Anti-War Ireland Shannon Demo Objectives and Guidelines

by Joseph K Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:01

Let’s make it effective. Lots of colour, noise and placards galore.

by 23 Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:32

6. Please be aware of the large policeman behind you wielding a large stick, aiming to the back of your head.

by GGer Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:30

All I did was criticise AWI. I think they have gone far too soft. I would be happy to hear of what differentiates AWI from the IAWM. If IMC editors now believe that AWI is above criticism then they should include it in the guidelines. I breached none of the existing guidelines with my previous post.

The Emperor has no clothes. The AWI demo in no way differs from the IAWM demo. Now is that statement of opinion so treasonous that an Indymedia editor had to delete it?

by Joe Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:48

People should be warned that the person posting as GGer is almost certainly a trot with a long history of provocation on indymedia. Their aim here is clearly to stir up an argument between AWI, AmBush and DGN.

They have not raised these points
1. At any DGN meeting despite there having been some quite detailed discussions of these issues at the meetings
2. On either the public or private DGN list or on the AmBush list despite the fact that again discussion has taken place on these areas.

You can find examples of the same sort of provocation at the links below

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61344
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61354
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63534
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63593
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63895
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=30560
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65037
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61690
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65305
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65341

by GGer Tue Jun 15, 2004 13:00

You are obviously in need of help. Your raving reaction to the slightest criticism suggests you are in the throes of paranoia. Do you believe that AWI are above criticism and that only trots or provocateurs could be in disagreement with or even criticise the AWI statement above?

There is a thing called dissent. I thought that anarchists lauded it. Question Authority! Even if that Authority is led by "Anarchists".

by Joe Tue Jun 15, 2004 13:06

Your criticisms in themselves are not what I am objecting to

What I am objecting to is your use of the tag GGer when you have not raised these points
1. At any DGN meeting despite there having been some quite detailed discussions of these issues at the meetings
2. On either the public or private DGN list or on the AmBush list despite the fact that again discussion has taken place on these areas.

So your someone who is not active in the grassroots gathering apart from lurking on the DGN list but is pretending to be. The only motivation for doing so is provocation.

by Ray Tue Jun 15, 2004 13:08

If you were a member of Grassroots Gathering, you would have raised these issues somewhere else (as well as on indymedia). You haven't, so you're obviously a troll.
If you want your 'dissent' to be taken seriously, come clean about who you are. Otherwise you'll be ignored.

by Anthony - Indymedia Ireland Tue Jun 15, 2004 13:19

GGer and his friend are welcome to subscribe to the newswire list list to see the reason for hiding his comments. If he wishes to query the decision, he is welcome to subscribe to the editorial list. The newswire is for news.

by Terry - Galway Grassroots Tue Jun 15, 2004 13:20

Nor at any Galway Grassroots meeting, nor at any national Ambush meeting. Both the elements which became the AWI and the Grassroots have organised non-direct action events in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.

by Marius Tue Jun 15, 2004 13:22

GGer wonders what differentiates the AWI demo from that of the IAWM. Is this not obvious? The AWI demo is in Shannon and is timed to coinicide with the arrival of Bush and at the very place of his arrival. The IAWM demo is in Dublin – about as far away from Shannon as you can get without leaving the country.

by 8ball - grassroots, sometimes Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:02

I would have liked to have seen some sort of public call for direct action, but I understand and respect the decision that Ambush and AWI came to for this demo. They did most of the pre-work for this while most of the Dub heads were wrapped up in Mayday (and subsequent burnout/aftermath), so even though I dont necessarily agree with all the decisions made and the guidelines for the AWI march, I want to work with Galway & Cork heads for the future, so I'll respect their judgement. Admittedly I do think it is a bit of a step backwards with regards to Shannon, but next time we can tease out all the issues further in advance when we arent all wrapped up in other stuff.

Good luck to all that go down there (may not be able to make it down there myself regrettably...)

by Ball Ochs Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:11

I am also disappointed that amBush and AWI have chosen this soft path but of course I respect their decision. They are the most exalted and enlightened ones. A Fatwa should be issued against anyone who questions their compassionate and merciful decision. May Allah in his wisdom grant good health and long life to our elders who guide AWI and amBush.

by 8 Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:30

If you dont agree with the decision by ambush and AWI not to call or organise a mass DA, then there's nothing stopping you doing it yourself. GG & AWI are not the be all and end all of anti war activities in Ireland, or in Shannon. Nobody is saying that Ambush have all the answers but this time they have put the work in, are more familiar with the terrain, and have extensively consulted with AWI, so people dont mind doing whats asked of them.

by Curious Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:32

What will AWI do if the Black Blok turn up at your dmarch in Shannon. Will you ask them to remove their masks? Will you protect the press from Black Blok attacks?

by David Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:38

If activists decide to organise their own direct action, AWI will not condenm it and will probably offer any support asked for (subject to membership approval)

by Chutzpah Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:41

AWI as they say will support NVDA. They are unlikely to support Black bLoc type attacks on Garda lines. Thats a mugs game. Stay away from the AWI protest if thats what you intend.

by Curiouser Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:46

If the Black Bloc turn up at Shannon, the press will have to look out for themselves (they can hide behind the police spokesmen who provide most of their information). As regards the Black Bloc themselves, as shur, tis only a harmless bit of fun. Really, if anyone wants an excuse not to go to Shannon, come up with something original – certainly don’t use the harmless shenanigans of the lads (any lasses? doubt it) in skimasks as reason to sit on your arse. God almighty, are people forgetting the war?

As for the apparent demand for mass direct action, I think I have the answer. Any time in July just pop down to Shannon and do your stuff. The 5,000+ cops and soldiers will have gone home by then.

by Terry - Galway Grassroots Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:48

Well basically on the one hand AWI/Grassroots/Ambush you have an admitidly imperfect process of discussion and consultation which involves input from all local groups and members and on the other - IAWM - you have orders from a leadership in Dublin. You also have a focus - though not exclusive - on Shannon, with AWI, Ambush, Grassroots et al.

by Terry - Galway Grassroots Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:57

We never claimed to be *just* about direct action - here in Galway we ran 4 or 5 buses to F15, the first Grassroots demo in Shannon (shortly after start of Afghan war) was *just* a demo, etc...etc..etc... we believe in building a movement accessible to all but a key part of our strategy is direct action. That can include boycotts or the tree planting which was GMIT eco soc's big thing this year (apart from running a bus to the December 6th blockade at Shannon) or mass tresspasses or occupations.

The determining factor with direct action is not illegality or militancy but DIRECTLY impacting on the situation yourselves as opposed to ASKING the government to do something about it.

So we are into building a mass movement which aims to sort things out via direct action, that doesn't mean that the only thing that movement is going to do is (a) direct action or (b) illegal.

by Terry - Galway Grassroots Tue Jun 15, 2004 15:02

Re: Women in Black Bloc
"(any lasses? doubt it)"

- quite a few actually,quite a few......

by George Stapleton Tue Jun 15, 2004 19:26

Ah yes the black block we keep them in our arms dumps, that we have in wicklow, that are guarded by fairys. Sometimes, however, the black block escapes and turns up at demos and makes everyone cry. When the black block escapes, we chatise the fairies.

Jesus how many times does it have to be said the black block is a tactic not an organisation. "They" don't exist.

by heart attack man Tue Jun 15, 2004 21:58

this demo is the perfect time for the people who engage in the black bloc tactic to get out and do some really wonderful and meaningful direct action!
hope to see the people in black down in shanon!
remember the urge to destroy is also a creative one!!!!!!

Slan

by Herald Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:25

The Shannon demo won't be massive, which is more reason for everyone to make a big effort. Dont assume someone else will protest for you. But it can be effective and meaningful. Dublin will be small also (5,000?). If you are only interested in numbers, youre in for a dissapointment. Quality will count this time. Get to Shannon and prove we care.

by pc Wed Jun 16, 2004 15:16

i was sorta in a more flippant thought saying "tch i don't want to continue chasing politicians round the country" but then i realised it's not about bush its about shannon and are particiaption in the war...

by Chutzpah Wed Jun 16, 2004 15:30

If the Black Bloc doesbt exist then how come David is so knowledgable about it? My point is that Direct Action of the non violent variety is a good idea at Shannon, provided its done seperate from the main AWI march.

Whats not a good idea is a bunch of arrogant people dressing up in black and disrupting the AWI march by attacking the media en route. From the comments on previous threads it seems the BB are ready to attack the press again at Shannon. I know that 99% of the violence will come from the cops. I dont want attacks carried out by ultra lefts to get the serious proptesters a bad name.

Nor is it a good idea for these masked bunch to launch attacks on Garda lines. If thats their intention then they should stay away from the AWI/amBush protests.

by Mr. T Wed Jun 16, 2004 17:24

My god. People have really grown a grudge against the bb cause of that little incident with the media. From what I can gather, most people who would be up to participate in a black bloc wont be going.
(the ones not in the sewers already with all that gas that is!!)

by Badman Wed Jun 16, 2004 19:36

The idiot writing the fake black bloc calls on this thread and many others is a juvenile trotskyist. You wouldn't happen to be the same individual would you? Muppet.

by Chutzpah Wed Jun 16, 2004 19:39

Its common sense. If a certain group is answerable to no one then their prescence on a march can be disruptive. The attack on the media was only a couple of incidents but the crucial thing is that 2 of those incidents took place in O'Connell St as the march was starting out. Anyone who would act in such a childish manner is a danger to the entire demo. If this happened at Shannon the cops would use it as an "excuse" to stop the march at the very outset. We dont need that type of prvocation.

It should be clear by now to all serious adult activists that AWI do not oppose acts of NVDA which take place away from the main march. What is not needed is a bunch of masked adventureres who have nothing but contempt for the rset of the protesters. Black Bloc style attacks on Garda lines will put everyone at risk. If thats what you have in mind then stay away.

by Chutzpah Wed Jun 16, 2004 19:47

Not a trot,juvenile or otherwise. Read the other comments here and on other threads and you will see what I am disagreeing with. I reckon all the calls for a Bloc are false but its also obvious from some other comments that some heads want to try suppin on and think its no bad idea to duff up the media.

by louise - none Thu Jun 17, 2004 00:09

them peopel wont even be in the country so calm down folks,

by Geeks Against the War - Anti-War Ireland Thu Jun 17, 2004 02:59 info at antiwarireland dot org

The Anti-War Ireland still seems to be a bit of a secret...check it out...and if you want a news item/event/ or whatever stuck up, then mail to the email address above...

by pat c Thu Jun 17, 2004 16:03

Lets hope the cops and the templemore rejects in the Shannon Airport "Police" never get their hands on this type of stuff. It makes you wonder at the mentality of those who design and market such devices for indiscriminate use on crowds. Shouldnt it come uner crimes against humanity?

Sweeping stun guns to target crowds

19:00 16 June 04

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition.

Weapons that can incapacitate crowds of people by sweeping a lightning-like beam of electricity across them are being readied for sale to military and police forces in the US and Europe.

At present, commercial stun guns target one person at a time, and work only at close quarters. The new breed of non-lethal weapons can be used on many people at once and operate over far greater distances.

But human rights groups are appalled by the fact that no independent safety tests have been carried out, and by their potential for indiscriminate use.

Full story at:

by skip this comment - it's longwinded and tangential. Tue Jun 22, 2004 23:26

a relatively non event in the big expensive forum down my way. I saw it by live feed for free, and it was interesting coming the day after the warden of Elba Juan Clos had been going on about the Olympics being such a great success. and interestingly only a week before over 80 British Engurlanders went crazy at this year's football. Indeed one now has died in street violence.
The non-event did not stop this, it really didn't have a hope in hell, as it passed over collective violence associated with sporting events and the impromptu problems of non regulated assemblies of people. Be they mobilised for whatever reason they are regularised in some aspects by self "collective responsibility" or by others "the forces of law order and security".

Anyway Juan and the Forum could only get two young americans to talk about the emomtional phases associated with having oodles of people on the street.

If he had the sincerity of purpose "to change the world" he would have invited "us" along to air our lengthy and real experience of the problems faced by mobilisations.

be they sporting or protest.
Sporting involve many of similar mechanisms of "mass" of "collective".
But protest is what I'm trying to be relevant to right now, did you notice I'm trying to be relevant, well done Garda Harcourt Street and you jolly black blockers on holidays probably over here with tickets to the Forum, new slacks and cigars.

Anyway-
It's always a good idea to either sit down or stand up and have a circle type listen to people, assembly, take the temperature.

It is totally natural to go through various "collective" emotional and psychological states.
Excitement is one of them. Oh, the younger ones go flirting.
Boredom is another. The younger ones can go ladish or ladetteish at this point.
Please remember that the police never go through much excitement at all. They get really bored, then they readily go directly to another stage of collective emotion-
Frustration.
Watch the frustration, when it pops up next to boredom and confrontational pantomime you get problems. Or if your an Engurlander, that's when you ruck. Remember you are not Engurlanders, you are fine Irish men and Irish women, and even if you stab your migrant workers to death, and pass racist laws into your constitutions, and really are petit anglais on the european front, you are still at heart Fine Irish men and Irish women.

Don't let any Irish blood be spillt for Bush.

& that goes for all of you, Garda Superintendent and Station Chief Military Ataché Naval Officer U.S. "just doing your job".
Remember man the Russians arrived too.

http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/96986/index.php
http://www.barcelona2004.org/eng/eventos/dialogos/ficha.cfm?IdEvento=163