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Search words: shannon

Irish Embassy In London Occupied By Anti-War Protesters

category national | anti-war / imperialism | feature author Wednesday March 02, 2005 20:00author by Karen Fallon - Pitstop Ploughshares/Faslane Peace Camp/Trident Ploughshares/Greenpeace Report this post to the editors

“Prevention of a War Crime is not a Crime"

British anti-war activists occupied the Irish Embassy in London today to protest the possible ten year jail sentence facing Ireland's Pitstop Ploughshares defendants when they go on trial in an Irish court on March 7th.

The criminal charges facing the Irish peace activists (Deirdre Clancy, Nuin Dunlop, Karen Fallon, Damien Moran & Ciaron O'Reilly) arise out of their non-violently disarming a US Navy Plane at shannon Airport on Feb 3rd 2003.

This highly popular action had an immediate positive effect in reducing Ireland's complicity in war crimes as it led to a withdrawal (at that time) from Ireland of three of the four companies contracted to freight US troops and weapons through shannon airport.

The Irish Government continues to facilitate the US Military at shannon Airport with thousands of US troops transiting through shannon to and from Iraq each month. From the newswire:

Just after the embassy opened for business, the protestors peacefully chained themselves together inside of the building in Grosvenor Place, whilst others have hung a banner reading, “PITSTOP PLOUGHSHARES: NOT GUILTY” outside.

Joss Garman, speaking for the demonstrators, explained, “The Pitstop Ploughshares - who damaged the plane at shannon airport - acted to uphold International Law, and to prevent Irish complicity in genocide. Far from breaking the law, they were upholding it, because the war in Iraq was clearly illegal. It clearly isn’t right that peace campaigners should face years in prison, whilst Bertie Ahern remains at large.

He added, “We wanted to add our voices to those of Desmond Tutu and Martin Sheen, in proclaiming, “Prevention of a war crime is not a crime.” In many ways, the runway at shannon airport could be compared to the railroad to Auschwitz, after all, 100,000 people are dead.”

For information/interviews:
Joss Garman 07815 004 578
warontrial.com
tridentploughshares.org

For professional photographs and video footage: Hugh Warwick 07815 042 452

Mainstream Media Coverage Here

author by Justin Morahan - Peace Peoplepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This story was carried on Newstalk 106 on the ten o'clock bulletin.

It's nice that the Pitstop Ploughshares get such strong support from our London friends. It's also good that Irish people in London will be made more aware of what happened and continues to happen here. The trial provides a new focus for examining Ireland's shocking participation in this outrageous war and occupation by allowing killer US planes to use Shannon airport without inspection of cargo.

It's outrageous that Donald Rumsfeld could openly address US troops in the lounge of this Irish airport, having given permission previously to use torture techniques on prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. The show trials of the soldiers who carried out his orders are a mockery of justice - he and Bush and Cheney should be in the dock instead.

Our Government showed inexcusable weakness in going along with the Bush/Neo-con agenda. It appears that a St Patrcik's festival threat from the US President to the effect that fobidding the use of the airport to US troops would be a "hostile act" did the trick.

Other Governments are still showing weakness in the face of the new Bush doctrine that he must spread freedom (of the Abu Graib and Guantanamo brand) around the world. Is there no world leader who will look him in the eye and say No to his agenda?

Cheers to the London anti-war brigade and Pitstop Ploughshares supporters.

author by solidarity!publication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If you're in London you can get to the Irish embassy to the Court of St James, by walking up from Victoria station to the back of Buckingham palace and you'll find the embassy on the corner.
Nice bit of town. Rents a bit steep though. Wouldn't mind being put under house arrest in a house that size. Now being under house arrest in a cardboard box would be a bit different.
The War on Iraq broke international law.
Blair seems to break international law with impunity.
He has mocked everything we are supposed to value.

author by Tim Houriganpublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 13:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If you're Irish and living in Dublin, you had easier access to some interesting information about Irish govt complicity with Bush's slaughter in Iraq.

The UK paper, THE INDEPENDENT did a piece about the Dodgy dossier.

In one part of the article, it mentions how the dossier was received in Dublin (Ireland still had a temporary seat on the UN security council at the time)
The technical experts at the Department of Foreign Affairs said that the dossier was not credible for "technical and political reasons"
This was not reported in the Irish media, and the government kept parroting on about hoping Iraq would disarm it's WMD, and thus avoid the US assault - which used Shannon airport -even though they KNEW the WMD dossier was a steaming dunghill.

And if you have access to Channel 4, you mayhave seen last nights programme on extra-ordinary renditions involving the CIA planes spotted at bases around the UK and also at Shannon and Dublin.

These flights have received lots of coverage in several UK newspapers too.

In Ireland, they have hardly been mentioned on TV or radio (with the exception of Clare FM).

This lack of important information is undemocratic, and helped of course in the conviction of Mary Kelly, who was not allowed to raise the 'Irrelevant issues' of people being killed in Iraq, troops coming through Shannon etc, during her trial.
So instead of seeing her act as 'pre-emptive nursing' (trying to help the Iraqis BEFORE they get their arms and legs blown off by weapons that come through Shannon) the state tried to present it as vandalism of a machine without any context -therefore absolving the state of any guilt for the maiming and killing of over a hundred thousand people.

And of course, while failing to condemn the occupation of Iraq, the Irish govt, will no doubt use very strong terms to describe the people who now occupy the embassy to highlight an injustice.
Of course, if the lads chained up in the embassy formed declared themselves returning exiles and set up an 'interim provisional authority' to run the embassy and started selling off the silverware to Halliburton... that would be a bit too much like the real deal.

Who said irony was dead?

author by Ed Burkepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 13:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

By occupying an Irish embassy and getting on the nerves of a few resident auld fellas looking to reprocess their passports...and getting on Newtalk lest we forget...do you not think your priorities are a little skewed. Ok so a lot of countries are quite complicit in abetting the war in Iraq, but I don't see anybody occupying the Polish/Ukranian/El Salvadorian/Dutch embassies and those of other nations with troops active in the occupation of Iraq....when's the last time you guys bothered to give the British embassy on Merrion Road a good proper lefty egging?

Sweden supplied the German war effort with steel during the 2nd World War and allowed them certain military privileges...but as for protesting against a German war effort by occupying the Swedish embassy, well that would have been laughable -
unfortunately Germany wouldn't have withdrawn out of Poland beacause their military procurement attache was expelled from Stockholm - no, in times of war, people should really priortise the direction of their protests

'Bertie remains at large' - I particularly loved that one, an image came into my mind of Carla Del Ponte from the ICC knocking on St. Luke's in Drumcondra...that's priceless - keep it up!

author by Joss Garman - Ploughshares (UK)publication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 13:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

PRESS RELEASE: 2nd March

Update: IRISH EMBASSY OCCUPATION ENDS WITH ARRESTS

Five anti-war activists who this morning barricaded themselves into the Irish Embassy in London have been arrested. The occupation of the embassy, which lasted two and a half hours, was in protest against Irish support for the war in Iraq. They were arrested for ‘trespassing on diplomatic premises.’

More specifically, the demonstrators from Ploughshares were demanding that the Irish government drop charges being held against the ‘Pitstop Ploughshares’ for disarmament of US Navy Plane, refueling at Shannon Airport, which was headed to Iraq.

A spokesperson for the group, Joss Garman, said, “This morning the protestors spoke with the ambassador and called for an end to Irish complicity in this illegal and bloody war.”

He added, “The Pitstop Ploughshares tried to prevent genocide, and uphold international law. Whilst they face prison, the real criminals like Bertie Ahern, remain at large.”

For interviews/information:
Joss Garman 07815 004 578
www.warontrial.com
www.tridentploughshares.org

For professional photographs:
Hugh Warwick 07815 042 452

Notes:
The activists who occupied the embassy this morning were:
Milan Rai, Richard George, Bill Dawbarn, Maureen Ukairo and Zelda Jeffers
They are being held at Belgravia Police Station in central London, and are expected to be released later today.

- ENDS -

Related Link: http://www.warontrial.com
author by redjadepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 14:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

[ publishing all due to pay-for site: ireland.com ]

Anti-war protesters raid Irish Embassy
By Eoin Burke Kennedy Last updated: 02-03-05, 10:38
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0302/breaking29.htm

Five anti-war activists have chained themselves inside the Irish Embassy in London in protest at the upcoming trial of those charged with damaging a US military aircraft at Shannon Airport.

The three men and two women forced their way through a set of security doors at the Grosvenor Place address just after the Embassy opened for business this morning.

One man chained himself to the doors while the others chained themselves together.

An Embassy official said the protest was peaceful and the group were calmly negotiating with police.

He said they had handed in letter of protest to Embassy officials claiming that those on trial for damaging the US aircraft had been upholding international law and that the charges should be dropped.

The letter is also understood to accuse the Government of breaching its long-standing neutrality by allowing US military aircraft land in Shannon.

Outside the Embassy a number of demonstrators held a large banner reading 'Pitstop Ploughshares: Not Guilty'.

A spokesman said: "The Pitstop Ploughshares - who damaged the plane at Shannon airport — acted to uphold International Law, and to prevent Irish complicity in genocide."

Five members of the international Catholic Worker Movement are due court next week charged with causing criminal damage to a US plane at Shannon on February 3rd, 2003.

The five - Karen Fallon, Ciaron O'Reilly, Damien Moran, Nuin Dunlop and Deirdre Clancy - are to appear in a Dublin court on March 7th next.

author by redjadepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 14:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Five arrested at Irish embassy in London
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0302/shannon.html

Protesters chain themselves to embassy
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/londonnews/articles/16979946?source=PA

Five held after Irish Embassy protest
http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=57351&pt=n

British police arrest Irish anti-war supporters
http://www.eecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=8820638&p=88zx684&n=8820726

Five Held after Irish Embassy Protest
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4198592

author by Eoinpublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 14:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Great solidarity action!

The "genocide" reference could be further explained, as it has been all but forgotten in the west that the US Navy enforced the sanctions regime on Iraq for over 13 years. The American military aircraft disarmed by Mary Kelly and the Pitstop Ploughshares at Shannon Airport was part of that silent war.

In reply to Ed Burke: Ireland is a conduit for hundreds of thousands of troops and weapons in the so-called "war on terror" -- that's the first thing we've got to deal with. Once we've kicked the bastards out of Shannon we can help the people campaigning against the war wherever the warplanes go next. One country at a time.

author by redjadepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 15:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

British police arrest Irish anti-war supporters
http://irishexaminer.12hs.com/en_US/newsfeed/story.jhtml?s=54911615&r=1606&i=5004282&d=38143681

author by Ed Burkepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 15:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I do agree that scenes such as Rumsfeld speaking in Shannon are a disgrace as is the duplicity over the US presence there - but a concentrated effort in trying to get Danish, Polish and other European troops out of Iraq would be far more beneficial and highly visible to an anti - war cause than the US merely discreetly refuelling elsewhere because they hear the Irish are armed to meet the invaders with an array of weaponry - axes etc. not seen since the beaches of Clontarf

author by Boat Personpublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 16:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Banshees are still free, their spirits cannot be imprisoned. You must continue to haunt the corridors of power, and to haunt those leaders who have perpetrated so much killing of innocents.
Well done again Zelda, we are all proud of you, once again. I am pleased to see you are still maintaining your high standard good behaviour and keeping the peace.

Boat person

author by Noelpublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You best get a move on with the anti-war activities.
Before too long the war on terror will be won
and the Americans will be going home.

author by CCCPpublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The only septics going home soon will be the poor saps coming home in body bags.

BTW I see that other great experiment in democracy in Afghanistan has seen the war criminal Dostum being named Defence Minister.

And all the while you and your hypocrite throwbacks are still frothing at the mouth about IRA "criminality".

author by misepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Fair play to them, wish there was more like them. They are a credit to us all - except Noel.

author by barrypublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

They certainly have Iraq firmly under control.
Then well still have them invading Iran, Syria Nepal, Venezuela, Cuba etc in their war of terror. Theyve made it clear Iraq wont be the last. Theyr going after every one who wont be their puppets.

Thats if they ever get over the almighty ass-whupping theyre getting today of course.

Keep taking the tablets ye eejit.

author by misepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

re: afghanistan

The law of un-intended blowback - no doubt Dublin will be awash too, but hey thats ok.

Related Link: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=615995
author by Joss - Trident Ploughsharespublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Here are all of the links I can find. I know some have already been printed above. Check out 'The Sun' and 'Ireland Online' if you want photos...

Media links
Five arrested at Irish embassy in London
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0302/shannon.html

Protesters chain themselves to embassy
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/londonnews/articles/16979946?source=PA

Five held after Irish Embassy protest
http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=57351&pt=n

British police arrest Irish anti-war supporters
http://www.eecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=8820638&p=88zx684&n=8820726

Five Held after Irish Embassy Protest
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4198592
British police arrest Irish anti-war supporters
http://irishexaminer.12hs.com/en_US/newsfeed/story.jhtml?s=54911615&r=1606&i=5004282&d=38143681
War protest at embassy
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005100183,00.html

Ireland online
http://212.2.162.45/news/story.asp?j=135377618&p=y353783z4&n=135378378
http://212.2.162.45/news/story.asp?j=135364204&p=y353649yx&n=135364964

Related Link: http://www.tridentploughshares.org
author by Timpublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I just spotted my error above.

"living in Dublin", should of course read "living in London"

author by redjadepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 20:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

commentary - that's the difference... ;-)

As of 19.10pm, 2 March
no comments on UK and London Indymedia websites....

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/03/306067.html
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2005/03/306067.html

18 comments above, and the day aint even over....

author by .publication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 20:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

tend to chat on boards like urban75.com rather than on indy

author by Josspublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 20:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The five activists who were arrested for trespassing on diplomatic premises have all been released this afternoon, without charge, but bailed to appear again on March 21st at Belgravia Police Station. The police are awaiting a statement from the Irish ambassador and the Crown Prosecution Service. All send their love and thanks for the support they received today.

In peace and solidarity.
Pitstop Ploughshares: Not Guilty

Related Link: http://www.tridentploughshares.org
author by R. Isiblepublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 21:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Once the US pulls out the Danes, Poles etc sure as hell aren't going to stay there. Once Shannon is shut down to them then other peace activists and campaigners against terror will shut other bases.

Pitstop Ploughshares and their Trident supporters are to be commended for creating a culture of resistance and showing how it should be done.

They've go their priorties sorted. They're doing something.

author by Pit Stop Ploughsarespublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 21:21author address author phone 087 918 4553Report this post to the editors

Many thanx for the solidarity and continued nonviolent resistance to this war and Irish complicity in it.

Soldarity vigils on March 7th have been confirmed for the following paces thus far.....
Brisbane - Treena & crew
Melbourne - Paul & crew
Somewhere in the hills of East Timor - Bill & crew
Belfast - Rob, Mark & crew

Solidarity/Anti-War vigils, lafletting this Thursday and Friday at GPO 4PM-6PM........

Related Link: http://www.warontrial.com
author by Edward Horganpublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 21:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mise said at 4.28 pm above "Fair play to them, wish there was more like them. They are a credit to us all - "
Well Mise, remember the nursery rhyme and the little red hen who stopped relying on others to do everything, and went and "did it herself".
the same should apply to us all.
Remember also, what Rabbi Hillel said about 2000 years ago,
"If not I, then who? If not now then, then when?" Now is always the only time in which we can act, Mise.
See you at Shannon chained to a Hercules, sometime soon.
Slan leat Mise
from Edward

author by barrypublication date Wed Mar 02, 2005 23:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

That was a very good comparison somebody made about the trains to Auschwitz passing through other jurisdictions and nobody saying a thing.

The death toll in Iraq stands at 100,000. The US military killed about a million Vietnamese and destroyed that country. They are more than capable of doing it again, and again.

Their lunatic, ideoligically crazed politicians seem hell bent on attacking and invading others and it will end in the biggest slaughter since ww2

. Fair play to these ploughshares people . they are heroes and will be remembered as those who tried to stop the madness.

Bertie and co will be remembered as well.

Forget DeValera signing Hitlers book of condolence. FF are collaborating in war crimes. They are criminals. Shame on them.

author by .-)publication date Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

that the British police (who have a special division for this type of thing) didn't use the TASAR on our protesters. And this is worthy of comment coz it was that special division who first tested the TASAR dramatically. Also note that there were no balaclava types slipping down ropes into Grosvenor Place yesterday or stuff like that. In fact it really didn't make good telly. Today Bertie meets Blair. He will naturally pop in to Grosvenor Place and look at the graffiti.

Please keep us updated on any court proceedings-

author by Josspublication date Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

...at the embassy. Thanks to Undercurrents.

banner_flag_lisa_small.jpg

mil_chains_inside_small_wince.jpg

author by redjadepublication date Thu Mar 03, 2005 17:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

http://WarOnTrial.com

Mobile Solidarity
Mobile Solidarity

author by Niall Harnettpublication date Fri Mar 04, 2005 01:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nice to know Bertie will be dining in the White House with George Bush this coming St Patricks Day. Laughing, drinking and american dick-sucking while those poor feckers in Guantanamo Bay languish hopelessly in torture mode ad infinitum. It's a fuckin' outrage the lack of integrity of our Government. How dare Bertie Ahern not challenge George Bush. How dare he not say No to American use of Shannon. How dare he let our justice system (that's a laugh) try to criminalize and demonize those who actively work, in the name of love, to stop the forces of violent oppression in the pursuit of justice and right. God bless the Ploughshare people.

author by Ciaran G. ONeillpublication date Mon Mar 07, 2005 19:56author email ciarangoneill at hotmail dot comauthor address Amsterdamauthor phone Report this post to the editors

It pains me time and again to see such careless use of language by anti-war activists. Despicable as the ‘random’ killing of some 100,000 people for material and/or geo-political gain may be it cannot and should not be labelled genocide or compared to the Nazi regime’s systematic, methodical and specifically directed attempt to eliminate European Jewry. Such intemperate and, maybe more importantly, inaccurate language can only serve to alienate many people that would otherwise join in raising their voices against this illegal and disgusting war.
The Nazis’ represent an extreme of humanity, luckily rarely paralleled (with the exception of Stalin’s USSR), and must remain to be seen as such. Throw away comparisons not only belie the horror of what the Nazis embodied but also diminish the impact of the speaker’s words as it is so much more difficult to take them seriously.
Detailing all that is abhorrent about the neo-cons’ regime is absolutely necessary as is accusing those ‘quietly’ complicit and confronting them with the consequences of their cooperation. However, personally, I feel strongly that applying such tenuous comparisons liberally and carelessly can only serve to dilute the message and in so doing make it easier for collaborators to dismiss the speaker, his or her words and all that they represent.

author by R.Isiblepublication date Mon Mar 07, 2005 21:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I agree that we should try to be very careful about langauge. Genocide is specifically defined by a UN convention to mean the "intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". See the quote and link at the bottom of this comment. Genocide does not mean "the acts carried out by the NAZIs during WW2."

It is uncontrovertible that the US, UK and other administrations aided and abetted by our own government have carried out acts intended to "destroy in part" the Iraqi people.

The reason they did this could be control of oil supplies or a desire to "see democracy flourish" in Iraq. That's not the issue. The means to their end is genocide. War is genocide for purposes that we recognise as "normal". The only abnormal thing about the Holocaust was that there appeared to be an "irrational" motivation at the base of it.

But the effects on the millions murdered directly by US bombs in South East Asia by the US over the last approximately 40 years is the same as if they'd been taken one-by-one onto a train, starved and then had explosives strapped to them and detonated: they died in agony.

Similarly it's important (especially for someone as sensitive as yourself) to recognise that many more than "100,000" have died in Iraq due to the actions of the war criminals that run the civilised West. It is widely acknowledged and admitted (through acts like the resignation of Denis Halliday, Hans von Sponeck, the verbal admission of Madeleine Albright (Clinton's US Secretary of State) that "we think the price is worth it" with regard to over 500,000 children dying in Iraq).

What you're objecting to is the central point that the Ploughshares are making: This Is A War Crime.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

* (a) Killing members of the group;
* (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
* (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
* (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
* (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Related Link: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html
author by Ciaran G ONeillpublication date Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:45author email ciarangoneill at homail dot comauthor address Amsterdamauthor phone Report this post to the editors

Mr Risible,
I am well aware of the official definition of genocide but applying it as you do; any war is genocide. I never once insinuated that the current American regime (or any other) is not guilty of war crimes, however not every war crime is equivalent to genocide, and genocide in south east Asia is not genocide in the Middle East. Neither are Guantanomo, Abu Ghraib and the countless other torture camps currently in use by the US Auschwitz or anything like it, even if they do represent clear breaches of human rights, possibly crimes against humanty and certainly war crimes.

author by barrypublication date Tue Mar 08, 2005 13:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The nazi genocide itself only began with the elimination of human rights and the invasion of weaker nations. When people see an ideologically driven militaristic regime going down a similar path they are entitled to make a comparison. The horrors of the past are being repeated, albeit not in an identical manner.
At the end of the day it is perfectly fine to invade a country of brown skinned people and kill them in the tens of 1000s. Fallujah is comparable to the destruction of the warsaw ghetto.

Just as it was perfectly ok to massacre a million yellow skinned vietnamese.

Bush and co have made it clear Iraq is only the beginning. When will the death toll be actually high enough to call it genocide Ciaran ? Should people wait untill then to compare it to Nazism when its patently obvious what these maniacs will do to the non-white, non-christian world.

author by dunkpublication date Tue Mar 08, 2005 13:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

could the needless deaths of milllions through unfair trade rules also be looked at in the same light
no need for death camps, just rules which let them rot on their own turf?

author by R. Isiblepublication date Tue Mar 08, 2005 19:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

> applying it as you do; any war is genocide.

I'd argue that that's exactly what war is: genocide

This is accepted as normal, civilised and legal behaviour by people that wring their hands when someone gets mad or drunk and kills a fellow human being in rage.

I see that as illogical and hypocritical.

In the case of Iraq the situation is further compounded (as you point out) by the fact that the act of aggression is not sanctioned by a UN resolution. This furthers the parallel that Barry makes above with the initial steps of the only act of genocide that anyone ever talks about: the Holocaust.

My point is that you are saying "this cannot be genocide because it's not comparable to WW2" and I dispute that on the following grounds:

1. The definition of genocide that I supplied clearly applies as a part of the Iraqi people have been and are being slaughtered.
2. There have been many genocides in our history: the Armenian ( estimated over 1 million by the Turks in the early part of this century); the US/French genocides in Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos (estimated 3-4 million); the US/British/French genocide against the Native Americans; the British genocide in Irish at the time of the Potato Famine; WW1; WW2 etc, etc. You choose to fixate upon the Holocaust. No one mentioned that specifically. They talked clearly and precisely about _genocide_.
3. You appear to be thinking that genocide has to be killing purely for the sake of it, murder based on racial or religious motivations. That's not what the definition of genocide is.

Although we only have estimates of 500,000 children under the age of 5 (by 1998) and over 100,000 civilians admitted to be killed in the last 2 years that adds up to a whopping 600,000 people. Are you seriously saying that that MASS killing is not comparable to the Holocaust? What do you want? People running about in jackboots shouting about untermensch? Does it really make a difference to you how murder, torture and rape are dressed?

author by R. Isiblepublication date Tue Mar 08, 2005 19:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I totally agree with you about Trade Genocide. If people are dying because some physically overfed but morally malnourished "civilised Westerner" needs to make more profits or have an extra holiday then that's genocide just as much as any other. There's slightly more excuse because it's hard to see how to extricate ourselves from the situation, but ignoring or denying the consequences of our trade system is not convincing.

However, that's a far cry from the direct, obvious and easily preventable genocide being wrought in Iraq right now.

author by Ciaran G ONeillpublication date Tue Mar 08, 2005 19:50author email ciarangoneill at hotmail dot comauthor address Amsterdamauthor phone Report this post to the editors

Mr Risible,
I did not introduce the comparison wih WWII or the Nazis, the reason I posted at all was that I was dissapointed by the quotes in the original article attributed to Joss Garmon labelling the allies' activities in Iraq genocide and, seperately, comparing the runway at Shannon to the rails leading to Auschwitz.
I possibly should have made a plea for more careful consumption of language as well.
Anyway, you have very obviously made a range of (faulty) assumptions as to how well or otherwise I am informed, my motives and abilities, I know of the genocides you mention and some of them are inarguably just that, I was in no way trying to present what the Americans and their allies are at and have been up to in Iraq either currently or since the first gulf war as a bagatelle.
It is precisely because I feel so strongly about what the current American regime is doing, in Iraq and elsewhere, and all that it is leading to in all parts of the world, that I feel a judicious use of the powerful tool of language is required.
I feel that the greatest of care should be exercised in order to avoid falling into the trap of "crying wolf".

author by R. Isiblepublication date Tue Mar 08, 2005 20:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

> Despicable as the ‘random’ killing of some
> 100,000 people for material and/or geo-political
> gain may be it cannot and should not be labelled
> genocide

There are at least 2 problems with this: 1) it's well more than 100,000 people; 2) you advance no good reason why this doesn't meet the definition of genocide.

> The Nazis’ represent an extreme of humanity,
> luckily rarely paralleled (with the exception of
> Stalin’s USSR), and must remain to be seen as
> such

This is also inaccurate: the killing of millions in South East Asia is on the same scale as the NAZIs. The Armenian Holocaust is of the same magnitude. The torture, rape and killing in Iraq and Vietnam and Colombia (and other Latin American countries) are all as horrific as the NAZI actions.

Genocide is widespread, commonplace and easily accepted by "human rights respecting, civilised Westerners".

I have no idea what your motivations, background or intentions are. All I see are some clearly inaccurate remarks from you which seek to undermine the central assertion of the Pitstop Ploughshares. You should retract the above quotes as inaccurate.

author by john - n/apublication date Fri May 27, 2005 17:00author email johntheb at familieslink dot co dot ukauthor address author phone n/aReport this post to the editors

RE: IRISH EMBASSY 25/5/05

MISSED IT. As irish I am contemptuous of greed-craven indulgence for foementors of deaths of 1million+ beings,sectarian murder,enforcing multinational control also over crops and strategic resources in iraq and contiguous and adjacent countries.

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