Saddam is captured

by Charlie - Freedom for Iraqi's Sun Dec 14, 2003 13:41

Great news that Saddam has been caught. Spell his name backwards. Maddas

Madd -Ass.

What time is party?

"I told you we would find you"

by Hussein Huesseini - Freedom for my people Sun Dec 14, 2003 13:58 Dublin

TIKRIT, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. forces have captured Saddam HusseIn in a late night raid in his hometown, according to the head of the Coalition Provisional Authority.

"Ladies and gentleman, we got him," L. Paul Bremer announced Sunday. The announcement was greeted with cheers from the audience.

Lt. General Ricardo Sanchez showed video of Saddam, who had graying hair and a long beard, undergoing a medical examination after his capture.

Several Iraqi journalists stood up and shouted "Death to Saddam" after the video was shown.

Sanchez said the former leader was not injured and has been "talkative and cooperative," after 4th Infantry Division and special operations forces nabbed him at a "rural farmhouse."

"Today is a great day for the Iraqi people and the coalition," Sanchez said.

Not a single shot was fired in "Operation Red Dawn," carried out based on intelligence gathered over several months, Sanchez said.

by inexricably linked Sun Dec 14, 2003 14:24

what is there to celebrate? one dictator caught by a bigger and more dangerous one? why do you wish saddam to die, and use the word 'hopefully', Saddam will also become a hero now, and remember who put him there in the first place? the war is still on over there, is iraq really a better place for the invasion? is anyone going to benifit from saddam's death?

by Hard luck lefties Sun Dec 14, 2003 15:42

It's a party for everyone who loves democracy. For those who've just lost their pet butcher, I'm sure it must be so so depressing.

by jeff Sun Dec 14, 2003 15:52

"Is anyone going to benefit from Saddam's death?'

The guy is a nut job, and has a proven predeliction for instability.

I was against the war because of innocents.But that was then, we must work with now...


Now, we have a very positive situation; Loony has been captured.

If one looks at the middle east dictators, it is quite evident that no one could tell what Saddam might have done next.Qaddafi has been working to have sanctions against Libya removed, Syria mainly worked with Hezbollah, and the only leader out celebrating openly on September 11 was Sad-man.

If I was a Kurd I would benefit from Sadman's death because I would be smiling.Smiling is proven to be healthy for ya!

Of course, many ppl will be asking "What about Haliburton, etc, etc?" Today, though these questions are on the minds of ordinary Iraqi's, the main issue is celebration. The Devil that bled them for the last thirty odd years has been shown for what he is ; a snivelling, hobo like coward.

So, three cheers for the People of Iraq. Today is their (Re)Birthday.

by jeff Sun Dec 14, 2003 16:03

The cut and paste below is interesting angle. Iraqi's don't want foreigners in their country.

I personsally think though, that if it were my family members murdered by Sadman and his tweedledum,tweedledee pair of sons, this would be the best day of my life. I would also let a few rockets of against the town of Tikrit. I would consider them whoremongers.



World - Reuters

Arabs Have Mixed Emotions About Saddam Capture
46 minutes ago Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Edmund Blair

CAIRO (Reuters) - Arabs greeted the capture of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) with divided emotions Sunday, welcoming the arrest of a dictator yet tinged with regret that a symbol of Arab defiance against the United States was behind bars.


Reuters Photo



Some feared Saddam's capture would boost President Bush (news - web sites), who many Arabs believe has waged a campaign against them and other Muslims after the September 11 attacks. But others said the fight against U.S. occupation would go on.


"It is happy news but we wish it were the Iraqi people who had captured him, not U.S. troops, because this will give Bush a boost in the upcoming election," said Bahraini salesman Hussein Jafar as news of Saddam's capture swept through Arab capitals.


U.S. troops captured Saddam, grubby and bearded, when he was dug out by troops from a narrow hiding hole during a raid on a farm near his hometown of Tikrit.


"I only wish it was not the Americans who got him. I don't like Saddam but as an Arab I wouldn't like to see them (Americans) dragging him around Baghdad," said Syrian student Abdul-Nasser.


For others, the capture was disappointing news. Saddam may have been seen as a dictator who oppressed his people, but many also saw him as the only Arab leader who stood up to the United States, which they said rode roughshod through the region.


"Of course it's bad news. To us, Saddam was a symbol of defiance to the U.S. plans in the region. And we support any person who stands in the face of the American dominance," said Azzam Hneidi, an Islamist member of Jordan's parliament.


KEEPING UP THE FIGHT


Others said the U.S. success might prove fleeting, saying Iraqis were not fighting for Saddam but for an end to the U.S. occupation of Iraq (news - web sites).


"The situation in Iraq will not change much. I don't think the resistance was linked to Saddam and it will increase as was the case after the death of Uday and Qusay," said Yemeni political analyst Saeed Shabet, referring to Saddam's two sons.


In Gaza and the West Bank, where Palestinians are fighting against an Israeli occupation, some were in somber mood that the United States, perceived as providing unswerving support for Israel, could claim victory.


"It's a black day in history. I am saying so not because Saddam is an Arab but because he is the only man who said 'no' to American injustice in the Middle East," said Fadiq Husam, a 33-year-old taxi driver in the West Bank city of Ramallah.


But in Kuwait, occupied by Iraq in 1990-1991, the reaction was one of joy. Some cars honked horns along a seaside road that during the occupation had been lined with Iraqi army positions. Others sent mobile phone messages to spread the news.


"We are so happy they got him...The people of Iraq have been brainwashed by the Saddam regime. They need another 20 years to realize that the Kuwaitis are not to blame for the Iraqis' plight," said Kuwaiti Mohammad al-Hudieb, cruising the Arabian Gulf seafront in his jeep.

by random input Sun Dec 14, 2003 16:42

Now the real question...

What kind of a trial will Hussein face? Will he go before the warcrimes court in the Hague like Milosovic, and have a chance to argue his case in the wider context of realpolitik in the Middle East?

Or will he be put before an aribitary 'Iraqi' (ie US influenced) tribunal? Will there be a deep and thourough investigation into his crimes, and the comapanies and governments who funded and supplied him? Will further prosecutions of westerners and Russians follow on from this, afterall aiding a war criminal is a very serious issue, no?

My guess is a showtrial with a nice execution to follow.

by hooded idiot Sun Dec 14, 2003 16:54

How exactly does capturing Saddam justuify aiding the killing of innocent people?

Does it also justify the sanctions which killed millions of children?

Wise up, those of us who are opposed to the U.S using Shannon have never claimed to support Saddam, in fact we've repeatedly said we don't.

by judge dredd Sun Dec 14, 2003 16:56

Do you think for a moment that the Brits and Yanks want all the dirty linen about how they financed Hussein and supplied him with weapons (before he became public enemy number one) to come out in the open ?
They have had enough trouble with Milosevic whose trial is still dragging on without any clear end in sight or guarantee of a conviction.

No way Jose - a trial in the Hague would be far too difficult to stage and uncertain in its outcome (i.e. in terms of what might leak out during ot). Also the security costs would be prohibitive.

A quick kangaroo court in Iraq before his own people (or at least a few handpicked stooges allegedly representing the Iraqi people) is probably the best solution ...

Or maybe he will conveniently croak while in captivity ..... the old cyanide pill routine ......
("Look Saddam, why don't you make it easy for everybody ......")

But a fair trial ?

Well speaking for myself I'd prefer to wait for the airborne pigs to arrive .....

by iosaf Sun Dec 14, 2003 17:49

incorporating the Special supplement "What can you do for the Irish Oil Industry"
it has long been observed,
that on it's _non banking_ days
the mass readily absorbs shite.

The Sun / Sunday Papers / Sunday Review / Sunday Preview incorporates this week the Special "what can you do for the Irish Oil Industry".
We have played no rôle as a nation, state, country or people in the arrest of the genocidal mass murderer, Saddam Hussein.

We are thus well placed amongst the civilised nations of the Earth, being of _proven_ solely peaceful intent, and being english speaking but not British, and being cheap and easy, and not being French or Japanese, to put ourselves now (oh Bertie your hour awaits!) in the position of
GUARANTEEing that LAW and ORDER will prevail, and that evil doers everywhere will know dat you dunno nae de hour or de moment when Uncle Sam will get you.

Might I be the first of a long line of comitted anarchists, libetarians and enemies of the White House to say
Fair Play!
Well done, Mr Bush, and Mr Rumsfield, you got the blackguard.
and it only cost you
a little over
Global Concensus
Free or even Fair Trade
many thousands of lives mostly young.
The future insecurity that we all livein now in Europe which you never seemed to grasp is just as it ever was : a finely balanced mess between totalitarianism and liberal apologism.

Haven't you done well.

¿Where now pray tell is Osama?
¿where now pray tell are the WMD?

God Bless Americ@!

you have a few hours left for best propaganda value. enjoy.

it has nothing to do with us.

by Harry Browne - Irish Anti-War Movement Sun Dec 14, 2003 18:20 harrybrowne at eircom dot net

issued to media today
Irish Anti-War Movement Press Statement, Sunday 14 December 2003

‘Criminals catching a criminal,’ peace campaigners say

SADDAM Hussein should be tried by Iraqis, the main victims of his tyranny, the Irish Anti-War Movement (IAWM) said today.

Any assessment of Saddam’s career as a despot should put the United States on trial – for supporting him through the worst of his war crimes, and for its own vicious attacks on the Iraqi people, an IAWM statement said.

“Saddam’s ‘arrest’ is a case of criminals catching a criminal,” IAWM chairman Richard Boyd Barrett said. “The US, which itself refuses to recognise the International Criminal Court, has no genuine legitimacy as a legal authority in Iraq.”

One dictator has been captured alive. Thousands of innocent civilians have died in the meantime. And it’s as true today as yesterday that the US and Britain lied about their intentions, and lied about the dangers of Iraqi WMD, in order to launch the invasion of Iraq. The US supported Saddam and continues to support vicious dictators who co-operate with US economic and military interests.

“Today’s events do nothing to redeem US behaviour in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Ireland’s complicity in it,” Mr Boyd Barrett said.

Appalling crimes against civilians continue: the nine children killed in Afghanistan earlier this month were slaughtered by an American A-10 attack aircraft – a type of craft that has been photographed on the ground in Shannon Airport. More than 14,000 US troops passed through Shannon last month alone, on their way to wage war on Iraqis, or on their way home with shattering injuries.

These grim facts put Bertie Ahern’s claims to be a longstanding peace activist in some perspective.

“The real agenda for the Iraq occupation has nothing to do with justice, no more than it does democracy for Iraqis,” Mr Boyd Barrett said. The occupation provides more than just a Middle East outpost for the US military: it offers massive profits for the US oil companies, construction firms and mercenary ‘security’ forces that are stripping Iraqi assets – and rolling in US taxpayers’ money. Some $30 billion of the $87 billion approved by the US Congress for Iraq is actually going directly to such private-sector profiteers.

Even the CIA admits that Iraqi resistance to the occupation has been growing and is not dependent on Saddam or any other individual. However, while US claims of ‘victory’ have proven premature, the danger after today’s side-show of an emboldened and ‘vindicated’ US is clear: its latest aggressive noises directed at Syria suggest that the Americans have not finished their march through the Middle East.

US actions in Iraq – with attacks on civilians, repressive curfews, collective punishment etc – increasingly resemble those of its client state, Israel, continually stepping up its own violence against Palestinians.

Opposition to the Iraq occupation, among Iraqis determined to end foreign occupation and among concerned citizens of the world, continues. American anti-war activists have called for a global day of action against the occupations of Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine, with massive demonstrations around the globe planned for next March 20th.

“On March 20th the Irish Anti-War Movement will play its part in a global movement, as we did last February 15th, when millions around the world marched against war,” Mr Boyd Barrett said.

Ends

For further info contact Richard Boyd Barrett, 087 632 9511 or
Harry Browne, 087 764 8065

by oh how great this day. Sun Dec 14, 2003 18:36

to the news, that they are truly reponsible for the arrest of genocidal mass murderer Saddam Hussein.

the arresting agents were American, and so we begin our global delight at one of the many American sites:
1. Indymedia Washington. This morning saw a high tech internet linky thing between people in Bagdad and people in Washington DC. They chatted about things including the _*thanks*_ being extended to Messrs Bush and co., for finally getting Saddam and announcing it just a few days after the Iraqi workers had agreed to organise on a non- ethnic, cultural, sectarian or nationlist basis.
http://dc.indymedia.org/feature/display/86618/index.php

2. New York City, some smart arse thinks it's all manipulation and wants to see Saddam honour his promise to tell the world about his dirty naughty deals with the Bush family through the years, (maybe when Saddam is brought to trial in Dublin).
http://nyc.nysindy.org/newswire/display/82263/index.php

3. Utah, for some reason Utah hasn't reported the great news, but is focussing on its newswire on the Andalucian social republican indepedence hopes.
(you'll get that)

South America:
Brazil. news broke at 12:57 that Saddam had been got at 08:00hs Brasília time.
It only took till 14:04 for the emotional surge which are feeling throughout the West, and the internet world:
Agora? Ha, agora "god bless America"!

You really have to see Mexico's reaction.
http://arn.espora.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/07/1736252&mode=thread

Down Africa way in Ambazonia, the Saddam news still hasn't taken to the Newswire and instead readers are being treated to a photo of a Tibetan Lama with prosthetic limbs who poignantly asks "Is china the greatest Danger?".

Back to the ally list of the USA, the japanese indymedia has an offering from "anne" in the "children and education section" reminding people not to vote for Bush.
http://japan.indymedia.org/otherpress/display/34/index.php

In Europe:
someone in Barcelona has called for libertad! for the Tikrit one, and well that shows what a varied bunch we really are. Eh? http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/63117/index.php Let it be said no a sible one of those pacifistiiis has said God Bless america.
Italy and the British are playing the "geneva convention" and silly liberal types are saying the picture of the evil doer should not have been shown for the last weekend on global TV.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/12/282830.html

now the photo above shows pùrsued mass murderer, torturer, tyrant presumed Saddam Hussein undergoing a DNA swab to make tippy toppy sure it really is Saddam and not just someone who looks like Saddam and has taken to spending time down a hole in hiding in a part of Iraq where everything has gone really hairy scary for a while, and who thought to himself: "OH shit I look really like Saddam, I better hide out till I grow a decent beard".
Now we will all know soon, (won't we) if this man really is Saddam.
[the genocidal mass murderer tortuter tyrant]
and then we'll see, coz as we all know one of the prime enemies of Western Civilisation is would then be able to help us all sort out the terrible mess he caused
for like his penance.

so we may like him again.,
and do profitably business with him,
and have our leader's pose with him for photo opportunities.
...or may be won't.

and we want liberty and freedom and elections and rights and food and a future now.

by judge dredd Sun Dec 14, 2003 18:45

Here's how the US Empire conducts fair trials against deposed "despots" ....

http://tinyurl.com/z702

by avi H. Sun Dec 14, 2003 18:51

Tell it all to the judges of Saddam's appalling crimes and the relatives of his many victims. Not enough in this pathetic, whining statement about this man's personal responsibililty for his truly evil deeds.

by Mankind Sun Dec 14, 2003 19:06

Being glad the U.S. got Saddam is morally equivalent to picking sides in the Freddy versus Jason film. It's like being glad Peter Sutcliffe killed Ted Bundy while he was on his rounds. It's like choosing between a bowl of horse shit and a bowl of cow shit. Got me?

However, have you seen the scenes of jubilation on TV? An unemotional guy firing a rifle into the sky, about twenty-five rejoicing types all pointing in the same direction for the camera, a shot of some traffic with the indistinct beeping of a horn and (my favorite) a cranky looking fat guy who seems to be staring at the camera in bewilderment as he locks up what looks like a shop.

Fasten your seatbelts as RTE radio hosts demand apologies from you yellow bellied peace lovers. De Joe Duffy will be broadcasting what he's looking at on sky news and talking about the Berlin Wall 1989 type scenes he beholds, just like he did when that statue came down.

Nobody mention the theft of Iraq's natural assets now, that would be like spoiling the plotline. Oh, good days ahead. War Rocks, it's official.

by Lone gunman Sun Dec 14, 2003 19:10

If I was Saddo,and he is rather sad at the moment.I would rather be shipped to the Hauge,[at least the nick is more clean and comfy than the rat hole he has been skulking in.Even Adolf had a better looking last bolt hole,and had at least the guts to blow his brains out.saddo didnt even try to duke it out in a last stand.]. rather than face a very pissed off court of kurds,and other folk hell bent on lynching me in the streets of Bagdad.
ever seen the nick in the hauge?You would need a division of the republican gaurd to crack it. True it might be abit embarrassing for some gory details to come out like how much technology EVERYONE sold him.

All in all a good day for the Iraqui folk and the war on terrorism.
Wonder what ol Bin Liner is thinking in whatever rat hole he is lurking?
Dont run!You will only be arrested when you are tired.

by Lone Gunman Sun Dec 14, 2003 19:27

Cry me a river,build a bridge.And GET FUCKIN OVER IT
! [As one Irish anti American Arsehole said to me on Sept11th 10 mins after we heard the news]

SOUR GRAPES from the professional peacenick [now seriously denuded and deluded .] movement.From 3000 down to 3/400 in six months?That must say somthing about the intrest that the sheeple...er...poletariart show in this matter.
The usual "we condem violence BUT........." with the usual black propaganda type press statement.

Dont worry tho! your hero Saddo will be kept alive and well,as he will be singing like a Canary about WMD,[proably in Syria]the Al Quieda link,terror contacts with the Loyalists and Provos.The Serb and Chinese connections.BE AFRAID,BE VERY AFRAID!!

by caution is advised Sun Dec 14, 2003 20:46

There are still other dangerous war criminals on the loose ....

http://bilderberg.stagyro.org/kissing.htm

by iosaf Sun Dec 14, 2003 21:19

We now have the opportunity to put to trial at least one war criminal in Iraq. Often such sinister and awesome plans as this fall on deaf ears, but sure you'll get that.

by righteous pragmatist Sun Dec 14, 2003 21:25

What the Yanks will do is hook up some high voltage cables to Saddam's tits and genitals (preferably with crocodile teeth) and we'll get him to talk in no time at all!
We do the same to "innocent" terrorists at Guantanamo already and you can't stop us!
Then they can hand him over to the joyful citizens of Baghdad who will probably feed him feet first into an industrial shredder like so many thousands of innocent Iraqis who died at his hands.
Those who live by the industrial shredder will die by the industrial shredder!

by iosaf Sun Dec 14, 2003 21:26

read this.
http://www.emergency.com/hussein1.htm
"We Ask ONLY to Be Judged by the Value of Our Information."
so say the emergency.com site set up to keep everyone tippy toppy informed as to weekend emrgency situations like this.

by iosaf Sun Dec 14, 2003 21:27

so many people have waited in patient line top get their slice of Saddam's time:
http://www.iprospect.org.uk/

by colm Sun Dec 14, 2003 21:29

There are several aspects of the story of Saddam's arrest which make me wonder how true it is.
(1) It's pretty convenient timing, coming up to Christmas and apart from being a wonderful present for Bushie, it will also cover over the unhappy tidings of more body bags at this time.
(2) At first it was reported that Saddam was wearing a false beard, then it was reported that he had been shaved, then we were shown a video of Saddam sporting a very real beard.
(3) Tony Blair tonight referred to Saddam's "demise" which has apparently ended an era - am I the only one who noticed this?
(4) Lastly, Saddam was supposed to be positively identified by DNA testing. Apart from the time taken to bring a sample to a suitable laboratory, from a farm 15km outside Tikrit, can a DNA test make a foolproof test in that time? I know that tentative conclusions can be brought in that time - but positively identified?

by Saddam Hussein - (Is he still like Saddam?) Sun Dec 14, 2003 21:30

'The enemy is trapped in the sacred land of Iraq'

Saddam Hussein made a national address on state television Monday March 24, 2003 Here are extracts from the speech

"O great people, O valiant fighters in our heroic armed forces, peace be upon you.
We know, and everyone in this brave, patient, honest, heroic nation knows, how much we tried to do what was right - so much so, perhaps, that some blamed us for how we behaved and how graciously patient we were over hardships sought by those with ulterior motives and how we responded, although it could coincide with the wishes of the weak or those who do not realise the intentions and goals of the American and British administrations, which are driven by accursed Zionism."

Now we are living through decisive days in which fighters and the great Iraqi people are doing exceptionally well and for which they deserve victory and satisfaction from God - as He promised the true faithful against the enemies of God and humanity.

It is our right, nay our duty, to be proud as fighting believers who are patient in this epic war ...

We have always complied, even with what is illegitimate and unjust among the demands and allegations of the evil ones, in the hope that the world would awake and lift the sanctions against our people and so that we avoid the evils of war.

And after they ran out of excuses or cover, the invading aggressors came openly and shamelessly with vicious intent as we know them and their intentions to be.

O brothers, you know that our country's policy is to avoid evil. But when evil comes, armed with deceit and destruction, we must face them with faith and holy struggle in a manner which dignifies us and satisfies God.

And here you are today standing, o valiant Iraqis, glorious women and brave armed forces, in a manner which pleases friends and the faithful and enrages the enemies and infidels. A stand which will make you victorious, God willing, against your enemies...

Everyone can see the aggression and injustice and those who were deceived globally by the enemies during and after 1991 have awoken with the general awareness of humanity and the sons of our nation. I herald the near-victory for our patient fighters. These are decisive days, O Iraqis, so attack as God ordered.

In these battles, in these decisive days the enemy attempted, not only with planes and missiles as in the past, but also with land forces to occupy your land...

These forces have pushed into our land and wherever they encroach they are trapped in our land, leaving the desert behind them, and find Iraqi citizens surrounding them and shooting at them. The (Ba'ath) party, the people, the clans, the Fedayeen of Saddam and national security forces alongside our brave armed forces have done great things which match their calibre.

Therefore, after underestimating you ... the enemy is trapped in the sacred land of Iraq which is being defended by its great people and army.

O brave fighters, hit your enemy with all your strength. O Iraqis, fight with the strength of the spirit of jihad which you carry in you and push them to the point where they cannot go on.

You (fighters) will reap stability and dignity with victory. For our martyrs the prize of heaven and for you the prize of honour which satisfies God and which will be recorded by history. The lesson you teach the enemy will make them think twice, and even be incapable, of attacking you, your nation and humanity again.

Hit them so that good and its people may reign and evil evicted back to its place. Mothers, daughters, fathers and sons, together with all the faithful and good, will sleep in comfort after being terrified by aggression. Your struggle will dishearten the aggressor. Oh Arabs, oh faithful of the world, oh those who support justice and oppose evil, we herald the victory that God has promised us in the conflict against the lowlifes and enemies of humanity."

by doing things just so. Sun Dec 14, 2003 21:33

may now properly be called to account.

@ least one fishy on our little dishy

by quotation of a movement Sun Dec 14, 2003 21:34

neither Bush
nor Saddam.

We demand the head of Saddam
in our courts.
We are mind the civilised nations of earth.

by arrogant paddy me iosaf ipsiphi o as if Sun Dec 14, 2003 22:01

I see very few cards left for this re-election.

OK so now Saddam is declared.

We ought now move to Monday morning.

the financial world is smiling.
Americans feel happy and safe in their homes for the Holiday Season, we Europeans of course don't give a shit, but by now most have realised that _they are very different_.
Aren't they Just.
http://www.uuiraq.org/
some day, the Iraqi people will go on the dole just like the rest of us.

by Danny Sun Dec 14, 2003 22:35

Victor Bout

Look him up on Google.

by lkj - sdf Mon Dec 15, 2003 02:19 sdf sdf

the right wing are starting to talk with us.

they come to this site. they are starting to realise we are here.

good.

they are starting to see that there are other worlds possible, not just worlds of war and greed, the world of unevolved animals.

by our questions, we are starting to make those new worlds possible.

love.

by editor Mon Dec 15, 2003 02:28

Given the pandering of the SWP to Arab nationalism and islamic fundamentalism. In Britain they are planning and electoral alliance with reactionary Mullahs and islamic organisations without raising one critisism of their more backward ideas.

what do people reckon will be the headline of the next 'Socialist Worker'?

'FREE THE TIKRIT 1'

or

'RELEASE SADDAM - PRINCIPLED FIGHTER OF US IMPERIALISM'

by Barney Mon Dec 15, 2003 02:47

I haven't seen any rightwing comments. It's just you potheads are so far left that anything sane and reasonable appears fascisitic to you.

Were just ordinary moderate people who come here to laugh at the freaks.

by Barney Mon Dec 15, 2003 02:47

I haven't seen any rightwing comments. It's just you potheads are so far left that anything sane and reasonable appears fascisitic to you.

Were just ordinary moderate people who come here to laugh at the freaks.

by Glen Swizer Mon Dec 15, 2003 09:40

There were a series of criticisms of the IAWM but they got 'lost' in a 'reorganisation'. The reality is the IAWM don't take criticism very well.

by cyclonus Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:40

Now that the sideshow for saddam has ended, and with no distractions will the american public remember that it was osama they were after in the first place. Surely it would have been cheaper for the bush dynasty to lure either villain to a reunion celebrating the good old days when they were all mates.

by Canteen Kevin Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:47

You rightwing asswipe- come here to "laugh at the freaks" yeah?, well try and post your ignorant drivel just ONCE in future eh?

by Eoin Dubsky Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:58

What's the bets Bertie will turn around now and say that he was mis-quoted by the press: He's (once again) a cheerleader for America's conquests in the Middle East. Germany and France are using the news of Saddam's capture to move closer to America ("Oh boy are we glad that you cought that (former asset) asshole!"). "Dead against the war" will shortly become "Oh what a wonderful war" again. Nothing would surprise me.

by curious Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:00

YES/No

would the world be a better place if saddam was still in power?

Yes/No

by Corkie Mon Dec 15, 2003 13:03

The handshake Donald Rumsfeld would prefer the world to forget.
While this isn't strictly a news report. I think it's worth reminding people about this The photo came from the US National Security Archive and the article from the Washington Post (27/2/03).
Iraq: Declassified Documents of U.S. Support for Hussein
With Joyce Battle
Middle East Analyst, National Security Archive at George Washington University
Thursday, Feb. 27, 2003; 11 a.m. ET

The National Security Archive at George Washington University has published a series of declassified U.S. documents detailing the U.S. embrace of Saddam Hussein in the early 1980’s. The collection of documents, published on the Web, include briefing materials, diplomatic reports of two Rumsfeld trips to Baghdad, reports on Iraqi chemical weapons use during the Reagan administration and presidential directives that ensure U.S. access to the region's oil and military expansion.

Join Joyce Battle, Middle East analyst at the National Security Archive at George Washington University, online Thursday, Feb. 27 at 11 a.m. ET to discuss the series of declassified U.S. documents detailing U.S. support of Saddam Hussein in the early 1980’s.


The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




washingtonpost.com: washingtonpost.com: Hi Joyce. Welcome. Before we could begin maybe you could give our readers a little background about Donald Rumsfeld's visits to Iraq in 1983 and 1984. What was he doing and why is this information relevant today?



Joyce Battle: Hello. I'm very pleased to have this opportunity to discuss some of the historical background to the U.S.'s present policy toward Iraq.

Donald Rumsfeld was sent to the Middle East as a special envoy for President Reagan in December 1983 and March 1984. At the time, he was a private citizen, but had been a high-ranking official with several Republican administrations. He had a number of items on his agenda, including conflict in Lebanon. However, one of his main objectives was to establish direct contact between President Reagan and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein -- he carried a letter from Reagan to Saddam to further this process.

His trip, and other overtures by the U.S., were necessary because the Reagan administration had decided to assist Iraq in its war against Iran in order to prevent an Iranian victory, which the administration saw as contrary to U.S. interests. But until the early 1980s, U.S.-Iraqi relations had been frosty -- Iraq broke off formal diplomatic relations in 1967. So in order to enable the U.S. to set up the mechanisms needed to provide Iraq with various forms of assistance, contacts had to be established, Iraq had to be removed from the State Department's list of countries supporting terrorism, and diplomatic relations needed to be re-established (which occurred in November 1984.)



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Derwood, Md.: Who cares what these documents say? Iraq is the enemy of the day and needs to be dealt with.

Joyce Battle: I respectfully disagree with your point of view. In a democracy, citizens are expected to be informed about decisions that affect their own lives and that of their neighbors. If the U.S. goes to war with Iraq, many people will be put in harm's way, and I think that we all should seek some understanding of earlier developments and policies that led us to the current situation.



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Wheaton, Md.: I hear pro-Saddam activists often claim that Reagan supplied Hussein with chemical weapons. I've seen no evidence to support these claims. Is there any truth to this?

Joyce Battle: I have not personally seen documents that indicate that the Reagan administration supplied Iraq with chemical weapons. However, the documents we recently posted on the Internet demonstrate that the administration had U.S. intelligence reports indicating that Iraq was using chemical weapons, both against Iran and against Iraqi Kurdish insurgents, in the early 1980s, at the same time that it decided to support Iraq in the war. So U.S. awareness of Iraq's chemical warfare did not deter it from initiating the policy of providing intelligence and military assistance to Iraq. There were shipments of chemical weapons precursors from several U.S. companies to Iraq during the 1980s, but the U.S. government would deny that it was aware that these exports were intended to be used in the production of chemical weapons.



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Chicago, Ill.: Greetings,
This might be slightly off point but I'll submit it for discussion.

The current administration has made a point of keeping all information that it can close to the vest. Not just secret information (which is understandable), but also material this is simply unflattering.

Examples: Energy documents from Cheney's summits; instructing DoJ to find reasons to reject even the most legit FOIA requests

Does a pattern of Secretizing Everything result in greater public skepticism when the administration pulls the "Trust Me" card in its discussions of the potential war in Iraq?

Joyce Battle: I agree with you. Strangely, one of the earliest responses of the current Bush administration to the events of September 11 was to begin efforts to vastly augment the ability of the government to limit the availability of information about its activities to the public. In particular, it attempted to impede the release of documents from the Reagan and Bush administrations, which were to be declassified under existing guidelines for making historical documents available. I considered this suspicious, since at that time questions were being raised as to the extent to which U.S. support for Islamist militants, in Afghanistan and elsewhere, had helped in creating the infrastructure used by al-Qaeda. I believe that government efforts to control and/or conceal information contribute not only to skepticism but to paranoia on the part of those who see contradictions between government rhetoric and policy.



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Maryland: The Sun in London recently published a photo of Chirac shaking hands with Saddam in 1984. Do the archives have any photos of current US officials shaking hands with Saddam?

Joyce Battle: Our website displays an image of current Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam during this 1983 visit. You can also view a short video (silent) clip of Rumsfeld's meeting with Saddam. To locate our website, just use a search engine to find "national security archive."



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Arlington, Va.: Ms. Battle,
Do the declassified documents you've seen reveal much detail of the U.S. policy toward Iran, and the extent to which Saudi influence and an Arabist-heavy State Dept. caused us to take sides in a Sunni-Shiite, Arab-Persian conflict? It seems that our willingness to accept Saudi influence with regard to two policy areas during the 80s (supporting Afghan resistance against the Russians, supporting Saddam against Iran) has caused enormous "blowback" today.

Joyce Battle: Based on the documents I have seen, I don't believe that Saudi Arabia was the tail that wagged the American dog. The U.S. and Saudi Arabia have had mutually supportive relations for some 70 years, and particularly since World War II. For decades, the U.S. believed that it was in its interest to support Saudi Arabia and other conservative Gulf monarchies. Despite their differences with the U.S. over issues like the Arab-Israeli dispute, these monarchies have on the whole been very supportive of U.S. political and economic interests. The U.S. was as fearful of the possible consequences of the expansion of revolutionary ideas from Iran as the Saudis were.

The U.S., for many years, held the view that promoting Islamist beliefs would effectively counter the spread of communist ideology in the Middle East, South Asia, and Africa, and was not at all opposed to Saudi support for conservative Islamist movements. In return, the U.S. presence in various military facilities in Saudi Arabia is widely viewed as the ultimate guarantor of the Saudi royal family's continuing rule. Again, these two countries' policies have always been based on mutual self-interest.



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Cumberland, Md.: Do you believe that the US should have stayed neutral in the Iran-Iraq war thereby allowing Iran and the Ayatollahs to win thereby enlarging their influence in the region?

Joyce Battle: It is obviously very difficult to second-guess history, and I won't attempt to do so. I believe that when the U.S. became aware of Iraq's chemical weapons use it should have used what influence it had to stop it. Doing so was actually incumbent upon the U.S. under international law. I believe the U.S. should have used its international influence, which is enormous, to do everything it could to end this war. It was an atrocity, resulting in hundreds of thousands of casualties. Too many countries had ulterior motives and did not do enough to cut off arms shipments to the two combattants. I think that U.S. support for Iraq, despite its public condemnation of chemical warfare, encouraged Saddam Hussein to believe that the U.S. did not really believe, or act on, its public posture.



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Ocean Pines, Md.: We often hear that Saddam Hussein gassed his own people in 1988. It is reported by Stephen Pelletiere that most of the civilians killed at that time were killed by Iranian poison gas. Do you know anything about this?

Joyce Battle: I have seen one analysis that makes this claim. Most of the government documents I have seen from this time period (1987-1989) indicate that the U.S. believed that Iraq had used chemical weapons against the Kurds. This was part of a series of measures undertaken by Iraq to punish Kurdish insurgents for allying with Iran during the war.



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Alexandria, Va.: Are you arguing that the policies of the early 80's were correct? Or that they were mistaken? Or just that we need to know? Personally, while I would wish that the policies of the early 80's had turned out differently, the goal appears to have been to establish a working relationship with Iraq. That goal obviously was not reached, and Saddam took the wrong message, that we were not bothered by his use of chemical weapons.

Times change; it could be argued that the current Bush administration is being more realistic than were the Reagan and Bush 1 administrations.

Joyce Battle: Mostly, I think that we need to know. We try to make documents available to the public to help them reach their own conclusions. Before making the decision as to whether they support or oppose war with Iraq, people should learn as much as they can about the issues and about the history of our relations with that country. The Bush administration, in attempting to persuade the public to support the war, presents an overly simplistic case. The problems of the Middle East are enormously complex. The Reagan administration's policies toward the Iran-Iraq war show that international relations are conducted not in black-and-white but in shades of gray.



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Joyce Battle: It's time for me to go -- thank you all very much for your questions and for your interest in this very important topic

Donald Rumsfeld shakes hands with Saddam Hussein (1983)

by %-) - workers soldarity! Mon Dec 15, 2003 13:19

:-)

by JMcK Mon Dec 15, 2003 13:52

Don't forget the Iraqi army and Saddam dined on Irish beef throughout the worst days of his regime.

by Tim Mon Dec 15, 2003 14:15

Bush said that Saddam will get the justice denied to others.
It's also vital to remember that he also got the mercy not shown to others.

When they went after some of the lower down henchmen they used ridiculous amounts of force, often killing innocent bystanders.
The invasion of Iraq killed tens of thousands.
And yet 600 troops just walk up and say "howdy" to Saddam.

I'm not saying they should have killed him. I am glad he's gonna have to face up to what he did.
How can they justify the number of people they killed? Not WMD, not invading Kuwait.
And not arresting scumbag Saddam.

Bush likes to act like the "World's policeman"

What type of arrest results in killing tens of thosands of bystanders and taking the criminal without a fight?

Hopefully Saddam will have an open trial either international tribunal or by the Iraqi people.

I look forward to seeing him answer for his crimes but we should make sure to insist that the scope of the trial is not limited.
We should put the bastards that armed Saddam in the dock with him -Bush Snr
and then try the bastards who helped to starve bomb and strangle Iraq.
Bush Jnr, Blair, Rumsfeld, Condaleeza Rice, Wolfowitz, Bertie and the others.

The pro-war crowd will ignore or dismiss the death and destruction and concentrate on this ONE MAN -the WAR ON SADDAM.
Again trying to personalize the war and make the Iraqi people into 'non-entities'.
All we'll hear is that most of the folk on the 'pack of cards' are now arrested.
This will be the sole criteria they will want to use.
Not civilian deaths, not unrest, not damage to society and infrastructure.

There have been thousands of innocent victims we don't know the exact figure, but the number of innocent leaders is known ZERO.

It will be a great shame if Saddam is the only leader brought to account for killing innocent people.

by Stephen Mon Dec 15, 2003 14:35

Slightly off the point here, but did the US not threaten al jazerra TV with violating the geneva convention when they paraded POWS on TV? and did they not also warn off any other TV stations from following suit? and have they now not done just that by placing images of Saddam on TV all over the world. (they recorded and distributed the images)

"U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the captured former Iraqi leader will be protected under the Geneva Convention, the international agreement that prohibits mistreatment of prisoners of war."

Is this not a blatant case of double standards, or have we become so used to American administration double talk that we just let it pass??

by Terry Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:00

Greg Palast (author of The Best Democracy Money can Buy) reminds us all of the role and duties Saddam has performed over the years.

See article in related link

by Mark Humphrys Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:15

Links re: Saddam's capture
Commiserations to all you Saddam-loving creeps at Indymedia.

This is a black day for you.
Your hero Saddam is no more.
Good job America!

I just sent a message to the brave US troops to congratulate them:
http://www.defendamerica.mil/

You defend dictators.
America deposes them.
Think about that tonight.

Merry Christmas

Mark Humphrys
http://humphrys.humanists.net/iraq.html

"Think of every moment when some poor soul believed he was about to die, every moment spent in hellish prisons, every person tortured beyond imagining, every child
dumped in a mass grave, every person of faith treated as an enemy of the state. To watch the perpetrator of this extraordinary evil brought low - into a rat-hole in the
ground - is a privilege. It happens rarely. It is a moment when some kind of cosmic justice breaks through the clouds, and all the petty wrangling and mistakes and political
jockeying fall away in the face of liberation from inescapable fear and terror and brutality. It was a day of joy. Nothing remains to be said right now. Joy."
- Andrew Sullivan on the capture of Saddam, Dec 2003.
http://andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2003_12_14_dish_archive.html#107148509986432354

by iosaf Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:23

We in the Sunday Papers would like to apologise to all pundits, armchair intellectuals, living room generals, regular contributors, commentators, "in the know heads", relatives or friends of the US adminstration in Iraq, spies and of course ordinary Iraqi people, but for circumstances beyond our control, the Saddam Propaganda Mass Media Manipulation Frenzy is now over.

We appreciate that many fine minds are possibly putting loads of disparate things together, like what went on in Tikrit in the last 14 days, who won the contracts, who didn't get awarded contracts, why Bertie did a U-turn, why O as if wrote God Bless Amerik@, why the Hussein era anti-labour organisation legislation was "loopholed" to allow prominent unknown Neutral State activists to guarantee synidaclised worker organisation rights in Iraq, why the Washington state archive is postively going into hyper drive to dump dirt and shit on Rumsfeld, why Condoolence Rice is so _so_ quiet.
And we like that, but hey, we can do nothing about it now, suffice to say, Geopolitics is a dodgy game, and you never know when the credit will run out, so always have something else better to do.

like sign this:
http://www.petitiononline.com/gaedhilg/petition.html

by David Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:24

But most anarchists don't tend to support dictators..
I love right wing lunatics... they're amusing.

by Eamon Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:31

Now we just need to arrest Bu$h for the crimes of murding and maiming innocents, including children..

by tsk tsk. Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:31

Dr. Mark Humphrys
BSc. Joint Hons (UCD), PhD (Cambridge)
Lecturer,
School of Computing,
Dublin City University,
Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland.
Tel: (+353 1) 700-8059
Fax: (+353 1) 700-5442
Email: humphrys@computing.dcu.ie
Web: computing.dcu.ie/~humphrys
Shortcut: go.to/humphrys

The World-Wide-Mind project: w2mind.org


You really ought to know that there is very little true value left in slagging off the lefties about Saddam.
Look at Bertie, _think_ about the little rascal.
He's keeping his mouth shut and so should you.

by gp - grevious angel Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:32

by Greg Palast



Former Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein was taken into custody yesterday at
8:30p.m. Baghdad time. Various television executives, White House spin doctors
and propaganda experts at the Pentagon are at this time wrestling with the
question of whether to claim PFC Jessica Lynch seized the ex-potentate or that
Saddam surrendered after close hand-to-hand combat with current Iraqi strongman
Paul Bremer III.

Ex-President Hussein himself told US military interrogators that he had surfaced
after hearing of the appointment of his long-time associate James Baker III to
settle Iraq's debts. "Hey, my homeboy Jim owes me big time," Mr. Hussein stated.
He asserted that Baker and the prior Bush regime, "owe me my back pay. After
all I did for these guys you'd think they'd have the decency to pay up."

The Iraqi dictator then went on to list the "hits" he conducted on behalf of the
Baker-Bush administrations, ending with the invasion of Kuwait in 1990,
authorized by the former US secretary of state Baker.

Mr. Hussein cited the transcript of his meeting on July 25, 1990 in Baghdad with
US Ambassador April Glaspie. When Saddam asked Glaspie if the US would object
to an attack on Kuwait over the small emirate's theft of Iraqi oil, America's
Ambassador told him, "We have no opinion.... Secretary [of State James] Baker
has directed me to emphasize the instruction ... that Kuwait is not associated
with America."

Glaspie, in Congressional testimony in 1991, did not deny the authenticity of
the recording of her meeting with Saddam which world diplomats took as US
acquiescence to an Iraqi invasion.

While having his hair styled by US military makeover artists, Saddam listed jobs
completed at the request of his allies in the Carter, Reagan and Bush
administrations for which he claims back wages:

1979: Seizes power with US approval; moves allegiance from Soviets to USA in
Cold War.

1980: Invades Iran, then the "Unicycle of Evil," with US encouragement and
arms.

1982: Reagan regime removes Saddam's regime from official US list of state
sponsors of terrorism.

1983: Saddam hosts Donald Rumsfeld in Baghdad. Agrees to "go steady" with US
corporate suppliers.

1984: US Commerce Department issues license for export of aflatoxin to Iraq
useable in biological weapons.

1988: Kurds in Halabja, Iraq, gassed.

1987-88: US warships destroy Iranian oil platforms in Gulf and break Iranian
blockade of Iraq shipping lanes, tipping war advantage back to Saddam.

In Baghdad today, the US-installed replacement for Saddam, Paul Bremer, appeared
to acknowledge his predecessor Saddam's prior work for the US State Department
when he told Iraqis, "For decades, you suffered at the hands of this cruel man.
For decades, Saddam Hussein divided you and threatened an attack on your
neighbors."

In reaction to the Bremer speech, Mr. Hussein said, "Do you think those decades
of causing suffering, division and fear come cheap?" Noting that for half of
that period, the suffering, division and threats were supported by Washington,
Saddam added, "So where's the thanks? You'd think I'd at least get a gold watch
or something for all those years on US payroll."

In a televised address from the Oval Office, George W. Bush raised Saddam's
hopes of compensation when he cited Iraq's "dark and painful history" under the
US-sponsored Hussein dictatorship.

Saddam was also heartened by Mr. Bush's promise that, "The capture of Saddam
Hussein does not mean the end of violence in Iraq." With new attacks by and on
US and other foreign occupation forces, the former strongman stated, "It's
reassuring to know my legacy of darkness and pain for Iraqis will continue under
the leadership of President Bush."

While lauding the capture of Mr. Hussein, experts caution that the War on Terror
is far from over, noting that Osama bin Laden, James Baker and George W. Bush
remain at large.

by ec Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:36

go here

http://www.ecn.org/irc/ #indymedia

by Eddie Bernays - Proper Gander PR Mon Dec 15, 2003 16:53 eddiebernays at hotmail dot com

Tom Humphrys sounds like a nob. What're his BSc & PhD in? Obviously not history or politics or he would know that the 'sceptics' are the greatest supporters, and installers, of dictators the world has ever had the misfortune to see.

Guatamala, Chile, El Salvador, Iraq, Iran...when should I stop?

by mise Mon Dec 15, 2003 17:23

Mark you are an idiot most on indymedia would have utterly opposed all dictators western and eastern and supported the fact that Saddam is not at large anymore. The point is though we don't support dictatorships -NONE of them. however in your rant its seems you support one recently installed in Iraq - An army invades sells off all assets so its mates make millions rules with an iron fist, has a stong cult of personality in bush, mass proaganda machine which ignores fact , Bullies other nations, Stongly nationalistic wow it sounds like a dictatorship to me but no its the land of the free -America - you are an idiot wake up

by Canteen Kevin Mon Dec 15, 2003 17:50

...idiotic gloating articles over the capture of Saddam are you going to allow these right-wing throwbacks to post. They are all clinging to the hope that we are the tiniest bit pissed off over that murderers capture.

The communist party in Iraq were among the first to publicly celebrate his capture, wheres Bin Laden?, the resistance to Amerikas revenge wars will continue unabated.

So have your preceived day of victory you pathetic, arse-kissing cretin but stop peddling lies that anybody on the left gives a shit about Hussein.

by random input Mon Dec 15, 2003 17:51

Avi wrote: "Not enough in this pathetic, whining statement about this man's personal responsibililty for his truly evil deeds."

So personal responsiblity is it? Now I remember another man's personal responsibilty for massacres that you said didn't matter, and that man was Ariel Sharon.

Lock up Saddam and Sharon.

by reminding you all that the window of propaganda is shut Mon Dec 15, 2003 18:15

You are today's prize right winger.
And to think you began by being a humanist.
Oh well you'll get that, street recognition and disgust in equal degree.

So taking your lead I thought to add some more little titbits for all the armchair commentators and indeed some seasoned Levant specialists to ponder.

Executive Order 13303?

I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, find that
the threat of attachment or other judicial process against the Development
Fund for Iraq, Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein,
and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatso-ever
arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests
therein, obstructs the orderly reconstruction of Iraq, the restoration and
maintenance of peace and security in the country, and the development
of political, administrative, and economic institutions in Iraq. This situation
constitutes an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security
and foreign policy of the United States and I hereby declare a national
emergency to deal with that threat.
I hereby order:
Section 1. Unless licensed or otherwise authorized pursuant to this order,
any attachment, judgment, decree, lien, execution, garnishment, or other
judicial process is prohibited, and shall be deemed null and void, with
respect to the following:
(a) the Development Fund for Iraq, and
(b) all Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein,
and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatso-ever
arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests
therein, in which any foreign country or a national thereof has any interest,
that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States,
or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United
States persons.

It goes on...............
(ask Bertie he's your local contact)

Saddam lasted less than six official months in the "resistance" phase of his career which had spanned many many years of collusion and enemity with the West, principally figuring the Bush Dynasty and close retainers. During which time lots happened which didn't spin as well as had been hoped. But now this "good news" will be seeping out of a politician near you:

Let us have a look at the cheer list:

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...nearly all of Iraq’s 400 courts are functioning.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts—exceeding the pre-war average.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions, by October 1, Coalition forces had rehabbed over 1,500 schools - 500 more than their target.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq’s children.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals. They now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...we have restored over three-quarters of pre-war telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions... Iraq (has) a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...satellite dishes are legal.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions... there is no Ministry of Information.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...there are more than 170 newspapers.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions... foreign journalists and everyone else are free to come and go.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...a nation that had not one single element—legislative, judicial or executive-- of a representative government, does.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

Since the UN declared an end to sanctions...the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of (a) strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

wow eh?
yes you'll see that lots now, and it's source is

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/transcripts/20031009_Oct-09Bremerpresscon.htm

Hmmm :-

how to change "US" into "UN".
I'm piddlingh myself laughing coz it's going to be a lot harder to change "US" into "UN" than it is to change pacifist anti War movement into pro-Saddam apologists. & do you know why Dr Humphrys and pals? Well it's sort of simple and oft forgotten,... (we are the UN).

by Sunday Papers Mon Dec 15, 2003 18:30

http://humphrys.humanists.net/iraq.html
we have quite a list.

by Cheka Mon Dec 15, 2003 18:39

The Communist Party are hardly leftwing. They are a bunch of unreconstructed Stalinists. They would outdo Saddam if they ever got into power. They are happy playing footsie with the Shiite clerics right now.

by the cowardly lion Mon Dec 15, 2003 18:48

Well I don't know about youse ... but I'm still afraid to go down O'Connell Street alone during the hours of darkness ......

I wonder if we'll ever see peace in our time .....

by wizard of Oz Mon Dec 15, 2003 19:43

Maybe some day, if Erin and Eire become really really Yanquii USA, then you will have the right to bear arms, and blow anyone who menaces you to sky high.
I know I'd feel different walking through night time BÇN toting a fully automatic with night sight goggles.
And where would the unalienable right to bear Arms, leave our Peace Process?
Oh well, Sir you do have an unalienable right to bear Arms as long you live within commuting distance of non European descent neighbours, but you _don't_ have the unalienable to right to bear a Surface to Air missile especially if it's manufacturer is dis-allowed for bidding to Public Procurement Contracts in the New Model Republic of Iraq.

God Bless Amerik@!

(It is taking some effort, but having seen the tripartitie "leftie" alliance finally get into power down the road, I am aware that many of us naturally oppositional dingbats and moaners have now to re-think our Problem Sovling pitches).

God Bless Amerik@!
eh... god BLESS amerik@.
(you'll get the hang of it too).

by jeff Mon Dec 15, 2003 22:53

...your poetry is
crap
and so id=s the WaY you spell it and WrItE it

Waffler wqaffle gobbly de gook
can you
eVr write a sensibly worded comment

or wil you reMain forvever the altrn8
version
of
what
donald rumsfeld might sound like
On Crack

The rest of you are pathetic.Instead of accepting the fact that Mark Humphrys has different views, a number of which I personally do not accept, you put his face up on screen and write about him in a style akin to a heated verbal onslaught from that goblin yoke from Lord of the Rings.

They do shit like that on http://www.redwatch.co.uk

Thats the website combat 18 set up to target and intimidate leftist and "marxist traitors".

by iosaf Mon Dec 15, 2003 22:59

Did he not deserve the cybernetic slap in the face?

by iosaf Mon Dec 15, 2003 23:03

& as is customary the comments will be deleted.
bzzzzt.
Sorry Dr H.

by Pierce Morgan Tue Dec 16, 2003 03:08

I told them everyone in Ireland is grateful for what they're doing to defeat terrorism.

Go on, send them a message, they're keeping you safe.

by Deroy Murdock - Atlas Economic Research Foundation,Fairfax, Virginia. Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:14

As U.S. intelligence officers interrogate Saddam Hussein
, they should ask the freshly nabbed ex-dictator about an article in yesterday's London Sunday Telegraph. Coinciding with Operation Red Dawn, the respected British paper published a dispatch by correspondent Con Coughlin titled: "Does this link Saddam to 9/11?"
Coughlin, who has reported from Baghdad and authored Saddam: The Secret Life, discusses a document discovered by Iraq's interim government detailing a summer 2001 meeting in the Iraqi capitol between September 11 ringleader Mohammed Atta and notorious Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal.

The handwritten communiqué, according to Coughlin, was penned by Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, former chief of the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS). He is the Jack of Diamonds among Hussein's top henchmen and remains at large. Habbush's July 1, 2001, memo is labeled "Intelligence Items" and is addressed: "To the President of the Ba'ath Revolution Party and President of the Republic, may God protect you."

It continues:

Mohammed Atta, an Egyptian national, came with Abu Ammer [the real name behind this Arabic alias remains a mystery] and we hosted him in Abu Nidal's house at al-Dora under our direct supervision."
We arranged a work program for him for three days with a team dedicated to working with him...He displayed extraordinary effort and showed a firm commitment to lead the team which will be responsible for attacking the targets that we have agreed to destroy.


While these objectives are unidentified, Atta slammed American Airlines Flight 11 into One World Trade Center on September 11, signaling the first of four deadly, coordinated attacks with hijacked jets that horrid morning. The notion that an al Qaeda operative and Saddam Hussein's spy agency "agreed to destroy" the Twin Towers is bolstered by previous ties between Iraq and the February 26, 1993, WTC bombing. Recall that the mastermind of that operation was Iraqi Ramzi Yousef who traveled before the assault to America on an Iraqi passport.

Also, Indiana-born, Iraqi-reared terrorist Abdul Rahman Yasin was indicted for mixing the chemicals in the bomb that exploded beneath One World Trade Center, killing six and injuring some 1,000 New Yorkers. Indicted by U.S. prosecutors in August 1993 as a conspirator in that plot, Yasin is on the FBI's Most-Wanted Terrorists list. ABC News confirmed on July 27, 1994, that Yasin had returned to Baghdad, where he traveled freely and visited his father's home almost daily. Richard Miniter reported September 25 on TechCentralStation: "U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, which shows Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and a monthly salary."

Abu Nidal's appearance in this memo is intriguing. The perpetrator of attacks that killed at least 275 people and injured some 625 others moved to Baghdad in 1999 where he lived under Hussein's protection. But on August 16, 2002, Nidal committed suicide, Baathist officials claimed. What they could not explain, however, is how Nidal killed himself with four bullets to the head.

Did Saddam Hussein, fearing an impending U.S. invasion, eliminate Nidal as Mohammed Atta's former tutor? Remember: Hussein's Salman Pak terrorist training camp 15 miles from Baghdad housed an airline fuselage in which Islamic extremists reportedly learned to commandeer jets with in-flight cutlery.

As for that memo, a leading member of Iraq's governing council told Coughlin: "There are people who are working with us who used to work with Habbush who are convinced that it is his handwriting and signature. We are uncovering evidence all the time of Saddam's dealings with al-Qaeda, and this document shows the extent of the old regime's involvement with the international terrorist network."

Now that Saddam Hussein has slept in something other than a dirt-lined hole, American investigators should ask him what he knows about Habbush's memo and when he knew it.

by Canteen Kevin Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:20

Like "Barney" above, you seem to be unable to handle the concept of posting the same item just the once. It is bad enough to want to display your sycophancy in public at all without doing it twice , then again, you probably are are twice as pathetic as the usual Amerik@n propaganda spewing dickhead . "Go on, send them a message, they're keeping you safe." --- You really are a dickhead.

Oh and Cheka, nice try ,but the WCPI have called for attacks on mosques in revenge for attacks on secular premises (cinemas, offies etc.) so they're hardly hand-in-hand with the Shia.

by Sean-Colin - Student Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:24 SnCln at Hotmail dot COM USA

"D1ckhead..., sycophancy"...where did all that come from? it was probably an errored out post that timed out and he resent. Shoot him down why don't you? Children be nice! If you cannot play nice then do not play at all!

Sean-Colin D

by Canteen Kevin Tue Dec 16, 2003 14:56

I referred to "Pierce Morgan" as a d1ckhead (as you put it) for the obvious reason, the idiocy of his sychophantic double posting i.e "everyone in Ireland is grateful" "they're keeping you safe". Apologies to any innocent readers of a more delicate disposition for use of such "strong" language.OK Big Brother?

PS "it was probably an errored out post that timed out and he resent." - I always find that thinking a little bit before lashing out on the keyboard is very useful.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Tue Dec 16, 2003 15:55

70% unempl;oyment but hey we got Saddam

Heres what the "defenders of freedom" have been up to on your behalf - do send them a message express your self tell them what you really think of em !

(article lifted from)

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=0ea74f4207000f2a20cd2bdf4ab0e2a9


U.S. Arrests Iraqi Union Leaders
News Feature, David Bacon,
Pacific News Service, Dec 10, 2003

Editor's Note: There's another kind of battle being waged in Iraq -- the struggle for worker's rights. Iraqi union organizers say the U.S. authority is working against them.

SAN FRANCISCO--U.S. occupation forces in Iraq escalated their efforts to paralyze Iraq's new labor unions with a series of arrests this weekend.

On Dec. 6, according to a union spokesperson interviewed by phone, a convoy of 10 Humvees and personnel carriers descended on the old headquarters building of the Transport and Communications Workers union, in Baghdad's central bus station, which has been used since June as the office of the Iraqi Workers Federation of Trade Unions (IFTU). Twenty soldiers jumped out, stormed into the building, put handcuffs on eight members of the Federation's executive board, and took them into detention.

"They gave no reason at all, despite being asked over and over," says IFTU spokesperson Abdullah Muhsin. Soldiers painted over the name of the federation on the front of the building with black paint, Muhsin says. The union had few resources, "but we did have a few files, and they took those," Muhsin adds. Ironically, the office had posters on the walls condemning terrorism, which soldiers tore down in the raid.

Although the eight were released the following day, there was no explanation from the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), the U.S. occupation government in Iraq, for the detentions.

The bus station raid followed the detention of two other trade union leaders on November 23 -- Qasim Hadi, general secretary of the Union of the Unemployed, and Adil Salih, another leader of the organization. Hadi had been arrested twice before by occupation troops, for leading demonstrations of unemployed workers demanding unemployment benefits and jobs. In the November raid, CPA troops said they found two guns in the union's office, which was only permitted to have one. Hadi explained at the time that the organization has been the subject of threats and fatwahs by Iraqi religious parties, and needed weapons for self-defense.

Hadi and Salih were released after being detained for a day.

Both the Union of the Unemployed and the IFTU have been organizing Iraqi workers for months. The IFTU held a convention in Baghdad in June, at which it established unions in 12 industries. The Unemployed Union belongs to the Workers Unions and Councils group, which also has been organizing since last summer.

As many as 7 million people, or 70 percent of the workforce, have no jobs, according to the Unemployed Union. Some go hungry and sometimes become homeless. Although Congress appropriated $87 billion for reconstruction, Dr. Nuri Jafer, the deputy minister of Labor and Social Affairs says he can find "no country willing to fund our plans" for a minimal system of unemployment benefits.

Work may be proceeding on pipelines and ports for oil exports, but huge piles of war rubble lie untouched in Baghdad streets. U.S. funding in Iraq pays for an overwhelming military presence and the transformation of the Iraqi economy. Both are intended to make the country attractive to foreign investors.

In an Oct. 8 phone press conference, Thomas Foley, director for private sector development for the CPA, announced a list of the first Iraqi state enterprises to be sold, including cement and fertilizer plants, phosphate and sulfur mines, pharmaceutical factories and the country's airline. On Sept. 19, the CPA published Order No. 39, which permits 100 percent foreign ownership of businesses -- except for the oil industry -- and allows the transfer of profits outside the country.

Iraqi workers fear privatization will bring massive layoffs. "I'll have to fire 1,500 (of the refinery's 3,000) workers," says Dathar Al-Kashab, manager of the Al Daura oil refinery. "In America, when a company lays people off, there's unemployment insurance and they won't die from hunger. If I dismiss employees now, I'm killing them and their families."

At the refinery, as in most factories, those with jobs work 11- and 13-hour shifts. Al Daura workers earn $60 a month. They have no safety shoes, goggles, masks or other protective gear. The IFTU helped the refinery's workers organize a union and elect its leaders. In Basra, workers have formed a central labor council and mounted demonstrations. The Workers Unions and Councils group has helped workers elect committees in the State Leather Industry plant, the largest shoe factory in the Middle East, and the Mamoun Vegetable Oil enterprise, among others.

When these new unions try to talk with the plant managers, however, they're told that a 1987 law forbids workers in state-owned enterprises (where the majority of Iraqis work) from forming unions. The CPA still enforces this Saddam-era law. Another order issued by the CPA on June 6 threatens that anyone who "incites civil disorder" will be detained as a prisoner of war under the Geneva Convention.

While unions are being suppressed, international conferences in Washington and London take place every week, at which Iraqi assets are put on sale to private buyers. At one recent conference, ExxonMobil, Delta Airlines and the American Hospital Group all expressed interest in various Iraqi enterprises.

Workers fear new foreign owners will cut labor costs through layoffs. Resistance at the work site has been made illegal by laws banning unions and by the arrest of their leaders.

Muhsen Mull Ali, an IFTU leader who spent two long stints in prison for organizing unions, both before and during Saddam's reign, says U.S. actions against unions won't deter him. "Our responsibility is to oppose privatization as much as possible, and fight for the welfare of our workers."

PNS contributor David Bacon (dbacon@igc.org) is a photographer and writer specializing in labor issues. He visited Iraq in October.

by yeahright Tue Dec 16, 2003 18:47

Another attempt, later debunked to link Saddam Hussein to Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaeda.

Saddam has plenty to answer for.
Trying to link him to 9-11 is just a ploy to deflect attention from the link to the Reagan Administration.

by mockle Tue Dec 16, 2003 19:52

Since when did the Sunday Telegraph become a respected or respectable newspaper? Anybody remember some of the crap they wrote about Ireland?

by sweet jesus Tue Dec 16, 2003 20:56

anyone else have a sinking feeling that this whole thing is fabricated?
a while ago they said he was dead. this could just be another impostor, fair enough they said they have his DNA but they can pull "reports" like that out of their holes any day.
everyone was surprised that he gave up so easily, even though he had a pistol and 2 AK47s in the bunker with him. do ya not think he would have tried to kill himself rather than be captured by his old mate bushy?
and why did he only have 750grand in the hole with him? i thought he was a bi-jillionaire?
and isn't it coincidental that the televised hanging that the iraqis want will go down just before the next US presidential elections, when bush reruns with a sense "acomplishment"?

call me paranoid but i wouldnt put it past them and i think its all a load of bollocks.

oh yeah, and if bush wins again - and dear god lets hope not - he's gonna be fucking 100 times worse with his warmongering, and greed, and killing of innocents

by Bernard Dunleavy Tue Dec 16, 2003 22:18

It seems to me that the extreme Left is bitterly disappointed at the sucess of the American intervention in Iraq.

So disappointed in fact that they're willing to deny the reality on their TV screens.

I for one always know that invading Iraq was the right thing to do and seeing pictures of weeping Iraqi journalists is all the justification I need.

Merry Christmas everybody, we're all a lot safer than this time last year.

by sweet jesus Tue Dec 16, 2003 23:15

your tv screen does not always display reality hence the need for for such site as...oh...ah.. .INDYMEDIA!!?? ...fuckwit
ps your a fucking monster

by Tacitus Wed Dec 17, 2003 03:11

Photographic evidence of Saddam moving effortlessly around Iraq under the noses of the ignorant American grunts.

by inextricably linked Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:25

thankyou corkie for the picture, people have such short memories, esp when the media tell them to move on and believe the opposite of what they were told yesterday, and all you sheep celebrating do just that!
yes saddam was bad news but who put him there? the same people that took him out. The arab world is rightfully distrustful of our western democracy, Bush was not democratically elected, here in the north of Ireland we had our elections postponed and many voters disenfranchised, democracy must seem to arabs as a big immoral lie, the pretence of equality. they have an ancient culture get yourselves informed and do not send the troops a big thanks on behalf of the irish people when you only represent yourself. If I was an iraqi I'd be hoping to send them troops home in a box! and like it or not you proud white lovers of democracy, american style, according to your own beliefs that is as valid a view as your own!

by Tacitus Thu Dec 18, 2003 04:06

You're one mixed up little kid, aren't you? I'd rather American style democracry than the kind of shitty existence most Arabs have to deal with.

Now, America has released one Arab country from bondage and the rest of the region is on warning that they'd better celan up thier act.

Ancient culture, yes. Too bad they never evolved along European lines. It's a mediaeval nightmare in those countries, and in Pakistan.

by Mark Humphrys Fri Dec 19, 2003 09:05

> & as is customary the comments will be deleted.
> bzzzzt.
> Sorry Dr H.

I never saw what you did since I've only just
discovered this thread.
I posted somewhere else.

Anyway, you're very brave "iosaf"
and "tsk tsk", you anonymous cowards.
Who are you?
There's no secret about who I am.
I have the courage to sign my name to my opinions.
Why don't you?

Anyway, I'd love to stay and chat,
but as one of the more sane posters above said, this is just a time
when people like me drop in to laugh at the freakshow.
It is a glorious day,
the best day in the world since
that fantastic day the Berlin Wall came down.

This is the greatest moment of the century so far.

You anti-American nuts have lost again.
You lost the Cold War.
And you're losing this war.

You're missing the revolution guys.
There's a great revolution for democracy and human rights
under way in the Middle East, and you're so consumed by hatred
that you're missing it.

I'll leave you with some Iraqi bloggers.
They understand what tyranny and freedom mean.
You spoilt, pampered, safe, western rich people don't have a clue.

Talk to you again when Iran falls.

All the best,

Mark Humphrys
http://humphrys.humanists.net/


The Mesopotamian
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/2003_12_01_messopotamian_archive.html#107141342956684452

Iraq The Model
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/archives/2003_12_01_iraqthemodel_archive.html#107141593711182868

p.s. People, he's talking about YOU. [ Editor's note (R Isible): huge cut and paste deleted. Please do not publish cut and pasted material when there is a publically available URI. Cut and pastes are deleted as a matter of policy. Thank you. ]

by iosaf Mac diarmada [yawn yawn] Fri Dec 19, 2003 17:54

how are you?
If you went to the same trouble as I did to find your site which I linked to by the way whilst finding your photograph, you would find:
My photograph.
My title.
My address.
My phone number.
My details.
and then you or your chums could as implicitly was threatened, place those details on a fascist or right wing site of your choice, as indeed they have been put in the past.

An event which led to my animals being killed in London 2000. And I love to be reminded of it.

Meanwhile, the photo which you invite people to look at has been edited, together with all the other illustrations to this article, which yawn yawn *_I_* asked be removed.
And you Dr H. are exposed as a nasty little rightwinger who published your original post to insult and denigrate anti-War acitivists. Which I find unacceptable whatever Jefff may think, as for near a decade now I have seen such activists face persecution and serious threats from people just like you.

We did not support Saddam.
Now or then.
We opposed the War.
The long years when every thursday a few people would stand on Whitehall opposite Downing Street calling for Saddam to face international justice are not forgotten, and now Dr H. can you guarantee that he will?

do you read arabic? or do you content yourself with only reading American soldier's letters home?

Nor or any of us in the "Anti-War family" so "gratified" to accept capitalist and imperialist propaganda which is _not_ in the interest of either "our way of life" or our nation's or continent's future.

Meanwhile, it would be most edifying if y
ou used your not un-noted IT abilities to promote such things as open source software and sustainable development.
What exactly do you use your skill for mark?
Or will you not enter a debate on that?

Meanwhile send me an Xmas card- why not?

And this site was set up with the full knowledge and acquescience of both NATO and the Iraqi people and has been in operation since the end of the War and has seen the Iraqi people adjust to their new situation as their friends have, as I have, as many have, except it appears "you" and "your kind" who still are happy to see it in terms of "Bush" versus "Sadam":
I'll lead you into gently:
http://www.almuajaha.com/newswire/display_any/35

With your immaturity Mark, you have dishonoured the activity of Irish nationals in Iraq to build a better future, one of which you appear to know nothing, so busy are you supporting the Republican Party. And that is truly sad. I hope you actually do "stay off line" but know that you are an unfortuanate part of the bigotry and trolling division that we must face on a regular basis.
Hopefully your server will pop and you'll be busy over holidays...

by iosaf Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:09

You may feel safe in your mock tuscan villa on the banks of the River Shannon this Christmas, but I and my friends in NYC, Barcelona, Paris, London, Jerusalem, Bagdad, South America, Berlin etc., do not feel in any way "safer".
An ex dictator has been arrested, without any proof that he was in any way controlling the post war resistance situation. It has now been five years since Saddam sent a medical team to "the base" in Afghanistan to save the life of Osama Ben Laden, which they did. The USA was attacked by Osama so it says, and since it destroyed "the base" and pursued it's members through the hills of the Tora Bora to the borders with Pakistan and China, less than 50% of the members of Al Qaeda or those thought to be in "the base" at the time are accounted for as "dead" or "incarcerated" on a small island off of Cuba.

Since then, there have been over twenty arrests of members of Al Qaeda in Europe.
None of which had any connection to Saddam Hussein. The members of Al Qaeda who were caught with incubation equipment for anthrax in the hills of Catalonia had no connection with Saddam. The members of Al Qeada arrested in London with incubation equipment for anthrax were not connected to Saddam. I have always doubted with very good reason that you Bernard have any notion of leftwing politics concerns or even live in the real world. Perhaps you could find a nive young lefty girlie to explain it all to you and spend another few years living down the rumours of being a nasty little american who plagiarised the finest minds of a generation of anglo-irish students.

you'll get that.

by iosaf Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:21

let us look at the problems facing any court.

law.
which one? the same international law that forbade Bush invading Iraq?
or the nasty kind that means medieval conditions for arabs?
the one that allowed Bush to execute more prisoners during his time as Governor or the nice liberal british one that doesn't like a concentration brain wash camp off the coast of Cuba?

witnesses?
which ones will get a say?
Now as we all know, the leader of the Israeli Mossad mission that bombed Saddam's nuclear weapons program will not be available to give evidence as he died aboard the Space Shuttle as it disintegrated on re-entry.
So will it be the Kuwaiti royal family?
Maybe the same ones who during the Clinton presidency were found to have commited perjury under the name "friends of Kuwait" when they gave evidence to the US Senate on Saddam's occupation of Kuwait?

Oh yes. Bernard and David my (our?) friends in Israel feel safe this Hannukah, oh yes they do. The ignorance and arrogance of those who would seek to offer opinion is disgusting.

You have always disgusted me.
But that was in "your territory", "your world", a world that has never shown itself capable of going beyond the TV soundbytes. Are really you so "pro-Bush"?

by iosaf Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:24

Most of our readers in "our world" will not have as prosperous or safe a christmas / hanukah / aïd as you could even imagine to be intolerable.

Disgust. disgust. disgust.

by iosaf Fri Dec 19, 2003 18:50

the sons and heirs of Saddam were expected by many of us observers of the Levant to present themselves in Bylerussia at a meeting in the end of April.
That meeting had been booked in November of 2002, and so interesting was the agenda that even Robert Fisk who certain contributors above probably think " a good bloke" concurred that Bylerussia was the "most likely exile bolt-hole".
Now if any witnesses are called as one would imagine to a properly conducted international war crimes trial, then we will see many interesting curiousities that ought make us all feel " very scared" will come on to the public table.
Including that "pressure" being placed on Iran and Israel. Which is the thing so many people don't get. The US/K action in Iraq can not be justified simply because Saddam is in a torture cell being shown pictures of his crimes. No it can only begin to be justified if the Levant improves in terms of human rights, civil rights, and a lasting and just peace is established betyween Israel and her neighbours and Suni And Sh'ite Islam.
When Iraq becomes a "post-war germany"
I remember was how the cliché ran. And hardly any contributor here can even begin to speak sense on these things.

Now if I saw fit to link to the Bremmer "list of goodies", it means I was interested in those goodies, If I saw fit to link to the Workers Solidarity efforts in IRaq, it means I am interested, if I saw fit to contribute to Al Muajaha from the beginning it is a sign that I am interested.
I would appreciate if others were.

Iwould really like if it people in Ireland of both Left and Right realised that Iraq is now not "saddam's Iraq" nor has it been for many months. That Iraq is a country whose future shall touch us all. And not just in the terms of how much Oil may cost.

Shona Nollaig Dhoibh!
Happy Christmas!
Shalom a Hanukah!
Saleem Aïd!
Feliz Navidades!
Felices Nadal!

{writers are supposed to bicker and gutter snipe and keep to their area of expertise}

by Bernard Dunleavy Fri Dec 19, 2003 21:26

No amount of sophistry will get you out of it. If you and your ilk had got your way, Saddam and his henchmen would still be torturing and murdering today.

You "useful idiots" were his greatest allies.

by iosaf - (who has been less than friendly) Sat Dec 20, 2003 15:58

Sorry for the gutter sniping, but @ least the willfully disrepectful confusion of you with your uncle has served fit to finally read the lines:

....."If you and your ilk had got your way, Saddam and his henchmen would still be torturing and murdering today.

You "useful idiots" were his greatest allies".....

sophistry........

& I my Lord might I say nothing.

Today the Iraqi people still count amongst their friends and allies those acitivists of feminist, democratic, syndicalist, ecological and pacifist movements throughout Europe and Northern America, Africa, Southern America, Asia and Oceania.
Not for the first time we stand facing accusations of being little more than "useful idiots". Because we did not support the military intervention which undoubtedly has changed our world. But there you go, Bertie Ahern apparantly agrees with us as did the majority of citizens in the majority of democratic states in the world.

happy christmas.
and don't forget that this article is now a composite of many different posts amongst which was included an issue of "the Sunday Papers", these different articles with their different threads and comments are now presented as one continuous text. And this is regretable as it has confused replies and insults.

And I'd like to retract my drunken radgey stuff.

Now does it matter more who supports the Iraqi people than either Bush or Peace?

by noam chomsky Mon Dec 29, 2003 16:59

++++++++++++++++++++++
Dictators R Us

By Noam Chomsky, AlterNet
December 22, 2003

All people who have any concern for human rights, justice and integrity
should be overjoyed by the capture of Saddam Hussein, and should be
awaiting a fair trial for him by an international tribunal.


An indictment of Saddam's atrocities would include not only his
slaughter and gassing of Kurds in 1988 but also, rather crucially, his
massacre of the Shiite rebels who might have overthrown him in 1991.


At the time, Washington and its allies held the "strikingly unanimous
view (that) whatever the sins of the Iraqi leader, he offered the West
and the region a better hope for his country's stability than did those
who have suffered his repression," reported Alan Cowell in the New York
Times.
[...]
This piece originally appeared in The Toronto Star.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17435
http://www.mail-archive.com/nettime-l@bbs.thing.net/msg01487.html

by Bernard Dunleavy Mon Dec 29, 2003 18:13

It's so totally obvious he's got an axe to grind - he never let's truth reality in the way of a good argument.

"Who would expect that the Unites Satates would ever permit an independent Iraqi government to exist?"

Duh, they allowed an independent German government to exist!! For starters, and a Japanese one.

Noam's place in the top 10 dumbest Americans is secure.

by Dr. Strangelove Tue Dec 30, 2003 01:14

The German government is not so independent as you might like to think.
Since 1945 German politics has been carefully watched and controlled by the US as an occupying power (the US still has a sizeable military presence in Germany - at least in the Western part).
There is admittedly some nominal independence in the sense that the German government was able to refuse participation in the invasion of Iraq ..... but its overall room for manoeuver is not that great ........

On a fine legal point, the present German Constitution was more or less imposed by the Allied Powers. It is called the "Basic Law FOR the Federal Republic of Germany" (Grundgesetz für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland), not the "Basic Law OF the Federal Republic of Germany" (Grundgesetz DER Bundesrepublik Deutschland) and contains the following clause:
Article 146 (Duration of validity of the Basic Law; amended by Unification Treaty of 31 August 1990 and federal statute 23 September 1990).
This Basic Law, which is valid for the entire German people following the achievement of the unity and freedom of Germany, shall cease to be in force on the day on which a constitution adopted by a free decision of the German people comes into force.

In other words, the constitution presently in force openly acknowledges that it was not adopted by a free decision of the German people ..... but rather by a diktat of the conquering powers .....

Of course you can go to jail in Germany if you mention things like that too loudly ...... I believe you chappies call it "democracy" and "the rule of law" .......

by redjade Thu Mar 10, 2005 00:30

A former U.S. Marine who participated in capturing ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein said the public version of his capture was fabricated.

[....]

"I was among the 20-man unit, including eight of Arab descent, who searched for Saddam for three days in the area of Dour near Tikrit, and we found him in a modest home in a small village and not in a hole as announced," Abou Rabeh said.

"We captured him after fierce resistance during which a Marine of Sudanese origin was killed," he said.

He said Saddam himself fired at them with a gun from the window of a room on the second floor. Then they shouted at him in Arabic: "You have to surrender. ... There is no point in resisting."

"Later on, a military production team fabricated the film of Saddam's capture in a hole, which was in fact a deserted well," Abou Rabeh said.

Abou Rabeh was interviewed in Lebanon.