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Anti-poverty group to put "wrist-band" on Derry Walls

category derry | anti-capitalism | news report author Thursday May 26, 2005 06:10author by Joe C Report this post to the editors

Derry campaigners are to put an anti-poverty "wrist-band" around the City Walls next month in a gesture of solidarity with "Make Poverty History" demonstrations in Scotland.
Ta domhan eile ar an gcumas
Ta domhan eile ar an gcumas

The local group hopes that bands and street entertainers will perform at the "Band on the Walls" event on the afternoon of Saturday June 25th, as a white banner is wrapped around the parapet of the famous monument.

The event is part of the effort to pressurise the leaders of the world's richest nations, meeting on July 6th at Gleneagles in Scotland, to take decisive action to end poverty, particularly in Africa. A mass Make Poverty History (MPH) rally in Edinburgh on July 2nd is expected to draw huge numbers from around these islands and further afield.

The Derry group---the Derry MPH Committee---will be sending contingents to Edinburgh and also to a demonstration at Gleneagles as the leaders gather on July 6th.

Spokesman for the Derry group Eamonn McCann said yesterday: "There is a remarkably wide range of individuals and organisations working together on this issue in Scotland. NGOs and traditional anti-poverty campaigns have come together with a broad spectrum of political and cultural activists. We hope we can do the same here in the short time we have for organising."

"Already, a number of local bands have said that they will play on the Walls on the day. We also hope to have street entertainers, stalls of one sort and another and literature detailing the depth of the problem of poverty and the urgent need for radical action. We particularly hope that many young people will take part. We want to make a real impact and put the issue of global poverty and the demand for justice and equality before the Derry public directly.

"All support will be very welcome."

The group has invited everyone willing to become involved in Band on the Walls to attend a meeting at Badger's Bar, Orchard Street, at eight pm next Monday night, May 30th.

author by NGOpublication date Thu May 26, 2005 11:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Are you part of the affiliated Northern Ireland coalition or is this another SWP front using the MPH name to win recruits?
I am only saying because you do not mention the Belfast event on June 4th. This also has a remarkably wide range of individuals and organisations working together. Also with the SEA logo attached it seems Derry MPH is SEA AKA SWP.

author by starving babiespublication date Thu May 26, 2005 13:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

make poverty history seems to me to be another celebrity led PR effort which will achieve about as much as jubliee the same crowd marketed a few years ago. its the same gang, jeffrey sachs bono and the appalling geldof. iM surprised that people take this shit seriously after all the promises and booming record sales have turned to dust. Not surprised to see the swp getting involved though as there is a chance of it putting them in proximity to gullible youngsters on whom they prey.

author by confused derry campaignerpublication date Thu May 26, 2005 14:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Who are the MPH Derry commitee there is no reference to them on any of the make poverty history websites. Is Eamon McCann leader of MPH now?

author by Eyes Wide Open - MPH supporterpublication date Thu May 26, 2005 15:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Derry MPH is not affiliated to the Northern Ireland Make Poverty history coalition. MPH states that no political parties can get involved. Despite this E Mccann is the head of two political parties SWP and SEA and they even have the audacity to stick a SEA logo in the middle of the MPH statement! Imagine if a political group in Britain set up a respect group and a respect committee. Then used its name, associated events, gimmicks, and announced a MPH spokesman. All this without being affiliated to, or even having consulted the respect coalition. It would be seen clearly as to what it was, a bandwagon front. I agree, the fact that the N.Ireland Coalition's main event in Belfast was not even mentioned, says it all.

author by More eyes openedpublication date Thu May 26, 2005 16:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

A representative coalition takes a democratic decision. The SWP don't like it or cannot change it, so they ignore it. Welcome to working with the SWP

author by NGO - MPH Affiliatedpublication date Thu May 26, 2005 19:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I had thought Mr McCann was different from that, but it seems the SWP are no different where ever they are. I have no problem with anyone setting up a MPH group. Yet the undemocratic way they have approached it without even having the decency of contacting the MPH coalition, shows the SWP at is worst, or should I say best.
MPH had taken a conscious decision for our own reasons for no political affiliation yet this group has seen fit to ignore it. I have no doubt that the MPH coalition will be greatly disappointed and a number of political organisations angered, who had wanted to affiliate but could not .At least they had the decency to respect our democratic decision. Our organisation will have no part of it in Londonderry for those reasons.

author by Barrypublication date Thu May 26, 2005 20:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

insist on calling the place Londonderry is why people there dont want to talk to you ?

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Thu May 26, 2005 22:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Myself and Watson had a look at the MPH websites. All the members are listed.


MAKE POVERTY HISTORY NORTHERN IRELAND
participants

CHRISTIAN AID
NORTHERN IRELAND PUBLIC SERVICE ALLIANCE
STREET SEEN
TRÓCAIRE
NORTHERN IRELAND COUNCIL FOR VOLUNTARY ACTION
COMHLÁMH / ANTI-RACISM NETWORK
SEND MY FRIEND TO SCHOOL
TEAR FUND
IRISH CONGRESS OF TRADE UNIONS
CONCERN
QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY BELFAST CAMPAIGNING GROUP
NORTHERN IRELAND ANTI-POVERTY NETWORK
OXFAM
SAVE THE CHILDREN
WAR ON WANT

http://www.makepovertyhistory-ni.org

MAKE POVERTY HISTORY IRISH CAMPAIGN
Participants

ActionAid Ireland
Afri
AidLink
Children In Crossfire
Christian Aid
Church of Ireland Bishops' Appeal
Comhlámh
Concern
CORI Justice Commission
Debt & Development Coalition Ireland
Dóchas
EAPN Ireland
Fairtrade Mark Ireland
Friends of the Earth Ireland
Health & Development Network
IDEA
IFPA
IMU
Irish Congress of Trade Unions
Irish Anti-War Movement
KADE
Mercy Justice Office
National Youth Council of Ireland
Ocras International
Oxfam Ireland
Presentation Justice Network
The Rose Project
Skillshare International Ireland
Slí Eile
Street Seen
Suas
Sustainable Ireland
Trócaire.
UCD Development Studies
Centre
Union of Students in Ireland
WorldVision Ireland
Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice

http://www.makepovertyhistory.ie/about.html

Elementary my dear doubters;no SEA/SWP to be seen.
A sinister plot is afoot I suspect Mr. Watson

Related Link: http://www.makepovertyhistory.ie
author by a questionpublication date Thu May 26, 2005 22:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

what is it about MPH that attracts the SWP?

What do they get out of it? I know they issue hop like mad, but what do they get out hopping on this one?

author by Barrypublication date Fri May 27, 2005 01:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

just maybe ...as a left wing group they are highlighting poverty .

I think its nice of McCann to stick on some free music for people in Derry . Did you ever reckon theyre just doing it for a days crack as well ?

author by Anti Poverty Workerpublication date Fri May 27, 2005 14:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What they always look to get by bandwagon jumping, more papers sold and more recruits and media attention for themselves. Barry said 'just maybe ...as a left wing group they are highlighting poverty' Correct Barry, a left wing group who knew full well that the MPH organisation took a democratic decision not to have political affiliation. So what do the SWP do because they could not control it, what they always do, they ignore that democratic decision
Eyes wide open has said that they have used that name, associated events, gimmicks, and announced a MPH spokesman. This in E. McCann the leader of a political party and a Westminster candidate for another party. Then they go on to associate MPH directly with the SEA, a political organisation despite MPH's democratic decision against this. How opportunist and much clearer of the brushing aside of democratic decisions can you get. What gets me is how anyone could be that stupid giving the breath of organisations involved in MPH North and South shown above,who have probably all read this by now.

author by Darrenpublication date Fri May 27, 2005 14:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There has been no democracy in MPH - individuals can not come along and vote, meetings are not open. From its inception it has been a typical NGO approach. MPH has raised the issue of poverty and for that it must be congratulated but come on - making a democratic decision ? no way.
Don't forget these people are putting on a live aid concert on in London the same weekend as the protests begin against the G8. Don't tell me that was done democratically.

author by nerradpublication date Fri May 27, 2005 14:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There has been no democracy in SWP - individuals can not come along and vote, meetings are not open. From its inception it has been a typical party approach. SWP has raised the issue of poverty and for that it must be congratulated but come on - making a democratic decision ? no way.
Don't forget these people are putting on a political conference on in London the day after the blockade against the G8. Don't tell me that was done democratically.

author by Anti Poverty Workerpublication date Fri May 27, 2005 15:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The decision to have non party affiliation was taken and agreed by all those involved in MPH at the time. It was agreed to be part of MPH that you had to have non party affiliation. That is a condition on joining and hundreds of organisations have no problem with that. It is open to all non party organisations who want to fight poverty. Sadly the SWP/SEA and their various fronts could not abide by that democratic decision and therefore ignored it. They could have chosen of course to set up their own campaign, instead they choose to pretend to be the MPH campaign but as a front for their party. As the SWP would get little support for such a campaign on their own they bandwagon the MPH campaign. They ignored all democratic decisions that had been taken and then dressed them selves in the MPH clothes.

author by Darrenpublication date Fri May 27, 2005 16:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

How can a decision be democratic if the organisation excludes people and has never had an open meeting?

author by I knowpublication date Fri May 27, 2005 16:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

THe SWP are all the same

author by Barrypublication date Sat May 28, 2005 01:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Id say by fooling Derry people with this cheap charade McCann and his cronies are a fair bet for eventual world domination . Ill bet nobody in Derry even heard of the man or his outfit before this stunt .

The sneaky swine !!

author by NOpublication date Sat May 28, 2005 12:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Arrogance, and a boot into the ribs of democracy for good measure

author by Angrypublication date Sat May 28, 2005 16:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I too want to add my voice to the outrage expressed that a group of so-called socialists in Londonderry should organise a Band Around the Walls to highlight world poverty.
They have no right and all right-thinking people will agree that if the NGOs say No that must be respected.
It would be better that nothing is organised in Londonderry than that this self-appointed group of agitators should take it upon themselves to organise such an event. People need to respect the authority of the NGOs, Gordon Brown and the anarchist community who say with one word: Don't you dare protest!

author by yrgnapublication date Mon May 30, 2005 14:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I too want to add my voice to the outrage expressed that a group of so-called socialists in Londonderry should organise a Band Around the Walls to highlight world poverty for their own purposes.
They have no right and all right-thinking people say No that must be respected.
It would be better that nothing is organised in Londonderry by the SWP, that this self-appointed group of agitators should take it upon themselves to organise such an event so as to recruit.
People need to respect the authority of the NGOs, Gordon Brown and the anarchist community who say with one voice: We know what the SWP are attempting again.

author by Goretti Horgan - Socialist Environmental Alliancepublication date Mon May 30, 2005 14:53author email seaderry at aol dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

We were told about this thread last night and I was asked to log on and make it clear that the posting that starts this thread does not come from the SEA. We have checked and there is no Joe C. involved here. By putting the SEA logo as a heading, it gives completely the wrong impression of the the group that is organising G8 related events in Derry. The SEA is part of that group, but so are others, including people from the Derry Children's Commission, from Foyle Ethical Investment Campaign, Derry Anti War Coalition, young people from a number of schools, street theatre groups, artists etc.

Related Link: http://www.socialistenvironmentalalliance.org
author by sherlock holmespublication date Mon May 30, 2005 18:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

me thinks watson too little too late

author by redjadepublication date Mon May 30, 2005 18:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Anti-poverty bands made with forced labour, Oxfam says
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70044

"We were stupid," said Dominic Nutt at Christian Aid. "We didn't check it out, Cafod didn't check it out, and Oxfam didn't check it out."

----

what a f**k up.

author by shane ocurry - FEICpublication date Mon May 30, 2005 19:30author address feiconline.orgauthor phone Report this post to the editors

...starting with the NGOs, whose corporate logic has led them to apparently trademark the slogan "Make Poverty History" and make ludicrous demands of local groupings to ensure that the campaign is "branded correctly" (no kidding). We shouldn't be surprised at the NGO sector stifling initiative, marshalling activists and recuperating struggle to suit their vested interests. It's what they're best at. There is a long tradition here, and globally, of well-paid do-gooders diverting ordinary people's energy into projects for their own career advancement. Bonzo and Gelding's naked opportunism at Genoa is a prime example of this, the hi-jacking of the 'table campaign' around the time of the 1994 IRA cessation and the turning of it into yet another televisual celebrity top-down nonsense jamboree is another that springs to mind. There are many more. These people have to protect their careers, this cuts across whatever sincerity any individuals may have in wanting to bring about real change. That is why they are dancing to Gordon Brown's drumbeat, demanding that affiliates NOT make the link between poverty locally and, above all NOT MENTION THE WAR. It is also the reason behind the fact that there are THREE separate groups in Belfast, not talking to each other, organising separately for Scotland; the NGOs don't want to upset Gordon Brown by allowing political organisations that make the connections between the war, poverty locally and poverty globally. If they did this, they wouldn't get a slice of his aid budget to dispense in underdeveloped countries.

Also needing to wind their necks in are the politically sectarian (& politically inactive?) trolls having having a feeding frenzy on the SWP. I am not a member of the SWP and I have my criticisms of that organisation, but I will reserve those for the appropriate time and put them to them in a respectful and comradely manner. In the mean time I, along with other non-party activists on the Derry MPH committee will work with anyone who is not dancing to any of the G8 governments tunes and who is serious about developing a grassroots non-sectarian non-hierarchical movement to actually challenge the G8. The SWP members involved with the Derry MPH are doing just that. If they weren't, I wouldn't be working with them.

Also needing to wind his/her neck in is the shit-stirring muppet who posted the SEA logo along with the original posting .

Related Link: http://www.feiconline.org
author by Not this timepublication date Tue May 31, 2005 11:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Whatever about the logo the SEA MPH is not affiliated to the N.Ireland Coalition.. They did not even consult the main Coalition, and specifically appointed a spokesman who is a leading political figure in the SEA and SWP. This despite them knowing full well the MPH campaign’s position on such
The point is that the SWP knew that the MPH had decided on non party affiliation and went ahead with it despite this, this by appointing a leading politician as spokesman. They knew it was wrong and would not be agreed upon, so they attempted to by pass the coalition. .
A bit like when the SEA decided that the IRSP could not get involved in the SEA.
The IRSP who disagreed with the decision did at least go along with it, you know that old democracy thing and all that. Yet when the MPH decided not to invite 'any' political parties the SEA - SWP decided to ignore the MPH 'democratically decided decision.
Whatever you think of NGO's this is not the issue at account here. It is that a Coalition took a democratic decision not to have political affiliation. The SWP said go and fuck to that decision by using everything associated with the MPH without even contacting the MPH. Then to polish it of they appointed an MPH spokesman who is a well known political leader and election candidate from one particular organisation. This against the express wishes and democratic decision of the MPH. If the SEA or SWP want to go and organise something against poverty then that should be welcomed. But to do it under the banner of MPH and all that is associated with it. This when the MPH campaign of hundreds of organisations had agreed that there should be no political affiliated spokesmen or otherwise. Well it speaks for itself .
If the IRSP had of did that in relation to the SEA there would have been uproar and rightly so. It has shown that the SWP have not changed one bit and if anything got worse,and as Sherlock said it is to little to late. The have shit on the democratic wishes of an important coalition in this time, and that will not be tolerated amongst many of the activists organisations. More importantly though, it will not be forgotten. Shame on you

author by IPSC supporterpublication date Tue May 31, 2005 12:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why are you all so fucking surprised that the SWP have shit on majority decisons again. I suppose though people who have not come across the SWP and this behaviour before should know about it. Everyone on Indymedia I reckon probably knows already what they are like. Word going round though is forget the fknees they have shot themselves in the fucking head this time.

author by Mpublication date Tue May 31, 2005 12:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Once again - MPH was never set up democratically - it was set up by NGO's. Why is it not possible to set up your own MPH group anywhere? Isn't that the spirit of a grassroots campaign? And just because someone adds NI to the end of MPH doesn't mean they now have the basis for a campaign in every town in the North. You are hiding the politics of the NGO's who want to coopt the anti-poverty movement to govts and don't want to talk about the imperialism involved in poverty in the developing world.

author by Shane OCurry - FEIC (personal capacity)publication date Tue May 31, 2005 15:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Derry MPH includes republicans, anarchists, trades unionists, school pupils, musicians, builders, ngo workers, community workers and activists, artists... and have secured support across derry society; local business owners, the trades unions, musicians, theatres, pubs, the nerve centre, the Apprentice Boys of Derry, art galleries.... It really isn't just an SWP thing. In spite of the fact that you haven't been at any of the meetings, you insist it is.

Eamonn McCann was nominated as one of the three spokespersons, along with myself and Jim Keys (neither of us is in the SWP or SEA). It was about sharing tasks and getting work done in the short time available to us. McCann wrote the press releases because he had time and we didn't.

Lawrence McBride from Trócaire and hence MPH-NI (which M correctly points out was neither democratically set up nor has a mandate to dictate what local groups can or can't do) was invited to the original meeting out of which the Derry MPH was subsequently formed. He turned the invitation down because he had concerns about how we were branding the slogan "Make Poverty History" and because he was unhappy that we were making the link between poverty here in Ireland, the war in Iraq and the impoverishment of countries in the global South by the rich west, represented by the G8.

If MPH-NI have a problem with our approach and analysis, then that's their problem. Dissent don't have a problem with us, and neither does G8 Alternatives. Most importantly, neither do the people in Derry we are asking for support. We are not going to lose any sleep over not satisfying an official line foisted on us on behalf of Gordon Brown by the Quango troika. We have work to do.

Related Link: http://www.feiconline.org
author by Shane OCurry - FEIC (personal capacity)publication date Tue May 31, 2005 15:32author address comandante AT speedymail DOT orgauthor phone Report this post to the editors

for an interesting analysis of the role of NGOs in propping up Capital interests see the article by James Davis entitled "this is what Bureaucracy looks like" by following the link below.

http://slash.autonomedia.org/print.pl?sid=02/02/09/2019229

Related Link: http://slash.autonomedia.org/print.pl?sid=02/02/09/2019229
author by Not this timepublication date Tue May 31, 2005 16:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

My Friend - I would not mention names, whoever you think or know people are, as it could get people into serious trouble at work presently.

Whether you are right or wrong - the point is

And again the issue in point here - is

The democratic decision of the MPH was to not have party affiliation. The NI MPH which has not only NGO'S but, Trade Unions, the Trade Union Movement, the Anti Racism Movement, the Student Movement, the Community Sector Movement, amongst others involved had -

'ALL agreed and had ‘All’ collectively decided to work within that frame work'.

It is unfortunate that the SWP also now attempt to brush the N. Ireland coalition’s endorsement of that aside – while at the same time saying that there actually is no N. Ireland Coalition.

Again I am sure observers will see further the SWP intentions and way of working.

The N’ Ireland MPH Coalition members I am sure are prepared to work the majority decision and to put the interests of the campaign first unlike some.

In addition to this, ‘All’ the political parties {apart from the SEA and SWP} have stood by that democratic decision while still being supportive of it.

The SWP on the one hand when setting up an SEA alliance, as stated, voted to exclude the IRSP {whom I am no supporter of} - the IRSP nevertheless abided by that majority decision.

Then with the other hand the SWP ignored the democratic decision 'endorsed by the N. Ireland MPH alliance and all those organisations involved within it from around Northern Irish Society'

You can beat around the bush - but what the SEA {SWP} has done is to attempt to elbow out of the way a democratically decided decision. As stated, if the IRSP had of did that in relation to the SEA there would have been uproar and rightly so.

As you would be aware M the SEA {leading} individual SWP members within it, already had experience of overturning democratic decisions taken by a majority, as I had risen before - do you want me to go into it again on Indymedia?


As for not putting the point of Imperialism – war, linking in the local etc on such coalitions committees, well I would suggest you should start with your own NGO, members first.

My point has been made and we could go around in circles. What the SWP did was wrong, it will not be forgotten, and all of those of relevance, and more, know exactly what they have done.

Many activists in MPH, the SWP may not agree with politically, nevertheless their rights of voice and decisions agreed need to be respected. Therefore as I had said the last time - such will not happen again without a stand - not on my watch, not anymore. It seems the SWP cannot change, which is sad as thye hold so many good activists within their ranks.

To to be honest vierwers I am really Pissed off with it all. Although I am being contacted from around the Movements with 'What did you expect'.

But I should have known - and will recify our way of dealing with such organisations and their unchanging and undemocratic way of working

And finally Shane

'MPH-NI have a problem with our approach and analysis, then that's their problem'

No Shane - {Again - not the issue of concern here}

- If an organisation overturns a democratic decision as stated, {endorsed by the Northern Ireland MPH Coalition = - despite what you think - includes that of ' NO political affiliation'}, as above -

Then I believe its every Genuine activists problem - whether you have problems with part of there politics or not. If they do it here then they will do it again and again and again {who will be next}

Everyone has a right to their 'analysis' as you put it - but I disagree with the approach. It was undemocratic however way you gloss it up.

Indeed I had told many concerned that the response forthcoming would be 'we don't give a fuck’ and indeed I was right., as indeed I told them that you will not lose any sleep over it

And while many as you suggest support you again many I know believe what was done was wrong - that is the nature of things.

You and others believe you are right while I and others believe we are right {many of the same organisations in fact - but probably in different parts of the North}.

Indeed it was to those others that I had sought to reach out to and not those whom I already knew what their response would be.

You believe there was no democratic mandate -I know there was and is and will defend that.

I may not agree with some of their analysis but that will not ascend above their right to have a democratic decision and endorsement of that decision walked over.

It was wrong and I will say it was wrong even if it means standing that ground alone

{although in this case that is not an issue}.

And if such matters arise again I will be equally as determined to stand firm against it.

You seem to be so concentrated and so fixated Shane on your problem with the NGO's - that who knows though, that if you actually give it some thought you may be able to understand what I am actally saying

Whatever the case I have made my points and those of concern have made up their own minds - this long before any engagement took place in depth on Indymedia - but in large part how they had seen how the SWP had ignored their wishes -

and with now seeing them being told that they had no, have no, and cannot have any such democratic mandate { as shown by SEA actions and their supporters words} - this by those who had played little or no part in the actual Coalition???


ALSO - the attacks on the NGO's, the MPH network , the personal attacks on its activists etc {and with that all their supporters}etc - I believe is as ill thought out as the actual decison to stamp on the democtaric mandate of the MPH campaign-

What more is to be said - And so my case rests - Democrary eh - the SWP eh?


Finally -

the RALLY organised by the Northern Ireland Make Poverty History Coalition {affiliates as shown by Sherlock above} takes places at.

MOTIV8 4 G8

2pm - Saturday - June 4th

Customs House Square, Laganside, Belfast, Bring banners, friends and family and be part of a great day.



S - Off regulars will know who I am - back to work.

author by Shane OCurrypublication date Tue May 31, 2005 17:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I know that the NGOs would have preferred this, are you seriously telling me that's what you want?

On a lighter note. Bono caption competition. Answers on this thread please.

bono_bush.jpg

author by Ye know the craicpublication date Tue May 31, 2005 17:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You know it is not - There was another way.

I must dash Shane incase I get caught on computer.

Talk to you soon mate.

I will think of something for that caption.

All the best - Signing off. Robin Hood

author by Shane OCurry - going to lose my job too at this ratepublication date Tue May 31, 2005 19:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

...It is a feature of all Leninist organisations including the SWPand others like Sinn Fein and some green and social democratic parties. The SWP will argue that their democratic centralism is different from the others'. I disagree, probably for the same reason that the critics in this thread do. Also because I have seen it up close and it ain't pretty - I had the honour of being a member of the then SWM's NC (national committee) briefly in the early 1990s. I also dislike their fixation with recruitment which sometimes - but not always - overrides the need to build a campaign or movement. Their full-time paid organisers/recruiters (commissars?) invariably give me the hee-bee-jeebies, and I try to avoid them at all costs. In debates with my Derry comrades who are in the SWP, every last one of whom I respect and think are genuine socialists, they are very open about the fact thet their priority is building a Party and not a Movement. This follows from Lenin also. This, like democratic centralism, is where I disagree with them fundamentally. That is where we need to have a sober debate with them. My argument is that you can have a political line and the consistency necessary to have a unified impact without submitting to the dictatorship of the NC and Executive Committee - i would advocate something like the Anarchist platform as advocated by the WSM. An informed debate around this would be healthy for all involved. But we would have to deal with political sectarianism and ensure that it doesn't marr the debate.

Meanwhile, it's just me alone here in my anarchist tendency and I am not going to sit back and not get involved in an initiative because MPH have sent down an edict barring SWP members from joining. A meeting was called about the G8 to which everyone was (and still is) invited, including a representative from Make Poverty History NI. They didn't show, some SWPers did. They will doubtless be selling their papers on the day. I will be standing on my head distributing anarchist propaganda. Sinn Fein, if they show up, will be holding a white line picket, or lobbying through the Anglo-Irish secretariat or some nonsense. The SDLP and MPH will be touting regurgitated New Labour patronising charity neoliberal drivvel. Horses for courses.

However, I also have to state that my experience of the Derry SWP is hugely different from my experience of the SWP elsewhere - Dublin, London, Bradford - that this branch is by and large not politically sectarian, that it doesn't usually drive to recruit at all costs, that it respects the different political tendencies with which it works and in the main strives to build genuine coalitions. To my mind this is partly due to the strong tradition there is in Derry of activism and the large number non-aligned activists around them, and partly due to the experience and political maturity of their membership. There is also a strong sense that Derry branch is not afraid to tell the NC (politbureau) when to fuck off , that they know the score on the ground and that they are going to build relationships that work(although this is pure guesswork). The rest of the organisation would do well to take a leaf out of their book.

Sometimes the derry branch does take short cuts that have the effect of being democratic. We have all done the same, and as is the case with the rest of us there are people there ready to keep them in check. I have seen people criticise them, and I have seen them take stuff on board. No such sensitivity with one or two aspiring Trotskys of the people's vanguard I have come across elsewhere in the organisation.

My disagreements with the NGOs are much more fundamental, and my experience of the established ones are almost all negative. In the toss-up between a leninist party and corporate-structured charity I know which side I fall down on. At least you can have an argument with the derry SWP about democracy and organise with them non-hierarchically.

author by Goretti Horgan - SEA and SWP (personal capacity)publication date Tue May 31, 2005 20:42author address Derryauthor phone Report this post to the editors

Shane just sent round a list of all those involved in Derry MPH. SWP/SEA members amount to about one third - so why does "not this time" [fairly sure from the flowerly language who he is!] insist that the decision to set up a Derry MPH group that allowed SWP and SEA members to be involved was an SWP decision??

Rather, I think there was unanimity that no one should be excluded because of their political opinions - we had too much of that in the past here in the North. What matters is working together to try to end poverty - here as well as in the developing world. We [all at the meeting] did discuss the difficulties of breaking the Trademark that MPH has patented but all felt that it goes against the very spirit of the anti-capitalist movement to patent WORDS! As Shane said, we did invite an official MPH rep but got a phone call hours before the public meeting to say he wasn't coming. We could have said, oh dear, can't do anything without official backing but........we didn't.

BTW, the IRSP in itself was NOT excluded from joining the SEA - they just did not agree with the SEA line that paramilitarism is against the interests of the working class and so excluded themselves. It's a bit like saying that the Neo-cons have been excluded from MPH - there is no need to exclude them, since they don't agree with the basics!

author by lighter note.publication date Wed Jun 01, 2005 09:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"he's pretending to be Hitler
& I'm churchill."

author by Not this timepublication date Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Shane, like yourself, I to have a lot of personal support for various activists in the SWP and know how they work – especially having sat on all leadership bodies and meetings both in Ireland and further afield over time. That was why I was surprised at the Derry Branch - but was told by many what did you expect. As for sending down an edict, the Northern Ireland coalition is very representative as you can see and the issue of non Political affiliation was endorsed by all. As for the SWP full timers well on a personal note I can understand that, the new Northern Organiser at the time was a serious factor also in my leaving the SWP – but that is another story to be detailed at a later time.


Goretti you are just dancing around the issue. The MPH said that no political parties are to get involved - the SEA said the no one with links to paramilitaries should get involved.

The MPH made a decision - the SEA made a decision. The IRSP respected that majority decision - the SEA did not. It is as simple as that, and the crunch of the matter is, that it is seen in that light by many however way you dress it up. That is the reality and so you can either deal with that reality or attempt to create a different one

As stated the problem is not that an initiative was taken to set up an Anti Poverty campaign. But that a decision had been made, and endorsed by many, not to have any political affiliation. This as shown, {and as I knew and stated beforehand as to what your reactions would be}, seen dismissive ness of that decision.

Of course there are wider issues also at debate here on democratic centralism, democratic accountably, the MPH N Ireland coalition the SEA etc

While I have you here Goretti on the SEA, just for clarification, as there is some confusion around this, was all such groups with Paramilitary links excluded from the SEA?

At the end of the day people have made up their minds on this matter, I have made up mine, Shane his, Goretti yours and viewers will have did similar. More importantly though, many involved in MPH have made up theirs – and that is the nature of things.

Every organisation makes decisions to exclude some thing = may it be Parties, Anarchists, factions within parties, other parties in Coalitions or Alliances etc. So it is how one approaches this that is the issue

Therefore a further debate on this also would be worthwhile.

In conclusion I think you where wrong on your approach to this while you think you where right – that is the way it goes, and I will detail this in greater depth at a later date. I have to go now as my points are becoming repetitive and we could go around in circles all day – and people will have long made up their minds, Talk to you soon signing of this thread – Robin Hood

author by MCpublication date Wed Jun 01, 2005 17:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Didn't the SEA have an open conference at its launch and keeps an open door to any one agreeing with its political ideas. MPH-NI has never had a conference or any open meeting to scrutinise its 'decisions'. The rambler does present (as always) a circular argument. Perhaps the rambler can tell us (with all those hundreds of groups backing it) how many people were present at the meeting that decided no political groups? And how many were not in an NGO?

author by Shane OCurrypublication date Wed Jun 01, 2005 18:59author address comandante AT speedymail DOT orgauthor phone Report this post to the editors

I have received an email from Lawrence McBride of Trócaire asking me to rectify the reference to him in the comment I posted above.
Lawrence McBride said:
"I did not turn down the invitation to speak in Derry because I had concerns about branding or that I was unhappy about the event 'making the link' as you allege. Naming myself and my organisation, not to mention MPH, and proceeding to misrepresent our opinions or objectives is disingenuous. I don't believe that by contributing an opinion on this message board is going to further MPH or the apparent name calling between different 'political' elements and I would invite you to take your original posting down with a clarification and apology."

He explained that "As regards the invitation to Trocaire to attend the initial meeting in Derry:
I was explicitly invited to speak by **** as a Trocaire representative who was also a member of MPH. I requested a copy of the publicity for the event and on the basis that there was no clear demarcation between who was speaking on or representing the different campaigns on the poster- or that Trocaire could be named in other publicity without it being clearly distinguished that we were not speaking or appearing on behalf of all the campaigns or slogans mentionned, the invitation was respectfully declined… ...Trocaire supports the Stop the War campaign and Make Poverty History but does not with have any affiliation with a 'Stop the G8' campaign. "

I trust this clarifies his and Trócaire's position and MPH's and apologise for any misrepresentation of his or any organisation's position, which was unintentional.

Lawrence McBride also said:
"Anyone can obviously support MPH. Political parties or members of political parties however cannot affiliate to or join the campaign. Many have asked to do so and the response is that their public support is most welcome but that the campaign is independant of political parties. This is to prevent people identifying the campaign with any party's policies- both on overseas issues and domestic ones.

Political representatives or parties can therefore take actions that demonstrate support for the campaign while underlining that it is an independant campaign.

There are many groups like the Derry one up and down the country organsing events in support of Make Poverty History. The coalition is happy to support them in any way they can with information. We recognise that organisers have their own motivations and messages they want to put across. However, by and large the policy messages of Make Poverty History are clear- with asks on International Trade, Overseas Aid and Third World Debt outlined on documents accessible through www.makepovertyhistory.org.

If organisers do not agree with these objectives or see them as contradictory to their own messaging, it is a matter of responsibility to the public to distinguish their events/statements from the policies outlined and supported by Make Poverty History.

The procedure for joining Make Poverty History in NI is to affiliate to the campaign through BOND, the UK NGO network. The administrators or co-ordination team of MPH considers the application and approves it providing the aims of the applicant do not contravene some basic requirements- including political affiliation. Members of the campaign are entitled to use the 'branding', including logo, in their PR, to demonstrate their affiliation and support of the objectives of the campaign. Members are also invited to financially contribute, where possible, to the overall campaign to support its adminstration."

I will leave it to readers to decide for themselves how to interpret MPH's position on members of political parties joining, on their decision making process, and on their branding of the phrase "Make Poverty History"

author by seanpublication date Thu Jun 02, 2005 15:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I totally agree with the setting up of another anti-poverty campaign. I think the big problem here is that the derry committee decided to use the name Make Poverty History. I can see their reasons for doing this but it only serves to create confusion for some people. The fact is that Make Poverty History is not just "words" but is an organisation that has worked hard to build. Personally, I would have a problem with Make Poverty History not discussing the war etc like those in Derry do but that doesnt give us the right to do whatever we want. Its simply a matter of respect for the people involved in it and the direction that they wish to go on

author by confusedpublication date Thu Jun 02, 2005 15:28author address Belfastauthor phone Report this post to the editors

MPH certainly imply in a lot of its literature, on the website etc. that Blair and Gordon Brown are at least 'supporters' - so maybe it depends on which political party you're a member of??

author by Goretti Horgan - SEA and SWPpublication date Thu Jun 02, 2005 15:54author address Derryauthor phone Report this post to the editors

I find it difficult to respond to ‘not this time’ - I dislike anonymous posters. However, I will repeat: the SEA or the SWP or any other political grouping did not set up the Derry MPH group. A public meeting was organised by a few people, including Shane and myself - and it was NOT called as a Make Poverty History meeting, rather the poster listed a series of issues: Stop the G8, Stop the War and Make Poverty History (but no MPH logo). The meeting then decided to set up a Derry Making Poverty History group which had as its main aim highlighting the G8 issues locally and getting people to Edinburgh and/or Gleneagles depending on what their own passions are. I think that Davy, sorry, ‘not this time‘, is trying to say that there is some underhand agenda here because it suits his own agenda. There isn’t. Anyone active in Derry will, I hope, agree with that.

The question remains: would it be better not to have any events in Derry than to have involvement by SWP and SEA members in organising these events? As it happens, others in MPH in Belfast do not seem to have any problem with what is happening in Derry as MPH Belfast contacted us yesterday, via the SEA website to offer support! I think this confirms that this whole issue is manufactured to try to get at the SEA or SWP, rather than having anything to do with real concern for the issues. And I do think the time we are spending in front of computers on this would be better spent in getting around the trade unions, community groups, schools, choirs, bands etc that we need to in order to make sure the issues ARE highlighted.

To respond directly to the direct question about any groups being excluded or not by the SEA, right from its initial meeting, opposition to paramilitarism, not for moral reasons - but because they are a block on working class self-activity - has been part of the SEA’s basic agenda. Groups continuing to see a role for self-appointed police forces (since that is what most/all of them are these days) therefore excluded themselves. There were talks between a number of the left groups, of which the SEA was one, to which a broad invitation was extended and that included the Workers Party (who deny any remaining links to paramilitary groups, although that may be a lie). However, it is clear from the politics of the SEA that it would be impossible for a group that has a paramilitary wing to be part of our alliance. See www.socialistenvironmentalalliance.org for details of why this is clearly the case.

author by Major Woody - SWP (Socialists Worker Party)publication date Thu Jun 02, 2005 16:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Goretti at the bottom of it all there seem to be two reasons for all the misunderstanding of this thread

1. That this Derry group choose a name very similar but not quite identical to the 'Make Poverty History' that has being getting all the media attention.

It's probably not the fault of the commentators above that they didn't realise Making Poverty History (Derry) is not Make Povery History. Just as if I announced the formation of the Socialists Worker Party you might feel a little hard done by.

2. The original announcement posted (it seems by a well known Dublin SWP member) is almost crafted to further this misunderstanding. It only refers to the Derry group as MPH and this after putting (MPH) in initials after Make Poverty History.

All the hot air that has been wasted on this misunderstanding could perhaps suggest in future that people be a bit more careful in not using names that could be misunderstood as referring to some other organisation. All the more so if as here it is an organisation they have obvious problems with.

Or if they are choosing such name delibretely for whatever reason they at least then don't turn around and have a go at other people for being confused.

----

Frankly I think its absurd to call on the G8 to 'Make Poverty History'. It's a bit like calling on the meat industry to promote vegetarianism!

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Thu Jun 02, 2005 16:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mr. Watson, who is this MPH Belfast that has contacted the SEA/SWP is this the same original MPHNI or is there indeed another group formed? Tune into the latest case of semantics and twists in this riveting case of rebutal and denial!

Related Link: http://www.makepovertyhistory-ni.org
author by Not this timepublication date Thu Jun 02, 2005 16:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yes Gorretti who is the Belfast Make Poverty History Group. I know only of the Northern Ireland Make Poverty History Coalition and the Derry Group? And I know that the MPH NI had agreed a response to what Derry had done.

As for the Belfast MPH contacting you Jesus I hope the SWP have not went and done it again and set up something else. Can you confirm this?.

As stated , as for publicity I think you need to keep an eye on the upcoming politic affairs and radio programmes etc in the next day or to.

As for this whole thing being ‘manufactured’ and then just ‘confused’ that really really sums it all up. You shit on a decision taken and endorsed by a whole host of organisations and Movements and now try to pretend it didn't even happen!!!

Classic absolutely Classic.

PS Gorretti you where expressly asked to not mention names {as regular viewers would know who some people where} as it could get people into serious trouble {as was stated} – yet you when ahead and mentioned a left wing activist's name with possible serious reprecussions

– What more is to be said.

Again, as was said, that also will not be forgotten. as well as documented at a later date..

author by Gorettipublication date Thu Jun 02, 2005 21:07author address Derryauthor phone Report this post to the editors

And it seems people do not make any attempt to answer any points seriously, so this is not only my last posting, but there’s no point in addressing any more postings to me since I won’t even read it. A few points:
1. The Derry group is NOT an SWP group, it is broadbased and members of political groups make up no more than one third. All decisions so far have been taken by consensus, so no question of any group running it.
2. The "MAKING Poverty History" thing was a bit of a joke (tho' most people who post here seem to have a humour by-pass!). We make it clear in all our literature, posters, leaflets, statements, that we are not an "official" MPH group, so no one is misled. Check the Derry papers www.derryjournal.com and www.derrynews.net if you don't believe me.
3. Apologies to MPH -NI for describing the group as Belfast MPH but, as the only NI event the MPH-NI website has on it is Sat’s Belfast event, I suppose we do think of it as Belfast MPH.
4. I never stated, or saw anyone else stating that no names should be mentioned. All the Derry MPH people posting here have used their own names and given email addresses. Anyway, how could naming someone get them in trouble - unless they are doing something dishonest or at least dodgy??
5. The allegation that the original posting with the SEA logo attached was by ‘a leading Dublin SWP member’ just confirms my suspicion that it was a shit-stirrer that posted it. Joe Carolan did used to post here as Joe c but Joe moved to New Zealand recently – which is how I knew it couldn’t have been him. Of course, people who left the SWP a while back would not have known that bit of info:-)
6. I repeat: would it have been better to go along with the official MPH line, keep out people with political affiliations and not have anything happen in Derry? That remains the question that no one who has problems with what's happening in Derry has answered.

author by Badmanpublication date Thu Jun 02, 2005 22:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Their idea of 'protest' amounts to doing everything possible to stay 'onside' with the powerful, while doing just as much to attack anybody who might undermine the cosy relationship they would like to build (but never will due to their self-indulgent and simple-minded analysis of power).

At virtually every summit protest ever, you will find NGO spokespeople talking about the protesters in much more vituperative language than they would dare to use about the leaders, with whom they must keep channels of dialogue open. They fall over themselves to be invited to play court jesters to the powerful at these summits while they refuse to even talk to anybody who is capable of seeing how futile, self agrandising and counter-productive their approach is.

The MPH campaign is a particularly pathetic example. They ban members of political parties, copyright their logos and enforce strict discipline on the use of their effing slogans. To top it all off, they claim that they very people who spend their working hours making decisions that make africa poor are part of the solution. They try to turn political protest into a PR event for them, their celebrity friends and their philanthropic egoes.

author by Major Woodypublication date Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Just so its clear I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Socialist Workers Party.

And although you may not be aware of it this internet thing is global so it would be quite possible to post to indymedia.ie from New Zealand.

The idea that the posting of the original artilce with the SEA logo is an anti-SWP plot is a bit weird. If you look at the time the original article was first posted you will see it was 5.10 in the morning Irish time. I'd suggest this would be a very odd hour indeed for anyone in Ireland to be online but quite a reasonable hour for someone in New Zealand to be online. It would be around tea time there I think.

Using Mr Occams razor I'd suggest that the most likely explanation is that things are as they appear and that Joe C posted this item from New Zealand. The alternative explanation that someone got up at 5 in the morning to pull a fairly obscure sting on the SWP in not all that credible.

Apart from that complaining about people not getting the joke is the last resort of those who tell jokes that were not all that funny in the first place. That isn't any sort of crime of course but ranting at people for not getting it should be.

author by Not this timepublication date Fri Jun 03, 2005 14:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Gorretti -

Most of you points can all be referenced via my previous points.


As stated what the SEA did was undemocratic and is seen in that light by many. You believe it was not - that is you right -but it doesn't change how many many feel about what you did - and how they will feel in future workings with you.,


Quote - 'Anyway, how could naming someone get them in trouble - unless they are doing something dishonest or at least dodgy??

That is an absolutely Unbelievable statement from a Socialist – especially from the North - Whether you are a Director or not

Therefore I will put it as simply as I can -

There are the workers and there are the bosses.

The workers work for the bosses.

The bosses want to get as much work of them for as little pay as possible.

So if a worker uses that period not to work for the boss {IE going on Indymedia} and they where named, and this passed on to the boss, then that worker could loss his Job.

{More especially if it is a boss who hates left wingers}


Therefore when it is expressly asked not to put the bosses interest above the workers then most on this site would side with that.

Unfortunately you chose not to.- and as stated, that also will not be forgotten.

I will do a detailed article of the MPH NI 'in its totality' and fill in the blanks for left activists - after Xmas sometime.

Note - Massive press interest starting - TV interviews - TV political affairs programmes, extensive Radio bulletins, and radio interviews, current affairs shows Newspaper articles etc

Must go as loads of work to be done. All my points have been made and as stated will detail in its - totality- the North of Ireland MPH Coalition etc after Xmas.

Signing of most definitely for Good. Robin Hood

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Fri Jun 03, 2005 18:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Two days ago the first meeting of SEA (Dublin branch) took place. We would like to distance ourselves from what SEA Derry did in relation to MPH. We would like to point out that we have nothing to do with SEA Derry (unless we can get members or publicity out of such an association). We will be discussing MPH at our next meeting on the 17th of June. We will publish details here of the next meeting.

author by Shane OCurry - Making Poverty History, Derrypublication date Mon Jun 06, 2005 16:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Can you not find a more constructive way to make your point?

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Mon Jun 06, 2005 17:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Aha Watson, the game is afoot, The evidence is there
From SWP Party notes, 31 May 2005:

Saturday’s MPH demonstration is going to be absolutely massive. But it is clear that Brown is trying to use Edinburgh as a stepping-stone to becoming the next prime minister.
We want to be a central part of the demonstration, but we also have to be prepared to raise Labour’s real record on Africa, poverty and war.
Our slogan has to be Make Poverty History, Make War History.
This is not a sectarian point, a growing number of NGO’s and anti-capitalist activists are critical of Brown’s agenda and tens of thousands of young people going to Edinburgh will draw the same conclusion about poverty and war.
* Transport - It is important that as many comrades as possible get booked onto the MPH travel. It is vital that we cover the transport on the way up and on the way back from the demonstration. We are asking all members from Birmingham northwards to book transport so that they can go on the Wednesday protest.
* MPH are organising meetings and rallies all over the country. We should be intervening in these meetings and organising our own MPH meetings in workplaces, colleges and schools.
The masters voice has spoken!
Mr. Watson you just couldnt make it up!

author by OMGpublication date Tue Jun 07, 2005 16:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

cant say i am surprised with SWP hijack tactics more of the same old story again.
How shallow can they go
thanks Sherlock for exposing the truth

author by Not this time indeedpublication date Tue Jun 07, 2005 17:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

...no this time is now soudning like a crazed looney! YOu are losing it- They're out to get me- get over yourself.

author by Tim Henmanpublication date Tue Jun 07, 2005 18:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No the SWP have lost it, game set and match. Whats is the matter the SWP ask in giving names are you fucking serious

author by Pat Cashpublication date Tue Jun 07, 2005 22:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I hear the Derry SWP eat babies? Any truth the rumours? I demand answers. Maybe, London sent orders for compulsory baby eating?

author by Sherlock Holmespublication date Wed Jun 08, 2005 00:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

My dear Watson are the SWP deflecting direct proof of London Control of the so called autonomous Irish SWP by trying to be witty. Their wit is somewhat like their political manoevres:obvious and feeble.
SWP babyeaters indeed, that would imply independent thought. and a break from party policy. As we know Watson, my dear friend, something that SWP members lack in abundance.
The plot thickens. Maybe we will await some brave SWP member refuting their orders to infilitrate the MPH movement. Or maybe defending their London Masters voice
The proof is there, why the silence, why the lack of denial, why do we even care.
Has the SWP truly became the white elephant of the Left,
Will Mr. Rees absorb the party into the true revolutionary leadership of Galloways RRRRRespect.
Mr Watson the truth is out there!
Can you imagine the fun to be had on the SWP bus to Scotland, please pass the opium watson I believe we will need it!

author by Devil Dogpublication date Wed Jun 08, 2005 00:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

you're going to use literary refernces, get them right - it's Dr Watson.

author by Sherlockpublication date Wed Jun 08, 2005 00:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He was a Dr until I demoted him recently in order for him to appear more working class. Nevertheless he still practices as little medicine as ever other than sourcing me some top class opium to numb my senses so I can endure the latest Social wannabe Worker paper which must be out soon proclaiming their leadership of the makepovertyhistory movement

author by DJB - Software Manufacturers Federationpublication date Wed Jun 08, 2005 14:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

How dare anyone take MPH logo, trademark, creative artifact in vain.
I applaud "not this time" and Sherlock Holmes's (and others) stout defence of intellectual property rights. After all isn't this what the G8 is all about? My friends in Shell tell me thay are most put out by assorted hijackers using their logo for purposes other than enhancing shareholder value. And my coleagues at Coca Cola are similarly discommoded by use of their trademark (internationally registered no less) by trots and ne'er-do-wells to further so-called trade union rights.
I am glad that "not this time" has now joined us in this attack on "activists". "NTT" and I may have our disagreements over exactly how capitalism should work, but its heartwarming to see we can defend each others' interests.
Just an aside NTT: don't post at work, it encourages others to slack and before you know it our dividends will take a hit.

author by seánpublication date Wed Jun 08, 2005 17:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

bla bla bla bla bla. Do you bastards ever shut up. Look sherlok homes, your not funny your a bore and the rest of you are so petty just get on with your own lives if you hate each other so much

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