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Anti-Bin Tax local election candidates

category dublin | bin tax / household tax / water tax | opinion/analysis author Wednesday February 18, 2004 14:30author by Owen Deere Report this post to the editors

Who's who?

I've been trying to work out who will be listed as anti-bin tax local election candidates.
I'm not making any comment on whether this is a waste of time, just merely trying to ascertain who is likley to be the candidate in each ward. Below is the list I have compiled. I'm not sure that this is accurate. I'm only going on previous announcements. That's where you come in.

Dublin Corporation
Artane - Richie Browne (SWP)
Ballyfermot - Brid Smith (SWP)
Ballymun Whitehall - Kevin Wingfield (SWP)
Cabra Glasnevin - Cieran Perry (WCA)
Clontarf - ?
Crumlin Kimmage - Joan Collins (SP)
Donaghmede - ?
Finglas - Cllr. Dessie Ellis (SF) John O'Neill (ISN)
North Inner City - Joe Mooney (WCA)
Pembroke - ?
Rathmines - Terry Connolly (SWP)
South East Inner City - Dermot Nessan (SP) Shay Ryan (SWP)
South West Inner City - ?

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council
Ballybrack - Christie Moore (SWP)
Blackrock -
Dundrum - Lisa Maher (SP) Deirdre Cronin (SWP)
Dun Laoghaire - Richard Boyd Barrett (SWP)
Glencullen - ?
Stillorgan - ?

Fingal County Council
Balbriggan - Tadhg Kenehan (SP)
Castleknock - Susan Fitzgerald (SP)
Howth - Brian Greene (SP)
Malahide - ?
Mulhuddart - Cllr. Ruth Coppinger (SP) Helen Redwood (SP)
Swords - Cllr. Clare Daly (SP) Michael O'Brien (SP)

South Dublin County Council
Clondalkin - Gino Kenny (SWP)
Lucan - ?
Tallaght Central - Mick Murpy (SP)
Tallaght South - ?
Terenure Rathfarnham - ?

author by observerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You have left out the names of Councillors who voted against the bin charges as well as SF candidates who are all opposed to the charges.

author by Owen Deerepublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I was only counting candidates which are likely to be endorsed by the campaign. Using your criteria the Labour candidates could count as anti-bin tax candidates.

author by observerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

And just to prove my non-sectarianism you have also excluded the Workers Party :)

author by observerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yes - if Labour Councillors have voted against the charges then they are by definition "anti - bin charges". Doesnt matter who some self-appointed and non-representative clique "endorses". It is Dublin City Council, not Pyongyang.

author by Snowypublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

That they will have to be endorsed by the respective campaigns. And the activists involved in the campaigns are the best ones to judge who to endorse and who not to endorse. That's the way it will be done in Dublin and has nothing to do with your straw man of Pyongyang.

author by Owen Deerepublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Add to list. That's why I did my list. Who do you think is missing.

author by Onlookerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hello snowy hows your master tintin? Sinn Fein are involved in the Anti Bin Tax Campaign so it will be interesting to hear any arguments as to why SF candidates should not be endorsed by the campaign. If the SP want to destroy the unity of the campaign then a good way to do it would be toi argue that SP candidates should be endorsed but SF candidates should not. No , candidates wont be endorsed by edict from Pyongang, but their endorsement wont be decided by the CWI EC in London either.

author by Snowypublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This has nothing to do with the CWI EC. This will have to do with the campaigns which surely you are not saying are a front for the SP. Dessie Ellis has been involved at all stages and been at most city campaign meetings, organised meetings and turned up on some blockades. Dessie is sure to be endorsed by the campaign.
This has nothing to do with SP/SF rivalry, it is just pure logic that Dessie will be endorsed for being active.

author by observerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 14:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You dont seem to have any problem getting the names of all the SP and SWP "hopefuls" so the SF, LP and WP candidate lists should be easy to find.

author by shinnerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 15:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think that Sinn Fein candidates are better off not being indorsed. Why associate yourself with a failed project. We should run on our own policy and not give fiddlers about this dying issue. As somebody who has been out knocking on doors, nobody cares anymore, they think it has failed, it won’t matter a rats arse. Halfthe candidates above wont even get in the 100's and Dessie Ellis will be the own one elected.
In my opinion, "Stuff your endorsement, We don’t need it".

author by Don't Vote Butpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 15:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If the criteria applied to SF - that only individuals who have been consistently active in the campaign are likely to be endorsed by the campaign - is applied consistently then you shouldn't take it for granted that every no-hoper the SWP put forward will receive an endorsement.

The likes of Smith and Boyd Barrett will obviously be endorsed but why exactly should Commander Wingfield or Richie Brown (for instance), who haven't built real campaigns of any sort get an endorsement?

Some SF candidates other than Ellis would have at least as good a claim - ie not very much of one at all.

I'm not going to vote on principle, but somehow that inconsistency annoys me.

author by Onlookerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 15:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If you are active in the campaign or even knew anything about it then you would be aware of Sinn Feins involvement. Are you really suggesting that you thought only SP, SWP and WCA were active?

author by Chekapublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 15:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So who is going to suggest that SF or the SWP candidates should not be endorsed? Redwood of the SP does not exactly have a shining record in the campaugn, but she was sent over by Peter Taafe to keep the natives in line.

author by Januspublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 15:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Calm the heads one and all.

Right, there is such a thing as the Anti Bin Tax Campaign. As a campaign it has the right to endorse candidates, and I have no doubt it will ONLY endorse local SWP and SP activists. Allegedly, in Brid Smith's case this has got quite blatant with her asking people to vote for her and her alone at public meetings.

Sinn Fein, whose attitude to the campaign has been patchy, are not formally tied in with that Campaign and frankly, can't expect to be endorsed. Are SF candidates anti-bin tax candidates? Yes, because they vote against it and are opposed to it.

But whether they are endorsed or not is up to the local campaigns and they will choose the people they feel have been most active on the ground. Frankly, I think the campaigns are being used by the SWP and the SP to bolster their election prospects at this stage, but having nursed the campaigns I suppose they feel they have that 'right'.

author by Don't Votepublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 16:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Actually Janus, I think you can take it pretty much for granted that all of the ISN and WCA candidates will be endorsed, as will Ellis of SF. It would be a major surprise if anything else happened.

The SWP will be trying to get an endorsement for every no-hoper they can scrape up. I'm just pointing out that if other SF candidates are to be denied an endorsement because they haven't played a real role in the campaign, then a fair few of those SWP no-hopers shouldn't be endorsed either. I singled out Commander Wingfield and Richie Brown in particular but the same applies to others.

Those SWP people who have really built a campaign should of course be endorsed but that doesn't give them or the SP or anyone else a blank cheque to scrape up any gobshite they can convince to stand and have them endorsed by the campaign.

author by The Captainpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 16:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

John McCamley of the SP is also a candidate in Finglas. As chair of the Anti Bin Tax Campaign in Finglas he is certainly in the running for a deat.

author by observerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 16:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

will get about 200 - 300 votes.

Didn't he used to be in the pro British/pro-Coalition "Democratic Socialist" Party?

author by Non-payeepublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 16:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

That was his old man.
Glad to see he is in the race. As the SP were the mainstay of the campaign in Finglas it was always only right they should run a candidate. When was the convention and what are the other candidates for Dublin city, Captain.

author by observerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 16:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

McCamley will be "in the race" in the same way that Carlow are in the race for the All Ireland hurling championship.

author by shinnerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 16:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He won't be chair come the election.

author by Cotton Matherpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 16:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The SP certainly were not the mainstay of the campaign in Finglas. But McCamley was always good at grabbing publicity especially when Colm and John of the ISN were in prison. The ISN have played a far more important part in building the Finglas campaign. The SP have 3 or 4 members living in Finglas.

This is yet another example of the SPs self delusion. Well they will get a wake up call when the results are in. I doubt if McCamley would get 100 votes.

author by skepticpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Has anyone actually verified that John McCamley is standing in Finglas- or is this just another example of indymedia gossip and trolling run riot?

As far as I know the Socialist Party is not running a candidate in Finglas.

author by No rankpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As you brought in, the as yet unconfirmed story of McCamley, perhaps you could enlighten us as to whether Owen is wrong in saying that JC is running for the SP in Crumlin. Word has it, she has been deselected.

author by peoples front of judea rep!publication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i believe that Mark Daly of sinn fein in tallaght cetral should be indorssed because its the only way hes gonna loose his seat, saddling him with such a unhelpful label as having been involved in this farce.
sinn fein abu!

author by Joepublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Anyone else suspect that the anonymous shinner posting this and similar comments is none other than the infamous Mark Daly? What do you reckon Janus?

BTW the whole thread is a neat illustration of the problems of electoralism.

author by shinnerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I thought he was running on the opportunist ticket and not the anti - bin - tax. Can somebody clarify?

author by bin tax screwedpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

its very worrying that i know a few of the candidates above and even more worrying is that fact that they are running in these elections. happy thought is that they will get stuffed and som wont even get fifty votes. bigger parties will steam roll them as the bin tax thing gets lost in the other 100 or so issues happening in communities. bix tax supporters will inevitably say their voice wasnt heard and money one the day.
One answer to that. Go to the link below.

Related Link: http://www.aminet.or.jp/~yasu/illus...play/violin.gif
author by observerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well, having solved the problems of young people seeking car insurance (remember MIJAG?), he is now tackling environmental issues. He deserves the support of all workers and youth.

author by shinnerpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 18:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You are right observer. He truly is the answer to all the woes in society. King amongst men. Mick - Did you ever know that your my hero, you’re everything I wish I could be..........
He has become a good laugh though. Kind of the Eddie the eagle of local politics don’t you think.

author by big soap fanpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 18:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

its good to see joan collins running in kimage. there finally is life after dynasty!

author by Januspublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 18:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Joe, no idea, doubt it, both because a large number of the words are spelt right and because, like him or loathe him, Daly's probably spending the day making sure some little old lady gets her window repaired.

author by WCApublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 18:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The WCA are not running candidates in the Local Elections. They are supporting a number of candidates who are running on a broad platform as Independent Community candidates. It is unlikely that these candidates will be seeking any "endorsement" from the Anti Bin tax Campaign, especially if the "official" Anti Bin Tax Campaign list is anything like initial list on this thread.

author by Chekovpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 19:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

With a good 5 months of mud-throwing left till polling day, the old anarchist saying about parliament being a dung heap is proving it's truth in more ways than one.

Although you might be sceptical, Janus, it's very obvious that there has been a concerted attempt in the last little while to run down Mick Murphy on indymedia by attacking the bin tax campaign as a 'stunt' and also throwing around a few unsubstantiated allegations. It's also clear that the people doing the attacking are from SF*. Whether it's Daly doing the attacking or not it seems to me to be probable that the SF organisation in Tallaght is orchestrating it. Sudden flurries of attacks on individuals don't just emerge out of nothing. Especially in the run up to the local elections, when Daly is (rightly) vulnerable on the bin tax issue, it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility that Daly is behind them.

One of the bad sides of electoralism is that the candidate must always be pushed to the fore so that the electorate comes to identify the issue with the candidate. The flip side is that competitors attack the campaign rather than the individual involved. Sinn Fein say that they are against the tax, but the truth of the matter is that, with a few notable exceptions, they have never had anything to say about stopping the bin tax. Their policy document and their public pronouncements tell us what they would do if they were in control. This is about as useful as me writing a policy document about what I would do if I ruled the world. It deals with a situation that is non-existant and is simply not going to happen in the forseeable future. It tells us precisely nothing about how Sinn Fein propose to try to stop the tax in the real world of here and now. While I did have many differences with the SP over their approach to the campaign, at least they tried an approach that had a chance of working. SF never even tried.

(*This could of course be somebody running a cunning black-op. However, many of the posters identify themselves as SF and the political situation in Tallaght make the attacks understandable from their point of view. )

author by Januspublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 20:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You make some good points Chekov, and I'm certainly open to the possibility that Daly is behind it. I doubt it, from what I know of both the man and the organisation in the area strongly, but I accept that it cannot be ruled out.

I also accept that there is a concerted campaign against Mick Murphy on Indymedia, but whether this is the work of a cadre of disciplined Sinn Fein activists, or one person posting under multiple aliases is another matter.

Or whether, to be blunt, it is the result of Mr Murphy's rampant sectarianism. That said, I think if anyone seriously believes that what is posted on indymedia effects anyone other than a small group of at most a couple of hundred left wing and extremist activists I think they are only kidding themselves.

When Higgins was arrested I remember talking about the issue with Shinners and when they asked for details about an event I told them to look at Indymedia. Not a single one of them knew what I was talking about, and most of them would have been people I would see as clued in community activists.

On your second point, I am largely in agreement. I have stated on a number of occasions the SP have made the running on this issue and criticised SF for its inaction on the issue outside of Finglas and a few places in the South City. I would have thought I had stated that enough that I was not obliged to repeat it when commenting on an SF waste management proposal.

I have also, for the record, stated that with the collapse of the campaign in Fingal, the campaign of non-payment is over. I also believe the campaign's focus, to the exclusion of all else on non-payment, was wrong, and isolated people who had paid the charges but opposed them from those who refused to pay.

Sometimes it seems on Indymedia as if one has to bow to some sacred cows before one can go on to make a point. You can't say this unless you say A and B to prove you're entitled to an opinion.

author by joe o'connorpublication date Wed Feb 18, 2004 20:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

sinn fein are not part of the anti bin tax campaign, which has seen workers jailed. they are the party of law and order. The law part being the RUC from which they now have councillors. The order part being the orders they take from the politbureau in belfast. A 32 county party - hardly -not even 32 people make their decisions.

author by observerpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So it's alright for the SP to throw allegations around but not for others to point out the facts of the situation regarding the collapse of the bin campaign? Nobody has made any personal allegations against him or accused him of being corrupt whereas such charges are thrown around like confetti by people attacking SF.

People in glass houses and all that...

author by the manpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Does anybody here believe that Sinn Fein in tallaght would bother trying to influence people by using Indy media? I am a member of Sinn Fein and I can tell you most of them would of never even heard of it. What is happening here is that Mick Murphy, and by the looks of it many of his supporters are being wound up by somebody. Mark Daly is far too busy looking after his newborn baby, his job and indeed getting elected to give a flying fuck about what Mick Murphy is doing. Secondly to imply that Sinn Fein are doing this because they feel under threat, well that I think over states the value of this medium and shows a great naivety. Sinn Fein will, and are very well down the road into their campaign in tallaght. The vote in the area has increased by 125% between 1999 and 2001. The indications are from initial canvasses that it will again go up and Sinn Fein will get two candidates elected. Like him or loathe him, and many on the left do the later, mark Daly has a tremendous record of work in the council and this will easly see him elected.

author by Confusedpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"The WCA are not running candidates."

Are Joe and Ciaran going to leave the WCA for the duration of the local election campaign?

author by Denispublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As usual the world revolves around Dublin. Some of you up there forget that there have been strong anti-service charges campaigns outside the Dublin area for the last 20 years.

Have you forgotten the campaigns in Waterford (where a crowd of 3,000 people once surrounded people cutting off water), Cork (where over a dozen were jailed between 1990 and 2002 and the campaign continues), not to mention Limerick, Kildare, etc, etc.

author by Curiouspublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Who are the Independent candidates that WCA will be supporting? Joe and Kieran are both WCA members. Surely they are not afraid to openly stand on the WCA program.

author by Celeb Whatcher. - Stakers UKpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

A BIT OF FUN. though the editor will probally take it off.
Celeberity candidates appearing for the left.
Rumours are abounding that Sinn Fein are to run former Dallas star Larry Hagman. Mr Hagman who played JR Ewining in the 1980's sitcom is to run in the Lucan ward.
Sinn Fein deny that this is in a direct response to the SP's decision to run former Dynasty star Joan Collins, (73, of no fixed abode), in the Crumlin ward.
Sinn Fein spokesperson for daytime television Chad DeBurca stated "If Mr Hagman runs and gets elected it will be as a result of his community work in the Lucan area".
However, sources close to the party have stated that the decision to run Mr Hagman was taken after one activist trolling the Internet for fly paper distributors came across Mr Hagmans Web page. On the page Mr Hagman (Texas Resident) states that he has been a life long republican supporter.
Not to be outdone it appears that the SWP are to run Fiacra O'Mygawd, (Extra on the 70's BBC sitcom the liver birds), in Gorey.
One thing is for certain, a campaign which looked set to be boring now looks to be getting a lot more interesting now that the glitz and glamour of Hollywood has entered the picture.
Watch this space.

author by IMC fanpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

IMC - make your own news. Even dummies can do it.

author by Sue Ellen Ewingpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He's an oil magnate, for God's sake - he should be cosying up to Fianna Fail.

author by dallas fanpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i think hagman will make a great councilour.
i look forward to his election.
well done sinn feinb. i think you are all really great.

author by Cotton Matherpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In a major change of policy the WSM are considering running Chekov in the Cherry Orchard area of Ballyfermot. Spokesman Dr Groove said: "Hes got historical connections with it. Theres 3 sisters in the area who will canvass for him."

author by out raged.publication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

how dare you slag off larry hagman, hes my da!

author by Ordinary Manpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

And don't forget that Christie Moore is running for the SWP in Ballybrack.

author by confused.publication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

is this a council election or im a celerbrity get me out of here.

author by working class heropublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 13:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Just one question for Candidate Hagman; Who exactly JR? Was there collusion involved? And the mysterious death and reappearence of Bobby Ewing! Could Ewing have somehow had something to do with the Long Kesh breakouts in 1973, thus explaining his disappearence. Was he in fact found with Gerry Kelly, MLA in Holland!! We must have answers Hagman!!
Is the Stetson hat going to replace the ballyclava and when, I put it to you Mr. Hagman, when will the Stirups be taken out of Politics!!
Disgruntled Would be Republican and avid supporter of Bin Charges

author by Hagman Fan.publication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 13:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

November 21, 1980 and August 23, 1995, February 15th 2004 are three dates Larry Hagman will never forget. On the first, over 350 million fans in 57 countries were glued to their television sets to find out who shot J.R. On the second, Larry received a liver transplant that took 16 hours and saved his life. And finally getting the nomination to run in Lucan.

Hagman was born in Fort Worth, Texas on September 21st, the son of actress Mary Martin and attorney Ben Hagman. When his parents divorced, he moved to Los Angeles to live with his grandmother. After his grandmother's death, Hagman, who was only 12, returned to his mother, who had remarried and was pursuing a successful Broadway career. He went on to star in shows such as I Dream of Genie and Dallas.

Mr Hagman now intends to commit his life to the struggle of Irish National self-determination through south Dublin County Council.

Votail Larry Hagman No1.

author by Stevepublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 14:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Workers Party is the only party that has opposed all forms of service charges since they were first introduced 22 years ago by Labour Environment Minister Dick Spring.

The party's Dublin candidates are:

Finglas: Owen Martin
Crumlin: Shay Kelly
Ballyfermot: Andrew McGuinness
Ballymun: John Dunne

author by vanguardpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 14:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

horror of horrors - imagine the wca didn't have a program! After all they're only unsophisticated plebs

author by Anonymouspublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 14:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Celeb Watcher", you should be ashamed of yourself.

VOTE NO. 1 CHEKOV, WSM - HE WON'T LET YOU DOWN.

author by Celeb watcherpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 14:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Actually I dont endorse any candidate. I am purley a conduit through which the news passes. Long live democracy.

author by Badmanpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 15:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There are rumours that Chekov's campaign is being funded by his uncle Vanya, a well known property developer in the Swords area. I wouldn't trust him.

author by Anonymouspublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 15:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Sorry Celeb watcher I was scolding you for upsetting Ray for posting this as an article when you have already posted it as a comment. I hope you have a good think about what you have done.

The Chekov comment was a seperate comment. I hope to be selected as his campaign manager and see if I can swindle or bribe a few votes his way. I urge you to come off the fence and join our team!

author by Raypublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 15:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Everyone knows Vanya lives in Cherry Orchard.

author by Raypublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 15:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He's had a gun hanging on his wall for ages, and he's determined to use it eventually...

(and that's the last of the jokes, honest)

author by Januspublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 15:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why isn't Dickie Barrett running for the Sticks?

author by Cotton Matherpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 15:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Krusty Libertarians have been spotted netting seagulls and selling them to chip shops. It aint chicken you get in the Southern Fried!

author by Cotton Matherpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 16:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Dickie Barrett is running for the SWP in Kingstown.

author by celeb watcherpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 16:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i am waiting to see if diana ross throws her hat in the ring before i commit.

author by Anti bin tax activistpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 18:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Re the anti bin tax campaign in Finglas, the SP has from the start played a major role in the campaign there, and continues to do so, as does the ISN, Dessie Ellis and others. If you were better informed you would be aware of this and you would know that the SP is not running a candidate in Finglas.

author by Other Anti Bin Tax Activistpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 18:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The SP have played a role in Finglas but with only three (hardworking) members in the area it obviously was a limited one. If you were involved the campaign you should be aware of this. The last offical statement on the SP in Finglas was by Stephen Boyd. He said that the SP had not reached a decision as to whether they would stand a candidate in Finglas.

author by Rosapublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 19:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Heres one long time observer of the left scene attempt at an objective prediction.


Dublin Corporation

Artane
- Richie Browne (SWP): Handfull of votes, no real anti-bin tax campaign in this area.

Ballyfermot
- Brid Smith (SWP): In a larger Ward she would be in with a real chance but unlucky to be in a 4 seater where three out of the four cllr's have voted against the Bin Tax. She might scrape the last seat.

Ballymun Whitehall
- Kevin Wingfield (SWP): No real campaign, he'll be lucky to get over 100 votes.

Cabra Glasnevin
- Cieran Perry (WCA): In with a fighting chance of winning a seat due to good community work over the years. Odd that both he and Joe Mooney are running as independents rather than under the WCA banner.

Crumlin Kimmage
- Joan Collins (SP): By all accounts may not be selected to run by the SP but in with a fair chance of winning the seat. Has run one of the best organised local anti bin tax campaigns in the city council area.

Finglas
- Cllr. Dessie Ellis (SF): Topped the poll last time, will have a large surplus this time and could even bring in the other SF candidate. The only SF cllr. who has played a consistently active role in the campaign.
-John O'Neill (ISN): Should get a decent vote cos of imprisonment for breaking injunction, might just be in the running for last seat.

North Inner City
- Joe Mooney (WCA): Will be in the running for seat though hampered by being confined largely to East Wall area.

Rathmines
- Terry Connolly (SWP): Another token candidate.

South East Inner City :
-Shay Ryan (SWP): has worked in the Bin Tax campaign but will be eclipsed by Daithi Doolan of SF who will almost certainly win a seat.

South West Inner City
- Dermot Nessan (SP): Wont be in the running for a seat but will get a decent vote because bin tax campaign active in the area.

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council

Ballybrack - Christie Moore (SWP) Despite working in the Bin Tax campaign, he will hardly get more than 100-200 votes.

Dundrum
- Lisa Maher (SP): Has worked away over the years but never made the crucial breakthrough. Will get a good vote but wont be elected.
-Deirdre Cronin (SWP) Again 100-200 votes maximum.

Dun Laoghaire
- Richard Boyd Barrett (SWP): Definitely in with a chance of taking the last seat due to high profile. May well end up battling it out with Roger Cole of Labour (and PANA) for that seat.



Fingal County Council

Balbriggan
- Tadhg Kenehan (SP): Hostile territory for the SP, where the Bin Tax campaign may have lost more votes than gained.

Castleknock
- Susan Fitzgerald (SP): Same as above, with extra helping in this mostly afluent ward.
Howth
- Brian Greene (SP)

Mulhuddart
- Cllr. Ruth Coppinger (SP): Aquited herself well during the height of the 'battle for the bins'. Will hold the seat but not without a challenge from SF.
-Helen Redwood (SP): Surprising that SP ran a second candidate here, wont feature in the race.

Swords
- Cllr. Clare Daly (SP) She will romp home, with a large surplus.
-Michael O'Brien (SP): With a lot of luck, and a subdued SF vote in Swords he might just get in on Clares surplus.

South Dublin County Council

Clondalkin
- Gino Kenny (SWP) Like most of the SWP candidates will come in around 100-200.

Tallaght Central
- Mick Murpy (SP): A battle royal going on here with SF, as regular indymedia nerds will know. He could win a seat but its an outside chance.

So there it is. Ive followed the original list so dont blame me for ommissions. For the record I can't see any of the Dublin WP candidates being in the running for a seat, though John Dunne should get a decent vote in Ballymun. At the risk of starting another row I have'nt included any Labour candidates cos none have played any active role in the Anti-Bin Tax campaign.

author by anti bin tax activistpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 19:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

To say that the role of the SP in the campaign in Finglas was a limited one, is simply not true. And its not clear what is being suggested by the number of members mentioned. The only party/group involved in the campaign with a large number of members in Finglas is SF and I certainly wouldn't say that their role was any greater then the SPs.

author by OABTApublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 19:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There is only so much 3 people can do; the one thing they should not do is delude themselves. To say that 3 SP people have done more than SF is fantasy. The ISN have more members than the SP in Finglas and have played a far greater role, as have SF. If the SP were such big wheels in Finglas then there would be no doubt about their standing a candidate.

author by anti bin tax activistpublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 19:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Now its clear that you do not know anything about the Finglas campaign. No delusion going on here. For information the ISN do not have more members living in Finglas. And I think that they would acknowledge the role played by the SP in the area, as the SP would theirs.

author by OABTApublication date Thu Feb 19, 2004 19:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You are only fooling yourself. If the SP are such a big deal in Finglas then why arent they standing a candidate instead of the ISN? I have said that the 3 SP members in Finglas are dedicated and hardworking but there is no point in you pretending that the ISN have less support than the SP or that the 3 SP members in Finglas have done more than SF. You are making a fool of yourself and you are not doing the Finglas SP any favours.

author by Election nerdpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ballyfermot is a three seater.

author by labour loverpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In the interest of fairness here are the labour candidates in so far as I know them

Dublin Corporation

Artane – Paddy Bourke a good track record on the issue, Sinead Seery a new young candidate
Ballyfermot – Michael Connaghan voted against
Ballymun Eamon O’Brien, voted against, well respected in Ballymun, Andrew Montague a new young candidate from the Glasnevin end
Cabra Glasnevin – Brendan Carr, voted against
Clontarf – Orla Farrell replaced Derek Mc Diowell so may not have been there for the vote but DmcD has voted against, Willie Hamilton is second candidate and well known to all Mandate and other trade union activists

Crumlin Kimmage – Eric Byrne, voted against, Gearoid O’Maolmhichil – has publicized oppositon
Donaghmede – Anne Carter, took over from Tommy Broughan well known opponent, Sean Kenny voted against
Finglas – Mary Murphy, took over from Roisin shortall who was against
North Inner City – Took over from Joe Costelloe who voted against
Pembroke – Dermot Lacey, well known for voting in favour previous year but voted with the group this year
Rathmines – Mary Frehill, not present for the famous vote, don’t know about this year, Oisinn Quinn, don’t know his position
South East Inner City – Kevin Humphries against
South West Inner City – John Gallagher, voted against

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council
Ballybrack – Denis O’Callaghan voted against, Carrie Smith – voted against
Blackrock – Niamh Breathneach – voted against
Dundrum – Aidan Culhane – voted against
Dun Laoghaire – Jane Dillon Byrne – voted against, Chris O’Malley voted against, Roger Cole is against
Glencullen – Can’t remember her name but the party position locally is to vote against
Stillorgan – Brendan Lynch don’t know his position

Fingal County Council
Balbriggan – Ciaran Byrne voted against
Castleknock – Peggy Hamill voted against
Howth – Vivian Kelly is against
Malahide – Peter Coyle voted against (title is Portmarnock)
Mulhuddart – Michael O’Donavan voted against
Swords – Gerry Maguire has taken over form Sean Ryan who voted against, Tom Kelleher also voted against

South Dublin County Council
Clondalkin – Robert Dowds voted against
Lucan – Joanna Tuffy voted against, Eamon Tuffy has taken over
Tallaght Central – Don Tiping and Eamon Maloney voted against, there is another female candidate here
Tallaght South – Denis Makin voted against, there is another female candidate here
Terenure Rathfarnham – Eamon Walshe voted against. Paddy Cosgrove and Alex White are candidates

author by not a labour loverpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

All they did was vote against the bin tax. And even then they didn't always do this well!

what about organising a campaign of non-payment?

author by campaignerpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Some LP members voted for bin tax eg Dermot Lacey. In any case NO LP candidates in the upcoming elections have been involved in the anti bin tax campaign and they all advocate payment of the bin tax and all continually oppose the takin of the neccesary militant action such as blockades.

I think it would be wrong for the campaigns to endorse people with poor records on the bin tax. there will be oppurtunists jumping out from the woodwork all over Dublin trying to jump on the bandwagon and claim to have been part of the anti bin tax campaign. If the campaing endorses people with a poor track record who have done little work on thje gorund, regardless of their party it would harm the campaign. As these candidates would likely to get a hammering in the election whoich would demoralise activists in the area.

author by Punditpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Labour apart from one or two dubious characters can be regarded as Anti Bin Tax. All hands to Dun Laoire! Canvass for Old King Cole! RBB must be stopped!

author by confusedpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

ehh....

thought the point of lobbying and campaigning was to persuade people to vote agianst. I must have missed something

author by Realistpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Its not the Labour candidates who will get a hammering my dear campaigner. It will be the trots. Some trots will do well: Ruth C, Clare D, Mick M, Lisa M, RBB, Brid S. But only the 1st 2 are certain of being elected. The other trots have no hopes of unseating Labour councillors. SF might unseat FFers though, they along with the LP are at 15% in the polls in Dublin.

author by observerpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I am far from being a "Labour Lover" - can't stand them actually - but one of the comments above is bizarre in the extreme. Labour and SF and some indos voted against the charges. All of their candidates, in common with all SF, WP, and others are committed to opposing it. Therefore they are by definition ANTI BIN CHARGES. The fact that the micro groups ball has been taken from them - or rather they've thrown it out of the pram - is their problem. Surely as good Leninists they will have the steel and tenacity to find some other quick path to the glorious proletarian revolution. It should be a lesson to them that you don't lead people up the garden path and then fuck off and tell them "Oh, sorry about that but we put up a good fight" (Near verbatim quote from SP canvasser to worried Tallaght resident facing massive bill that they told him he would NEVER have to).

author by campaignerpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 13:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'Pundit', Roger Cole has NO RECORD WHATSOEVER in the anti bin tax campaign. He may be opposed to the bin tax but has note been active in the campaign against it, he is opposed to non payment and is opposed to the tactic of blockading trucks in all circumstances. If he does take up the issue in the elections it will be an oppurtunist turn in order to cut accross RBB.

I have many differences with RBB on a political basis and on tactics in the campaign but I still recognise that he actually has done some work against the bin tax and has a good enough record so it is RBB who should get the endorsement of the campaign and not oppurtunist bandwagoners like Cole and the LP.

The campaign lobbied the local politicians to vote against the tax and many did because of this pressure But the point was allways made that these politicians from the estblishment politicians are collectivly responsible for double taxation. None of these parties are principly opposed to dopuble tax. The LP-FG-DL government implemented water tax for example.

'Realist', I think that if Ruth C, Clare D, Mick M, Lisa M, RBB, Brid S were to be elected and the other anti bin tax people were to get very respectable votes that would be a huge boost to the campaign. I do think you are being very pessimistic about the prosects for the anti bin tax candidates. It will be one of the main issues in these elections, there is HUGE anger against the tax especially in Fingal and SDCC and I think it will be one of the 'surprises' in these elections.

author by hickpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 13:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So 'observer' you are clearly now arguing that the tactic of non payment was wrong?

author by Rosapublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 13:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If we are talking about candidates who have played an active role in the Anti-Bin Tax campaign, then no Labour candidate can be included. As a matter of fact I know of no Labour member who has played a role in any of the Dublin campaigns.

A fundamental pillar of the campaign is the policy of encouraging non-payment. This is the one tactic that all the groups and individuals involved agree on. Labour on the other hand definitely opposes non payment. The leader of the Labour Party openly supported the Bin Tax during the intense period of activity last autumn. So only a total party hack, with a total disregard for facts can say that Labour candidates could be considered anti-bin tax.

author by Joepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 13:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This thread is demonstrating more and more the dead end the campaign has got itself into. Far from looking for a way to take the struggle forwards we are now in for months of petty bickering as the different parties involved try and carve a vote out of their activity. And the best that can be hoped for is the election of a tiny handful of people scattered across 4 councils who have no real power in respect of the charges anyway.

There is a lot of shite being talked about a 'good' result being a boost for the campaign. Considering the large sums of money being squandered (not campaign funds of course but still..) and the thousands of hours spent electioneering its very hard to see how this 'boost' can be worth the effort involved. Those in charge have set up the electoral cage and like good little hamsters the parties of the left are going to spend the next months running in their wheels and thinking they are getting somewhere. Don't mistake effort for progress.

Meanwhile the non-payers facing growing bills and told by the left to expect something significant to come out of the election can only face demoralisation whatever the outcome. Either no more than the current number of 'real' anti-tax councillers get elected (4/5?) or they get joined by a couple of others and can do squat.

But sure you can all keep yourself entertained by pretending that exposing the hollow words of the Labour Party or most of SF will make any difference. And all the time you blindly stagger down the road laid out 30 years earlier by sections of the LP and 10 years ago by SF. Animal farm how are ya!

author by standornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 13:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This argument that an election campaign cuts accross building non payment is rubbish. They are not mutually exclusive. You can use the oppurtunity of a mass election campaign to build up non payment and opposition to the tax. The elections can also be used to re-activate the activists.

We all know that being elected to the councils will not defeat the bin tax. The bin tax is part of a wider neo liberal agenda being pushed by big business, central govt and international institutions such as the OECD, EU, etc. However if a position can be won in a council it can act as a platform for the ideas of working class people. For example look at Joe Higgins in the Dáil, who realistically can say that if JH was outside the Dail that he'd be listened to by the bourgeois press. The fact is that JH having that position is of great assistance in buildng up opposition to the government outside the parliament.

the anarchist argument that we should boycott elections to councils is ultra left and does not take into account the conscouness of people. Like it or not most workers will be looking to these elections as an oppurtunity to punish this government on the bin tax and various other issues. To stand aside would be sectarian and ultra left. Concretely what would happen if we stood aside and allowed FF/PD/FG/LP a free run? What woul happen is that the activists both passive and active would be demoralised and the campaing would be seen as defeated. It is better to stand in these elections, provide an alternative for working people and try to win them over to radical left ideas.

author by Joepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 13:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"This argument that an election campaign cuts accross building non payment is rubbish."

I suggest you read the thread and then consider what activity the campaigns have been involved in for the last few months. It's quite clear from this that the elections have ALREADY cut across the campaign. It's also clear that the question is no longer 'building non-payment' but providing a credible strategy for non-payers to keep non-paying. Not 'wait till after the election which can make no difference and then we'll see'.

"We all know that being elected to the councils will not defeat the bin tax. "

Is this line in ANY party manifesto? The 'we' you refer to is the self-appointed 'leaders' of a working class that reckons workers themselves are too dumb to understand the arguments by which they have reached their conclusions. Or as you so politely put it the "conscouness of people", sounds a lot better than 'You and me we are smarter than the rest, we can understand what they can't'.

"Most workers" look to all sorts of things for solutions that I disagree. "Most workers" for instance vote for Fianna Fail, by your logic our 'role' is then to join FF? The role of the left is not to follow whatever "most workers" already think but to argue (and organise for) the alternative.

BTW calling people 'ultra left' may have working in 1919 when Lenin was in power and jailed or shot those who disagreed with him. Nowadays its has the same political content as trotskyite-fascist.

author by Realistpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"there is HUGE anger against the tax especially in Fingal and SDCC and I think it will be one of the 'surprises' in these elections."

But Labour and SF are both showing at 15% in the polls in Dublin. The SP, SWP and WP would be included in others but there has been no huge increase in this category from previous polls so it does not look as if there is going to be a shock result. No point in kidding ourselves.

author by observerpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

that the "huge anger in Fingal" is directed against more than the County Council....

author by Punditpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

campaigner should realise this. Roger Cole does not have a profile on bin tax but he does in other areas of work. Only juvenile trots would believe that voters will be motivated by a single issue. I think that you will also find that the bin tax is not the major issue in that particular Ward in Dun Laoire.

author by Rosapublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yes, the Dublin figures for the latest opinion poll show that SF will make a big breakthrough and LP will increase their seats. FG is likely to loose seats in Dublin. What the figures dont preclude or hide is that here and there a far left candidate will be elected. This local variation willl not show up in a Dublin wide opinion poll.

My predictions are based on my knowledge of the anti-bin tax campaign and the state of the far left in various parts of Dublin. If you look closely at my predictions you will see that other than Clare Daly and Ruth Coppinger, there are no other far left candidates who are fairly certain of winning. The tide is certainly in favour of SF in working class areas so it will be very tough for the left candidates to get alook in.

So, again, taking a risk here's the far left candidates who I think have a fair chance of winning a seat:

Ciaran Perry(Cabra), Joan Collins(Crumlin), Joe Mooney(North Inner City), Mick Murphy (Tallaght), Richard Boyd Barrett(Dun Laoghaire).

Heres the ones who have an outside chance of winning a seat:

Brid Smith (Ballyfermot), John O Neill (Finglas), Michael O Brien (Swords).

Contrary to my earlier posting, Election Nerd is right, Ballyfermot is a three seater, making it very difficult for Brid Smith to win a seat, despite her active role in the local Anti Bin Tax Campaign.

author by standornotstandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Joe you are clearly removed from the bin tax campaign. The reason why there is less activity in the bin tax campaign is not because of the elections but because the councils in DLR and the City are not currently implementing non collection. In DLR and the City the campaing is ticking over with regular public meetings and other activity such as signing up members.

I can't see how an election campaign where houses are canvassed and thousands of leaflets are distributed automatically cuts accross the anti bin tax campaign. Surely the election can be used as an oppurtunity to re-engage with thousands of people and bild non payment and opposition to non collection.

I have not read the manifestoes of the ISN, WCA or many independents but I do know that the SP and the SWP have always said that winning positions in Parliamants and councils will not be a way of fundamentally changing society or even defeating the bin tax. If concessions are to be won from the government it will primarily through action taken by people themselves.

I am not saying that people are to 'dumb' to reach their own conclusions or to engage in the ideas to change society. You are the one putting words in my mouth. When I say 'we' I am talking to the activists in the bin tax campaign. Like it or not, the bin tax activists are the leadership in this movement, this is fact.

I don't see what real point you are making about consciouness. Do you not recognise that people in general do look towards elections as a way of punishing the government? The person that stands aside and refuses to participate in an election is the one claiming to be above people and the 'true' revolutionaries. By not standing you are saying that people are stupid for not seeing that capitalist institutions wont bring real change to society and you are maintaining your revolutionary purity by not standing.

i am not claiming that we should be workerist and follow the lowest common denominator in the working class. I say we need to win over the majority of the working class to our ideas, this can only be done if we take into account their current consciouness. Currently the working class do look towards elections, not to stand in these elections would be to abandon the working class and would mean that an oppurtunity to put forward left wing revolutionary politics to a large number of workers would be squandered.

I'll ignore your last few comments, they are an attempt to start a troll fest. All i will say is that Lenin has a very good record regarding democracy and it was trotskyism that was probably the most effective opponent of Fascism.

author by VBpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'd also say The SP might have an outside chance of taking a second seat in Mulhuddart as well as taking seats in Dundrum and Balbriggan.

author by OABTApublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You are the one who attempted to start the Trollfest by describing Joes comments as ultra left. Joe merely responded to you in kind. Seeing as you have raised the issue perhaps you will point to instances in Ireland where Trotskyists were most effective in combatting Fascism. In these days of Google I would caution you against trying to write the WSM and AFA out of the picture. You might not realise that the term Trotskyite-Fascist was a term of abuse that Stalinists used to hurl at Trotskyists and was not a case of Joe abusing you. I will put that down to juvenile ignorance.

As for Lenins committment to democracy, that is to rdiclious to even attempt to deal with at length. It will suffice to mention: banning strikes, banning factions in the party, banning all opposition parties, militarising labour.

author by Earthlingpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Not a chance of winning in Balbriggan.
Even the candidate is aware of this.

If Joan Collins wins a seat it won't be for the SP as they are not running her.

author by tostandornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

For a good article on Lenins real record on democracy follow the link below. Anyone that hav any degree of critical thought and is genuinly interested in looking through the lies spread by the capitalist press and the political opponents of Lenin should have a read of it.

Related Link: http://www.socialismtoday.org/80/lenin.html
author by Dan Darepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Not a hope in Dundrum either. Not even if you get all of the patients in the CMH to vote for Lisa which is unlikely. Some will vote for Deirdre Cronin.

author by VBpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What do you base this on? Unless you have some concrete experience on the ground or some accurate opinion polls I can't see how you can authoritivly say whether of not people will get elected or not. you are simply speculating

author by OABTApublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Are you denying that:

1. Lenin banned factions in the Party.

2. Lenin banned all opposition parties.

3. Lenin made strikes illegal.

He did this when he was in power.

If you are denying it then you are only fooling yourself.

author by Rosapublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Watch out on the wishful thinking front VB, of which all us lefties are notoriously prone to. I'd love to see Tadhg and Lisa win, dont know anything about Helen but would like SP to get second seat.

Objectively, I think the Bin Tax campaigns unpopularity amongst the middle class and the strength of the Greens in Balbriggan will go against Tadhg. Lisa would have a better chance and there are some working class strongholds in the ward but she's been working away there for years and has'nt made the breakthrough yet.

Unfortunately, the SF tide I mentioned rule out the second seat SP in Mullhuddart.

All the better if Im wrong but we've got to deal with the world as it is not as we'd like it to be.

author by Dan Darepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"you are simply speculating"

As are you. There is the poll which shows Labour and SF at 15% and as has been stated there is no increase for 'others'.

author by Earthlingpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think the candidate (i.e. Tadgh is a good judge). What do you base your opinion on?

author by tostandornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Only opposition parties that took up arms in an attempt to return Russia capitalism were banned - FACT

In the soviets anarchists and rank and file members of the Mensheviks and SRs were allowed to participate and they did so until the Stalinists consolidated power AFTER lenins death - FACT

Strikes that were initiated by the capitalist class in an attempt to restore capitalism were banned. This was an absolutly correct thing to do. Look at Venezuala for example, when the capitalists are threatened they can strike in an attempt to take done the government, when that government is a progressive one that is bringing in serious benefits to the working class that that strike has to be opposed. It is not strikes per se we should support but the working class.

Read the article. for FACTS if you don't it is you that is fooling yourself.

author by VBpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I probably am speculating, but you are as well. Maybe we should wait until the 12 June!!

author by Boredpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Can you take your Lenin good/bad trolling somewhere else.
Any chance of IMC setting up some sort of romper room for the kiddies.

author by Bolshevikpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

All strikes were banned. If the workers supported the Bolshevik Government then why was there a need to ban all strikes? Would the SP ban anti Government striles if they took power?

author by Razinpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thats it comrades, what happened in Russia nearly a century ago, what lenin had for breakfast etc etc is more important than what leftist are doing in ireland today.

Fine, throw in your tuppenceworth about the relevence or otherwise of standing in elections today but for heavens sake keep your history lessons to the late night pub sessions.

author by tostandornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I am not a SP member so can't speak for them.

If the anti government strikes were capitalists strikes that were being used in an attempt to overthrow a democratically elected and popular working class government then I would definitly oppose them. Eg if the banks and the big manufacturing companies decided to close down, lock out workers and put scabs and facsists on a picket to keep the industries closed then these 'strikes' should be smashed.

If the strikes were workers strikes that were trying to achieve goals that did not include the overthrow of the aforementioned 'government' then I would support their right to strike.

author by Clearpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"when that government is a progressive one that is bringing in serious benefits to the working class that that strike has to be opposed"

So it should be illegal for workers to oppose the Government if its a SP one. Some democracy!

author by Joepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Actually 'standornotstand' its precisly because I am involved in the campaigns that I'm aware of how low the level of activity is and what the reasons are for this (ie 'wait till the elections'.) I'm also aware of the furious local carveups going on as political organisations try and monopolise resistance in 'their' are so they can be the 'anti-bin tax candidate'. There are echos of this in the thread above (Finglas) and we have already seen it on other threads in relation to Dundrum.

I'd also suggest that the lessons of Fingal and Dublin South is that sitting on our hands and waiting for the council to get back on the offensive may not be the smartest of tactics. Except for those whose 'strategy' is based around creating matyrs that can later be run in an election.

As I said with the 'cutting across' argument the proof is in the pudding. The lack of activity, in particular the complete lack of co-ordintated activity is all the proof we need that the elections have already 'cut across' the campaign.

As should be clear we are not talking of what the "SP and the SWP have always said that winning positions in Parliamants and councils will not be a way of fundamentally changing society or even defeating the bin tax" in backrooms or even in their paper. We are talking of what they are and will be saying in their manifestos and on the door step. The nature of electoral cage is that candidates or parties who run under the slogan 'vote for me but it will make no difference' don't do that well. But if your aware of either of these parties or indeed any other pointing out in their manifesto that a vote for them will have no impact on the implementation of the tax then feel free to correct me.

"I am not saying that people are to 'dumb' to reach their own conclusions or to engage in the ideas to change society. "

I suggest you look at what you wrote then, it seems be to be very heavily based on the idea that ordinary people are incapable of understanding why elections are meaningless but that 'we' understand. Thinking about this over lunch I realised that even that argument is pretty dumb because MOST of the working class WILL NOT VOTE in the local elections. They already understand in other words what you claim they cannot. To that extent your playing the role of 'useful idiots' for the ruling class in convincing people who have realised the whole game is a farce that there may be some use in it after all.

You can also put forward arguments during an election without having to make yourself a candidate. I've taken part in anarchist campaigns based on 'whoever you vote for the government wins' and generally people have no problem understanding these arguments at all. Some agree, some don't but the idea that the power really rests elsewhere is a simple concept.

"I'll ignore your last few comments, they are an attempt to start a troll fest."

I don't think you understood what I was getting at so I'll do it again.

Stalin at the height of his power and influence popularised the label 'trotskyite - fascist' among many who called themselves communists. This was possible in part because of his ability to murder his opponents. However using this label today, without the power to back it up not only makes you sound stupid but simply links you with a muderous dictator.

Lenin popularised the 'ultra left' label at the height of his power among many who called themselves communists. This was possible in part because of his ability to murder his opponents. However using this label today, without the power to back it up not only makes you sound stupid but simply links you with a muderous dictator.

In other words the label 'ultra left' is about as useful as 'trotskyite fascist' - that is not at all. It may say something to the converted, to the rest of us it looks like dodging an argument by sheltering behind scripture.


[I won't bother arguing about Lenin's 'democratic credentials' or otherwise as arguing this with trots is as productive as arguing for evolution with creationists. People can judge the evidence for themselves]

author by OABTApublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"I am not a SP member so can't speak for them. "

And the cock crowed 3 times.

'strikes' should be smashed.

"If the strikes were workers strikes that were trying to achieve goals that did not include the overthrow of theaforementioned 'government' then I would support their right to strike."

So workers do not have the right to overthrow a government that is acting against them.

author by Bored and irritatedpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Can't you all just fuck off with the history lessons. Lets keep to the here and now and stay on subject.

author by tostandornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As i said I am not a member of the SP so I can't speak for them and what I say is obviously not SP policy.

But if the strike is a workers striek then their right to strike should be defended. If it is a 'strike of capital' then it should be smashed.

If tomorrow a government was elected that set about nationalising the top industries the capitalist class would not lie down they will oppose it. They probably would close the banks, factories and transport, if they did this they would put 'pickets' on these industries to maintain the 'strike'. These pickets would be manned by fascists and scabs. The aim of this 'striek' would be the overthrow of the aforementioned governmnt. In this case I would argue that they do not have the right to 'strike' , the fascist pickets should be smashed and these industries be nationalised under workers control.

author by Joepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Err

"I am not a member of the SP" to .. "nationalising the top industries"

An ex-member then?

[Militant are the only trot group I'm aware of that used that odd formulation]

author by tostandornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'OABTA ',
Workers do have a right to overthrow ANY government that is not fully acting in their interests. What I am saying is that capitalists shoudl not have the right to overthrow through 'strikes' a democratically elected and popular workers government.

I really am not a member of the SP.

author by Raypublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nationalising the top industries (what was it, the top 100?) is just common sense, and the kind of thing that anybody could call for.

If we have to continue this argument, can you tell us exactly how you distinguish between a workers strike and a 'strike of capital'? If a strike is against the interests of a workers state does it automatically become a 'strike of capital'?

Of course, there's no need to continue this argument. But maybe next time you could present your case for standing in elections without having to call people 'ultra-left'.

(Another phrase in common circulation. Just the other week my mum called me an 'ultra-left, and she's not a member of the SP either)

author by huummpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I dont think Militant ever used the formulation 'top industries'. Militant and the SP always used the 'commanding heights of the economy'

author by observerpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yes this is nonsense. But it is inormative as this is the nonsense that the candidates of all those micro groups adhere to. About as much relevance to Dublin in 2004 as parties of Orleanist and Bourbonists in Paris. Except in so far that if people are aware of this then they will keep well away from them.

author by tostandornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Again, I am NOT a member of the SP!! How many times do I have to say this?!

The phrase 'ultra left' is used by many many people on the left to describe some anarchists and groups like the Sparts. MAny many groups and individuals on the left also talk about nationalising the top industries - this is the essence of socialism after all.


I think it is quite easy to distinguish between a workers strike and a strike of capital. I already pointed to the example of Venezuala where there were such strikes happened that were directed at overthrowing a reforming government.

author by Joepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think the exact formulation was 'nationalise the top 100 industries'. I remember it because I always wondered
1. Who decided on the 'top 100' as opposed to the 'top 50'.
2. How come the number never changed from Britain to Ireland despite a rather large difference in the number of industries in each.

But otherwise whether or not you want to admit to being a SP member that phrase and the careless use of 'ultra-left' suggest you have been spending a lot of time hanging out with them. As does you odd argument on going for elections because it is what the workers expect, something again unique (in Ireland at least) to the SP.

author by Raypublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

...then you should be able to tell us how its done.
For example, I'd argue that a lockout, or maybe a deliberate export of capital, could be described as a 'capitalist strike'.
But if workers don't go into work because they're unhappy with something, and nobody is preventing them from going into work if they want, then that is a workers' strike, right?
Its kind of an important question.

Oh, and my mistake. It isn't the top _100_ companies that the SP are always talking about nationalising, its the top _150_. You can't possibly be a member of the SP, because otherwise you would have corrected me, right?

author by Joepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You also linked to a (pretty dreadful) article on the SP website (http://www.socialismtoday.org/80/lenin.html). Not all that likely if you were in the SWP for instance.

Plus (as OBATA) you have been a bit of an expert on the exact size of the Finglas SP and how much they have done.

author by tostandornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"if workers don't go into work because they're unhappy with something, and nobody is preventing them from going into work if they want, then that is a workers' strike, right"

Yes this is right. I never said otherwise. I would not support the banning of workers strikes. I support the smashing of capitlaist strikes ie export of capital lockouts etc.

I put the link to the Socialism today article because I read it recently and it is a good article. Socialism Today is a half decent journal and it actually come out quite regular, that is why I read it. I alos read the British SWP journal regularly and anything else i coem accross.

author by tostandornottostandpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I don't think I mentioned the Finglas SP at all!

author by Joepublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You mentioned them (but called youself OBATA). You use of the 2nd identity was given away when you carelessly posted at OBATA defending remaks you made as tovoteornot. I'd also bet you are posting nearer the start of the thread using at least one more identity. This is another stylistic feature of SP posters here. I think I've now worked out which SP member you are so I'm bored with this argument.

Anyway I thought I'd offer a counter recommendation for an article to read on the Russian revolution. It actually covers a lot of the issues under discussion here as well as it goes beyond the 'oh no he didn't oh yes he did' level of debate. It's at http://struggle.ws/rbr/freerev.html

One quote from it, from the year of your 'ultra left' expression

Furthermore as Malatesta the Italian anarchist wrote in 1919

"Even Bonaparte helped defend the French Revolution against the European reaction, but in defending it he strangled it. Lenin, Trotsky and comrades are certainly sincere revolutionaries, and they will not betray what they take as revolution, but they are preparing the governmental apparatus which will help those who follow them to profit by the revolution and destroy it. They will be the first victims of their methods, and with them, I fear, the revolution will collapse. History repeats itself, mutatis mutandis: and the dictatorship of Robespierre brought Robespierre to the guillotine and prepared the way for Napoleon."

author by Raypublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

""if workers don't go into work because they're unhappy with something, and nobody is preventing them from going into work if they want, then that is a workers' strike, right""

"Yes this is right. I never said otherwise. I would not support the banning of workers strikes. I support the smashing of capitlaist strikes ie export of capital lockouts etc."

This is not compatible with your earlier claim that (in Russia) 'Strikes that were initiated by the capitalist class in an attempt to restore capitalism were banned.' In Petrograd in 1921, for example, workers went on strike for better conditions. They were not locked out of their workplaces, nor were the strikes a result of capital export. The Bolsheviks responded by declaring martial law.

So, did Lenin ban workers' strikes?
Or were these strikes capitalist? If you think they were capitalist, what are your grounds for the claim?

author by releventpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 16:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What the fuck has a strike in Petrograd in 1921 got t do with the local elections.

Editors please step in an paste these posts elsewhere.

author by Leonpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 16:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The SP love the Bolsheviks, so if they ever got power we know what sort of stuff they would be up to.

If the vote could change anything they'd make it illegal.

author by Bystanderpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 16:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Another 17 residents from Dublin 5 and Dublin 7 were hit with two years charge, plus costs, plus witness expenses today in the Dictrict Court. This is added to the 15 cases lost last week in the same court , the two the week before and the 130 other householders who were hit with decrees in the last 15 months. No sign yet of an appeal of the High Court decision in January. Where's the money gone that was supposed to fund the court hearings? A desultory defence today that the judge had no choice but to dismiss. No obvious support from the " campaign" and householders out of pocket. Will the anti-waste charge candidates from the SP and SWP be setting aside the others elements of party policy that make them unelectable or will they be using the bin charge as a smoke screen to elect the usual no-hopers?

author by SP - SPpublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 17:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No we'd just bring in electronic voting instead. At least that way people would think that they are participating in a free and fair election.

Remember it is not those that cast the votes that decide elections it is those that count them

author by hs - sppublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 17:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Or sinn Fein, workers party, workers solidarity movement, working class action, all the community activists involved, the campaign itself, unallinged anarchists, indymediaers or pretty much anyone who supported non payment.

(sorry bystander it's hard to have a proper sectarian scrap when you don't write your political affiliation so I just put it all in)

How about a report about the court case minus the petty pointscoring? It might even be informing ; -)

And now we're being blamed for electronic voting!!! What next? Sauce for your hamster anyone?

author by pspublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 17:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Is that Hadden's hamster.

author by hs - sppublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 17:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

...peter eats catholic babies in the true communist tradition : )

author by pspublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 17:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hadden's hamster aka Blockader

author by hs - sppublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 18:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hamster, Blockader????? Is this a new code, I dunno. anyway all the comrades eat babies. Both catholic and prodestant in an unsectarian manner.

author by pspublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 18:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Blockader - Voice editor.
The man who whips the comrades into line.
Hasn't worked too well on JC.
Hadden's Hamster.

author by hs - sppublication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 18:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

..he doesn't eat babies at all.

No stevie I'm sorry stevie stop it stop it. i'll be a good comrade...

author by Amused - FF Dublin 15publication date Fri Feb 20, 2004 20:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The infighting on this thread is hilarious. Let.s admit it folks, there has been no effective campaign since you were out-thought and out-fought in Fingal. Spare us the illusions of extra seats in the local elections.

author by OABTApublication date Sat Feb 21, 2004 21:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Either you misinterpted me or I was unclear in what I wrote. No way was I suporting the SP line. I was attacking their position on the USSR and baning of strikes. The number of SPers in Finglas is not a State secret. They are only kidding themselves by pretending that they are as strong or stronger than the ISN. If that was the case then McCamley would be standing as a candidate.

author by Joepublication date Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Woops, too much coffee over lunch on Friday. Reading back over the thread its clear that OBATA is not whateverhisname SPer. Apologies.

author by hee hee hee. - much prefer the heeheehee to the hohoho. more oirish.publication date Mon Mar 01, 2004 13:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

papa nöel, did really think you had "out thunk" us all on the left? tsk tsk.
The Bin Tax campaign saw markedly increased use of the prison system no?
Shannon saw markedly increased use of the prison system as well no?
You're not really "out-thinking" at all just you're just being "heavy handed". Now be careful where you lay those "heavy hands", you may give the trots and the shinners a clatter but the left is a much broader church and you have not properly protected two of your flanks. Be careful of your eggies.


http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61300&condense_comments=false#comment47489

author by -publication date Mon May 31, 2004 18:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Michael Mc Dowell's own Nicola Byrne of Malahide and Portmarnock, will not be campaigning against the bin tax, but shall be focussing on the greed is right ethos, and doing her best to out-snob Mary O'Donnell O'Brien who liked her surname so much she double barrelled it. b'ouqét mikey.

Nicola Byrne
Email nicolabyrnepd@eircom.net
Address 2 Ard na Mara
Phone 086 3820745

author by tallymanpublication date Mon Nov 22, 2004 22:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Does anyone find it very odd that 29% of the Immigration Control Platforms votes in Cabra/Glasnevin transfered to Cieran Perry of working Class Action?

What does this say about WCA?

author by JBarrettpublication date Tue Nov 23, 2004 00:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well done Tallyman, sharp as a razor, ya don't miss a trick. A mere 6 months after the elections you've broken this huge story. Charlie Bird must be watching his back! If the truth is known the ICP's Postman Pat and Perry actually had a vote sharing electoral pact. The iwca did their figures - the darkie vote or the white supremacy vote? The white supremacy vote won hands down - afterall Dublin 7 is well known as a hotbed of fascism.

author by Joepublication date Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think its a pretty much an across the board observation that the racist vote tended to transfer to the left and republicans where they were reasonably silent on the referendum. This isn't so much courting the racist vote as a sizeable minority of anti-establishment racists voting for anti-establishment candidates ahead of establishment soft-racist candidates.

So while I think there was a big problem with WCA dodging the referendum issue I'd be rather amazed if they were chasing ICP votes.

author by Tallymanpublication date Tue Nov 23, 2004 17:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This ICP creature was particulary disgusting. He did not just play the race card a bit, he was an overt racist and stood exclusivly on a racist programme. I find it unbelievable that if WCA had opposed the referendum and opposed racism in their literature that they would have got 29% of this bigots transfers. It is obvious that WCA disgracefully ditched any mention of class unity against racism in an attempt to court votes of racists.

author by tallypersonpublication date Tue Nov 23, 2004 17:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Tallyman, if you were truly acquainted with the intricacies of PR you will know that the votes of minor independents and oddballs goes disproportionately to other minor candidates and parties regardless of ideology. A few years ago Aengus O Snodaigh got a large slice of Aine ni Chonaill's preferences even though he was the only candidate O'Conaill had personnally targetted!! Like it or not, those who vote for left parties and candidates often share the same anti-establishment motivations of those who vote for extreme rightists.

author by tallymanpublication date Tue Nov 23, 2004 18:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I am very aware of the workings of the PRSTV system and because i am well informed I am saying that the transfers from one candidate says alot about that candidate.

This is how the ICP's transfers broke down.

Labour - 6.27%
Fianna Fail - 27.39%
WCA - 29.04%
Fine Gael - 9.9%
Greens - 10.89%
Sinn Fein - 3.96%
N/T - 12.54%

I think this clearly shows that there is a clear corelation between how the transfers of the ICP are distributed and what the other party's position is on the referendum. Those parties that were the most vocal in opposing the referendum got the least votes. Look at SF, who in the national media were the most vocal - they just got under 4% of the transfers. Labour also opposed the referendum and only picked up 6.27% of the transfers. Now look at the flip-side, Fianna Fail who proposed the referendum and were campaigning for a yes vote got a huge 27.39% of the transfers from the ICP. You are right to say that the WCA would have picked up more transfers then expected due to both organisations appearing as 'nonparty' on the ballot but this does not explain a huge 29% transfer rate! How can you claim that the WCA did not downplay opposition to racism and the referendum. If they did what they shoudl have done they would have achieved no more that 10% of the transfers at a maximum.

author by tallypersonpublication date Tue Nov 23, 2004 19:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It does stand out right enough but I would still contend that the major part of that was, as you say, the non party tag. Besides, what did Talbot get - 300? It was obviously a disgruntled odd ball vote and the type of people who will vote only for independnets and those they see as outside the loop. Obviously a certain amount of Talbot's vote was anti-immigrant but any half sane person who supported the referendum and immigration control was more likely surely to vote for FF or FG?

Finally, one more anecdote, I recall at the count seeing referndum and ballot sheets being separated that had number ones for Kevin Wingfield of SWP and Yes on the referendum and No 1 for Mary Lou in Euros!! Riddle me that!

author by Bobo the bearpublication date Tue Nov 23, 2004 20:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Talbot of the ICP got 300 votes. 88 of those transferred to Perry of Working Class Action. This is a tiny sample to be working from in any case, but the key factor is that they were the only two candidates on the ballot as independent.

Anyone who was at any of the counts can tell you that independents tend to transfer to each other disproportionately. A certain number of people vote for all the independents as a kind of fuck you to the political parties. In other words, tallyman's central thesis is just wrong.

There is also a certain lunatic vote which just can't be explained, again as anybody who has ever looked at transfer patterns can tell you. These factors can more than account for a measly 88 votes without scrabbling around for shit to throw at Perry.

A final point: Joe said that the racist vote generally transferred to the left where the left hadn't done much around the referendum. Is there any basis for that comment? I can't find a single other ward where both an open racist and a left candidate stood.

author by Joepublication date Tue Nov 23, 2004 20:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The pattern elsewhere refers to the referendum vote rather than openly racist candidates. Apart from that it would seem obvious that if Ciaran was associated with the anti-referendum campaign he'd have got fewer transfers from ICP voters but I don't think that proves that was the reason why he was silent on it.

Anyway he reads indymedia, he can clarify his position on any of this himself if he wants. I could make a pretty good guess on the reasons for the WCA non-position but it would be better if one of you did so.

author by Tallymanpublication date Wed Nov 24, 2004 22:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

300 is a very good sample by the way. Generally anything over about 150 gives a fairly representative result.

I agree that the fact that both candidates were on the ballot as 'independents' this would lead to a higher then expected transfer rate. But 29% is well beyond what anyone could expect. The ICP vote on the whole was a conscious racist vote. The ICP candidate stood calling for foreigners out and for keeping Ireland white and other similar filth. those that voted for him were racists. I find it very hard to believe that consious racists would transfer to a candidate that firmly stood for a No vote and against racism. If the WCA had raised class unity in opposition to racism and called for a no vote in their literature I find it beyond belief that there would be a 29% transfer rate.

author by Kevin Wingfield - SWPpublication date Thu Nov 25, 2004 16:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Tallyperson wrote:- "Finally, one more anecdote, I recall at the count seeing referndum and ballot sheets being separated that had number ones for Kevin Wingfield of SWP and Yes on the referendum and No 1 for Mary Lou in Euros!! Riddle me that!"
This doesn't surprise me. I discussed with people on the doorstep the referendum and my opposition to it. Many who were symapthetic to our campaign disagreed with us on the referendum. Essentially they had been led to believe there are limited resources and we should "look after our own first".
Typically they like our profile of fighting on local and anti-war issues but we had not persuaded them of how the constitutional amendment was racist.
I do not believe these people to be hardened racists.
My small anecdote. A woman who vigorously disagreed with me on the referendum took the initiative in calling us together with her neighbours when three Bangladeshi neighbours were attacked recently. Out of that came a protest in the area "Ballymun says no to racism" with herself at the head of it.
Our rulers fill the air with racism ans some of it takes people in. By fighting alongside on bread and butter issues and making clear your opposition to racism and treating people seriously it is possible to undercut it.
Kevin Wingfield

author by Ballymunnerpublication date Thu Nov 25, 2004 16:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I thought you would have found it odd that someone voted for SF in the Euros and yourself in the Locals considering your very vocal and prominant support for Joe Higgins on the canvass.

author by tallypersonpublication date Thu Nov 25, 2004 17:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why is it odd that someone voting for an SWP candidate in locals would vote for ML in Euros? In the scheme of things they are far closer in the minds of working class voters than most of the others. Besides, this again comes back to the question of people having some stereotypical 'left' voter who follows the instructions in the last leaflet they were given! Doesn't happen folks. Even parties like SF are happy with 65/70% internal transfer rates between their own candidates.

author by Caobhinpublication date Thu Nov 25, 2004 18:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What is of real importance. as opposed to the average 1:3 independent-independent transfer pattern common to all elections. is the breakdown of the two Labour candidates transfers and how they heavily favoured the right.

Transfers of F.Gibney: (675)
Fianna Fail 51 – 7.6 %
Labour 382 –56.6 %
Fine Gael 114 – 16.9 %
Green 61 – 9.1%
Perry (Ind) 24 – 3.6%
NT 23 – 3.4%


Transfer of Carr Surplus (181)
Fianna Fail 31 – 17.2 %
Fine Gael 91 – 50.3%
Perry (Ind) 13 –3.6%
NT 46 – 25.5%

As Perry lost out in the end by less than 100 votes, FF/FG have real cause to be thankful for the services of the loyal opposition of Rabbitte & co. No doubt if the PDs had ran this sorry story would have been worse.

author by fpublication date Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Looking at transfers of individual candidates can be a bit dodgy, especially when they are candidates with a small number of votes. You must remember that in many cases there will be other factors involved that will influence transfers other then party affiliation, such as people voting for their local candidate and giving their transfer to another local candidate, this will distort the transfer rates. Just look at the transfers from SF's Ray O'Kelly to FF's Tony Fox in the Dundrum ward. O'Kelly transfered very heavily to Fox, I think about 15%, this was not because of SF being allies with FF but because these candidates both lived on the same street.

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