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Workers' Party condemn arrest of Sean Garland

category national | rights, freedoms and repression | news report author Saturday October 08, 2005 12:09author by The Workers' Party - Press Office Report this post to the editors

WP vows to fight attempt to extradite Party President to United States

The Central Executive Commitee of the Workers' Party of Ireland condemns in the strongest terms the provocative and politically motivated arrest of Party President, Sean Garland, on the opening night of the party's annual delegate conference (Ard Fheis) in Belfast last night (Friday).

The Central Executive Committee of the Workers’ Party of Ireland condemns in the strongest terms the provocative and politically motivated arrest of Party President, Seán Garland, on the opening night of the party’s annual delegate conference in Belfast.

Seán Garland is a long-standing and respected member of the Workers’ Party who has consistently worked for peace and democracy in Northern Ireland and for the unity of the Irish working-class. He has opposed oppression throughout the world and, as a senior member of the Workers’ Party, he has been a vocal critic of the policies of the United States of America in its quest for global hegemony, most recently in opposition to the war on Iraq.

The request for the extradition of Seán Garland by the US government to a country which has a long record for the repression of socialists and progressives, both at home and abroad, and where no political opponent can expect a fair trial, is a blatant attempt to interfere in the affairs of a democratic political party and to intimidate those who oppose US imperial interests. The Workers’ Party makes clear that it will not be intimidated and that it shall oppose, by every means at its disposal, all attempts to extradite Seán Garland from his homeland to a US prison.

The Workers’ Party calls on all progressive forces in Ireland, Britain, and throughout the world - particularly those people who have worked closely with our Party in the past, to oppose this persecution of a political activist with a long history of selfless work for his Party and his class.

The Party has contacted the Departments of the Taoiseach, Foreign Affairs and numerous T.Ds, Senators and members of the European Parliament. The Party calls upon Taoiseach Bertie Ahern to immediately demand the release of Sean Garland as a respected Irish citizen.

author by agcspublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 14:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I hope that the workers party will co operate fully with the gardai in this matter - in the same way as they have consistently urged nationalists in the north to cooperate with the RUC and security forces.

author by Huh?publication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 15:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He was arrested by the PSNI in Belfast you dork.

author by agcspublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 15:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Just re-read the article .I was so over the moon when I read he'd been arrested that I didn't take in the detail . Belfast ! - well all the better. I hope he gives the Ruc -excuse me PSNI - the fullest cooperation and I hope the Workers party does too.

author by Barrypublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 16:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thats what Sean Garlands party used to call the RUC .Its a wonder Seans former close comrade in the Workers Party , Rosaline Moore , who now sits on the Police Authority in Belfast never wired him off for oul times sake .

What a week its been , first Slab , Jim Gray and now him . Seems theres a serious amount of spring cleaning going on and none of the old gangsters are needed anymore now the state has everyone where they want them .

nice link here to the demise of the WP .Seems poor Sean is destined to become a footnote in history .

http://www.fourthwrite.ie/issue9alt11.html

author by pat cpublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 16:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Heres a little info:

"Leader of 'Official IRA' in forgery plot

An Irish republican leader is responsible for flooding the UK money markets with near-perfect counterfeit money, it has been claimed.
The BBC's Panorama programme has traced the supply of millions of fake US dollars to Sean Garland, a leader of the former paramilitary group, the Official IRA.

Panorama also reveals that the profit from passing the currency is used to fund the republican group - which split with the better known Provisional IRA in 1970. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3822005.stm

author by pat cpublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 16:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Heres the transcript o0f the Panorama programme:

Related Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/programmes/panorama/transcripts/superdollar.txt
author by hmmmpublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 16:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

it appears to be troubled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Workers_Party_(Ireland)
I also notice that no wikipedian has written on Sean Garland. You'd think with all these national and international security issues, the garda would have got round to it.
Anyway, what I want to know is - (hopefully there's a stickie out there who can answer)
did the WP support the single european currency?
did the WP support the ending of the punt /IR pound?
what position does the WP have no sterling?
Now coz i've been around the gloomy murkey blocks a few time, I know that a huge percentage of hard cash in the world is counterfeit.
I also know that the creation and printing of the € as a hard currency meant the loss of criminal assets in older national currencies (punts, lira, pesetas, francs, marks in no particular order) were mega. & that ever since those with huge stocks of traceable or difficult to launder cashnotes in those currencies have supported a return to those currencies and lobby against the €.
So...
Did the WP support the € aware or unaware that it would have such an effect on counterfeit assets?

& what treaty covers any resulting investigation of WP activists or members of that party (whose stronghold wikipedia tells me is waterford) by any section of the Garda Siochana where the Gardaí will "co-operate" (=outsource) with the appropriate US agency (the US secret service). I am not aware of any public accountable or transparent process of co-operation between the Irish state and the USSS, (which covers bodygaurd duties on VIPS, the presidency, the UN and counterfeit money).
Or will the USSS be asked to liase with minister mc dowell through the FBI or CIA?

author by kintamapublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 17:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Looks like the Workers Party believe that a 'securocrat' plot is afoot. How ironic.

author by Barrypublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 19:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Adams and McGuinness get visas to the USA , poor Sean gets a one way ticket . When you pass your useful sell-by date the establishment arent long letting you know .

Thats what happens when the Brits dont need a particular stick to beat republicans with anymore .

author by hmmmpublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 20:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

perhaps we've all been looking the wrong way and didn't notice the little mice come into our collectors' items bricky sticky section out the back of our magical bookshop.

The "stickies" (as we call them) or the Workers' Party have been silent for a while. & do remember they are a party, not just one individual without a wikipedia entry ; Mr Garland. They're small yes, but still bigger than "the mens' council" and probably as historical as that other lot we hear from regularly rsf.

I've just gone through the archives and from regular posts back in 2001 to early 2003 (when the site was still growing) they fell silent in 2004 just as they _did_ play their part in anti-war protest in the south of the country. Their (Garland's) call for Fintan Lane's release was welcomed by the Cork antiwar group. [hmmm : was that before or after the historic fairview anti war split?]

Remember their involvement in Shannon _from the beginning_ and their contribution to monitoring traffic there?
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=9997

& have ye forgotten how Seán Ó Cionnaith a member of the party in Dublin north west died at 67 years of age after suffering a heart attack at the February 15th world anti-war demonstration day?
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=29284

In short, the WP have asked above for
"all progressive forces in Ireland, Britain, and throughout the world - particularly those people who have worked closely with our Party in the past, to oppose this persecution of a political activist with a long history of selfless work for his Party and his class."

Now I don't know if everything he did was good, or selfless, for his class. But the way in which that appeal is worded appeals to some part of my "fraternity" response code, and it has been like that all along through the timespan of this site. They come across as a decent bunch of longtime lefties of a particular kind who became one of the rumps of Irish political history.

If one of their members is convicted in a court {after the proper and due process of law in keeping with his rights due him by nationality, citizenship, UN charter, under any accountable and transparent extradition order} and *is the only one to be so* - then we ought to have followed the case with attention before hand. Because it will have effected others (not just Garland) before hand comrades.

author by Barrypublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 23:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

My principles tell me that an Irishman being extradited to the US for undermining its economy should be opposed . My memory of the sticks is one of their support for draconian legislation including the extradition of political suspects . They also supported the British Army and the RUC , and even elements within loyalism when they were all killing their fellow Irishmen which makes it very hard to be true to my principles in this case .

And certain sticks under his leadership even joined in the killing of their fellow Irishmen whose backs were to the wall more than a few times . Sean Garland led a faction which was equally treacherous and vicious . It ended up adopting an outwardly unionist position and now theyre trying to tug at republican heartstrings and claim political persecution .

The stickie leadership maxim was always "my enemys enemy is my friend" , and republicans were the prime enemy for them . Now Mr Garlands former British friends have turned upon him its very hard to sympathise at his plight . Im actually friends with a few old sticks , and I dont think theyve a high opinion either .

A moral quandary , Ill have to mull it over for a while .

author by court reporterpublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 23:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

with an address in Navan.

The conditions of his bail were 3 seperate surities of £10,000 paid to a Belfast court and the condition that he live at an adress in County Down (northern Ireland) for the interim period of 65 days (if / until the US file for extradition).

Sean Garland (71) president of the workers' party ireland.
Sean Garland (71) president of the workers' party ireland.

author by Republicanpublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 23:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The extradition of anyone with 'left-wing' politics to face Bush 'justice' is not something I could support under any circumstances. In that sense, I will stand with the sticks on this one.

However, some questions:

1. How does this square with repeated calls by Garland and the WP to support the northern authorities and the RUC in their attempt to repress the nationalist community? They rejoiced in the arrest and imprisonment of republicans, now they want our sympathy and support. Hypocrites. Well, while they have my support (for reasons of principle), they don't have my sympathy.

2. All of this reminds us of the WP's overt support for dispicable dictatorships such as that in North Korea. If you lie down with dogs...

3. And it also reminds us of the continued existance of the Official IRA long after it supposedly stood down. We must also assume that an active paramilitary group has weapons. Indeed, despite their repeated call on people to tout on the IRA and for the IRA to decommission its weapons etc., there has never been any sign of the Official IRA decommissioning anything! This is an organisation that was geared for war in the early 1970s and armed to the teeth. Where are the guns? And what are they used for?

author by Barrypublication date Sat Oct 08, 2005 23:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

and was importing weaponry long after the 70s . The sticks not only spied for the brits but even used to stop young provos in the streets and search them right up to the mid 70s , acting as a police force . Much like the provos today have been doing for quite a while in Belfast and elsewhere come to think of it .

The word hypocrite springs to mind , but I dont want to be a hypocrite meself , hence my moral quandary . Unlike the sticks its wrong to be glad when draconian laws are used against fellow Irishmen . Plus he is quite old .

author by agcspublication date Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The well-armed sticks were tolerated with their money laundering and drug dealing because they opposed the provos when the latter were at war For the last two decades they were nothing more than a police informers’ shebeen until Gerry and co come along and stole their niche . That's when the sticks became an embarrassment to everybody and the excise man moved in to close them down . How long before the Green Blazer brigade get the same treatment ?
For anybody getting into a moral dilemma about defending Garland , there's no need to worry . He is very well able to take care of himself and is , you can be sure , singing like a canary right at this very moment .Pat Rabitte , De Rossa , Eoghain Harris and the rest are a different matter ; they all have dirty secrets and ,as long as the eminence gris is alive , they will have restless nights .

author by Wiki P - Wikipediapublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 00:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Genearl Garland now has his own Wikipediaentry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_Garland

Anybody have an idea on the names of Official IRA chiefs of staff apart from Goulding and Garland?

author by Wiki P againpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 00:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

That's General Garland of course....

I also meant to add that isn't it Interesting that the alleged chiefs of staff of the Official and Provisional IRAs both hit the headlines in the same week. Maybe "General" Garland and "Slab" Murphy should set up some kind of support group to help themselves and other gangsters in need.

author by socialistpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 00:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

even if i don't agree with the wp politics it's stall an attack on all of us

author by irish personpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 01:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

From the Sindo, "The Police waited till he had crossed the Border into Northern Ireland because Ireland don't have an extradiion treaty with the US and several previous extraditions requests had been refused."

author by Curiouspublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Garland was ordered by the judge to stay in County Down. What if he doesn't? Can he be extradited back to the North, if the soul purpose of that extradition would be to extradite him to a country that the Republic doesn't have an agreement with?

author by pat cpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"even if i don't agree with the wp politics it's stall an attack on all of us"

how is it an attack on allof us? how many of us are distributing forged $100 bills?

author by IT readerpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

PSNI arrests Garland at WP Ardfheis
By Gerry Moriarty, Northern Editor
10/10/2005

The Workers' Party Ardfheis, which was held for the first time in Belfast at the weekend, was dominated by the PSNI arrest of its president, Seán Garland, in relation to alleged international counterfeiting offences, writes Gerry Moriarty

Mr Garland (71), from Navan, was arrested on Friday at a Belfast restaurant. He was released on court bail on Saturday evening but not in time to deliver his presidential address to the ardfheis, which instead was read by ardchomhairle member Dessie O'Hagan.

He was released pending his potential extradition to the US. The US authorities claim he and others bought, moved and either passed as genuine or resold high- quality counterfeit $100 notes.

The US government is further claiming that Mr Garland "arranged with North Korean agencies for the purchase of quantities of notes and enlisted other people to disseminate" the money, known as "superdollars".

A defence lawyer for Mr Garland told Belfast County Court on Saturday that his client "strongly protested" his innocence.

Three sureties of £10,000 each were lodged to enable Mr Garland's release on bail. It is understood that the US authorities have 65 days in which to lodge papers in the North for Mr Garland's extradition.

Workers' Party members took time off from their conference to stage a protest outside Belfast City Hall on Saturday. The party's general secretary, John Lowry, said the arrest was "politically motivated".

"This has caused intense anger and happened because of our opposition to the Iraq war and because we challenge US policies. We have raised the matter with the Taoiseach's office and the Department of Foreign Affairs. We hope to meet the Taoiseach shortly about this attack on an Irish citizen," added Mr Lowry.

He said the Workers' Party would now mount a legal and political campaign to have the extradition threat against Mr Garland lifted.

In his speech, Mr Garland accused the provisional republican movement of injecting a virulent poison into Irish society which would take years to heal and cure. He denounced republican and loyalist violence and said there was now a historic opportunity to rebuild the party and unite the working class throughout the island.

Mr Garland three times described IRA decommissioning as a "surrender" of weapons. "It seems that many commentators are treating this surrender of arms as a watershed for the Provos without recognising the reality of this surrender," he told delegates.

"The Provos have made a virtue out of necessity. For over two decades now, it has been clear that the Provos were desperately seeking a way out of the morass into which many of them had blindly and stupidly entered," he added.

Mr Garland said that over 36 years Sinn Féin and the IRA were "spawned and nurtured" by church and state. "We cannot begin to measure the depths in human misery. . . that they have brought upon the people of Ireland and indeed many other places. They injected a virulent poison into an already sick society." He added, "We well recognise that the Provisional IRA were not alone in feeding the hate, despair and terror which Northern Ireland has endured over the decades from loyalist terrorists, ultra-leftist gangsters parading as socialists and republicans and indeed from our own tradition, where the Official IRA had in its ranks elements who sought to murder and inflict terror on innocent people."

Mr Garland said that the "panoramic march of capitalism can only be halted by the power and organisation of the working class" throughout Ireland.

Mr Lowry told the ardfheis that "there never was any justification whatsoever for the armed campaign of the Provisional IRA" but nonetheless welcomed the disarmament.

"The experience of the last 30 years in Northern Ireland has left many people deeply embittered and has left a deep legacy of mistrust and division which may take generations to overcome. Nonetheless, we welcome this act of disposing of weapons and call upon all paramilitary organisations to do likewise," he said.

Mr Lowry said priority issues for the Workers' Party would include the consolidation of peace and an end to all paramilitarism and an anti-sectarianism strategy.

© The Irish Times

author by historianpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 13:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Was Comrade Garland referring to North Korea?

author by Sergepublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 13:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It should go without saying, that we should oppose Garlands extradition to the US, if only beacuse he would not get a fair trial, and most of us would agree that everyone is entitled to a fair trial. Secondly, who are the CIA and their minions to judge his guilt or otherwise given their involvement in an infinity of dodgy dealings with various mafias and brutal regimes over the years. I also think theres something to the idea of the British turning on an organisation that served a purpose (unwittingly in most cases) during the war with the Provos but is way past its sell by date now, so that its realpolitik not concern for the rule of law that's motivated the sudden move against the WP President.
That said there is a political point to be made here about the WP. Let us put aside our own instincts and the circumstantial evidence and say that the dollars scam is unproven. What is a matter of record, confirmed by S. Garland himself, is that he and the company he directs have had business dealings with China, including a meeting in China with a senior Chinese party official and that the WP have friendly relations with North Korea. How can the president of a party that claims to be socialist have relations with the autocratic rulers of what is the most exploitative capitalist state in the world? Has Sean and the WP missed all those stories about the thousands of coal miners dying in accidents caused by sub-human conditions, about the encouragement of multi-nationals in the coastal zones to exploit cheap rural labour, about the savage supression of strikes and independent unions, about the genocidal policies against the Tibetan and Uighir people, about the alliances with such 'progressive' regimes as Pakistan, Iran and Russia? Or maybe these are just propaganda, cooked up by anarcho-fasco-trotskyist dupes of imperialism.

There is hardly a need to deal with the question of WP relations with the autocratic confucian-stalinist kingdom of North Korea, except to say that the party will not have any problem if that bizarre state, as now seems likely, morphs into another China. Goodbye Juche, Hello Microsoft, Oh fancy that you're still in charge Comrade Kim Jong Il!

So yes, we should oppose Garlands extradition, just like we would oppose anyones extradition to the US but let's not confuse gangster capitalism (be it in Asia or Ireland) with socialism.

author by Barrypublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 14:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

just because the workers party (plc) are an unprincipled bunch of slime it doesnt mean genuine socialists , republicans or even just decent Irish citizens should abandon their principles .

Plus itll be good fun if the press carry on badgering him and fellow stickies over this , as well as aking them when they are going to decomission their arms .

And if Sean legs it back home to Navan Berties gonna have to explain why neither he or the columbia 3 are being extradited . HEll be palling about with Castro and Chavez if this keeps up , with his bolthole for FARC / N Korea marxist terrorist types. Hell regret calling himself a socialist , Bush may declare him part of the axis of evil .

I can support Garland on simply a human rights basis , but anyone who publicly encouraged Thatcher not to accede to the Hungerstrikers ( .ie let them wear their own clothes) cannot be supported as a socialist or a progressive . Anyone who supported extradition , draconian laws and the British Army and RUC when they were killing , maiming and blinding Irish kids with plastic bullets isnt a progressive .

Does anyone know if Harris has made any comment on the arrest of his long time boss ?

author by pat cpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 14:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i guess i would oppose his extradition on the basis that he wouldnt get a free trial. but how different is "capitalist gangsterism" from "stalinist gangsterism"?

why does nobody in the WP question Garlands lifestyle or where his money comes from?

author by Ultra Leftistpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 14:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Serge, I can understand the points you raised but from what I know of General Garland, he would detest you and your views and label you as an "ultra leftist". Now that he's in a spot of trouble, it will be interesting whether he'll banish the word "ultra leftist", a staple in his vocabulary since the 1970s and a term he uses at every possible opportunity. I don't see how the Left will be rushing to support a Release General Garland campaign as he's made only enemies in the assorted parties of the Irish Left over the years. I wouldn't be going to far in saying that he's feared and indeed hated by many. The Provos certainly won't be rushing to highlight his treatment at the hands of the PSNI, nor will his former comrades now in RSF be too bothered about him.

author by unkle jopublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 18:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Pat you presume that Garland is guilty of gangsterism. So you will have to define what you mean by that term. Bolsheviks were accused of gangsterism, the IRSP/INLA are accused of gangsterism as are the Provo's, loyalists, FARC, all of the Iraqi resistance, the Talaban, any revolutionary organisation of the left, corrupt parties of the right like Fianna Fail and so on.

Im sure the anarchists of Spain were accused of gangsterism by the republican government.

I assume that you are non plussed by Garlands arrest because he is a member of the WP and because the WP has been ambigious about the arrest of so many republicans in the past. Well then you have a lot in common with Garland. Garland at least has been constitant whereas you have fluctitate between loving and hating the Provos depending on your mood

Since the 1970s he has argued against the "armed struggle" He has beeen opposed to the activities of the INLA and the PIRA and has stated this openly. I can understand (although not condone) his hatred of the INLA - he took seven bullets in an attempt by them to murder him in Ballymun. However your hatred for the WP is beyond comprehension - get over it.

author by pat cpublication date Mon Oct 10, 2005 19:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Pat you presume that Garland is guilty of gangsterism. So you will have to define what you mean by that term."

I mean his personal circumstances, dont you wonder where his income comes from? who paid for his navan house? his fancy car? have a olok at the bbc links.

" Garland at least has been constitant whereas you have fluctitate between loving and hating the Provos depending on your mood"

I neither love nor hate the provos. i always disagreed with their civilian bombings and the targetting of civilian workers at army and ruc bases. when i think Sinn Fein is coming under unfair attack i will defend them. when i disagree with them i will also make that clear.

"Since the 1970s he has argued against the "armed struggle" "

Ha! Ha! Since the 1970s he has presided over feuds with the PIRA (twice), the INLA and the assassination of Seamus Costello. Not to mention the bank robberies and previous counterfeiting carried out by the OIRA.

"I can understand (although not condone) his hatred of the INLA - he took seven bullets in an attempt by them to murder him in Ballymun. "

This was during a feud when the OIRA was killing IRSP members. Hes come a long way from Ballymun though. Much nicer house in Navan now.



"However your hatred for the WP is beyond comprehension - get over it."

I dont get your point. I merely raised info which pointed towards Garland being a gangster. i think there are decent people in the wp, i think they should also be asking questions about Garland.

author by John O'Neill - personalpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As I knew Sean Garland I have to comment on the remark that he has in some way made money for his own personal gain.

SG has lived in the same bungalow in Navan, I would say, over 20 years now, long before Navan was considered a suburb of Dublin and house prices were tiny compared to today.

I worked in the same building as SG and, whatever you think of him or his politics, I never saw any signs that he had any money. After 55 years devotion to politics and struggle he should be left alone.

He is president of the WP. Adams, his SF equivalent, has a gaff in Belfast and a lurvely chateau in Donegal, yet no one accuses him of living off the proceeds of gangsterism

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well what do you think about the other criticisms of the WP listed above?

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

if you read the bbc transcript above you will read of garland et al staying in 5 star hotels in moscow and elsewhere. is that the norm for WP members abroad on party business?

now looking at the panorama pieces, it would make you wonder. now is this all a conspiracy dreamed up by yhe bbc and cia to frame the leader of a politically irrelevant party in ireland? or might there be sonething to it after all?

author by John O'Neill - personalpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I parted way with the WP seven years ago. I was accused by the party of various "anti party activities" which I denied. I was also accused of being a Trot a nationalist and an Earp - not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. I was expelled after a number of years in the WP.

Being thrown out of anything can influence your opinion. I have political criticisms of the WP. Their politics have been twisted by their obsession with the Provo's. But this thread is about the arrest of Sean Garland not about the politics of the WP. I think all of us should be concerned when someone is arrested and we know that they have already been found guilty by the media and are unlikely to get a fair trial in the US.

The other issues raised in this thread don't interest me. If people who consider themselves progressive are going to support the Evil Empire, thats up to them. I won't.

author by John O'Neill - personal opinionpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 13:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"if you read the bbc transcript above you will read of garland et al staying in 5 star hotels in moscow and elsewhere. is that the norm for WP members abroad on party business?"

I was on holidays a few years ago in Spain - Santa Ponsa to be exact - I stayed in a 5 star hotel for a week - it cost me IR£150.00

"now looking at the panorama pieces, it would make you wonder. now is this all a conspiracy dreamed up by yhe bbc and cia to frame the leader of a politically irrelevant party in ireland? or might there be sonething to it after all?"

You only have to read Phillip Agee's book - 'Inside the Company' to know nothing is beyond the CIA.

author by Seamuspublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 13:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

well Im going to be a hyprocrite and abandon my anarchist principles for just this once. The fact that Garland was a willing tool of the British imperium makes it all the more amusing now that they have turned on him. The Pheonix magazine had predicted this many months ago in some insightful articles. Quelle surprise. I can just imagine him in an orange guantanamo boiler suit. Ha ha ha ha.

Sill think my principles would be streched at that and Id have to argue for his release. To hell with all stickies.
S

author by Bakuninpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 13:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

garland is an imperialist lackie

who isnt? adams?

are the inla? cira? both are on ceasefire so they are allowing the continued occupation.

as for anarchists did they ever fight imperialism in ireland?

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"You only have to read Phillip Agee's book - 'Inside the Company' to know nothing is beyond the CIA."

c'mon, why would they decide to frame a politically irrelevant figure like garland? do you seriously believe that this is all just a set up?

i think you'll find that top hotels in moscow are more expensive then the bargain you got.

author by John O'Neillpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Pat my point is you don't know neither do I.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

heres some excerpts:

"LAWN: Moscow, the city at the heart of the operation. Here the money was first passing into the hands of
the criminal gangs. We went to the Russian capital to investigate the trail left by the Birmingham
counterfeiting gang and the man who controlled them. On the 25th June, 1999, Terrence Silcock and his
associates flew into Moscow to close another counterfeit deal. Panorama obtained these flight manifests
which detail passenger lists into the city on that day. They show that on the same day Silcock arrived in
Moscow, so too did Sean Garland. We also discovered that not only was Sean Garland in town, but he was
being followed by an elite team of Russian police, General Vladimir Uskov was the head of that unit.

Was Mr Garland under surveillance for his time in Moscow?

GEN. VLADIMIR USKOV
Russian Interior Police
Yes, he was. Information we received showed that he was involved in he supply of counterfeit dollars.

LAWN: General Uskov and his men followed Sean Garland as he visited the North Korean Embassy in
Moscow.

USKOV: We registered his contacts with the North Korean Embassy. He visited the Embassy several
times. The fact he went to the North Korean Embassy our information was that people working there may
have been involved in the transportation of counterfeit dollars.

MAN (Secret filming): Sean's connections down there are good, yeah.

LAWN: We discovered that Sean Garland has a longstanding relationship with the North Korean Embassy
in Moscow. Panorama has obtained these faxes written by him to officials at the Embassy. The faxes
discuss an apparently legitimate trade relationship between Sean Garland and officials there that has existed
for several years. But the North Korean Embassy in Moscow isn't just involved in trade. The senior North
Korean defector who spoke to Panorama confirms that the Embassy was a centre for the distribution of
superdollars.

Former North Korean Counterfeiter
DEFECTOR: Of all the North Korean embassies around the world, the biggest was in Moscow. Almost all
North Koreans travelling abroad return via Moscow. People would go to the Treasury Department of the
Embassy. They would be given either real US dollars or counterfeit notes. Nobody knew what they were
getting because you couldn't distinguish between the real money and the fake money. Only a very few
people knew that the notes being given out were counterfeit."

"LAWN: As the Russian police followed Sean Garland around the streets of Moscow, Terence Silcock and
his associates waited in their hotel for news about the deal.

Was there any link between Sean Garland and Terence Silcock in Moscow?

VLADIMIR: No.

LAWN: Sean Garland and the Birmingham criminals may have done their best to avoid being seen
together but Panorama can reveal that they did in fact make contact. We visited the hotel where the
Birmingham criminals have stayed and we were given access to a room bill for the period. On it is a print
out of telephone calls. One of the calls is to an Irish mobile number with an international roaming facility.
This is Sean Garland's mobile telephone number. The Birmingham criminals were in Moscow and they
were in direct contact with Sean Garland. But we found out that this wasn't the only time their paths had
crossed in Moscow. Terence Silcock and his associates had been in town six months previously from the
14th to the 18th of January 1999. Once again we contacted various hotels in Moscow and found out that
they'd stayed in the Sheraton. There was no record of Sean Garland having stayed there. But there was
another possibility, on the undercover tapes we'd heard that Sean, the Irish boss, often negotiated his deals
in the five star Metropol Hotel.

TODD (Secret filming): I am sitting in f----- Moscow. No one arrives. I'm in the Metropol. Anyway to cut
a long story short, I'm there for another two days. Sean arrives – I say Sean this is not f----- on.

LAWN: So we made our way to the Metropol. It's one of the most exclusive hotels in town and it turns out
that Sean Garland is a well known face here.

Mr Garland is a fairly regular visitor at this hotel, isn't he?

WOMAN: Yes.

LAWN: When did he start coming here?

WOMAN: He start coming here in 1995.

LAWN: How many times has he been here?

WOMAN: For six times.

LAWN: Was he here at the start of 1999?

WOMAN: Yes, he stayed there from 18th to…. sorry, from 14th to 18th of January 1999.

LAWN: From 14th until 18th of January 1999.

This is the luxurious $500 a night suite where the Workers Party President stayed during his Moscow visit.
We obtained a hotel bill that confirms Sean Garland stayed here during these dates. Once again he was in
Moscow at Exactly the same time as the Birmingham cell. They were close by in the Sheraton and we
discovered that from this room the Birmingham criminals again called Sean Garland's mobile phone.
Moscow was at the heart of the conspiracy and Panorama has uncovered new evidence about the operation
run from Ireland by Sean Garland, an operation that's been funding his organisation for years.

SILCOCK (Secret filming): He's a communist, he has communist beliefs which is what the old IRA is. But
what I do know is that when he capitalises on the paperwork, it all goes back into the organisation.

LAWN: We obtained signed statements from former official IRA members which detail how millions of
superdollars have passed unnoticed throughout the UK and Ireland. They say that what began as a
revolutionary conspiracy against capitalism has now turned into a licence to print money for a criminal
elite. "

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"This is the luxurious $500 a night suite where the Workers Party President stayed during his Moscow visit. "

Well i do know how much his hotel cost. he doesnt negotiate as godd a bargain as you do.

if the cia were going to frame someone then they would have went for a bigger fish than garland. in ireland hes politically irrelevant.

what about garlands mobile phone? do you reckon the cia falsified the records?

author by John O'Neillpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The words of exKGB men or Criminals or the local Guards in Moscow can be bought.

Informers, spys, agents of Imperialism, its a murky world,who knows any of their motives?

author by PN-14342publication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Santa Ponsa on the island of Mallorca in the balearics boasts many hotels but only one 5 star.
Did you stay at the Port Adriano Marina?
Follow this link and the pictures might jog your memory. What season did you go in?
Lovely place btw.
http://www.holidaycityeurope.com/port-adrianomarina-mallorca/

Anyway little bit of info some of you might have missed on why copies of 100$bill "PN 14342"
are so popular
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70505&condense_comments=false#comment123662

author by Mark Cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why would the CIA not try to capture a man they believe counterfeited millions of dollars? He may be small politically but millions is a lot of money.

Mark.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

its all just a conspiracy. the bbc, kgb, cia, ex oira members etc have all gotten together to launch an unholy war against garland.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Why would the CIA not try to capture a man they believe counterfeited millions of dollars? He may be small politically but millions is a lot of money."

I'm sure they would.

My point is: why would they concoct a conspiracy against garland? for this to be a conspiracy it would mean that the bbc, cia, ex-kkgb, current Russian Security and ex oira members would all have to be in league together to frame garland!

author by hmmmmpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There has been no suggestion that Mr Garland did it, just that he is in the loop.
he is accused of distributing stock of one the best fake 100$ bills (notes) ever made.

Please - get these little details right.

Also the USSS are believed to want to extradite him *not the CIA*. You can't get a proper conspiracy discussion together these days.

author by piratepublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

over the internet in a framed gift set with the the words "this is not legal tender" printed over them.

This way I'm not breaking the law.
I'll sell you these for 85$ each.
Now that price suggests I'm not in the loop.
The cheaper I can offer you PN14342 the closer I am to the source [classified]. If I offer you PN14342 at 10€ or less you know I've inky paws.

you know my number. get those bids in. stock is limited. :-) as benjamin franklin the man on the note said
"time is money" .:.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

hmmm is of course correct. its the US Secret Service which tackles counterfeiting. But does their writ run abroad? would they have needed to use the cia to gather intelligence?

author by An batapublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

We can ignore the justice system. The Brits and Yanks are right. Pat's the judge. And as for ex-kgb, ex-officials, ex-cia - first time for Pat believe to that lot.
Of course Panorama has a track record of always being completely right. Great coverage in the build up to the Iraq war.
John I'd leave it if I was you. Pat's in his pantomine season - he'll have to have the last word.

author by John O'Neillpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 14:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You should read "Dirty Tricks" I think its by Martin Dillon. He outlines the type of things MI5 etc got up to in the North. Setting up RUC men for murder to protect the identity of informers. Shooting republicans during feuds to heighten anamosities between groups, murdering informers that had outlived their usefullness (Falls road bookie shop), robbing banks (the littlejohns), arming loyalists, I could go on.

The book Political Murder in Northern Ireland also cites instinces of their activities that are quiet "unbelivable" yet I believe they happened. I don't know why an "insignificant" group like the WP warrents a BBC documentry. Then I don't know why MI5 would assist in the murder of RUC men. This discussion is going around in circles I don't see the point in continuing. Lets agree to disagree.

author by Barrypublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If a non WP member , particularly a republican or any other shade of socialist / anarchist was in the same boat today you wouldnt hear a peep out of sean garland or the Workers Party plc . There would be no calls for "progressive unity" . Thered be damn all concern about your human rights or getting a fair trial . In fact theyd probably quite like it that a heretic was getting his comeuppance .

You can bet your last superdollar on that .

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i'm fully aware of the brit tradition of dirty tricks. buts its stretching it to believe that so many diverse groups have come together to conspire against a person like garland.

lets agree to disagree.

author by Mark Cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

John and Pat, why not exchange email addresses and correspond in private. Save indymedia some bandwidth, because as far as I can see you just have two different perspectives to the same problem. You'd probably agree with each other if you sat down over a pint.

Mark.
PS Sorry for interfering.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

glad to see another stick appear. i'm just curious as to why garland never dealt with these allegations when they first emerged in 2002 and again with the panorama prog in 2004.

why didnt he rebut them? why not take libel action?

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

indy threads are here for debate. you are welcome to join in. as you see john and i have agreed to disagree.

but i will obviously respond to other points if i so choose.

author by An batapublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why didn't the brits and the yanks arrest him when they first made the allegations? I first read Gertz's story well over four years ago. It's taken them some time to act and for the record the allegations were rebutted at the time. ("The spokesman dismissed the claims of illegal activity, saying counterfeiting accusations against the Workers´ Party have appeared "every so often.")
Was it intelligence sources who knew that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? As for ex-official sources well couldn't that be anyone of several members of the Dail?
But then you won't need to go through the procedures of a court case cause you already know he is guilty. But then the courts did find for De Rossa in his libel action. And you know that was right.

BTW Barry I know this exercises your mind a bit but surely you would agree that two wrongs don't make a right.

author by John O'Neillpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"glad to see another stick appear. i'm just curious as to why garland never dealt with these allegations when they first emerged in 2002 and again with the panorama prog in 2004."

Pat, as I have already stated and most know I am not a member of the WP. Is it a case of - once a stick......?

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i still think this a rather diverse and unlikely bunch to come together and conspire against garland.

derossa did well in his libel case, even with a special branch chief superintendant (joe egan) giving evidence against him. maybe garland should have tried it on.

however theres no point in repeating ourselves.

lets agree to disagree.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

""glad to see another stick appear. i'm just curious as to why garland never dealt with these allegations when they first emerged in 2002 and again with the panorama prog in 2004.""

john i was referring to an bata.

author by An batapublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Then what does 'another' mean? Doesn't that make it plural?

author by Barrypublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

the Brits dont try and pin the multi million pound building site tax scams which have operated since the late 1970s on him . The sticks invented that particular scam which made them an absolute fortune . Dont think any of them ever got done for it .

Lets hope too that their belfast drinking clubs , such as the one in Twinbrook , the other one in Turf lodge , and not forgetting the other one in the Markets dont ever get asked "where did you get the money to build these quite large premises"

The sticks raised millions upon millions from criminal activity . It certainly wasnt used to prosecute a war (not against the Brits ayway) .
I know one sticky ( nice enough chap) who even sold their local hq and fecked off to spain . Bet hes having a wee chuckle today .

author by pat cpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 15:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Then what does 'another' mean? Doesn't that make it plural?"

i presumed that the original poster "WP press office" (dont ye reckon?) and uncle jo were sticks hence my comment another.

author by Amusedpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 16:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

But Barry thanks for amusing me with your hypocrisy.
And those dutch crims and croats are all models of virtue. And the bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, hijackings, extortion and robberies you support are all morally justified.
Cheers for the laugh.

author by Barrypublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 16:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What ?? If youre going to make accusations at least try and back them up .

If your country is under foreign military occupation and you are prosecuting , or even attempting to prosecute , an armed campaign against a modern colonial miltary its obvious youre going to need modern miltary hardware to do it . It is very costly stuff and doesnt grow on trees . Unlike Iraq it isnt just lying around to be gathered up . Unlike Russia in the 1920s the army isnt going to come to your aid . Therefore I certainly argue that unless a sponsor state or oil sheik is going to supply and fund you then youre going to have to do it yourself . Therefore the activities outlined above are perfectly acceptable in my opinion providing they are for that purpose only - to prosecute an armed campaign against a foreign invader .

However the situation with the Workers Party plc , and New Sinn Fein plc , is that these activites were being used to fund political parties and line peoples pockets . That is simply gangsterism . It is hypocritical in the extreme to call on people to support the state when you are breaking the laws of the state you have accepted as a legitimate entity . If you believe constitutional politics , within the British constitution are the only way forward thats your own business . But if youre engaging in rakets at the same time you deserve to be called a hypocrite .

And if youve encouraged people to pass on information to the state , as well as taking armed action against opponents on the states behalf (just as the sticks and now the provisionals have done) , then you shouldnt be surprised when people snigger when the state turns on you .

author by hmmmmmpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 20:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

We are continuing to keep this "marginally interesting" story alive on the comments list and by constant repetition of the name, G-a-r-l-a-n-d given the search engines something to think about.

Yes Pat C, you're quite right, the USSS would need advice from _another agency_ *such as the CIA* to prosecute the case. Maith an fhear!
Thats why the case interests me, and though we are only in the early "trial by media / bbc" stage, if in less than 60 days Garland is handed over to a US court, it will see him facing a prosecution led by the USSS.

& now ***that would be where it would get really interesting***

Because as I have pointed out to you, not even in his "trial by media" has anyone specifically said Garland forged the dough. Rather he distributed it.
For whom? and Where? obvious questions. But "whence did it come into his posession?" and the most interesting - "when?"

We are talking about copies of "parent note 14342". THere has been succesful prosecution in an american court relating to PN14342.
In fact, the origin of PN14342 is a classified secret belonging to the USSS *not the CIA nor the FBI*.
If Garland is guilty, then I'd love to hear the canary sing and learn the truth about PN14342 and I'm not the only one...

meanwhile the thread is open jog the memory & imagination! Call the defense! =

Is it possible in this day and age to destabilise economies with counterfeit money?

author by laura wagner o toolepublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 20:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

But I do remember that the Minister for Justice michael mc dowell warned us all that our modern economy is being destablised by fake toys, pirate dvds and counterfeit perfume the day before G.a.r.l.a.n.d.'s. arrest.
Since he's a citizen of this state, and had just left its jurisdiction a few hours to attent a party annual conference in Belfast where he was arrested, it seems plausible to presume Big Swinging Mickey Mc dowell knew before hand. & true to form couldn't resist the opportunity to make a little joke.

This implies, (bear with me here) that several international and national governmental departments have already overlapped on details of this case and the individual at its centre.

But only one is not accountable, or transparent in his actions.
Anyway, anyone want to buy me artistic forgeries?
I'll throw in fireworks and bangers too.

author by Badmanpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 21:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

From checking google a few minutes ago, this article is number 4 on the interweb for "sean garland", just behind 2 stories from the BBC and one unrelated link.

Hurrah for indymedia. Website of record!

Sean garland, sean garland, sean garland, etc.

author by charttopperpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 21:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

those garlands above were the 'tipping' point methinks

No ranking on google news since geraldine (or somebody) had a word in their shelllike about this:

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70979

author by Badmanpublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 22:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Number 1 for Seán Garland.

Number 4 for Sean Garland.

One day little children will know nothing about the man but the indymedia history of sean garland.

Frightening.

author by barrypublication date Tue Oct 11, 2005 23:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

imagine if an obituary from Harris was all they knew . Even more frightening .

author by chollimapublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 01:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This explains a lot.

I had the "pleasure" to visit the DPRK back a few years ago and was given the (compulsory) guided tour of the International Friendship Exhibition which was basically 2 huge museums full of gifts presented to both Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il from various charachters around the world including Stalin, Gadaffi, Pol Pot etc (Arthur Scargill was another prolific donator by the way!)

But in the Irish cabinet there was a heck of a lot of Waterford glassware and bronze statues donated by both Thomas McGiolla and Sean Garland. Sort of looked like the junk your granny would keep in the corner cabinet.

Nice!

So did they pay for these presents with cash then....

author by IT readerpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

(ppv article)
By Seán O'Driscoll in New York
12/10/2005

US federal prosecutors are to seek the extradition of two Irish men and four others as alleged co-conspirators with Workers' Party president Seán Garland and the North Korean government in the manufacture of counterfeit $100 notes.

US authorities will be seeking the arrest of Mr Christopher Corcoran (57), Dublin, and Hugh Todd, an Irish citizen living in South Africa, who have been indicted this week for allegedly helping Mr Garland distribute sophisticated $100 bills, known as 'supernotes', to fund the Workers' Party and the Official IRA.

Mr Garland has strongly denied any wrongdoing and said the indictment is politically motivated.

The indictment names Mr Garland as the leader of the Official IRA, a claim he strongly denies, and claims that North Korean officials introduced counterfeit $100 notes to Ireland in the early 1990s and Mr Garland obtained more of them in Minsk, Belarus.

It says he traded in over $1 million using his Workers' Party position as a front, and that the accused and their associates carried the 'supernotes' between Britain and Ireland on the ferry, because ferry passengers did not undergo security checks.

Mr Garland is accused of going to great lengths to avoid being linked to the scheme.

He is also accused of using Official IRA members to run the operation. The US attorney's office in Washington, at the request of the US secret service, will also be seeking the extradition of five men: Russian national David Levin, also known as David Batikovitch Batikian or Gediminas Gotautas (39), of Birmingham and London; Hugh Todd (68), an Irish and South African citizen living in South Africa and also known by the names FB Rawling and Peter Clark; and three British men: Terence Silcock (50), Mark Adderley (47), and Alan Jones (48), from Birmingham.

The three UK accused were "long-time acquaintances" the indictment says. The indictment lists over 30 trips made by the seven accused to Ireland, Britain, Russia and elsewhere to obtain the counterfeit currency, including over 15 trips made by Mr Silcock on the Britain to Ireland ferry with bag loads of counterfeit money.

In one conversation with two potential counterfeit buyers in July 1999, Mr Silcock and Mr Jones are alleged to have said that Mr Garland was the "colonel in chief" of "the old-style IRA" and that all profit "goes back into the organisation". Mr Corcoran is also accused of making a similar boast.

Mr Garland (71), was released on bail after he was arrested last Friday at the Workers' Party Ardfheis in Belfast on foot of a US extradition warrant.

The indictment claims that Mr Corcoran "has long been associated with Seán Garland and had established a business relationship with defendant Terence Silcock". The US attorney's office claims Mr Garland "operated a years-long scheme" to "obtain, transport, sell, and pass as genuine, counterfeit $100 United States Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs), sometimes referred to as 'supernotes'."

Mr James Church, the secret service agent in charge of the investigation said the prosecution "is one of the most significant related to the 16-year long investigation into the distribution of this family of highly deceptive counterfeit US currency notes".

© The Irish Times

Related Link: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/1012/1332661570HM10USGARLAND.html
author by pat cpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"imagine if an obituary from Harris was all they knew . Even more frightening ."

Actually I think Harris would shaft Garland in an obituary. Garland shafted Harris in the 1990 WP split. Harris produced a document, "The Necessity For Social Democracy". Trying to hand down a new line from above. He tried to move too far too fast. DeRossa & co who agreed with a lot of it didnt back him up. Garland & company used this as an excuse to move against Harris and Eamon Smullen a party fulltimer who was sacked.

This resulted in a small scale split at the 1990 WP Conference when Harris, Oliver Donohoe, Gerry Gregg , Brick and others from the WP Industrial Faction left. Brick who was WP Vice President spectacularly resigned on stage.

author by Barrypublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 13:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I was aware there had indeed ben a fall out about the DL thing but wasnt totally up to speed on the details . Was out of the country when all that happened .

Has Harris made any comment on the latest developments , or is he sweating nervously ?

author by historianpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 13:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Long-standing hatred of one another going back to the 70s when Garland was opposed to Harris been taken on as Goulding's new intellectual guru.

author by Damienpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 13:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

...he probably did it

author by Barrypublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 13:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

you wouldnt put it past him

author by wicked watsonpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 13:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Where did the paper used by whoever forged PN 14342 come from ???
Was it stolen?
was it bought?
or did it just fall off the back of a chinook?

author by pat cpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 14:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Heres a short piece on the 1992 WP split. I remember at the time Joe Sherlock accused (at the WP Conference) Sean Garland of having a private army in the OIRA.

"In 1992, long-standing tensions within the Workers Party pitting reformers, including most of the party's Teachtaí Dála (members of Dáil Éireann), against hardliners centred around party general secretary Seán Garland came to a head. Disagreements on policy issues were exacerbated by the desire of the reformers to change the democratic centralist nature of the party structures and remove any remaining questions about party links with the Official IRA, a topic which had been the subject of persistent and embarrassing media coverage. The reformers called a party congress to debate changes to the constitution. When they failed by a narrow margin to reach the required two-thirds majority, De Rossa led them out of the congress, splitting the party.


Democratic Left
De Rossa and the other former Workers Party members then established a new political party, provisionally called New Agenda. At its founding conference in March 1992 it was named Democratic Left and De Rossa was elected party leader. Later that year, he resigned his European Parliament seat in favour of Democratic Left general secretary Des Geraghty."

Related Link: http://www.answers.com/topic/proinsias-de-rossa
author by hmmmpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 14:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Isn't it wonderful how the youngsters are learning about the past. As we all wait to hear who sold the axis of evil the paper and set this whole thing up.

anyway Who was Goulding?
for he hath no wikipedia biography either.

author by agcspublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 15:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I've seen the the bungalow in Navan mentioned earlier ;it is by no means a modest one . Sean may not have come across to John O'Neil as someone with money (he was never fond of splashing it around) but that doesn't mean he's short for a few bob. £30,000 wouldn't be much for him.
The point I'm making is that Sean's final throw of the dice might be to come south and claim political status .Such a move could be very beneficial for the various agencies in Ireland, Britain , America , Colombia etc that would like to see Ireland's extradition laws altered .
I'm not saying this is going to happen ,but just in case ...........

author by StalinWatchpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 15:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Cathal Goulding (1927-1998)
—by Míchealín Ní Dhochartaigh
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cathal Goulding was born and educated in Dublin. He came from a staunchly republican family. His grandfather was a Fenian and his father participated in the 1916 Rising. Cathal joined the IRA in 1939, and helped reorganise it.
In 1945, Goulding was arrested by the Irish Special Branch and imprisoned for a year in the Curragh Internment Camp. After his release, Goulding conducted IRA training camps in the Dublin mountains.

In 1953, Goulding, along with Sean MacStiofáin and Maurice Canning, took part in an arms raid on a British Army Base in Essex. All three were arrested and sentenced to eight years. This time, Goulding was released in 1958. Within a year he became Quarter Master General of the IRA and in 1962 became Chief of Staff, a position he held until 1969 — when he became a founding member of the Official IRA (OIRA), which attempted to move the group away from military confrontation.

Ironically, one of the most vocal condemnations of Goulding's willingness to compromise came from Gerry "Armani" Adams!

When the split occurred, the OIRA, or “Stickies” as they became known, and the Provisionals both claimed the title Óglaigh Na hÉireann when carrying out acts of war or the releasing press statements [as the RIRA and CIRA do now].

Heading OIRA along with Goulding was Joe Mc Cann. Séan MacStiofain became Chief of staff of the Reorganised IRA led by the "Provisional" Army Council in 1969/70. [See "A Brief History of the IRA"]

The OIRA is believed to be still in existence, though small in number. The alleged connections between the OIRA and the Workers' Party (WP) in early 1992 led to a split in the WP and the formation of the Democratic Left.

Cathal Goulding died of cancer on 28th December 1998, at age 75. He was buried in Glasnevin cemetery.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There Must be a Fight

Goulding's speech 'There Must be a Fight' was delivered at Drogheda on 15th August 1965, and was first printed in United Irishman in September of that year.

"The men whom we honour here today died for a cause which promised a glorious future. I think that it is appropriate that I, a man who has been reared in a period since their deaths, the period of their future, should deliver this oration. Some of the men whom we honour died at the hands of the Black and Tans. Two of them, Tommy Halpin and Sean Moran died at this spot. All died so that Ireland might be Gaelic and Free. All died for a future, a glorious future. A future in which Ireland would be governed by Irishmen, owned by Irishmen, an Ireland which would cherish her children equally, which would spread her wealth equally among all her children, an Ireland the charter of which would be the dictum of the Proclamation of Easter Week. They died for a future, for a glorious future, the children of that future, for you and me, for your children and mine, so that we might have our country for ourselves, be kings of our own castle, so that we could enjoy the fruits of our own land, that we might have independence, live in peace and comfort, hold our heads in honour and that Ireland our country could take her place among the nations of the earth.

"The future for which they died would be a glorious one indeed. That future has come and gone, but the glory, the truth and the honour have been missing from it. Their dreams, hopes, objectives are unattained, but their fight has been carried on, their battle cry of freedom taken up. This town of Drogheda, of all Irish towns, has been witness to the continuation of the fight. Some of the finest of your manhood have participated in that fight right up to the present day. You, in this town, have seen some of your best men behind prison bars in the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's.

"You have seen the remains of Ritchie Goss [executed by hanging in Portlaoise Prison on 9th August 1941] pass through this town on the way to his final resting place in Dundalk. He carried on the fight of the men whom we honour today. He fought for that glorious future, he made the supreme sacrifice. You in this town have seen the remains of Tommy Harte [executed by hanging in Mountjoy Gaol on 6th September 1940] and Sean McCaughey [died on hunger-strike on 11th May 1946 in Portlaoise Prison] being borne to their final resting places. You too have seen the remains of Sean South [killed on active service on 1st January 1957] and Keegan go southwards on their way to Wexford. You have seen evidence that some have paid more than lip service to the ideals of those honoured. You should know their fight will be continued, continued to the end, continued till Irish freedom has been won, continued till that glorious future for which they died has been achieved.

"The belief is still held today that the only way to rid this country of an armed British force is to confront them with an armed force of Irishmen backed by a united Irish people. There will and must be a fight. We only have to look around to see that we will have to fight on the military front, the social front, the economic front and the cultural front. It is unnecessary for me to dwell on the state of our language, our music and our dancing in Ireland today. Official attitudes to our culture can be seen in the amount of attention paid to it in our mass communication media. It is our task to give our language, our music and our games an honoured place among our objectives in the struggle for full independence. The battle on the economic front is second only in importance to the battle on the military front.

"It has been made manifest in the past few weeks that all our country has been sold. We are told by our leader we are in an economic mess, that this is our own making and that we must suffer the consequences.

"The bubble has burst. The handing out of millions of pounds of our money to foreign capitalists has had tragic results. The sell-out has come to a head. Our people were bluffed into believing that this foreign invitation was our salvation, so great a means that they stood by and watched millions being poured down the drain in grants and subsidies to these same foreigners.

"Too well do you know the closure of many of these foreign concerns, too often have you heard of the manna which was to come from England, from France, Germany, Belgium, Japan and America. Now you are told that you have taken too much of this manna. Now you are told that the cause of your downfall was the paltry increases in the wages of the ordinary working man. Nothing is being said of the millions being poured into the pockets of the foreign industrialists.

"Now you are being kept hanging on a string in the hope of charity from Downing Street. We know what kind of charity we can expect from Downing Street. We are going to have to pay a price for even that kind of charity. What is it going to be? You will not be consulted. Those whom you have elected to represent you in Leinster House will not be consulted. No one knows what is going on. But even at this stage it can be seen that our small farmers are going to be sacrificed, that the form of independence that has been won in part of our country is going to be sacrificed. This is the price the politicians of our land are going to pay. You have not been told for what. Is it going to benefit you, is this sell-out going to be of benefit to the poor of the land? If benefits are going to be gained we can rest assured that they will be to the advantage of the privileged class only. I said there would have to be a battle on the economic front, I should have said that the battle on this front has started.

"A man called Father McDyer started the battle some years ago, he proved that by co-operating with one another we can not alone survive but prosper. Now, the co-operative and Credit Union movements are the centre of economic resistance to the foreign sell-out. It is clear that those that govern us have shown nothing but opposition to this movement. Is it because they believe it is not the economic solution to our ills or is it because they see the end result as the ordinary people of this country owning its wealth and sharing it equally?

"Is the fear of our rulers that all will have a certain measure of prosperity instead of the present position in which the privileged live in luxury and the majority live in poverty? Whether they like it or not the battle is on, economic resistance is in progress. The success or failure of this movement relies on the ordinary people. It is up to the worker, the small farmer, the fisherman and the housewife to fight in this campaign. It is up to us to break the grip of the foreign financier, the foreign capitalist (and the Irish ones too), the hire purchase companies, and the profiteers on the economy of our land. It is up to us to see that our money is put to work in our own country and for our benefit. It is up to us to see that our country does not become a playground for the rich foreigners, a land in which we are trespassers in what is rightly our own, a land in which we are poachers of what belongs to us, a land of shoneens and slaves. The men whom we honour did not die for such a land, we owe it to them and to ourselves, that it does not become so.

"Of all the ideals for which Irishmen have fought and died, none has been greater, none has been of more importance to them, none has been nobler than the guarantee enshrined in the Proclamation of Easter Week — Equal Right and Equal Opportunities for all the children of the nation. Are Equal Rights and Equal Opportunities available to all the children of this country? Are they available to the children of any part of this country? Do the opportunities available to a child in this country depend on the abilities which God has given that child or do the opportunities which he gets depend on how much money his father has? Well do you and I know that the latter is so. Well do you know that there is one law for the rich and one law for the poor. To bring about a position in which equality of opportunity can be guaranteed we must have independence. We will have to fight for that independence on the fronts we have mentioned, we will have to unite our people and united we will have to rid our country of the last vestige of British influence.

"In the Ireland of today with all those tea parties, charity balls and big shot entertainment’s we tend to forget that part of our country is occupied by an armed force of British soldiers. The majority of us tend to accept it as inevitable that they remain there but there are some, there have always been some to whom the kernel of the whole national problem lies in the military occupation. The men whom we honour here today believed that such was the case. The men in the '40's believed it. Sean South and the men of '56 believed it. The belief is still held today, the belief that the only way to rid this country of an armed British force is to confront them with an armed force of Irishmen backed by an united Irish people.

"The British forces in the six counties will be confronted by such a force. It is inevitable that they will be. This military camp combined with the economic resistance camp can be successful. It will be successful if we unite and fight for it."

Related Link: http://irelandsown.net/goulding.html
author by John O'Neillpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 16:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

was called the Bouganvilla (maybe not the proper spelling) I believe its no longer in business - could be due to the cheap offers?

author by pat cpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 16:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Heres an obituary for Cathal Goulding.

**********************************
Ex-IRA chief of staff and socialist politician dies


By DAIRE BOYLE
CATHAL Goulding, former Chief of Staff of the IRA and one of the key figures in what was to become the Workers' Party following a split within the Republican movement, died on St Stephen's Day in St James Hospital, aged 76.

A friend of Brendan Behan, he joined Fianna Eireann as a teenager in the 1930s and in 1945 was involved in trying to reactivate the IRA in Dublin.

During the late 1940s he was involved in running an IRA training camp in the Wicklow Mountains. In 1953 he joined two other young republicans in a raid on a British Army training base in Essex. They were quickly apprehended and, as a result, sentenced to eight years in jail.

It was Goulding's second period in jail and, following his release, he joined the IRA Army Council and in 1959 became Quarter Master General. In 1961 he was appointed IRA Chief of Staff.

During the 1960s Goulding espoused an increasingly Marxist view of politics which, at the time of the civil rights marches and one-man-one-vote campaign in Northern Ireland, attracted left wing support for the Republican movement.

However, with the outbreak of violence in Northern Ireland in 1969 and the activities of the B Specials, there emerged many within the Republican movement who believed more traditional military activities offered the best hope of achieving a united Ireland.

The split between what became known as the Official IRA and the breakaway Provisional movement was as much tactical as it was political. Whereas Goulding favoured a revolutionary Marxist outlook for the Republican movement, as much centred on the aim of establishing a united, socialist Irish 32-county Republic, the Provisionals concentrated on what was essentially a `Brits Out' campaign.

During the 1970s and 1980s there were further splits as the Official Republican movement split into Republican Clubs, the Workers' Party, the Irish Republican Socialist Party and their military wing, the INLA.

In 1971, following a graveside oration for a dead Official member, Goulding was charged with incitement to cause explosions or shoot people. He was acquitted.

In May 1972 following pressure from its political wing and what was to become the Workers' Party, the Official IRA called a ceasefire.

There followed a period when the Workers' Party was trying to establish itself as a bona fide democratic political party while, within Northern Ireland, the Official IRA was still involved in violence and racketeering.

Goulding, for his part, became increasingly critical of the Provisional IRA, arguing that a purely military campaign was doomed to failure.

In 1992 the Workers' Party again split, six of its Dail deputies leaving to form Democratic Left. Despite ill-health, Goulding remained active in the increasingly marginalised Workers' Party.

In 1950 he had married Patty Germaine and they had a son, Cathal Og. They separated and he later had a son Paudge by Brendan Behan's wife, Beatrice. He subsequently had two further sons, Aodhgan and Banban, by Dr Moira Woods with whom he lived from 1971.

He would have been 77 next Saturday. His funeral takes place on Thursday.

Related Link: http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=584652&issue_id=5900
author by Dr Deathpublication date Wed Oct 12, 2005 17:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Someone's writing a book about the stickies at the moment. He promised it wouldn't be out before the next general election (otherwise the Labour sticks wouldn't have agreed to talk) so there'll be plenty of time to update the book with this little footnote.

author by Please get in contactpublication date Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'd be very interested in talking to the author of the book as I've plenty of information relating to WP activities in East Germany and its relations with the SED. This is not a wind up.

author by Dr. Life - Boys of the Old Brigadepublication date Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It is my information that the book is being written by 2 people. I doubt if promises were made to labour or anyone else.

author by StalinWatchpublication date Thu Oct 13, 2005 17:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'According to a statement from the US Justice Department, the indictment "describes the efforts of Garland and certain of his associates, between December 1997 and July 2000, to obtain quantities of the counterfeit notes from North Korean sources and to transport, and to either pass as genuine or resell, the Supernotes in the United Kingdom and elsewhere". '

More at the URL.

Related Link: http://www.nkzone.org/nkzone/
author by donaldpublication date Thu Oct 13, 2005 18:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9530.htm
Treaty gives CIA powers over Irish citizens
By Dan Buckley

07/21/05 "Irish Examiner" - - US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA
agents, will be allowed to interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil
in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the
US last week.

Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be
searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a
crime in Ireland.

Under 'instruments of agreement' signed last week by Justice
Minister Michael McDowell, Ireland and the US pledged mutual
co-operation in the investigation of criminal activity. It is
primarily designed to assist America's so-called 'war on terror' in
the wake of the September 11 atrocities.

author by Dr Deathpublication date Fri Oct 14, 2005 15:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

One of the authors is a journalist called Scott Millar, think he writes for the Sunday Times if you want to contact him

author by Mike Ryan - Individualpublication date Fri Oct 14, 2005 17:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I personally am very disturbed at the thought of ANY Irish citizen being extradited to the US to face charges from the CIA. Firstly the CIA is an organisation that uses lies to fullfill it's agendas. Covert operations and spy missions are by their very nature all about deception. So put the CIAs reputation together with the US' current poor reputation in relation to human rights (Guantanamo anyone?) and you get a pretty disturbing picture: An organisation that works via deception levelling charges at a foreign citizen in a country by now famous for human right abuses. I feel there is some sort of agenda here against Mr Garland and I feel that he should face any charges being levelled against him here in Ireland where he stands a better chance of having a fair and unbiased hearing.

author by Cynicpublication date Fri Oct 14, 2005 18:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If Sean Garland was tried in either the North or South of Ireland it would be before a non-jury court. Not much chance of him getting off. Ironic when you consider that up till last Friday Sean Garland was supporting the use of Special Courts against "Terrorists".

author by Cynicpublication date Fri Oct 14, 2005 18:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This from the US DOJ site. Much more at the url below.

"PRESS RELEASE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
For Information, Contact Public Affairs
Saturday, October 8, 2005 Channing Phillips (202) 514-6933


Leader of Irish Workers' Party and Official Irish Republican Army
Arrested in United Kingdom on U.S. Indictment
Charging Trafficking in Counterfeit United States Currency

Washington, D.C. - United States Attorney Kenneth L. Wainstein and Special Agent in Charge James B. Burch, United States Secret Service, Washington Field Office, announced today that Irish Workers' Party leader Sean Garland, 71, was arrested late Friday, October 7, 2005, in Northern Ireland on a provisional arrest warrant requested by the United States, based on charges pending in the District of Columbia that Garland operated a years-long scheme to obtain, transport, sell, and pass as genuine, highly deceptive counterfeit $100 United States Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs), sometimes referred to as "Supernotes." Garland, of Dublin, Republic of Ireland, was charged together with six other conspirators in an Indictment returned by a Federal Grand Jury in the District of Columbia on May 19, 2005; the Indictment was unsealed upon Garland's arrest. "

Related Link: http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/dc/Press_Releases/2005_Archives/Oct_2005/05370.html
author by Cahalpublication date Sun Oct 16, 2005 18:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The WP produced a pamphlet on Cahal Goulding if anyone is interested in knowing more about him.

author by Mary Kellypublication date Sun Oct 16, 2005 22:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This is an ideal opportunity for the WP to pioneer a ferocious campaign to break the deepening control the US has over Irish citizens and residents.

Reading about Mr Garland's lack of support for the hunger strikers is not inspiring!

However, the CIA and FBI are part of a terrorising and out of control US administration that must be stood up to, challenged and delivered to the International Criminal Court.

Time for the best legal people to act speedily.

author by Not Observer2publication date Mon Oct 17, 2005 14:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

why should this criminal be defended?
what exactly is the difference between the organs of state of the U.S and North Korea?
oh thats i, in the U.S you get to vote.

wise up mary, garland and his cronies have got away with too much for too long!!!! maybe you could take an axe to their hq? or is just americans you are against?

or do you support the north korean regime?

author by charles Pimplepublication date Sun Oct 30, 2005 02:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You never know who you’re related to
24/10/2005
The Monday Column
By Roy GARLAND

IN the 1950s my dad told me there was an IRA man who bore our surname. This was Dublin born Sean Garland who became president of the Workers Party and was arrested at their party conference to face possible extradition to the USA on charges related to counterfeiting – which he denies.

I first saw Sean Garland during the 1960s when I went to a rally in Milltown Cemetery on the Falls Road. As a fairly militant unionist standing at the edge of the crowd I felt uneasy and began thinking, “What if they sing the Soldier’s Song?” I foolishly thought I could not honour the Irish National Anthem and imagined taking to my heels but then I wisely moved on.

Later while working in a store in Aberdeen Street on the Shankill I noticed a republican newspaper – United Irishman – had blown in and was lying at my feet. My eyes fell on the name Sean Garland and the speech he gave at a Wolfe Tone Rally at Bodenstown in June 1968. This confirmed the IRA’s move to the left and Sean Garland’s efforts to initiate change. A few years later he helped bring about the Official IRA’s ceasefire but in the article Sean said “no longer would the army of the Irish revolution stand idly by”. This seemed ominous but it is said, Sean was reassuring the faithful while trying to take the gun out of Irish politics. In the 1990s I contacted him through the Workers Party in Dublin hoping to discuss family history. He knew little beyond the fact that his family hailed from near Dublin. However both families appear to stem from a certain Roger Garland/Gernon who came from Essex with Strongbow in the 12th century and settled mainly near Dundalk.

During the conversation Sean spoke about his time in Belfast’s Crumlin Road Prison in the 1950s. On Sunday afternoons he would listen to evangelical mission choirs singing hymns. This was a means of getting a break from prison routine but he was deeply impressed by these people. They gave their time freely and while observing their demeanour Sean was struck by their sincerity. Something about them challenged him deeply, “they were so committed to what they were doing” he realised the Irish problem was not a “simplistic question of freeing territory”.

He went on to question many things, to digest new ideas and was influenced by Cathal Goulding, the IRA’s radical chief of staff in Dublin.

Some years later I met Sean again this time at Castlebellingham – in Irish Baile anGhearlanaigh – Garlandstown. There his wife Mary shared vivid memories of a day in 1975 when he was nearly taken from her by extreme left nationalists. I could almost feel the pain her story was so vivid. It was as if it had only happened yesterday.

Walking home they noticed men loitering near their home and Sean began to run. It was too late, he was hit in the leg and as he lay on the ground they pumped 15 bullets into his arms, legs and abdomen. Mary was literally knocked against a wall and then ran forward screaming at Sean’s attackers. He managed to whisper to her, “get word to Cathal and the others” knowing there would be further attacks. When the Garda arrived they wanted to interview Mary right away but she demanded they take Sean to hospital first. There Sean’s health deteriorated as he underwent major surgery. When he regained consciousness he noticed there was nothing in a vital tube going into his body. There was no one available to help and so, despite his weakened condition, he managed to free up the drip himself and save his own life. Sean Garland survived and with others who believed in Wolfe Tone’s message about replacing Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter with the common name of Irishman, he rejected narrow nationalism, supported peace-making and encouraged others to move towards socialist politics. Attempts were made to influence loyalists and although there was no meeting of minds, some were attracted by non-sectarianism and the willingness to put working class interests before the holy grail of Irish nationalism. Other lessons were learned and Sean Garland and his Workers Party helped to humanise nationalists and to move people beyond the morass of a deeply flawed sectarian conflict.

author by Justin Morahan - Peace People (ind)publication date Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

for Seán Garland or anyone else to the USA.

author by J O'Haganpublication date Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:03author email justinohagan at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Outstanding U.S. Marxist writer, James Petras, has written this in support of Sean Garland:

Dear comrade
I am sending you this message of solidarity and support of Sean’s defense,and my repudiation of Washington's attempt to silence an outstanding leader of the united Irish working class
Fraternally
James Petras

Petras' webpage is

Related Link: http://www.rebelion.org/mostrar.php?tipo=1&id=62
author by Cynicpublication date Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"an outstanding leader of the united Irish working class"

How little Petras knows about Ireland. The WP are a tiny Stalinist sect. The only place they get any sort of real vote is in Waterford City and SF have eaten into that.

author by Billy Williamson - Nonepublication date Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The WorkersParty has got to be bigger than the tiny sectarian sect you come from Cynic

author by Cynicpublication date Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think not. I am a member of Sinn Fein which has a larger membership and greater support than the WP ever had. Its good to see that you have removed Dessie O'Hagans diatribe from the Sean Garland defence campaign site. Its difficult to expect SF to support you when you accuse them of being NeoFascists.

Glad to see that you are now happy to accept SF support for Sean Garland.

author by Billy Williamsonpublication date Wed Jan 04, 2006 16:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

OK. I'll give you SF is bigger, but you get treble score on sectarian. SF is probably more like an inter-war, Catholic, fascist party than neo-fascist.

author by Cynicpublication date Wed Jan 04, 2006 20:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If SF is a Fascist party then why are the WP happy to get their support? SFs opposition to the extradition of SF seems to be important to the WP, important enough for them to mention it on the Sean Garland Website. If you really believe SF is a Fascist party then you should ask the WP not to accept SF support for their Sean Garland Campaign

author by Fishandchipocrytpublication date Wed Jan 04, 2006 20:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

on that. If the Workers Party really think that Sinn Fein are fascists, why on earth would they accept their support and advertise it? Sinn Fein are a communal, sectarian party, about as socially radical as the early Fianna Fail but fascist? Come off it.

author by Harry Dpublication date Thu Jan 19, 2006 17:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Try living in West Belfast after telling the local Provo to get stuffed. You'll get a quick demonstartion of 21st Century practical fascism.

author by pat cpublication date Thu Jan 19, 2006 17:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i dont like the hegemony that the provos have in west belfast but they have the support of over 70% of the electorate.

now the wp are a tiny group in west belfast but they still have plenty of thugs. try telling a stick to get stuffed in west belfast and you certainly will get stuffed if not stiffed yourself. (unless of corse you are a provo or well got with the provos).

author by Harry Dpublication date Sat Jan 21, 2006 22:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Adolf Hitler got an 89% vote in the 1935 referendum.

author by roosterpublication date Mon Jan 23, 2006 00:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

pat c talking about people being stiffed as if its completely normal and the nazis being portrayed as being democratic.

author by pat cpublication date Mon Jan 23, 2006 13:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

harry

the 89% vote was achieved in a fascist state whwre there was no opposition allowed. its about as credible as the 100% votes for Kim in N Korea.

Rooster

I was merely pointing out that the WP/OIRA in West Belfast are not a bunch of social workers.

author by stickpublication date Mon Jan 23, 2006 13:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As you have so much time on your hands perhaps you could put up a chart listing the alleged punishment beatings of the OIRA and also list the Provo/ INLA beatings then we could all se who the real oppressors are.

PIRA would win hands down. You might also be interested in an article on "the blanket" entitled CRJ — New Name for the IRA?

We can`t have local warlords being turned into local law lords
- SDLP leader, Mark Durkan

Anthony McIntyre • Parliamentary Brief, December 2005

With the wags chirping that ten out of every nine people no longer believe a word uttered by Sinn Fein, the party is managing to unite against itself an array of normally disparate tendencies, long frustrated with its endless procrastination and self-serving elongation of the peace process. In recent months this opposition has coalesced around concerns over the function of Community Restorative Justice (CRJ) schemes that operate in many of Northern Ireland's deprived areas. It voices grave reservations, less about CRJ as a theoretical concept but rather about its practical working out on the streets and the standards of accountability that it is held to.

in full at http://lark.phoblacht.net/am2312057g.html

Related Link: http://lark.phoblacht.net/am2312057g.html
author by pat cpublication date Mon Jan 23, 2006 13:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

are you denying that WP/OIRA are a criminal organisation who run protection rackets and operate drinking clubs?

author by stickpublication date Mon Jan 23, 2006 14:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Who is a criminal? Who is a terrorist?

If you are stating that OIRA are criminals you have to explain what you mean by 'criminal'. Whatever they have done or have been accused of doing has to be put in the context of the society they operated in. Large areas of NI were unpoliced, paramilitaries operated with impunity. The law of the gun was the only law. To exist was only possible through physical force - the ability to defend yourself.

The OIRA didn't create this reality. Let those who haven't sinned cast the first stone........

You have never criticised the PIRA for 'criminality' or the INLA yet I doubt that anything done or alleged done by OIRA has not been done a hundred times more by both the PIRA, RIRA, CIRA, INLA.

You reckon its ok for the Provos to shoot sticks beat them, kidnap them, whatever but when the OIRA do the same its criminality.

author by pat cpublication date Mon Jan 23, 2006 18:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Who is a criminal? Who is a terrorist?

If you are stating that OIRA are criminals you have to explain what you mean by 'criminal'. "

i mean the OIRA is a purely criminal organisation. when the OIRA attacks someone it is because that person has got in the way of their criminal enterprises.


"You have never criticised the PIRA for 'criminality' or the INLA yet I doubt that anything done or alleged done by OIRA has not been done a hundred times more by both the PIRA, RIRA, CIRA, INLA."

i dont know. the above groups didnt divide up territory with the UVF & UDA to run the various rackets. the OIRA did.

"You reckon its ok for the Provos to shoot sticks beat them, kidnap them, whatever but when the OIRA do the same its criminality."

i believe that it was ok for republicans to defend themselves against attack from a counter-gang which was operating with the permission of the british state. i condemvn those stickie attacks.

just as i condemn pira attacks on the RIRA and CIRA. yes i am prepared to criticise SF. i'm not happy with the direction in which it is moving.

if you think the provos are such a nasty bunch then why are you so anxious to get their support for sean Garland?

i agree with a lot of of mcintyres criticisms of the provos. but i really think it is ironic that you should be using him to back up your argument. hes a republican, who while he doesnt believe in using the armed struggle anymore also believes that the CIRA & RIRA prisoners are POWs.

nor would he agree with the WPS ideal of North Korea as a Workers Paradise. N Korea is not a socialist state. what exists there is no different from fascism.

author by stickpublication date Mon Jan 23, 2006 22:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Whadabout PIRAs Libyan pals. Bastion of Democracy that place is/was when they had their 1970/80s love in and long before the squeaky clean NewSF came into being.

FARC? .

And their daily church going, anti trade union, rabid anti leftist American friends that host $ 1,000 dinners for SF. Anyone that can afford a $1,000 dinner for anything is either up to their necks in exploiting the US working class or possibly..........criminals. Either way their not my class of people

Pat answer me this

whats the difference?

OIRA declared a ceasefire - so did the provo's

However OIRA never collaborated with the Brits - New SF does on a regular basis and has been doing to a greater or lesser extent since the ceasefire in the 1970s - read some books. As for dividing up territory with the UVF & UDA to run the various rackets - cite some evidence please. You dont know what you are talking about in the mid 1970's the Provos initiated a feud with the OIRA, republican club members and their families. But thats ok for you because they were a 'counter gang' again some reputable evidence would be nice.

OIRA stated in the 1970s there was no military solution to a political crisis. SF came to that conclusion 25 years later.

I respect and have empathy with provo volunteers who fought and died during those 25 years, however I have no respect for you who never lifted a finger but to sprout provo platitudes from the sidelines. You disagree with the 'current trajectory of the Provos' so why dont you take to the north and have a go at the forces of occupation? Cause you may talk the talk but never walk the walk.

To any unbiased republican observer the biggest betrayal of republicanism and act of trechery would be handing over weapons or destroying them (according to the PIRA green book) participating in a stormont government - Sticks are guilty of neither. Are the provos now a counter gang? Haven't they shot and murdered some CIRA members?

There has to be some reason for your irrational hatred for the OIRA I can only assume you got a smack in the gub at one stage or another.

Good enough for ya!

author by pat cpublication date Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Whadabout PIRAs Libyan pals. Bastion of Democracy that place is/was when they had their 1970/80s love in and long before the squeaky clean NewSF came into being. "

i dont believe that 2 million people have died in libya from famine. libya is not a democracy but its a much nicer oplace to live than N Korea.

"FARC? . "

FARC are a revolutionary organisation fighting against a proto fascist government which uses deathsquads. i thought yiu would agree with me on that.

"And their daily church going, anti trade union, rabid anti leftist American friends that host $ 1,000 dinners for SF. Anyone that can afford a $1,000 dinner for anything is either up to their necks in exploiting the US working class or possibly..........criminals. Either way their not my class of people"

thats exactly what i dont like about SF, that its appealing to those kind of people.


"OIRA declared a ceasefire - so did the provo's

However OIRA never collaborated with the Brits -"

barry and others have already dealt with this how OIRA members provided intelligence to the brits etc. you wouldnt even support political status for the hungerstrikers. you still had your pOWs at that stage.


"New SF does on a regular basis and has been doing to a greater or lesser extent since the ceasefire in the 1970s - read some books."

i have, even those by your own former ideologues (such as henry patterson) tell a grim tale about the OIRA.

" As for dividing up territory with the UVF & UDA to run the various rackets - cite some evidence please. You dont know what you are talking about "

ah, the truth hurts.

"in the mid 1970's the Provos initiated a feud with the OIRA, republican club members and their families. But thats ok for you because they were a 'counter gang' again some reputable evidence would be nice. "

barry has also dealt with this pointing out that the provos were reacting to extreme provocation.

"OIRA stated in the 1970s there was no military solution to a political crisis. SF came to that conclusion 25 years later. "

why did the oira continue killing people then?

"I respect and have empathy with provo volunteers who fought and died during those 25 years, "

so what did you do to fight for political status for those volunteers?

"however I have no respect for you who never lifted a finger but to sprout provo platitudes from the sidelines. "

yes i have i have always campaigned against extradition and in favour of political starus. dont forget, you lot opposed POW status and supported extradition.

"You disagree with the 'current trajectory of the Provos' so why dont you take to the north and have a go at the forces of occupation? Cause you may talk the talk but never walk the walk."

now you are just being silly, i have made it clear that i think the campaigns of the RIRA & CIRA are futile, but while you call the RIRA & CIRA prisoners fsccists, I regard them as POWs. you can be opposed to SFs direction without wanting to see a return to war.

"To any unbiased republican observer the biggest betrayal of republicanism and act of trechery would be handing over weapons or destroying them (according to the PIRA green book) participating in a stormont government - Sticks are guilty of neither. Are the provos now a counter gang?"

So why are the OIRA holding on to their guns? Other than for criminal purposes what do you intend to use them for? No i dont think the provos are a counter gang. they havent spent 30 yers aiding british imperialism.

The WP have wanted to participate in Stormont for decades. In the 1982 Assembly Elections in their election literature they made it clear that they wanted to go into coalition with the Ulster Unionists. The ungratteful electorate failed to elect any sticks though.



"Haven't they shot and murdered some CIRA members? "

not sure about cira, but they did kill a RIRA member which i condembed in my comment above.

"There has to be some reason for your irrational hatred for the OIRA I can only assume you got a smack in the gub at one stage or another."

nothing irrational about it, if you start looking for support for Sean Garland then some questions are going to be asked. If you respond in a hystreical manner to these questions then people will draw their own conclusions.

there is one reason though, i remember when Bobby Sands was on hungerstrile, i was leafletting a deom (might have been a tax demo or some other DCTU demo). Sean Garland said to me : "what is sands still alive?" and went off laughing.

no smack in the gob, i tend to get the revenge in first.

"Good enough for ya!"

well, see what you think of my reply.

author by stickpublication date Tue Jan 24, 2006 14:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"i dont believe that 2 million people have died in libya from famine. libya is not a democracy but its a much nicer oplace to live than N Korea."

Millions of people die in Africa every year of starvation are they better places than north Korea to live?

So you support the US campaign against NK? What about Saddam in Iraq you support that as well? Panama? the list could go on and on.

"FARC are a revolutionary organisation fighting against a proto fascist government which uses deathsquads. i thought yiu would agree with me on that."

FARC are involved in financing their campign with drug money. is that not criminal? What about ETA shooting post office workers?

"barry and others have already dealt with this how OIRA members provided intelligence to the brits etc. you wouldnt even support political status for the hungerstrikers. you still had your pOWs at that stage."

Where? I didnt see any concrete evidence of this. I'm sure SF, now inside the walls of the establishment would be able to dig up some concrete evidence to back up these fairy tales if there was any truth to them. So barry says its true, therefore it is true. A provo once told me that Adams was a sticky plant in the provo movement that must be true as well?

"i have, even those by your own former ideologues (such as henry patterson) tell a grim tale about the OIRA."

Patterson was a BICO member, along with other BICO members were allowed into the ORM, a disasterous mistake by the leadership. His knowledge of the OIRA would be almost less than yours.

As for dividing up territory with the UVF & UDA to run the various rackets - cite some evidence please. You dont know what you are talking about

"ah, the truth hurts"

ah, more provo fairy tales. Put some meat on these alligations.

"barry has also dealt with this pointing out that the provos were reacting to extreme provocation."

The "provocation" was having an alternative political outlook than the provos. One which is closer to the current Provo outlook, a fact you find hard to swallow, that, and having the audacity to exist in nationalist working class areas.

"why did the oira continue killing people then?"

Self defence is no offence

I respect and have empathy with provo volunteers who fought and died during those 25 years

"so what did you do to fight for political status for those volunteers?"

Nothing, the same as the provos did for Official prisoners in the 1970s or the same as SF are doing for CIRA/RIRA prisoners.

"yes i have i have always campaigned against extradition and in favour of political starus. dont forget, you lot opposed POW status and supported extradition."

I have never read any Official republican literature supporting extradition. I will admit we didn't campaign against it, that was wrong, but Im sure the PIRA didn't want our support anyway, they had enough problems with thew INLA trying to steal some of the limelight without the sticks getting in on the act.

"No i dont think the provos are a counter gang. they havent spent 30 yers aiding british imperialism."

But the sticks are by having a NewSF position 25 years earlier? Will the provos be a counter gang if the get involved in policing? - that won't be collaboration?

"not sure about cira, but they did kill a RIRA member which i condembed in my comment above."

So when the provos try to stifle the CIRA in Derry or the CIRA in Limerick because they want to continue the provo war, then they are not acting in the interests of British Imperialism. How do you justify these actions? and if you dont justify them then how do you explain them? Is it ok for the provos to attack republicans who want to continue the struggle in the exact same manner as the PIRA had done before the ceasefire? What do the provos have to do to be considered a counter gang in your eyes?

"there is one reason though, i remember when Bobby Sands was on hungerstrile, i was leafletting a deom (might have been a tax demo or some other DCTU demo). Sean Garland said to me : "what is sands still alive?" and went off laughing."

So what. When the INLA murdered Billy McMillan after a ceasefire had been brokered by a respected trade unionist, the trade unionist asked Costello why it had happened, Costello shrugged his sholders and replied something to the effect that "shit happens".

Pat you are the one verging on hysteria. You are clutching at straws, the reality is that the provos have dropped the old Provo politics and moved on to electorialism, in the process they have also dropped the idea of socialism, something the sticks knew they never really had much of a commitment to anyway. The sticks went through the same process but remained loyal to the idea of workers control of the means of production, distribution and wealth.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Jan 24, 2006 16:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Millions of people die in Africa every year of starvation are they better places than north Korea to live?"

what is your point N Korea is supposed to be a workers paradise according to the WP.

"So you support the US campaign against NK?"

I wont support the Us campaign, i think change must come from within. i would like to see the N Korean people rise up & overthrow the dictators.

" What about Saddam in Iraq you support that as well? Panama? "
No, No.

"the list could go on and on."

it could because its a typical stalinist red herring. Workers are enslaved in North Korea , You and the WP support the slavemasters.


"FARC are involved in financing their campign with drug money. is that not criminal?"

No. they take a tax from cocoa producers. The new President of Bolivia supports Cocoa farmers. Do you think he is a criminal?

" What about ETA shooting post office workers?"

If they are doing that then I would condemn it. Its not so long since the OIRA were robbing Post Offices. Actually the last RUC man to be killed by the OIRA was during a Post Office robbery.


"Where? I didnt see any concrete evidence of this. I'm sure SF, now inside the walls of the establishment would be able to dig up some concrete evidence to back up these fairy tales if there was any truth to them. So barry says its true, therefore it is true."

track it down yourself. theres a search engine

"A provo once told me that Adams was a sticky plant in the provo movement that must be true as well?"

well he could have been a deep plant. what do you reckon.

"Patterson was a BICO member, along with other BICO members were allowed into the ORM, a disasterous mistake by the leadership. His knowledge of the OIRA would be almost less than yours."

thats not what you said at the time when his books came out. they were lauded in the WP press. in particular : "The Dynamics of Irish Politics" and "The Politics of Illusion".


"ah, more provo fairy tales. Put some meat on these alligations."

i can only go on anecdotal evidence at the moment.

"The "provocation" was having an alternative political outlook than the provos. One which is closer to the current Provo outlook, a fact you find hard to swallow, that, and having the audacity to exist in nationalist working class areas."

the provocation was attacks on younger republicans. use the search engine for barrys comments.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Jan 24, 2006 17:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

""why did the oira continue killing people then?"

Self defence is no offence"

at least you admit the OIRA carried out killings.

"I respect and have empathy with provo volunteers who fought and died during those 25 years

"so what did you do to fight for political status for those volunteers?"

Nothing, the same as the provos did for Official prisoners in the 1970s or the same as SF are doing for CIRA/RIRA prisoners. "

so how was this showing respect and empathy for them?

"I have never read any Official republican literature supporting extradition. I will admit we didn't campaign against it, that was wrong, "

glad to see you think it was wrong. certainly members of the WP such as Harris publicly supported extradition.

"but Im sure the PIRA didn't want our support anyway, they had enough problems with thew INLA trying to steal some of the limelight without the sticks getting in on the act."

ah, it would have been useful to have TDs raising the issue.


""not sure about cira, but they did kill a RIRA member which i condembed in my comment above."

"So when the provos try to stifle the CIRA in Derry or the CIRA in Limerick because they want to continue the provo war, then they are not acting in the interests of British Imperialism. "

i cut some of your stuff there. i dont justify it, i condemn it if the provos killmembers of the cIRA or RIRA.



" Costello shrugged his sholders and replied something to the effect that "shit happens". "

yeah you're right. its not that important just a memory which sticks with me.

"Pat you are the one verging on hysteria. You are clutching at straws, the reality is that the provos have dropped the old Provo politics and moved on to electorialism, in the process they have also dropped the idea of socialism, "

i'm not the hysterical one. i dont think N Korea is a Workers Paradise. I'm not a provo press officer, i criticise them all the time. as i pointed out above, i am critical of them. i do tend to support them though when people try to rewrite history.


"something the sticks knew they never really had much of a commitment to anyway. The sticks went through the same process but remained loyal to the idea of workers control of the means of production, distribution and wealth."

through protection rackets and drinking clubs? is that the road to socialism? Supporting North Korea?

Dont make sick.

What made you think i took too long to reply? you may be important to yourself but i had other things to deal with before i got around to you.

author by pat cpublication date Tue Jan 24, 2006 17:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Stick

Dont forget that this storyline is a bout Sean Garland. Your time might be better spent if you gave reasons why he should be supported.

I have made it clear that I oppose his extradition to either the 6 Counties or the US. He wont get a fair trial. (Doesnt mean I think hes innocent,)

You could give us an update on the campaign and on Sean Garlands health.

author by stickpublication date Tue Jan 24, 2006 17:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Patc'RA

Pat c ran away

author by pat cpublication date Tue Jan 24, 2006 18:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i dont believe that comment was by stick. he develops his points at Throne-like length.

author by Harry Dpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The 1935 vote was a referendum. It is worth remembering that the Nazis were democratically elected in 1933 according to the electoral rules of the Weimar Republic. The purpose of German fascism, like other ones, was to confront and defeat communism. When the Provos were murdering Workers Party supporters in 1975 their US based newspaper had the headline "Provisional Alliance: Wedge against Communism".

author by pat cpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

at last you emerge from behind the mask and show yourself as a WP/OIRA supporter. How can the IRA bbe held responsible for newsletters produced by eccentric yankie supporters.

Still dont see what you are getting at re Germany. This was a refereendum which was held under a dictatorship, the results had no standing. This is the sort of example which would only be used by someone who accepts as credible the 100% votes that Cde Kim gets. As for Hitler democratically gaining power: wrong again. Hitler never won a majority in a democratic election. He was put into power with the support of conservative parties. That was the end of that.

If you are going to describe SF as fasccist you are really going to have to try harder. Where is there there strategy to destroy the Trade Union movement? The opposite. Are they out to scapegoat immigrants? The opposite. Are they out to restrict womens rights? The opposite.

Getting back to 1975: if the provos were murdring Sticks, then what were the sticks doing? They kiled 5 provos and the chairman of the Falls Road Taxi Association. It takes 2 to tango.

author by historianpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The only people ever to use the term "Provisional Alliance" were the Officials.

What you are claiming is the equivalent of a pro_OIRA paper running a headline: "Stickies lead the way to socialism". Pull the other one.

author by Willypublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 13:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Famines are usually caused by bad weather. The nutty leadership of the DPRk Lil Kim although thought by his worshippers to have godlike powers i doubt this is true. If he did it would in his interest to create a bumper harvest not a famine. As for all this stuff about bank jobs. I dont have a wonderful memory but im sure the Provoes were believed to have nabbed 25 million in the biggest heist in ireland, Pat can surf and get further details. I believe that this was not the first robbery they committed. This discussion made me think about republican blagging.
the following republican groups have been blamed or found guilty of robbing banks; IRA in the civil war, IRA post split, OIRA, PIRA, Saoir Eire, INLA, INLA GHQ, CIRA, RIRA. It seems to me that the only republican group that didnt rob banks was the IPLO but they were busy with the drug trade.

Says plenty about republicanism.

author by pat cpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 14:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

willy is of course correct. bank robbing is a pursuit engaged in by all republican groups. even revolutionary groups, stalin was a bankrobber.

i must checkout if saor uladh did any bankjobs,

now if the bankjob is for the organisation its one thing, but if it goes to enrich individuals its another.

the other point is the holier than thou strutting of the WP/OIRA, condemning terrorism while they were armed to the teeth and involved in every criminality under the sun.

while famines are caused by nature, humans can influence their onset or outcome. over tillage, wrong crops, a burocratic and incompetent central "planning" system. all of these helped the famine along. then when most of the good food goes to the arned forces, you have a preoblem.

author by stickpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 15:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What does tronelike mean? Im a socialist republican not a royalist.

"what is your point N Korea is supposed to be a workers paradise according to the WP."

Where did the sticks say DPRK was a workers paradise? The sticks support the DPRK on the basis that it is under constant attack and agression from US imperialism

"Workers are enslaved in North Korea , You and the WP support the slavemasters."

Workers are inslaved all over the world by capitalism. Socialists have to defend nations right to self determination. If the workers and peasants in NK overthrow Kim Jung Il so be it. Not US imperialism.

"track it down yourself. theres a search engine"

I tried and got nothing

"well he could have been a deep plant. what do you reckon."

so many of them I wonder if there are any not on the queens shilling.

"thats not what you said at the time when his books came out. they were lauded in the WP press. in particular : "The Dynamics of Irish Politics" and "The Politics of Illusion".

I never commented on either book.

"i can only go on anecdotal evidence at the moment."

Not good enough. You make alligations that could be used to justify peoples lives in danger you should have some verifiable instances to back up your claims.

"the provocation was attacks on younger republicans. use the search engine for barrys comments."

Provos never physically attacked official Fianna members or IDYM members? I know they did so do you.

"at least you admit the OIRA carried out killings."

Yes. They were unfortunate and regretable. But happened.

"ah, it would have been useful to have TDs raising the issue." (extradition)"

It would be useful for the SF TDs to raise the prison conditions of CIRA/RIRA prisoners or the undemocratic methods used to put them in prison but they dont. Francie Molloy mentioned them and was expelled.

Once again I want to know when the PIRA try to stifle the CIRA in Derry or the CIRA in Limerick because they want to continue the provo war, then they are not acting in the interests of British Imperialism.

You still havent answered the question will the provos be a counter gang if the get involved in policing? in the "sectarian state" - that won't be collaboration?

"i do tend to support them though when people try to rewrite history."

The PIRA are past masters at rewriting history. Check their mythical rewrite of The Falls Curfew.

"through protection rackets and drinking clubs? is that the road to socialism? Supporting North Korea? Dont make sick."

Provos run Pubs/clubs, protection rackets and everything else you accuse the OIRA of running they openly dropped the slogan "for aa socialist republic" to " for an Ireland of Equals"

Your double standards should make you sick without my assistance.

author by historian eilepublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 15:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This term was coined by the media as was PIRA to make distinctions between various factions as was the OIRA, Sinn Fein Kevin St and Sinn Fein Gardiner Place. Both Organisations termed themselves the IRA and Sinn Fein respectively.

author by pat cpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 15:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"What does tronelike mean? Im a socialist republican not a royalist."

Sorry! i was referring to John Throne who delivers rather long contributions.

"Where did the sticks say DPRK was a workers paradise? The sticks support the DPRK on the basis that it is under constant attack and agression from US imperialism"

No you dont, I'm not going to dig out the quotes now but you have hailed it as a great socialist nation. you are not even fooling yourself this time.

"Workers are inslaved all over the world by capitalism."
agreed.

"Socialists have to defend nations right to self determination."
its a pity the WP didnt take that position on ireland.

" If the workers and peasants in NK overthrow Kim Jung Il so be it. Not US imperialism."

we are in agreement then.

""track it down yourself. theres a search engine"

I tried and got nothing "

its on one of the Sean Garland threads. Enter "Sean Garland" + barry , or just enter garland and go through the hits.

"so many of them I wonder if there are any not on the queens shilling."

indeed. when lenin suspected that the leader of the Bolshevik Duma faction was a Police spy , he called ameeting of party activists. Half of those at the meeting later turned out to be police spies.

"I never commented on either book."

i meant you in terms of the WP.

"Not good enough. You make alligations that could be used to justify peoples lives in danger you should have some verifiable instances to back up your claims."

please dont be so melodramatic. anyway i heard it from people i trust. it was also reported on in magill and in Hibernia in 1985 (?).

"Provos never physically attacked official Fianna members or IDYM members? I know they did so do you."

maybe so. i guess its futile getting down to the who started it game.

"Yes. They were unfortunate and regretable. But happened."

terrible irishmen killing irrishmen. whatever i think of how the OIRA went afterwards, i was wrong if i implied the OIRA at this stage was doing britains work. what happened only resulted in celebratory drinks for MI5.

"ah, it would have been useful to have TDs raising the issue." (extradition)"

"It would be useful for the SF TDs to raise the prison conditions of CIRA/RIRA prisoners or the undemocratic methods used to put them in prison but they dont. Francie Molloy mentioned them and was expelled."

it would be. i think they are POWs. I supported Molloy publically.

"Once again I want to know when the PIRA try to stifle the CIRA in Derry or the CIRA in Limerick because they want to continue the provo war, then they are not acting in the interests of British Imperialism. "

i dont agree with the campaign of violence carried out by CIRA & RIRA and would hardly be surprised if the IRA were to try and sabotage it. But as I have already pointed out I condemned the attacks on the CIRA & RIRA. The IRA has made its peace with the British, I dont think theres going to be anymore offensive actions against the CIRA or PIRA. If the IRA were to do so, they would get into hot water with Gerry & Martin, it would upset the political applecart.

"You still havent answered the question will the provos be a counter gang if the get involved in policing? in the "sectarian state" - that won't be collaboration?"

I dont think it would make them a couinter-gang. The WP certainly wouldnt think so, they've always had the fullest of confidence in the RUC/PSNI. Well at least until they arrested Sean Garland.

"i do tend to support them though when people try to rewrite history."

The PIRA are past masters at rewriting history. Check their mythical rewrite of The Falls Curfew.

"through protection rackets and drinking clubs? is that the road to socialism? Supporting North Korea? Dont make sick."

"Provos run Pubs/clubs, protection rackets and everything else you accuse the OIRA of running they openly dropped the slogan "for aa socialist republic" to " for an Ireland of Equals" "

Maybe they do, but they dont go into individuals pockets. The WP dropped any idea of Democratic Socialism a long time ago.

"Your double standards should make you sick without my assistance."

No double standards, I'll leave those to the WP.

author by historianpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 16:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The term Provisional Alliance was invented by the officials and used SOLELY by them. Certainly never by the Provos. It's intent by the officials was to imply that the Provos were an alliance of IRA dissidents and FF who they alleged financed them.










-

author by pat cpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 18:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"The PIRA are past masters at rewriting history. Check their mythical rewrite of The Falls Curfew. "

I missed that one. You'll have to elaborate on that. I recently discussed that on the Fortean Times Message Board, but my opponents there thought events were due to happenstance. They didnt believe the BA had a strategy or were under political orders.

Why not just point me to a link which sets out your perspective?

author by stickpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 20:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Interview with John Kelly

Kelly was part of the nucleus of the 1969 Provisional leadership. Like Billy McKee, he was one of the street fighters who defended Catholic areas like the Lower Falls. Kelly was part of the team responsible for more seriously arming the IRA; weapons became a priority for the new strategy. In 1969, John Kelly and Sean Keenan went to the Bronx in New York City for money and arms and then travelled to England for more...

q: Did you defend the area during the curfew?
a: No I didn't, because the people involved there were the people within the curfew area. And who, incidentally, were mostly official IRA people.

q: Not provisionals?
a: Not provisionals.

Related Link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/kelly.html
author by Barrypublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 20:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It was John Kelly not Francie Molloy who was booted out of sinn fein for supporting political prisoners . Francie Molloy was suspended for criticising government plans to reduce councils in the north and has since been reinstated . To my knowledge he does not support political prisoners . He is also a former member of the Officials in Tyrone ie an ex stickie .

author by stickpublication date Wed Jan 25, 2006 20:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

CAIN: Peter Heathwood Collection of Television Programmes - Yearly ...
Short film for French TV on the media ban on Sinn Fein spokespersons. (In English.)
... includes interview with DO'Hagan about the Falls Road curfew. ...

author by pat cpublication date Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"includes interview with DO'Hagan about the Falls Road curfew. ..."

i wouldnt believe anything that o'hagan said. how do you know as to whether or not its an alcohol fuelled delusion? alzheimers cases forget things that happened; o'hagan remembers things that never happened (a bit like the granpa in the Simpsons).

But I will check out the other sources. I fully accept that the OIRA played a major role during the Falls curfew.

barry

you are of course correct. francie was also right to speak out though on the councils. it was john kelly who supported the RIRA & CIRA POWs.

author by stickpublication date Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

its an old film!

author by Lower Wackpublication date Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Written out of history? The Official IRA revisit the past (Irish News)
As republicans marked the 35th anniversary of the Falls curfew, former members of the Official IRA have been recalling their role during a fateful 36 hours in west Belfast. The Falls Road curfew of the summer of 1970 remains one of the most infamous chapters of the Troubles. A 36-hour period between July 3 and 5 saw three men killed, a fourth injured who later died and some of the worst street violence ever witnessed in the north. Throughout the first night in west Belfast, republicans were engaged in fighting with the security forces, but some of those involved claim they are being written out of history. They say the Official IRA (OIRA) outnumbered the Provisional IRA at that time, but a new generation is unaware of the Officials' participation.

Now they want to mark the 35th anniversary of the curfew – a seminal event in the Troubles and in nationalists' relationship with the British army – by reminding people of their role. Following a split in the IRA at the start of 1970, those who remained became known as the Official IRA or 'Stickies'. Those who left formed the Provisional IRA or 'Provos'. The organisation had divided when then chief of staff Cathal Goulding attempted to move it in a political direction. While the Officials were initially the larger of the two groups, PIRA quickly gained strength to become the main republican grouping in Ireland. In 1972 the OIRA called a ceasefire and has been largely inactive since then.

The trouble which led to the Falls curfew was said to have been sparked when police and the British army raided a house on Balkan Street at around 4.30pm on July 3 1970. It was reported that a rifle, 15 pistols and a sub-machine gun were found at the house. A crowd which had gathered outside refused to move and the army used CS gas to disperse them. Violence broke out and more CS gas was fired. The army brought in armoured vehicles as crowds erected barricades around the lower Falls and the road was the scene of numerous street battles. Former members of the Official IRA say it was their organisation's men and not the Provisionals who were at the forefront of the fighting – with up to 90 armed men involved. "We thought everyone knew what happened, but there seems to be a new generation that are putting a new slant on it. We do not want to be written out of the past," one former member said.
The curfew came days after the Provisionals had engaged in prolonged gun battles with loyalists in the grounds of St Matthew's Church in the Short Strand area of east Belfast. "There were a lot of weapons in the lower Falls. It being the week after the Short Strand, people were incensed and the rioters came out," the former OIRA member said. "They were angry that the army was going to disarm their only means of defence. The army started firing gas and that left us in a position where we could either get rid of our weapons or use them." He said the OIRA then began arming its men to fight against the army. Petrol bombs were thrown at the army in Albert Street and CS gas was used in response. "It was a token thing. In the beginning we were firing onto main roads. We were firing at soldiers and hitting a few. "Once they got us moved back we fired at the saracens, but bullets were ricocheting off them and hitting the houses." At around 10.20pm, as fighting continued, a helicopter carrying a loudspeaker flew over the area and a voice announced that a curfew was being imposed. The voice stated that anyone caught out of doors would be arrested. Army vehicles lined the Falls Road. "At that time we were thinking about taking it further, which was more emotional than logical," the member said. All the shooting between republicans and the army took place in the first 20 minutes of the curfew, he added. In the end, 13 soldiers suffered gunshot wounds while a further five had grenade splinter wounds. In the 35 years since the curfew, the former OIRA members claimed an "unchallenged mythology" had been created and their involvement had been "conveniently airbrushed and arrogantly dismissed". "Memory of our involvement sort of faded away. We, as ex-members, now feel that we should stand up and say something."
July 19, 2005

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