Independent Media Centre Ireland

James Connolly's Grandson In Fresh Call To Save 16 Moore Street

category national | history and heritage | feature author Saturday August 13, 2005 00:09author by Realta Rua

Today (Weds 10th August) James Connolly's grandson made a renewed call for the house with 1916 associations to be saved from developers. During the Easter Rising, the house at 16 Moore Street was the location where Padraig Pearse, a wounded James Connolly and other leaders of the Rising spent their last two days of freedom. They had fought their way out of a blazing GPO, ran into a house in Moore Street and tried to smash their way through the walls of the terrace and escape.

Dublin City Council has already said the demolition of a house where the leaders of the 1916 Rising surrendered is crucial for the rejuvenation of the city centre. Earlier last year, the National Graves Association, An Taisce and Dublin's Lord Mayor have all called for the house, number 16 Moore Street, to be fully preserved but pressure is mounting.

As well as the grandson of James Connolly, leading conservationists and local representatives are calling for a Millennium Mall on the site to be amended and the building saved. It is now 88 years ago since the Easter rebellion, lead by one of Irelands most renowned revolutionary Marxist scholars reached number 16 Moore Street but could go no further.

In a twist to today’s call Dublin City Council has reportedly stood by their earlier position that while 1916 should be appropriately recognised, the building must go. It plans to demolish the house as part of a rejuvenation project which would allow Moore Street be connected to O'Connell Street. Now the fate of 16 Moore Street is not sealed just yet, as the Council still has not secured control of the site and further planning permission is required, but time is running out, fast.

Sunday August 14th Public Meeting On Future Of 16 Moore Street

Related Indymedia Ireland Material
Moore Street Archive
Previous James Connolly Related Feature

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Comments (98 of 98)

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author by Dermot Laceypublication date Wed Aug 10, 2005 23:25author address author phone

Interesting - usually on indymedia whenever a poster can have a go at me I am mentioned by name. In this instance just as "the Lord Mayor". Of course 16 Moore Street should be saved and I will and have done everything within my power - as have lots of others to achieve this. That is why i submitted proposals for the City Development Plan on this - as did SF.

1916 and the birth of our State needs to be reclaimed by Democratic Ireland and 16 Moore Street would be at least a partial symbol of this.

author by Activist Apublication date Thu Aug 11, 2005 00:13author address author phone

Dermot, the world does not revolve around you, contrary to what you seem to believe. I'm quite sure the author is not just publishing this story because you exist. They are publishing it because it is an issue they care about.
It seems more likely that you are offended purely because you have been ignored, and you just want some publicity.
It is the issue that matters, not you. The issue needs genuine activists, not bloody prima donnas.

author by Gypsy Davypublication date Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:15author address author phone

Dermot I feel so let down. As an anarchist I always rejected parliamentry politics but now I see the light in you Dermot, You alone can lead us
Jus tell me this
Were You actually in the G.P.O. in 1916 too

(Insult removed by editor)

author by Leave Lacey alonepublication date Thu Aug 11, 2005 18:21author address author phone

in fairness to Lacey he put a fair whack of time into trying to do something about back in 03 - i know as i was there. Lay off him.

author by feeling very pedantic todaypublication date Thu Aug 11, 2005 18:58author address author phone

and fix the feckin roof.

Oh yeah I remember.

No publicity for politicians or campaigning groups full of artificially large human beings in that.

I'd lay a bet that I could find a roofer who'd do it for love of country, a small fee (and the free advertising he/she would get) in24 hours.

Should I try?

author by Raymond McInerney - Global Country of World Peacepublication date Thu Aug 11, 2005 21:31author email raymond.mcinerney at ul dot ieauthor address author phone

Leave it up only if the building has proper vastu.

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author by Realtaruapublication date Thu Aug 11, 2005 22:59author address author phone

Irish argue over fate of Easter Rising landmark

By Kevin Smith

DUBLIN (Reuters) - A small, barely visible plaque is all that marks out Number 16 Moore Street in central Dublin, but the shabby house in a ramshackle terrace is an important landmark in one of Irish history's key events.

Neglected for years, the crumbling building, which provided a final sheltering place for leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising against British rule, has become the centre of a bitter row.

A debate over the fate of Number 16 was sparked after John Connolly, the grandson of rebel leader James Connolly, described the condition of the house as "shameful", and slammed city authorities for failing to preserve it.
On Thursday Fianna Fail MP Eoin Ryan joined the fray.

"Despite commitment from Dublin City Council to preserve the building and incorporate it into a planned regeneration scheme, it is falling apart," he said.

"(It) is part of our national heritage and I am not prepared to take this lying down," added Ryan, who is calling for the government to intervene so the site can be converted into a museum and education centre.

Two years ago, Number 16 was narrowly saved from demolition after several public figures launched a campaign to save it.
The house, which now looks down on market traders selling cheap fruit and vegetables, was where a wounded Connolly and other leaders of the Rising, including Padraig Pearse, took refuge after shelling by British troops drove them out of their main headquarters in the nearby General Post Office.

A short time later, facing superior firepower, the men surrendered and within days many had been executed.

The Rising was a military disaster for the rebels but proved to be an overwhelming symbolic victory, and the seeds of independence had been sown for Ireland to become a free state in the early 1920s.

Sinn Fein Statement on 16 Moore Street:

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author by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethicspublication date Fri Aug 12, 2005 01:07author address author phone

16 Moore Street former home of James Connolly, executed in the Easter Rising 1916

and the Powers that be of this Country are prepared to sanction its demolition and replace it with a shopping mall.

What is this mentality about? Most definitely it is not about History and the eminence of men who worked, wrote, fought and died for its emergence.

What a disappointment to see the emerging capitalist focus and the removal of a sense of Moral History from the Island of Ireland.

The Peace Process bodes a chance and acceptance for people in the North of Ireland as the Island of Ireland embraces diversity and Unity.

Today we hear of an enterprising endeavour that will honour a history of Shipbuilding. The docklands area (tax incentive attractions) will see the reconstruction of a model of the Titanic, scheduled for 2012. What an enterprise and initiative that will lead to tourism.

Moore Street is about culture; changes are happening but let us not lose this house belonging to James Connolly, his spirit and the spirits of all those men who sought for an Island of Ireland. Shame on us.

Living in D4, I have the advantage of meeting many people with different stories.

Today, a woman whom I meet walking my dog, stopped to have a chat. The subject turned to politics. This woman is probably in her eighties so her interest in politics is enlightening to me.

She made a comment.....It made be me think about just how far removed we are from a fascist state regime. (this is just a personal thought/fear).

It is simple. We are presently consumed with proplems relating to health that occupy a considerable proportion of Minister Harney's time, as Health Minister. She is also acting as deputy for Justice Equality and Law Reform.

The question she raised:

How come the leading portfolios are the responsibility of those who have less than 4% of the vote?

Is this democracy?

Michelle Clarke

Quotation: Goethe
'What we do not understand, we do not possess'

Please preserve the home of James Connolly who was executed in 1916 and a prodigious writer in the socialist theme.

author by corrigendumpublication date Fri Aug 12, 2005 06:56author address author phone

"... the seeds of independence had been sown for Ireland to become a free state in the early 1920s."

Surely that should read: "... the seeds of independence had been sown for Ireland to become a *Free State* in the early 1920s."

There is, I submit, a wee difference between a "free state" and a "Free State".

Or to quote the man himself:
"If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain.

England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.

It would be tantamount to a public declaration that our oppressors had so far succeeded in inoculating us with their perverted conceptions of justice and morality that we had finally decided to accept those conceptions as our own, and no longer needed an alien army to force them upon us."

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author by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethicspublication date Fri Aug 12, 2005 20:52author address author phone

Where do they stand on our moral obligations to the History of this Nation State and achieving the Unity of Ireland which is so near and yet so far?

I stand to be corrected but the last building used by the Leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising should be converted into a tourist attraction rather than allowed to become subsumed by a Shopping Mall.

The building in 16 Moore Street, Dublin, was the location where a wounded James Connollt, Padraig Pearse and others wrote the Surrender Note that ended the short lived Rebellion against British Rule. This building should be declared a listed building, not just now but many years ago. The roof sadly of this building is ready to collapse any day. It is in rack and ruin. The only tenants are pidgeons.

A Fianna Fail led Government in the 1930's backed down from a plan to demolish Kilmainham Jail - (Look at the success to the tourist industry of its restoration.

I travelled to Holland and recall my visit to the Home of Anne Frank......It is poignant and effective in registering a form of moral history.

Walking through Dublin I often look at the name plates adjacent to those Famous Georgian Doorways and the details of famous Irish people who lived in the particular house. I was greatly surprised to read that a man ahead of his time designed these plates and patented the initiative.

Do people realise that after the IRA Statement on the 28th of July 2005, it was reported that people had already begun to sell IRA memorabilia on eBay?

But it is not just eBay that is engaged in sale of items but James Adam no less, in St. Stephen's Green!!!

Change is abreast and history is in the making.

While those decades that created the Celtic Tiger and their own adaptztion of Irish History, we must recall that the levels of corruptiun undermining our State were stiffling and contrary to the principles of James Connolly and other Irish Volunteers.

There was great excitement recently about a 4 part series about Charles J. Hauighey, former Taoiseach. People no doubt have different opinions but it is suffice to say that the establishment of Tribunals to probe corruption with particular emphasis on land transactions; bribes, shady deals and all the rest. These tribunals continue and will do so for many years to come.

What I would like to ask?

The media reports conflict among the public as to whether the local people in a village in Kerry can erect a statute to C. J. Haughey? RTE have given considerable air time to this man.

If this is so, can someone explain to me why there appears to be an extermination of very important parts of Irish History and in particular to those men who died for the birth of the new Nation State.

What is the shame about? It is shame!!!

I feel entitled to say this as my Grandfather, Michael Comyn, KC, represented Thomas Clarke, Erskine Childers and others.

More importantly, he whose family had been evicted from their farm in Ballyvaughan, entered the Civil Service, won the Queen's Prize, entered King's Inns.........etc.

The case is Clifford and O'Sulivan. It was a court martial and he went to the House of Lords - King George V intervened and the lives of 42 Irish men were saved. You can find no data yet enquiried come from the legal profession in England?

Does anyone ever ask where does the money go from all the corruption that exists. I had to emigrate in the 1980s but I also add I was aware that funds were being sent overseas and resented the fact, that people in business didn't wish to promote their own country.......?

Michelle Clarke
'One can never pay in gratitude
One can only pay in kind
somewhere else in life
Thanksgiving is about passi ng it on'

Let's stand up as the people of a United Ireland and demand the preservation of historic properties, particularly those related to the foundation of the State.

One more point. Why did the Department of Environment sanction the cutting down of the trees in O'Connell Street (some had bullets from the time of the rising). Why such ignorance in Ireland against our own Political culture.

Just look at Tara, the seat of the High Kings. The bedrock of the pre-christianity Druidic culture. People all over the world are signing petitions and yet the 'ignorant educated (my description) are rollicking around like the 'fools on the hill'.

Where is the Justice Equality of Law Reform? Their agenda appears far removed from facilitating the Peace Process constructively.

author by Alpublication date Fri Aug 12, 2005 21:03author address author phone

You seem to be a bit behind in your information. the house is not being demolished but is, as we speak, having reconstructive work done. It will not be torn down but I am unsure what it will be used for.

author by via ITpublication date Fri Aug 12, 2005 22:01author address author phone

Ruadhán Mac Eoin

The grandson of James Connolly has expressed concern at the condition of No 16 Moore Street, the final headquarters of the provisional government during the Easter Rising in 1916.

John Connolly yesterday described the neglect of the house as "shameful" and said that, despite commitments to preserve the building, it was falling apart before his very eyes.

Mr Connolly, who lives in Bray, Co Wicklow, and who owns a welding and engineering company, said he has observed that the building is missing a substantial number of roof slates, which he fears is leaving the interior exposed to the elements.

During Easter Week 1916 the house was where the wounded James Connolly, Pádraig Pearse and others, including Seán MacDermott, Thomas Clarke and Joseph Plunkett, made the decision to surrender on Easter Saturday.

Two years ago a high-profile campaign was started by the National Graves Association, the Academy for Heritage, historian Tim Pat Coogan and others including lord mayor Dermot Lacey, to save the building after it was earmarked for demolition.

Shortly after Dublin City Council agreed that the building be "retained and incorporated into the planned regeneration" of the area and be developed as a public information and education centre.

The present Dublin City Development Plan proposes that No 16 Moore Street be converted into a museum, which would be owned, run and administered by Dublin City Council.

"It is an objective of Dublin City Council to preserve No 16 Moore Street as a commemorative centre marking the events of 1916", according to the plan.

The building is in the middle of the site originally earmarked for redevelopment by the Carlton Group as part of the O'Connell Street area regeneration programme.

However, the plan to develop the former Carlton Cinema through to Moore Street failed to materialise, and the scheme and the sites are locked in legal wrangles.

In December 2001, Dublin City Council initiated compulsory purchase proceedings, but a judgment by the High Court in favour of the council is now being appealed to the Supreme Court by one of the former partners of the Carlton Group.

Last May in a Dáil reply, Minister for the Environment Dick Roche said that, despite the provisions made by Dublin City Council, No 16 Moore Street "is not currently included in Dublin City Council's record of protected structures".

Chairman of the antiquities and national monuments committee of An Taisce Dr Mark Clinton said yesterday that the situation was "simply not good enough".

"It does not matter that a local authority may have good intentions if they are incapable for whatever local reason," he said. "If a building is of such national significance then surely it must be a priority for a national heritage protection agency to step in."

A spokesperson for Dublin City Council said yesterday although the building is not listed to be protected for its architecutre, it is listed to be preserved arising from its historical significance.

A public meeting on the future of the building has been convened by An Taisce for 3pm next Sunday at Tailors Hall, close to Christ Church.

Related Link:
author by eeekkkkkpublication date Fri Aug 12, 2005 22:09author address author phone

Archive on Moore Street

Previous james Connolly Related Feature

author by Sacrilegistpublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:35author address Irelandauthor phone

Was the Easter Rising an undemocratic putsch? Are today’s freedom-fighters ‘terrorists’? I’m not so interested in either one of these questions here, but both taken together. These are questions for the Left as well, but since this ain’t the mass media, lets scrutinise the powerful.

The double-think of most Irish people when it comes to revering the 1916 rising and castigating from a height those involved in today’s struggles is embarrassing.

Establishment Ireland is for negating “due process” vis-à-vis the Colombia Three, thus giving more legitimacy to the para-military terrorist government of Colombia and its claims for more support from the US.

Speaking of which – Shannon – War on Peace – support for terrorist regimes such as Uzbekistan – a long history of training death squads.

One other thing. I’m not sure I get the grandson thing – what’s the significance? Is there a genetic insight or something?

Yet another thing, I understand preservation for architectural significance, but on the basis of guns being fired from, or people having set foot in, or spent the night in etc. What’s all that about? We might as well make a memorial out of every house. The genesis of this sham-nation-state is no more worthy a reason than any other.

And finally, apart from James Connolly who was co-opted, was this not just a glorious sacrifice for romanticist right-wingers?

author by Alpublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:45author address author phone

Theres no way to conclusively define a terrorist, freedom fighter etc however if I try I can come up with the following:

A freedom fighter targets military or police forces from a foreign occupying force.

A terrorist targets foreign based civilians.

Now, the question is are the groups such as Hamas and those in Afghanistan and Iraq 'Freedom fighters' or 'terrorists'. A little murkier water now. I would then to allow public opinion decide. Terrorists will usually have a selfish or distorted cause. Is the force they are targeting popular and the peoples choice? Its dodgy but I would say terrorists because they target civilians.

the actions of 1916 were a worthy cause and the men and women of the day deserve remembering and respect. they fought a foreign based force of military/police personell that had used violence to occupy and rule our nation.

author by Sacrilegistpublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:49author address author phone

You're the first garda i've heard, who admits that British forces in modern Ireland are legitemate targets.

author by Barrypublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 17:13author address author phone

The house is definitely worth saving as it is without doubt of immense historical and political significance . I strongly disagree with the contention that those within the GPO and 16 Moore street laid the foundations for todays sham , partitioned , anti-sovereignty , anti -Irish, free state . The foundations of todays mongrel state were laid by the British establishment in Downing street and Whitehall , not in the GPO .

No blame can be attached to those men for the mercenary actions of others after their deaths at Britains hands . Simply because the state itself attempts to claim more historical legitimacy by hijacking their sacrifice ( as well as that of the forgotten 10 recently) does not mean they should be dismissed . Quite the reverse .

Ordinary and extraordinary working class Irish people should be encouraged to claim them as their own and fuck the free state and all it stands for .

People should educate themselves more thoroughly as to what exactly those men and women fought for and compare it to the stinking, corrupt and slavish institutions which pass for Irish sovereignty today . 16 Moore street was not just were the surrender order was issued . It was were the hope was expressed that even though revolutionary forces had been laid low by overwhelming British force and native Irish timidity , that others would follow their example and establish full Irish sovereignty and all the rights for our people that went with it . The flame of revolution was lit in the GPO but it was passed on to future generations in Moore street . That is its true significance and educational potential . The true significance of what happened in Moore street is in direct contradiction to the collaborator state and politicians of today .

As for the common leftist dismissals of the events of 1916 as an "undemocratic putsch" led by "romantic right wingers" these should be laid bare for the spineless, repetitive nonsense they are . Should Pearse and Connolly have pushed for a nationwide referendum first ? The charges of it being anti democratic are ridiculous and a smokescreen foravoiding confrontationwith Britain in the first place .

What was right wing about the 1916 rising ? While some of its leaders , mainly poets were undoubtedly romantic figures just because they werent card carrying marxists doesnt make them right-wingers . Pearse certainly wasnt right wing as his own writings on education , his support for the Dublin workers and the origins of his own revolutionary awakening underline . Neither were Clarke and McDermott . Both were hard bitten fenians and realists rather than romantic figures . This leftist dismissal of 1916 should be treated with the same derision as the free-states attempt to portray itself as the sovereign , independent Irish republic those men and women fought to establish .

Both arguments are equally spineless and self serving . The proponents of the leftist dismissal of those events and John Brutons condemnation of it a few years back ultimately amount to the same thing .

author by Sacrilegistpublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 17:50author address author phone

I thought the flame was lit in 1798. Should hundreds of yalla mud houses including my grandad's have been preserved in their old state, just because they harboured pikes?

It is possible ot be right-wing and revolutionary (the Girondists in France for example. A general rule of thumb - fascists subordinate life to nation - their lives or the lives of others.

The C19 Romantic Nationalist movements which peppered Europe, were mainly comprised of local bourgeoisie who'd reached a glass ceiling.

Going by the Rising survivors who dominated free state politics till the 1960s, they were no better than the rest.

Although i'm glad to see the British state out of this part of the country (though you wouldn't know by some of the pretentious yokes that pass for Irish these days), once the nationalist and die-hard elites got Dublin, they drank port wine, eat Yorkshire pudding, and let the six counties go and whistle.

plus le change...

author by Sacrilegistpublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 18:12author address author phone

I should add that communities defending themselves against repression don't need some weird continuityattempt to legitemise their cause.

On the basis of second-class citizenship, a majority everywhere have cause for grievance. We don't have to suffer the same culture of domination as people in the Six Counties, the the disparities are legion.

Such struggles go beyond any nation - their cause is humanity.

author by Barrypublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 19:34author address author phone

Girondists and other obscure right wing sects have absolutely sweet eff all to do with 1916 or Moore street . They are an utter irrelevance to Moore street and Irish history . Talk about casting your net wide .

The flame of revolution was certainly lit in 1798 but by 1916 it was most definitely long extinguished . Not a whiff of it remained outside the tiny IRB and ICA . If you think modern Ireland is pro - British and pro capitalist the political situation then was much worse and in your face . Thousands upon thousands of little Irish schoolchildren lining the route of the British monarchs visit , waving little union jacks and cheering .
Tens of 1000s of young Irishmen happily volunteering for Britains war effort . In the years prior to WW1 1000s more volunteerIng for its exploits against Zulus , Somalians , Arabs and Afghans . 1916 largely put an end to that bullshit almost overnight . Without 1916 its quite likely that 1000s of Irish troops also would be embarking from Shannon today as well as yanks .

When the physical surrender was signed in Moore street the torch was deliberately and calculatedly passed on to every generation since in Ireland to carry on the fight for full independence from Britian and the establishment of a fully sovereign Irish state . Every decade since in Ireland has seen armed rebellion against the status quo which exists today . That is its significance . The republic which was proclaimed in 1916 and later overwhelmingly ratified at the ballotbox has yet to be made a reality .

Unlike some mudhut which was used to store pikes in 98 , Moore street was where the final actions of the very first Irish government ever took place . The elections of 1918 endorsed both the actions and the legitimacy of this provisional government and most importantly their assertion of Irish sovereignty . Scoff all you want but this is a fact . The structured beliefs we have today of national sovereignty , Independence , neutrality and social justice all stem from the events of Easter week . Without Easter week the Irish psyche was well on the way to being purged of these notions entirely . The establishment of a Provisional government was to bluntly assert we have the right to rule ourselves free from foreign dominion , that the Irish people are a sovereign and independent people . Had that right not been established and enshrined at the ballot box would there be anyone still demanding it today ?

Where there individuals who fought in 1916 with right wing attitudes ? certainly . The Irish volunteers were NOT a revolutionary organisation, not even a political organisation as such , simply an armed one . The revolutionary orgaisation were the Fenians of the IRB who used its ranks , as well as Conradh na Gaelige and the GAA for respectable cover . That a handful of those who fought in 1916 ( probably as much by accident as design) were mercenary enough to use the fact to their personal and financial advantage in later life is not a valid criticism of the men who initiated the rebellion in the first place . Many others who fought in 1916 and later were put up against a wall and shot by free state forces . 1000S of Irelands best men and women were forced to emigrate once the 1922 counter revolution succeeded in warping the ideals and aims of the Provisional government of 1916 . 1000s more were interned and jailed right up untill the 40s and 50s at regular intervals .They simply never got their chance to make their marks on Irish life . Many were simply hounded out of Irish life .

Moore streets relevance to the ideals of the 1916 proclamation and the Provisional government which drafted it should be explained to todays generation of young people . Surely those ideals are worth remembering and even , god forbid , working for today .

author by eeekkkkkpublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 19:47author address author phone

at the gpo. It was absolutely ignored and not supported one iota by the government. The Shinners organised it I think or was it the Irish National Congress?

The revisionists all blamed the 50th anniversary and various associated tv programmes (insurrection?) for the catholics getting uppity in the 6 counties a couple of years later.

The 100th anniversary sure will be interesting.

11 years to go.

I wonder will 'they' (artificially large rte heads) make any tv programmes for the occassion?

author by Accuracypublication date Sat Aug 13, 2005 23:41author address author phone

Host piece is not quite correct, since 03, reconfirmed in 05 DCC have as policy to protect 16, and this is now down twice in the 2005-2011development plan - see IT piece:

Dublin City Council agreed that the building be "retained and incorporated into the planned regeneration" of the area and be developed as a public information and education centre.

The present Dublin City Development Plan proposes that No 16 Moore Street be converted into a museum, which would be owned, run and administered by Dublin City Council.

"It is an objective of Dublin City Council to preserve No 16 Moore Street as a commemorative centre marking the events of 1916", according to the plan.

author by an imcerpublication date Sun Aug 14, 2005 00:19author address author phone

Indymedia ireland relys to a great extent on such peer review in striving for accuracy and accountability of contributors to users of the site.

Similar clarifications on any and all other news here is very welcome in comments and contributes greatly to the value of stories.

author by mr rantpublication date Sun Aug 14, 2005 15:19author address author phone

Linking o'connell street to moore street, i thought henry street was doing a pretty good job of that with parnell street helping out, moore street itself is reasonably short and doesnt need such an additional link. hmmm, surely the plan is to destroy moore street and its unique trading athmosphere. Hike up the licences for all the stalls and line both sides of the road with glittering malls. Between the ilacs facelift and the proposed new shopping monolith,the plan not so much linking o'connell street to moore street but linking the side entrance of the ilac to the new millenium mall. The complete eradication of moore street except in name does not seem to be a problem, maybe a plaque or a statue commemorating the lively trade will be erected, much more hygenic.

Personally i'm just as concerned about the beautification of moore street as the destruction of the house, why does the council dislike the traders there so much but theres no problem with the market every saturday in temple bar. I know they might see street trading as a blight on irelands first world status, but to be so intent on wiping out the last vestiges of such in our city seems a bit captain ahab, the plan seems to have the same fervent gleam in its eye as the new motorway, the same belief that progress is to be seen to do something without considering if it moves anything forward in any way. This sort of thing is just another facet of our current identity crisis best seen in our tourism industry, just how should we brand ireland. It seems that all over the country local councils and developers seem to think that shiny new shopping centres and hotels are all that is needed, sure the last time they went to majorca they just stayed in the hotel and went to the beach a couple of pamphlets in the lobby was enough culture for them thank you very much, the less contact with grubby locals the better.

But maybe im wrong, what sane person could wait for this shiny future where you will be able to walk off o'connel street and hop from millenium, to ilac to jervis without glimpsing anything faintly unique while you bathe in the warmth of consumerist dreams, it'll be like a shopping ghetto cut off from grubby reality.

author by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethicspublication date Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:31author address author phone

in the North to foster integration.

The amount is paltry but at least it is a start.

How about using some initiative about James Connolly home in Moore Street?

Did anyone watch Bethan Collins programme tonight at 7.30 p.m. (I cannot recall the name)?

Tonight the topic was Omagh and Trauma. Just a way out suggestion about a theme for the property in Moore Street (i.e. if the people of Ireland can usurp those in Dublin City Council who object via the Carlton deal and plans for O'Connoll Street).

The people affected by the bomb in 1998 suffered severe trauma. Rather than having to visit the Mental Health centre, somebody used their initiative located a suitable property where the people could attend for cognitive behavioural therapy for trauma.....?

This is a person's initiative and I am sure there are lots out there with suggestions for James Connolly's house in Moore Street and the promotion of Irish Culture, be it political or socialist in content.

I note the MEP Eoin Ryan has included his name to support this property. Eoin Ryan's grandfather was the doctor who attended James Connolly at that house.....As far as I am aware Eoin Ryan is connected to Sean T. Kelly also.

Time for people in Ireland to start making a stand. The profiteering and corruption in the property market that has sped ahead since the early 1990's must now be held accountable for the fact that they owe a considerable amount to 1916 and the formation of the State.

Time for them to drop the shame!!!!!

Let's ask people what they want for a change! How do they feel about the chopping down of trees in O'Connell street?

How can the property be funded and re-constructed and what theme can be used?

Are their any architects who would draw up plans for free? Are their project managers to oversee the work?

I am aware that the National Gallery holds many paintings that they can't display due to lack of wall space.

The artists are there: Tom Ryan; Sean Keating; Estella Solomon provided a rich heritagle of our political struggle!!!

Any ideas

author by feeling less pedantic todaypublication date Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:38author address author phone

It'll rot quick the way it is and voila more greedy ffers ad pders facts on the ground.

Would one have to ask someones permission to do so at own expense?

What if they said no - should it be done anyway?

author by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethicspublication date Tue Aug 16, 2005 22:32author address author phone

Yes, why not?

The reality is that the roof has been allowed to fall into disrepair to ensure that history can be wiped away by a JCB; the planning authorities and a building consortium for the profit motive!!!!

I live in an apartment block at present and am having serious problems with my roof but surely there is someone out there who might be willing to do the necessary work.

There are many skilled migrants in Ireland presently and if we can get no volunteers to draw up a plan and provide a roof, maybe there is a way of getting funds and creating a project. Perhaps Eoin Ryan MEP could make a suggestion?

I believe in people power and I believe in history. I particularly believe in the significance of the lives lost by those who fought for the freedom of Ireland in 1916. These men are the Founding Fathers of the Nation State.

How can we get the momentum going here? Would Joe Higgins be able to support this given James Connolly is a father of socialism in a needy Ireland of the early 1900's.

Where are Sinn Fein? Would they not consider a change of location from Parnell Street to Moore Street!!! People have plenty of time to mull ideas around in their head. We need action. Most importantly, to prevent rot and dry rot, Mr. Pedantic today, we need a roof!!!!

Michelle Clarke

Leo Tolstoy (1828-1920) Russian Writer
'Without know who I am and why I am here, life is impossible'

and lets try this one:
Confucius (c.551-478 BC)
'To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice'

author by Jimmy G.publication date Wed Aug 17, 2005 00:43author address author phone

word to the wise
it is easier (and cheaper) to build a hall
than get permission for one
or even permission to rent one

ever see those religious heads at it?

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 16:39author address author phone

Just a quick update for those interested in the issue. At a meeting on Friday last organised by myself and Joe Costello on behalf of the "Save 16 Moore Street Committee" the Deputy City Manager Owen Keegan gave a number of committments that should lead to the full protection of the building. We have also secured the agreement of senior members of the Carlon Consortium to co-operate with the City Council on this.

While this does signal real progess there is still some way to go on this before we can be absolutely certain that No. 16 will be saved. Support from the Heritage section of the Dept would go a long way to help. so anyone who can please lobby the Minister on this.

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 17:38author address author phone

Another fine example of what real representation is all about, doing the business for the people with the people who can affect change.

On another note, surely the birthplace of our republic is not the GPO and the surrounding area but rather the execution yard in Kilmainham Jail.

Its widely accepted now that the unpopular and unsuccessful rising was transformed in the public eye by the decision of the british to execute the leaders, and in particular the decision to shoot James Connolly sitting on a chair as he was so badly injured he couldnt stand.

I believe that in any commemorations organised for next year the jail, and in particular the execution yard should be central.

author by kevinpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 17:50author address author phone

who cares what James Connolly's grandson says - his grandfather talked rubbish anyway..

author by ABTApublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:04author address author phone

If James Connolly was alive today, Dermot Lacey would be denouncing him as a "Middle Class lets pretend "Leftie".
James Connolly wasn't and wouldn't have been a Social Democrat, would he now Lacey?

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:37author address author phone

You are correct for once ABTA. If James Connolly was alive today he possibly would not have been a Social Democrat - I don't know.

More than likely he would have been a Trade Union leader engaged in Social Partnership and I wonder what you would say about him then..

Irrespective of that I believe, as do many others, that the place where the Easter RIsing leaders met to agree a surrender " in order to defend the lives of innocent citizens" should be preserved.

I also believe as a Constitutional Republican that the vision and courage of the men and women of 1916 should not be hijacked by any segment of Irsh political life and their memory cherished by all who value the Republic of Ireland - warts and all.

author by Labour youth memberpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 19:44author address author phone

Lacey you`re wrong, social partnership is a sham that disproportionatley works to the advantage of employers and the Fianna Fail/PD administration. it is the reason why irish trade unionism is a joke, and one of the reasons why our voter base is being attacked by the ''revolutionary'' left.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 22:09author address author phone

Labour Youth member you are correct. I have huge reservations about the Social partnership process which is why at the request of the Wheel organisation I spoke against the present social partnership structure at their Conference last year. Give us a call and I will give you a copy of the speech. However Connolly was a pragmatist and I do believe that in all probability he would have been as a good (no great) Trade Union leader have been so involved.

author by Laceywatchpublication date Mon Aug 22, 2005 23:42author address author phone

Give one quote from Connolly to justify your contention that he would have favoured any sort of partnership with the bosses, anywhere, anytime. Maybe when he worked with the IWW in the USA? When he was involved in the 1913 Lockout? When he was organising the ISRP?

BTW Dermot have you ever read anything that Connolly wrote? From the stupendously ill-informed comment above Im beginning to doubt that you have.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 02:10author address author phone

Good nickname if a little unoriginal.

Truth is that Connolly the Pragmatist was perhaps the first social partner of them of all. When he went into coalition with Pearse, Clarke, Plunkett, Ceannt, Mc Dermott etc. Of course little historical truths have never stopped the far left on Indymedia from speculating so why should it now ????????

author by Comedy Watchpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:22author address author phone

I'm sure when he was propped up facing the firing squad his last thoughts were 'I'm glad I was pragmatic there.'

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:48author address author phone

What a shame that even in Irony you can so belittle a truly great man. I have no difficulty whatsover in saying that I respect the men and women of 1916. That is not to say that i agree with every word of every sylable that they ever uttered - just that they were true heroes of our country and deserve to have their memory cherished and respected. So comedy watch have a bit of manners

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:00author address author phone

In fairness now Dermo you can't give out to someone for not respecting Connolly when you have completely ignored everything he wrote and said. He'd be turning in his grave at the thought of our "social partnership" and what is social democracy in this country.

author by Laceywatchpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:04author address author phone

Ah Dermot surely you can better than that: Just one quote Dermot to show that Connolly at any time in his life advocated a partnership with the bosses. Joining revolutionary nationalists in an uprising against British imperialism is not the same as advocating 'partnership' with capitalists. After all Pearse et al were no socialist but the sided with the workers not the bosses in 1913.

BTW which of Connollys writings have you actually read Dermot? Given that next year is the 90th anniversary of his execution and you are the leading light in the so-called Liberty project you might want to swot up on what the man actually wrote rather than whatever comes into your head at any given time. I'd recommend you start with 'Socialism made easy' which he wrote when he was working in the USA, you might learn something.

author by Comedy Watchpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:17author address author phone

when you say this Lacey.

"More than likely he would have been a Trade Union leader engaged in Social Partnership and I wonder what you would say about him then.."

More than likely he would have spent a lot of time denoucing you. He wasn't very fond of 'municipal socialists'.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 13:15author address author phone

Thaks Dublin Exile for your comments. Great to hear from you after so long.Hope the family is well. Your new county's gain is certainly Dublin's loss.

It is really hard to believe that after all these years there are people who believe in some of the stuff posted here.

Anyway you and I are quite happy to fly the flag of Republican Social Democracy and sure someday some of the posters might even grow up. You and I have seen them all before.

Now they'll all get huffy and condemn me for not reading some old book or sticking to the same principles that someone had a copule of hundred years ago. Perhaps I should go to more introductory readings in the back room of some dodgy ould pub to be bored the pants off as some Middle Class College Graduate having his ( nearly always a his) socialist kicks before he goes off to work for Smurfitts ( remember him) or some other such firm. Or perhaps i'll just carry on as I am doing.

They forget you see that true Social democracy/democratic Socialism is about values and people - not idealogical crap that sensible people ignore.

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 15:01author address author phone

While we're at it why don't we go out and campaign for a 40 hour week, votes for women, a minimum wage, a labour court, the return of the treaty ports and the abolition of the Holy Hour?

What? Its already happened? When?

I've been so busy reading the writings of James Connolly that i didn't realise I was living in a country 89 years after his death.

Poor oul JC must be spinning in his grave.

Still it must be a consolation for him that so many people are spending their evenings pouring over his every utterance rather than getting involved in representing the people who he dedicated his life to, the workers.

Can you remind me what JC had to say about the Internet or my George Forman Grill, I could be in mortal danger of betraying the revolution.

Keep up the good work brother, see you in Dublin soon.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 15:24author address author phone

What ridiculous comments the last two posters have. When challenged on ideological grounds they resort to petty name calling and tired old "middle class students" bullshit. How interesting that your combined IQ is also how many years it's been since Connolly was executed.

Dermot you are a tired old git who will never even get the nomination to run for the dail let alone get elected. Since you put so much belief in elected reps dealing in "real" politics your life must not be worth living as your party doesn't even consider you worth running for the Dail.

Dublin exile I wont bother responding to as it seems his problem is with people reading. Intelligence is obviously something severely lacking in the Labour party. But after the next election Sinn Fein will be bigger then them and we can talk about the PD's and Labour in the same light - small, irrelevant and well on the way to exctinction.

author by Interestedpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 15:32author address author phone

James Connolly's Grandson?

author by Laceywatchpublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 15:33author address author phone

Before Dermot and Dublin Exile get lost in mutual admiration I just want to get this clear:

Both of you think that its utterly pointless to read anything that Connolly wrote cos it was written long ago and has nothing to tell us about today. But hold on a minute, Dermot has just stated on this thread that:

1. Connolly was a pragmatist who would have supported some form of 'social partnership'

2. That we should be inspired by Connollys 'values'.

Now can either of you tell me how I am to know what Connollys values or views on what passed for 'social partnership' in his day were unless I read what he wrote? How does Dermot know what Connollys values were unless he read something by Connolly or something written by someone else on Connolly. This is fairly basic logic fellas, unless we are expected to just take it for granted that becuase you are a member of the Labour Party you just have to look into your heart and hey presto you know what Connolly would have done/thought.

Dublin Exiles point is quite childish really. If we follow his logic nothing written by anyone in the past is of any value cos it can't tell us about the internet etc. Of course dogmatists of all types read books of past activists and treat them like an infallible Bible but thats hardly the same as reading Connolly or Marx (or Paine or Rousseau etc etc.) and not gaining any useful insights from that reading.

Dermot and DE may find it impossible to believe that there are people out there who read big books, engage in active campaigning, work in humdrum jobs and never went to college, all at the same time. Just like James Connolly really.

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 15:42author address author phone

No Sherlock, i've no problem with people reading, what i do have a problem with is people in 2005 who have to find permission in the texts of the early 1900s to undertake anything or to determine what their response should be to any issue that arises.

Also unlike leftist micro-groups the labour party has never forced particular texts or an interpretation of those texts on their members at 'introductory' or 'new member' meetings.

Socialism is about Values and the lives of real people, how those values are applied through the years will always change and adapt to meet current needs but the underlying centrality of the dignity of each and every human beign remains.

As for what Sinn Fein likes people to read - well it wasn't too keen on Rick O Rawes account of the hungerstrikes was it? Or Eamonn Collins account of his life as a provo was it?

Both Ray Kavanagh and Fergus Finaly have written accounts of their time in the Labour movement in recent years - both of them are still alive and breathing.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 15:48author address author phone

Well Written Comrade Dublin Exile. I knew that you read the odd book after all.

And Sherlock I have never sought a Dail nomination and said that I have a committment to Local Government. Glad to see that the people - you know those whom you lot pretend to have an interest in - have now re-elected me twice to the City Council. last time obligingly at the head of the poll. Honoured to that the Party James Connolly founded in 1912 selected me to run not once, not twice, but four times and will be looking for that nomination again - probably.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Tue Aug 23, 2005 17:10author address author phone

Connolly would be spinning in his grave if he saw what the labour party were like now. And soon the party will be nothing but a few tired old hacks like Dermo who never made it the dail and are bitter. Overtaken by Sinn Fein in electoral grounds we will then see them try to rush into coalition with FF to secure "power" and of course implement nothing for the people who they "represent". The labour party - a good reason to be an anarchist

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:35author address author phone

I always thought the best reason to be an anarchist was to be able to continuously bitch and whine about the ills of society without anyone ever expecting you to do a damn thing about it.

The second best reason is that you can bitch and whine about the organised left, some of whom then waste their time trying to argue their case with you instead of focussing on real issues.

The third best reason is that you will never ever have to be responsible for anything so no matter what initiative falls short or doesn't work out exactly as you would like, its not your fault.

Finally you never have to worry about the bothersome notions of party democracy, party policy or party loyalty - all of which are issues that real socialists have to deal with, even when on the losing side of an argument. But hey, instead of sticking with it and living to fight another day, you could always just throw your hands in the air and become an anarchist - is that what James Connolly would have done????

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:11author address author phone

The Labour party are an absolute disgrace and you and Dermo are proof that there is absolutely no fututre for the Labour party. Calling yourself a "real socialist" makes my side split with laughter. The sheer arrogance of asserting that you and Dermo are "real" while everyone else is fake shows that the standard of intelligence that you and Dermot have achieved is about the same as those who post on Nazi websites.

You and Dermot are pathetic excuses for activists. You wouldn't know "real" campaigns. Dermot is a pathetic excuse for a carrerist backed up by you an inexcusable disgrace for a "real" activist. But I wont get too upset Sinn Fein will overtake Labour and then Bye Bye to the "real socialists". And the working class had such hope in the Labour party. People understand how "real socialists" would go into coalition with Fine Gael. Ha haha haha haha hahah

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:14author address author phone

What Part of party loyalty and party policy was Dermo doing when he voted for the bin tax and broke party ranks and policy. Are you now saying he is not a "real socialist". Pathetic! At least you agree he is not

author by Sherlockpublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:25author address author phone

It is really is hard to believe that there is someone ( probabaly few enough in number) as pathetic as you are.

I have no apologies to make for using my casting vote to save Dublin City Council and avoid having a Commissioner appointed who would have abolished the waiver and increased steadily the charge to which you refer.

I was and am loyal to the values of social democracy that puts real people before idealogical nonsense first. Incidentaly was it part of SF policy to allow abstentions and absences to enable the vote go through or is it just me who can do no right. Well done again Dublin Exile as ususal you were spot on. They really would make you sick wouldn't they.

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:28author address author phone

What would you prefer Sherlock, Dubin to be run by the elected representatives of Dubliners, or some Commissioner, a bureucrat appointed by the Minister for the Environment at the time?

I live in a county where we have to pay for bin collection, why should Dublin be any different?

The principle of local democracy remaining in local hands overrode the issue of how to pay for bin collection. Dermot Lacey voted against the party whip and was subsequently disciplined by the party, but being decent man that he is he stook with the party, took his punishment, and continued to serve the people of pembroke who elected him - I suppose he could have thrown a hissy fit and stormed off into some anarchist nirvana camp but common sense, as it always has, prevailed.

author by 'Real' Dub - 'Real' Working Class - 'Real never been to unipublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:51author address author phone

Well done DE, thanks for exposing your complete ignorance on the subject.

"What would you prefer Sherlock, Dubin to be run by the elected representatives of Dubliners, or some Commissioner, a bureucrat appointed by the Minister for the Environment at the time?"

The cllrs don't run Dublin. Even Lacey admits this. Nearly all power has been taken out of their hands. Fitzgerald runs Dublin.

"I live in a county where we have to pay for bin collection, why should Dublin be any different?"

What a sad tired argument. How about I live in a county which has a corrupt police force or a country where petty theives have their hands cut off. Why shouldn't everywhere? Are you paying water charges?

"The principle of local democracy remaining in local hands overrode the issue of how to pay for bin collection. Dermot Lacey voted against the party whip and was subsequently disciplined by the party, but being decent man that he is he stook with the party, took his punishment, and continued to serve the people of pembroke who elected him - I suppose he could have thrown a hissy fit and stormed off into some anarchist nirvana camp but common sense, as it always has, prevailed."

Muppet if the cllrs can't have an input into the 'local bin service' then 'local democracy. is 'smoke and mirrors'. It doesn't exist. Dermot if this is the calibre of your support (that's if it's not one of your aliases no wonder you'll never get a Dail election nomination)

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:55author address author phone

You started off by saying "real socialists" were loyal to party and party policy. This wasn't the case with Dermo and now you try to track back. Dermo isn't a socialist, he's not even a social democrat. He is a carrerist. You are both sorry excuses for "activists". I am beginning to think that you are the same person and it is merely Dermo posting under a different name as surely there can't be two people as equally as thick posting on indymedia at exactly the same time.
The Labour Party - putting Fine Gael in power
Of course thats what "real socialists" would do

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:02author address author phone

That simply is not worth a reply. Total crap ( and thats a word a former Taoiseach used so hope you are not offended). Then again I don't really care about whether you are or not.


Whats this about a Dail nomination. My understanding is that at the next General Election in DSE we will be running one candidate. The outstanding Labour TD for the area for nearly thirty years Ruairi Quinn will be running. He has before and will have again my total suport. No secret there. I have never sought a Dail nomination.

I have sought a Local Government nomination and received it from the Party founded by Connolly and Larkin four times. You should try it "comrade".

Watching Strumpet City last night on dvd and was struck as to how honorable and committed to "doing a days work for a days pay" were those early champions of Labour and Trade Union movement. They truly were people to be admired unlike the incredible chancers on their middle class kicks routine who post as the far left here. Go on off and do something useful with your time.

author by Curiouspublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:40author address author phone

What are you employed as? When did you do an 'honest days' work last?

(1) Full time rep doesn't count in this question

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 13:01author address author phone

Yesterday I was in work from 9.25am to approximately 6.00pm. Today it will be 9.00am to approximately 9.30pm. Tomorrow i am not sure. August is traditionally a fairly quiet time and enables a lot of catching up, filing, replying to letters, some nonsense on indymedia and calling around to Constituents etc etc etc.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 13:02author address author phone

More crap from Dermo. What exactly is your job title in Labour?. Also this crap about how we should all try and run for elections is ridiculous in the extreme. You can't get a nomination for the Dail, why don't you try that, is it becuase you know your own party believes you wouldn't stand a chance of getting elected to the Dail? of course it is, you are a figure of fun amongst Dublin activists including many in the Labour Party. Stop trying to compare yourself to other people, people would be spinning in their graves to hear you. Also your arguments are the same spurious crap that right wingers use. How typical of the Labour Party. Grow a brain Dermo

author by Still curiouspublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 13:10author address author phone

... for not answering my simple question.
Am I to take it that you have never done an ordinary day's work in your life and yet you still feel justified to call other activists "incredible chancers on their middle class kicks routine"?
Your failure to answer a simple question puts you squarely in that category.

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 15:01author address author phone

Dermot and I are not the same person but we both get great craic out of lads like yourselves who are so pure and uncorrupted and are going to lead the risen people to the promised land (if only they could see the light like yourselves)

You see, ideological purity is only of interest to a tiny minority of people, what most people want is to have their lives enhanced and improved by politicians and the political process and vote for people who deliver to them on the ground. Thats why Labour, SF, and Greens, are 'players' and you guys are just ignored.

Except of course by me and dermot, after all now that coursing has been banned we have little else to do!

author by Real Dubpublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 15:03author address author phone

"Except of course by me and dermot, after all now that coursing has been banned we have little else to do!"

That's for f***ing sure! Lazy lardarses.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 15:10author address author phone

Pathetic. You go on about "real socialists" and then embarass yourselves. I am not talking about ideological purity . I am talking about Ideologoical consistency which is beyond your comprehension as is most things. The Labour Party and yourself are a disgrace. Sinn Fein will outstrip Labour very soon so Sinn Fein must be "realer socialists" according to your idiocy. The problem with "you guys" is you haven't a clue about anything. Same arguments as right wingers same intelligence as nazi's. Do you not have the intelligence to put forward a consistent coherent argument? obviously not, absolutely pathtetic

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 15:27author address author phone

I was not going to reply anymore but fair play to you Dublin Exile. I just could not resist the chance to say "Well done" and "Spot on". Will they ever ever learn.

I doubt it and thats what makes this "coursing" all the more fun. They take their political souls so seriously that surely they will go to Marxist heaven because they certainly won't make life any better here on earth.

Doing some work this afternoon in relation to 16 Moore Street in preparation for the meeting tonight. Have also made progress this morning on the housing co-op that will be providing about fourty homes shortly in the area, met residents in a Council Flats complex regarding refurbishment and parking problems and have got a few bob for some of the local youth groups. OOPS I did not read any of the prescribed texts. Must make amends tonight.

- Oh I also called down to the project I set up twenty years ago this year that has provided jobs and training for about two hundred people in that time of which I am Chairperson - though that was before I got into work this morning so maybe that doesn't count eh!!!!!!!!!

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 15:35author address author phone

I always wondered what exactly my problem was, now everything is so clear.

You are a giant of diagnostic knowfucology!

How can i ever thank you enough, i now see the error of my ways.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 15:46author address author phone

Perhaps you should get yourself a library card. Reading books will help you overcome your stupidity. It will be a long drawn out process, but with a lot of help and I mean a lot you might eventually garner some knowledge. Might.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 15:50author address author phone

Your inability to answer any question put to you shows how incredibly arrogant you are. To be so arrogant and yet so utterly useless is beyond my comprehension. Keep patting yourself on the back Dermo. You will never rise above where you are now and you will be forgotten very soon after you've gone. We can only wait in anticipation of your autobiography. I heard its the first autobiography completely made up of pictures. Don't hurt your brain too much

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 16:05author address author phone

keep hanging around Sherlock you are now even getting funny. I'll answer to my party and the electorate, and that includes the electorate on the numerous community action bodies that has elected me to their officer boards, any and every time. You should try it.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 16:12author address author phone

You lost the whip of your party for breaking ranks. This according to yourselves means that you are not a "real socialist". Added to this you keep on saying we should run for elections. Since you are so interested and keen on elections your life must not be worth living since you are deemed utterly unacceptable for a Dail nomination by the Labour party. Labour will be running two candidates in DSE neither of which will be you even if Ruairi Quinn doesn't run again. How pathtetic your life must be and how enriched must all those TD's lives be according to your outlook. Your arrogance is startling for someone so utterly incapable. Still keep up posting on indymedia it shows everyone what an idiot you truely are.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 16:35author address author phone


It seems to have passed by your brain (that is the dictionary word) that I have never claimed to be a Socialist ( certainly not in the narrow awfull manner that you lot mean by it anyway). I am not a Socialist. I do not claim to be one and in fact am opposed the sort of far left madness that you and your comrades go on with. Full stop. I am opposed to you - get the message.

Secondly, you seem to think you know more about DSE Labour Party than I do. I doubt it. I will be supporting and voting for Ruairi Quinn at the next General Election. I do believe in the importance of Local Government and have repeatedly said that I see a major role in that area in the future. Given your own clear disregard for electoral politics I am at a loss as to why you seem to think one area of that is better than the other. i don't.

have a nice day ( as you would probably think the Imperialists would say)

author by MVpublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 16:44author address author phone

Is this the same 'real socialist' Dermot Lacey that voted in the Bin Tax?
some principles huh?
with wespect,
Masters Voice

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 17:15author address author phone

So your not a socialist and you are opposed to socialists. Does the Labour party know this. People should email in the Labour party and ask them are they also opposed to socialists. What an utter moron you are.

It is you who are fascinated with elections not me, and it is you who will be dissappointed and never get elected to the Dail.

As for DSE Labour it wouldn't surprise anybody on this website that other Labour party members don't keep you informed, why would they, you are a waste of space

author by Dermot laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 17:46author address author phone

Perhaps you should learn to read before you write. While I am not a Socialist I admire and respect some of them - particulalrly those within the Labour Party. What I wrote was that I am opposed to the sort of far left socialists such as your goodself and I am and remain so. Thankfully I know a lot more about DSE Labour Party than you do and look forward to a long and happy involvement therein. Sleep well comrade.

author by Still curiouspublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 17:54author address author phone

If you can, any chance of answering my question. Have you ever had a job outside of being a full time Party rep? I genuinely don't know.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 18:03author address author phone

"I am not a Socialist. I do not claim to be one and in fact am opposed the sort of far left madness that you and your comrades go on with. Full stop. I am opposed to you - get the message."

These are your words Dermo. I can read, I have a brain and I am not an utter moron like yourself. You are obviously on the Brendan Howlin right wing of the party along with the other useless cretins. Labour claim to be socialist, in fact it is even on the website. You are not a socialist yet you are a rep for this party. You are a carrerist who is willing to ignore his "ideology" for his own benefit. You have repeatedly embarassed yourself on this website. You are utterly clueless, spineless and it is a disgrace for a "socialist" party to have you in it.

author by Dermot laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 18:19author address author phone

In answer to Still Curious I have worked at many different jobs since I left school in 1977. Like many people I could not afford to go to any Third Level College. Also like many people at the time I was unemployed for quite a long time in the 1980's.

In no particular order I have worked as a waiter in two Dublin hotels, a Lounge boy, ( new more PC name for it now), Stock Controller, youth worker, employment scheme manager, tiling company salesperson, assistant ( trainee) in architects practice, assistant to labour T.D. and for some time now various appointments within the Labour Party. I also worked/served as Lord Mayor of Dublin for a year - no doubt Sherlock will have his warped views on that one.

I have probably left out a few as during the 1980's you took any job you could get even for short periods in order to avoid having to sign on in that hell hole that was the Werberough Street Dole office.

Thats it really. Hope I have answered your question

author by Dermot laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 18:21author address author phone

In answer to Still Curious I have worked at many different jobs since I left school in 1977. Like many people I could not afford to go to any Third Level College. Also like many people at the time I was unemployed for quite a long time in the 1980's.

In no particular order I have worked as a waiter in two Dublin hotels, a Lounge boy, ( new more PC name for it now), Stock Controller, youth worker, employment scheme manager, tiling company salesperson, assistant ( trainee) in architects practice, assistant to labour T.D. and for some time now various appointments within the Labour Party. I also worked/served as Lord Mayor of Dublin for a year - no doubt Sherlock will have his warped views on that one.

I have probably left out a few as during the 1980's you took any job you could get even for short periods in order to avoid having to sign on in that hell hole that was the Werberough Street Dole office.

Thats it really. Hope I have answered your question

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 18:32author address author phone

Actually Dermo I am not warped and its typical of you to try and not deal with the issues. You became Lord Mayor due to a disgraceful braking of your party whip

Dermot Lacey - Labour's Royston Brady

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Wed Aug 24, 2005 19:42author address author phone

Factually you are wrong Sherlock. Better call in Dr. Watson.

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:44author address author phone

I think this thread is running out of steam, as i suspected Sherlock, like most intense young men of the 'left', has a limited sense of humour - probably too much reading instead of getting out and enjoying himself.

Anyway, have a look at the thread about the shinner youth painting the postboxes, it'll give you a good giggle - and these are the bright young politicos who are going to wipe the floor with us old farts!!

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:22author address author phone

What the hell are you like? What a ridiculuous two posts you have put up. You have absolutely nothing intelligent to add to this or indeed any debate. Pathetic waste of spaces. It is absolutely amazing that out of all those millions of sperms you two were the fastest.

author by Ian Brown - None - Labour voterpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:52author address author phone

Is this really Dermot Lacey the Labour cllr getting embroiled in a silly cyber row.
Dermot has the Olympia booked you for the pantomine season. Your endless 'oh yes it is', 'oh no it isn't' is a bit tedious, don't you think? I expect as much from some clown calling himself Sherlock Holmes but from an ex-Labour Lord Mayor. Grow up Dermot. I'm glad you are not the Labour option in my ward or constituency.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:21author address author phone

Fair enough comment Ian and I was getting a bit fed up with it myself.

However whether you agree with me or not I believe that the far left have done more damage to the interests of ordinary people than many others and their protestations of concerns are deeply annoying.

Sorry if I have offended a reasonable person.

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:54author address author phone

More nonsense. You have done far more damage by your actions. You are an arrogant, hypocritical disgrace. You are an embarrassment to most people I have talked to in the Labour Party. Still, Sinn Fein will soon overtake Labour

author by MVpublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 16:08author address author phone

'The Labour Party is a democratic Socialist Party, and through its membership of the party of European socialists and socialist international, is part of the international socialist movement.....'

So dermot you are not a socialist yet you claim membership of a supposedly socialist political party?

I would have thought your claims would justify your expulsion from this organisation.. or at the very least you would have the decency of leaving an allegedly socialist organisation

In the Labour Party constitution they claim to stand in the tradition of Larkin and Connolly..
Do you truly believe Dermot that these men would have voted for the Bin Tax?

with wespect
Masters Voice

author by Scrappy doopublication date Thu Aug 25, 2005 20:22author address author phone

How can his ex lordship dermy be in the Labour party if he refutes socialism?

author by Dublin Exilepublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:52author address author phone

The Labour party is a big tent, its membership includes both socialists and social democrats, thats our unique strength and why Labour is the only party of the left to have survived in electoral politics since before the foundation of the state.

Thats why at labour conferences, branch meetings and constituency meetings there are real debates on the issues, not just a lecture from some trot idealogue quoting long dead icons.

As for the bin tax - Larkin and Connolly would have been delighted if there were such a thing for the working classes of Ireland in the early 1900s as it would have meant that the local government was actually providing sanitary services, and maybe even decent running water to them.

At a time when child mortalitiy rates in Dublin were higher than anywhere else in the world, the idea that the people of Dublin would someday spend more every week on bubbly water than they were prepared to pay for basic sanitation services would have made their blood boil.

Further, they both knew that pickets and protests were tactics only and that to resolve any industrial or political dispute you had to negotiate, they also knew that there would be no advance for ordinary people until they started to elect their own representatives into public office - i'm sure they'd regard the street antics of todays anarchists as the self serving ,self indulgence that the rest of us can see it as.

author by John O'Connorpublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 13:35author address author phone

The labour party merged with Democratic left to form a new political party. This is what the two political parties at the time hyped up and heralded in, so it is a new political party and not an old one.

Absolutely wonderfull. Labour members can debate the issues and their leaders and cretins like Lacey can do exactly the opposite and ignore the members

Connolly and Larkin would have been against the bin tax. The Bin tax is a stealth tax, it is a regressive taxation no true socialist or even a true social democrat would vote for it.

All we see here is two Labour members one of them an elected rep posturing, spouting idiocy and holding absolutely everyone else in contempt. Anyone who disagree's with them is either a marxist or an anarchist which is exactly the same thing that Nazi's do. They are a disgrace. Complaints should be made about Lacey's behaviour to the Labour party. He is Labour's Royston Brady

author by Da Powerpublication date Fri Aug 26, 2005 17:07author address author phone

Well done to Dick Roche. Played a blinder yesterday.
Gypsy Lacey has no power. Just a pretend politician with a puffed up ego. Even his party don't take him seriously.

author by Leeroy Gonzalez - Labourpublication date Sat Aug 27, 2005 14:20author address author phone

Of course Larkin and Connolly would be delighted that the people of Dublin have access to proper sanitation, however im pretty sure that they would have argued that it be paid for progressively.

Progressive taxation means that people pay for a service at a cost that is consumerate wit their income it is much fairer. Regressive taxation is when people pay for the cost of a service at a flat rate, the current charges are unfair, because people on the average industrial wage pay 10 times more for service charges in real terms, than those on high income.

It is pointless that we remain opposed to the bin tax in principle, but vote to accept the estimates on the councils, this is costing us a lot of votes. We could have had two seats in tallaght central had we have come out opposed to the bin charges. We must get our finger out, we are letting the people down.

author by Dermot Laceypublication date Sun Aug 28, 2005 21:05author address author phone

My contributions on ths thread started out as an honest attempt by myself to update readers on the situation regarding 16 Moore Street. It soon degenerated into an irrelvant tirade on the issue of Local Government funding which unfortunately most of the posters don't seem to want to debate.

I have time after time expressed my view that a strong Local Government system with independent fund raising powers is in the best interests of ordinary people. I have also repeatedly exprssed my total opposition to the far left - incidentaly I do not include SF in that description. I am and probably always be a Social Democrat, if that puts me at odds with the "far left" so be it. However to be honest I find little value in debating anything with those who clearly have closed minds and fixed positions. Life is too short.

So on this issue and on this thread I sign off. To anyone that I have offended I apologise. I will continue to do my thing and let others do theirs. My cause continues to be the advancement of a better life for anyone that I can assist through, in particular, campaigning for a reformed, restructured and remapped system of Local Government.


author by Dermot Laceypublication date Fri Sep 02, 2005 18:12author address author phone

For those genuinely interested the City Council will debate a motion in my name next Monday seeking the listing of 16 Moore Street and seeking the support from the Dept of the Environment to ensure full protection.

The Lord Mayor has agreed to take this motion under Lord Mayors business which means that it will be dealt with at the beginning of the meeting.

author by support motionpublication date Sat Sep 03, 2005 15:54author address author phone

mick rafferty also has motion onthis subject

author by Red Alertpublication date Thu Nov 22, 2007 17:36author address author phone

..was alive today we wouldn't be having this discussion and the likes of Lacey, Costelloe and all the other hypocrites of genuine socialism would not be heard of. This would be a different and equal Ireland. In my opinion.

author by Hugh Murphy - Sacked by ITGWU and Belfast employers.publication date Thu Nov 22, 2007 23:06author address author phone

I thoroughly disagree with the decision to knock down the last HQ of the Republican Forces which established this Republic.

This house should remain intact - within whatever modern structures are built around it - as a testimony to the Socialist Republic they fought and died for and which was never achieved.

James Connolly was the greatest Socialist Thinker the world will ever see, and he saw the ITGWU as the vehicle to carry forth his ideas in an Ireland free from foreign interference.

Today, so-called socialists proclaim to follow his teachings yet prostitute everything he believed in by allowing themselves to be divided by capitalism.

Besides myself, 96 people have commented on this story. Not one of them has commented on the corruption of ITGWU and the cover-up by SIPTU - WHY...?

Are they not betraying Socialism and James Connolly by remaining silent...? Are the words and teachings of James Connolly not as important as where he spent his last hours of freedom...?

Unfortunately - in Ireland - Socialism is as dead as the GREAT JAMES CONNOLLY.

author by Cowardly Tom - Also sacked by ITGWUpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2007 19:07author address author phone

I wish 40 years ago I had supported Hughie Murphy. YES I freely admit that I was a coward BUT I was not a hypocrite.

The people writing into this page know exactly what they are. Where is the OUTRAGE against Siptu and ICTU. They fawn over employers lackeys in ICTU and Siptu and pretend they object to their tactics, while like me they're lookin out for their own skin.
At least, I knew my cowerdice against the union and employers was wrong, but I had a young family. Now they're reared and I'm still a coward - a drunk coward. We should have suppoeted Murphy he was right.
Watching from up here in Belfast I well know silence is acceptence, just like the silent people on this page know.

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