Your hand must have been sore after all that note taking!!
That is a pity there were not more people. But nevertheless 200 people sounds like a fair old crowd.
Valiant efforts by those who tried to poster for the event. A fair few of them it seems managed to stay up this time but still the Council are making it impossible to advertise properly for events such as this. There is a big article on the Times today about "Can the Government stimulate Active Citizenship" and efforts it is making thereof. Surely this is an obligatory step it must take if it "really" wants active citizenship? - i.e. to allow posters back up. We must all take up the cause of making this happen.
I heard Frank and Eamon (amongst other) speak not so long ago in Dublin. I thought both were brilliant. At the very least there must surely be a totally independent Ombudsman.
200 people is a shite attendance in the centre of Dublin for a meeting about bent coppers. I don’t believe the bollox about the council taking down the posters been the cause of the piss poor turnout. There were still posters up in Summerhill this morning.
I think poor organisation and bad planning are to blame. Where were the other posters? I work in Tallaght and there was no posters. I’m doing a course in Finglas every Thursday night and I didn’t see any posters.
The first thing I seen on Saturday was a stall with people selling the socialist paper, this would really tempt non party political people to get involved wouldn’t it?
Too many politicians on the platform talking bollox, looking for publicity. Frank interrupting people while they were talking. A free for all from speakers on the floor because there was no structure.
The sad thing about all this is that there was heartbreaking stories about children abused and murdered by the guards, people’s land stolen, people’s health damaged……..
If Frank doesn’t cop on that he’s been used by the socialists and if he doesn’t realise that the politicians he’s giving free publicity to are also to blame for the current state of the guards, then this campaign is going nowhere.
That also wish that Frank would "shut the fuck up and buy a house in Spain and stop being used by the socialists". Yeah, I'll bet they wish that! 200 is a decent turn out for a meeting of an organisation that's just getting off the ground.
It's true that anyone interested in this would be well advised to think about setting up a structure that makes it impervious to political manipulation by anyone though.
Fair point Tony about no posters being up around Tallaght, Finglas and other parts of the city (assuming they were not taken down by the police as they normally are). Maybe too much focus put on postering the centre of the city where they are more easily taken down.
More people needed in advertising/promoting events such as this.
And more widespread postering as you say.
But the Council by-law has to be repealed for all this to really happen.
Excellent report, Brian.
Can you email me at the above address or phone me at
087 2861238
Thanks. A magazine asked me to try to contact the author as they want to reprint some of your report.
William
Wish more of us had known about this meeting. Who organised it or didn't organise it by the tone of the other postings. Will there by any more?
Loads of genuine cases out there but they need to be heard.
Don't trust the politicians or the student lefties to do anything real about these issues.
Just a quick fógra: Jim Gunney is spelt Jim Gunning and also the broken bones etc relate to what is now 2 serious incidents (one post the meeting) where in the first incidence the brake cables in his racing bike were cut and and caused a near fatal accident and in the other just recently he was crushed against the curb by what is believed to be a Special Branch car and also suffered injuries as a result. Both incidents being part of this garda special branch harassement. (He can prove that the harrassers are garda special branch, some of them anyway.) He was incidentally , long before the abduction attempt, also beaten up very badly by the gardai in Carlow.
BTW this is a very serious case, Jim has also revealed that he has aIready been interviewed by Orla Barry on Newstalk and in the Sunday World etc.
I wish to state that information in the above comment on Jim Gunning was given to me by him not long ago and its not that I myself have read any of the articles he mentions or listened to the radio interviews stated. Just to be clear on that since I like to think that I usually provide proper source notes for the information I write about.
Bill in a comment above has pointed out that not every speaker should be treated as gospel. In fact of course some scepticism would not go amiss on maybe one speaker in particular . In fact giving my opinion , as opposed to relaying the content of the meeting, I have to say that I don't believe a word of what Jim Gunnney or Gunning has had to say.
(To clarify at the meeting I gave him my number because I said I would help him in reply to his claim to me that he was computer illiterate and wouldn't be able to type up his story and he contacted me after that.)
I am not saying I was free of error here because I wouldn't have put in the above comment if I had totally disbelieved him.
It was only as I thought about his story a bit more that I believe now it was frankly a set up. A very elaborate one BTW. I have met his 'daughter' and one of his friends in person and spoke to another friend of his on the phone. They all promised to sign and witness a statement on these events and that they would publish that before I would write anything. I even have a photocopy of the supposed Sunday World article.
In retrospect its obviously inevitable that the powers that be might try something like that
in order to discredit meetings that allow ordinary people to speak and also media outlets like this one that err on the side of free speech. Can I just say that its important they dont succeed in that? Its important that ordinary people get to speak , without any vetting process, and we just have rely on the ordinary publics ability to seperate fact from fiction.
I don't think that process would rule out the vast majority of those speakers btw. Note for example how much the panel agreed with most of the speakers about the extent and nature of the problems that exist? And people like Nicky Kelly are very credible people it seems to me.
You know that meeting had everything ...mics seized... serious standup rows between the chair and some on the floor........and even now a setup . Methinks those that missed it are regretting it!
God that first comment of mine makes terrible reading!!! The truth is that I came from meeting him with the documents etc after meeting all these people etc and I did believe it. I thought I would just quickly correct the spelling of his name that he was insistent about and before I really looked over the stuff and then I would get to bed as it was late intending to leave any serious article till later if at all pending that signed statement I mentioned. Then luckily the truth dawned!!
Here is a scan of the Sunday World thing which is not surpringly a bad photocopy.( http://oireland.tripod.com/sunday2.JPG and http://oireland.tripod.com/sunday.JPG ) ( He had a dublin accent btw as did the others I think and I take it that you have just witnessed Irish taxpayers money being put to its usual good use!)
Obviously I believe its a forgery, and obviously totally untrue, so I don't believe there is any sense in which this document libels anybody or Asbourne garda station of course.
I even went to the Mater casualty unit to check to see had he been there on that date for the assault on him that he mentioned. This is not investigative stuff i simply couldnt find him at that time (I was early for the meeting) and I thought he was still in casualty. His name was on the computers they have there alright. for 5.20 pm yesterday (thursday). When I eventually met him then his face looked all beaten up I now feel using elaborate makeup.
I guess you might wonder how I know it is a setup? Various stuff and I am absolutely certain of it. BTW he wanted to contact people like Owen Rice and the private investigator Billy Flynn so you can take it they are top of the list of people that they would like to get close to.
Brian,
I've just read your last 3 comments and I haven't a clue what the F**k you are on about????
I was very interested in Jim Gunnings story at the meeting, are you now saying that it wasn't true?
If so, why?
well done on the report - however, I would be very slow to accept that the story told on the day by anyone you have mentioned in the above is not [approximately] genuine.
Please drop me an email where I can reach you.
Shalom, BP
BP and 'interested'
I apologise 'interested ' and 'BP' I ought to give more detailed reasons. Anyway the story goes that I was at the meeting obviously and I think both of you will agree that what is strking at these meetings is how little time people get to put their cases, which of course is no fault of the organisers or Frank McBrearty. The fact is that people are trying to condense into a few minutes in some cases decades of legal or policing abuse and it is heartbreaking to see them having to sit down oftentimes when they have only really begun to put their case. So IMHO what people should do is scribble the case up and provide a proper landline number and put it up here on indymedia just like John Scully did (http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=72544 ). Anyhow I was listening to Jim Gunney while he was talking to a wide circle of people after the meeting and said that to him. So he said he wasnt computer literate and all that and I offered to help him type it up (but which would then be submitted in his own name of course) and hence I gave him my number . So for the following week he has contacted me regularly talking about intimidation he is facing etc and this ended up with him being run over on his bike by what he said was a special branch car on thursday/wednesday night. I thought then that Id better see him and I went to dublin but I was early for the time I was supposed to see him, I couldnt find him so I went to Casualty of the Mater hospital where he said he had gone to after the crash. As pointed out I was told he was there in casualty on that day but checked out. So anyway I met him later at his residence and he outlined his story and named numerous senior gardai etc. As well as his 'daughter' and another person who was a witness to the intimidation I also saw 3 documents. One was a photocopy of the story he said at the meeting (but with more details), one was the sunday world article he said he had been featured in, and one was a one line acknowledgement from the DPP's office of receipt of a statement that he said he had sent to that office (he didnt let me keep it). His face was all smashed up as well as a result of the bicycle accident. I bought it at the time but here is a number of the reasons why I dont now believe it:
1) I dont believe everybody would be so surprised at the meeting about his story if he had already been featured in the Sunday World and other outlets that he mentioned.
2) His daughter is much older than 12 as stated in the Sunday World thing and would be well capable of running away from any person if an incident like he described had occurred.
3) He said he had been in contact with Michael McDowell, the secretary of the Dept. of Justice, a number of TD's and still needed my help to type things up?.
4) This is not an answer that most would understand but I will give it anyway. The fact is that a lot of people facing injustice in ireland tend to be a small bit psychologically scarred by the experience. What I mean is that they come across sometimes a little bit reserved among other people, as a result of their exsperiences, and they are also a little obsessed about their own cases. This is definitely NOT and I repeat NOT a criticism of anybody caught up like this , I am a 100 per cent certain that I would be the same way if it happened to me but I put it to you that if you ever meet anybody hit with injustice like that then maybe you might agree with me. He didnt strike me that way, he was quite affable and would talk about anything not just his own case.
So thats it, thats my opinion and I know that everybody at the meeting (including at least one on the panel) believed this story and this is just my tuppence worth. I know its dissapointing BP that anybody would abuse the setting to create disinformation, if this is what it is, but I guess there are parties out there that we can all guess at who wouldnt mind that outcome at all!.
William Finnerty
I think I can say you were there in spirit and i wish you the best of luck in your ongoing case.
Conor Martin
Your right of course, it would be great if people could speak longer but there are so many cases what can the organisers do? You could have a full week of meetings like this and i dont think youd get through the half of it.
Moya
You know a lot of people like that get dismissed as 'nutters' but i dont think you would be so dismissive if you heard people in person?.Like look at all the comments, all the people actually at the meeting including some not at all happy with the organisers or the politicians still said that it was striking and important what these ordinary irish citizens were saying?
Con Carroll
Doubt if robocop was there was to spread peace and goodwill! I guess u are making some valuable points..
Thomas on Jim Cairns
I think if this was Michael McDowell talking about paramilitaries he would call Jim Cairns a soft target! I suppose he is out on a limb and I dont know what to make about his website but after all 300,000 people took to the streets in belgium complaining about police and justice system coverup of child abductions. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux) . He is not the only one who has picked up rumors about that kind of stuff, this is from Ciaran Pairceir one of Cavans leading historians and a Phd from TCD.( http://www.iol.ie/~cparker/Tourism.htm ) make of it what you will:
"The place preserves its sinister lustre even now, being used by a devillishly sinister, quasi-masonic grouping for their meetings. They usually use mirrors in their ceremonies which are reputed to include repulsive acts of Satanic worship and self-abuse, along with discussions of how they can "plant" members and sympathizers in strategic posts, all the better to achieve world domination and protect themselves and their friends from the forces of justice and condemnation. They are reputed to have a particular liking for young children who are strongly advised not to play in the vicinity on a Monday evening. These individuals often parade themselves as devout but they are the epitome of the wolves in sheep's clothing. No matter how lurid an individual's past is a place will always be found for them. They are powerful with their dirty tentacles reaching to most areas of Irish life - a Catholic masonic order no less. They claim tostand for high moral standards but people with the most lamentable pasts and presents are welcomed into the fold and defended like blood brothers. They inspire loathing and fear in equal measure, as even the dogs in the street know of those members who have gained promotion ahead of other more qualified and promising candidates. And then they are rumoured to maintain an informal blacklist with the names of those who have offended them. Woe betide such souls lest they come before a judge who is a member or a bureaucrat who takes an interest in their case. I for one would be ashamed to have anything to do with them. " (The X rated way he writes means you dont know when he is being serious and when otherwise but this reference still stands out as remarkable IMHO)
Michael R.
Many thanks!!!.....absolutely and i couldnt get everything in Im afraid. I agree I think it was a reasonable crowd under those circumstances as pointed out if the big media are playing those games and the local authorities are pulling down posters then what can anybody do?
Tony
I take your point about one political party having a bigger prescece than another but what can the organisers do if they put out an invitation to all parties and only the SWP seem to come out in force? Its only a couple of minutes walk from the Dail, youd think that some members of the bigger parties could have come out to see what was going on. By the way Senator Jim Higgins MEP would have been there only for a family christening.
Phuq
Point taken again, I guess Dan Boyles TD offer to get more involved will be taken up? I dont know there is any fool proof structure that could stop any take over by a given party....
Tony Tighe
AFAIK its mainly Frank McBrearty junr personally that organisers it helped by many other victims and also by Donal MacFhearraigh and Colman Etchingham of the SWP.
Many thanks for all your comments and my apologies for being so slow to reply.
Hopefully the article scans mentioned above are available here: http://oireland.tripod.com/gunney.html .
anyone go an update on this?