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Message of Solidarity to Socialist Party from SWP

category dublin | bin tax / household tax / water tax | opinion/analysis author Wednesday October 22, 2003 13:02author by E - SWP Report this post to the editors

Congratulations to Joe and Clare

Issued at SP Dublin welcome back meeting at the Gresham Hotel last weekend..

Joe Higgins and Clare Daly should be thanked by every worker and trade unionist in the country. They have shown tremendous courage in standing up against the bin tax.

For this they have been attacked by the right wing media and their Party has been witch hunted on the radio and in the papers

By standing by the workers who elected them and refusing to cow tow to the courts they have shown an alternative way to fight for justice and working class peoples rights

In the past, when workers voted for parties like Labour, they always sold them out. They promise to fight for us but end up in coalitions with right wing parties like Fianna Fail or Fine Gael. Once in power they attack the very workers that put them there.

In our unions the same type of people who are in the leadership have pushed partnership deals that have seen the benefits of the boom go to the rich and the business community while the services that workers rely on are been attacked and lined up for privatization.

By facing down the council threats and going to jail Joe and Clare have proven that they are made of very different stuff.

Joe and Clare have reminded us that it is possible to have leadership that will stand by workers and not sell out to get a ministerial Merc. They have shown that we can return to the ideals that inspired Larkin and Connelly and the founders of the Irish Labour movement

One of the Socialist Workers Party's own leading members Brid Smith from the Ballyfermot Anti Bin tax campaign is now facing into her second week in prison, along with 11 other men and women. Another of our members in Tallaght is facing charges in court next week, while others have been injuncted and are to face the High Court. Like the Socialist Party members, our members will stand with the workers and communities all the way.

These events show that more than ever we need those on the left to work together in the interest of the workers movement.

The anti bin tax campaign shows that we can do it. For the future of the movement we believe that it is essential that we continue and extend this co- operation.

Recently both parties members have worked in the anti capitalist movement such as in organizations like Globalise Resistance.

The Socialist Workers Party and others built up the Irish Anti War movement by working alongside anybody that opposed the obscenity of Bush's war for oil. When those of us who opposed the war mongers worked together we built the biggest political demonstration in decades, with 100,000 people marching in Dublin.

We believe that the sort of co operation over the bin' tax should be spread across other issues that affect workers lives; in our unions, in supporting the fight against privatisation, in defense of our health system. above all in showing that there is an alternative to capitalism and the Free Market.

In the next elections both the Socialist Workers Party and Socialist Party should agree a joint list of candidates to contest every area in Dublin on a clear socialist platform.

Like the Socialist Party, the Socialist Workers Party believes in fighting for end to the obscene inequality and injustice we see in the world. We believe that working people can change the world and that this generation is seeing the beginnings of that change.

We appeal to all of those who want to play a part in the fight for Socialism to work together with us.

Related Link: http://www.swp.ie
author by Danpublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 13:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There's always an agenda with the SWP. In this case its the demand for a joint slate of candidates in Dublin for the local elections. While it makes sense in some respect, it's the SWP's hectoring that is annoying. You must do it our way, blah, blah!

author by Angry Socialistpublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 14:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Go and Shag off you opportunistic bandwagon jumping cretins!

author by SPmember - SPpublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 14:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Of course this message of soliarity is most welcome and I'm sure I'm not alone in thanking the SWP for the gesture.
One criticism however is that the SWP don't seem to think it is possible to have an electoral alliance with non-marxist working class activists and still stand on your own clear socialist programme. The approach of our organisation has always been two pronged. We aim both to build up the class independance of the working class through broad combatitive working class campaigns while at the same time building our own revolutionary organisation with a clear socialist programme. It is unlikely that an electoral alliance between our two partes would further either of these two goals but I would suggest that SWP activists get involved building a broader movement at the same time as standing and campaigning on a clear socialist programme.

author by @publication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 14:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why should the SP go into an alliance with the SWP? The SWP have not done any serious work on the ground, they have no base among working people, they represent nothing! In my opinion it would be far better for the SP to forge an alliance with community activists that are running for the elections.

The SWP have been arguing against blockades and for Labour and SF to get involved in Bin Tax camapign. You have consistently shown that you are soft, why do you want a 'socialist' bloc and rule out work with genuine communitiy activists?

author by hs - sppublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 14:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thanks for the meassage of solidarity. Its very welcome, personally I have to be convinced that the Socialist Alliance would win more votes than the Socialist Party and Socialist Workers Party seperately. I think most people vote for work candidates have done rather than the party name.
I also am against the idea of an alliance appearing a few weeks before an election and going away again. Like what has happened in england, the SA there has no support and fair enough they don't do anything except contest elections. it barely exists between.
So far i'm not convinced.

author by Co-operationpublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 14:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Work together in solidarity and mutual co-operation. Between you - you must defeat capitalism.

author by Pablo - Rebel Alliancepublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 15:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thank you obi wan kenobi

author by An amused thatcherite - Fianna Failpublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 17:48author email socialistsarescum at margaret dot comauthor address Londonauthor phone 0044 1217754040Report this post to the editors

You poor lefties. You fight even when you agree with one another!!! It's like "I hate the bin tax MORE than you do" "Im a REAL socialist" "I've been to more anti war protests than you, na-na-na-na-na"

I'd call you nasty names, but it seems you already think each other are scumbags.

LONG LIVE GEORGE BUSH!!

Related Link: http://www.margaretthatcher.com
author by Johanpublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 18:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This isn't a "message of solidarity" at all.

This is a proposal for an electoral pact wrapped up in some seriously deep-tongue-action brown nosing.

author by Whitepantspublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 19:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I notice that the letter doesn't bother with the usual padding in its request for an electoral alliance with the SP.

All the stuff about the Workers Party, or other left wing groups or even independent activists that appeared in earlier incarnations of the SWP's alliance request has been stripped away. They have all vanished.

We are down to what the SWP is really looking for, a deal with the SP.

The proposal also seems to be that the two parties should stand loads of paper candidates because there is no way that they could run real campaigns in "every area of Dublin".

author by Stiofánpublication date Wed Oct 22, 2003 20:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Haven't been near a radio all day. Just curious to know what happened with the activists from Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown who were in court today following the blockades last week in Sandyford? Any info out there?

author by Socialist Workers Partypublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 00:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Following out call for an electoral alliance with the SP, we would not like to propose a merger of the two organisations.

To avoid a cumbersome, double-barrelled acronym, we would propose that both parties be allowed retain parts of their name.

Recognising the heroics of Joe and Claire in recent days, we are willing to allow the SP to keep two parts of their party name, while we will chose only one.

Therefore, the SP provide the words "socialist" and "party", and we will provide the word "workers".

Fantastic, now we have a united revolutionary working class party in Ireland entited the "SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY"

author by The Real Maggie T - Monter Raving Tory Partypublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'd like to thank my agnt provocateur Seanin AKA Dairius McGann of Drogheda for spreading my word. People like Dairius are invaluble to me because (and you may find this hard to believe) I can only be in one place at a time!

author by seytonpublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"He attacked anarchists and the grassroots gathering on the radio and on the Irish Times."

I ain;t no fan of Ricky Boyd Barrett but I have to say that he did not attack the anarchists in the corporate media. If ye wanna go down that road, I think that Gregor Kerr has a few questions to answer over his interview with the corporate media over the bin tax. At a time when the anti-bin tax camapign is under attack from the capitalist press, in true anarchist fashion, Gregor attacks the 'trots' with his friends in the capitalist press.

author by Degeneratepublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Where, when and how did Gregor do that?

author by City Boypublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Tongue-in-cheek
Extract from IT (pay per view)
Mr Richard Boyd Barrett said pickets would not be resuming at Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown depots as the policy of non-collection had been suspended there. However, he accused that council and the other Dublin local authorities of being wrong in their estimate of the numbers who had paid their charges. He also criticised sections of the "national media" which he said had accepted these figures without checking.

author by M'Lordpublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What is Richard saying! Just because he got his knuckles rapped by a Judge yesterday he goes back to the SWP's old (now new again) possition of 'no blockades'. The SWP don't seem to realise that the Campaign needs to be fought on a Dublin wide basis. We dont block trucks in DLR because they are not implementing non collection in DLR, what next? We don't block trucks in my estate because they are not implementing non collection in my estate!

The SWP are aiding the Council's in their job of dividing the campaigns. I thought last Tuesday and Wednesday were excellant days of action. We cannot rule out blockades in DLR before they start non collection.

This is a clear example of SWP's softness and their inability to have the correct tactics and to gauge the mood of activists. The SWP have not been active on the bin tax in DLR and elsewhere for months on end throughout the last 4 or 5 years, now they think they have the right to talk to the media and say what the camapign will and won't do!

author by Degeneratepublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 13:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Unlike the court cases dealing with Fingal and the City there doesn't seem to be as much detailed information on what happened in the DL/R injuction, either here or in the gutter press.

So what happened and was RBB one of those up in court yesterday?

author by Andrewpublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 13:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'd guess Seyton is referring to the Sunday Independent piece last Sunday. If he'd read it a bit more carefully he'd have realised that the Sindo did not interview Gregor but is quoting from an article published in Workers Solidarity No 63 that Gregor wrote in 2001! The Sindo admits this, they head the quote by referring to "The two year old document Bin charges a Strategy to Win detailed the same tactics used during the last three weeks" That article is at http://struggle.ws/ws/2001/63/strategy.html

Related Link: http://struggle.ws/wsm/bins.html
author by Degeneratepublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 13:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Also what happened in the case of the Ballymount 2 and their public order hearing.

author by pasionariapublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 15:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

IMC .. JUST ABOVE, YOU HAVE MADE SOME ALLEGATIONS. CAN U PLEASE PROVIDE QUOTES AND FACTS. INSTEAD OF RAMBLING BULLSHIT.

""The SWP attacked, slandered and sabotaged, in true CIA fashion, all individuals and organisations who engaged in direct action and organised independently from them against the war.""
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT WHEN ONE GROUP HAS A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION ON TACTICS, THAT IT IS AN "ATTACK"??


""Rich Boy Barrett (tell us about your offshore bank accounts) attacked anti-war activists on the corporate media repeatedly.""

REALLY!! NEVER SAW RICHARDS NAME MENTIONED IN THE REPORTS AS AN OFFSHORE INVESTOR. PLEASE PROVIDE A LINK TO BACK UP THIS ALLEGATION.


"" There is mounting evidence that the SWP, as activists in the UK have been denouncing for years, has very strange connections with very high powers... ""

PLEASE PRESENT THIS MOUNTING EVIDENCE, IF THERE IS SUCH MOUNTING EVEIDENCE I AM SURE THAT YOU WILL HAVE NO PROBELM POSTING IT, UN LESS YOU ARE A MEMBER OF SCOTLAND YARD ETC.

IMC, GROW UP. DO SOMETHING USEFUL, CONCENTRATE ON WHY THE WORLD IS FUCKED UP. THE SWP ARE NOT CAPITALISTS, NOR HAVE THEY EVER DEFENDED STALINISM....

author by Raypublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 15:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

When Richie appeared on Morning Ireland he described the Grassroots protesters as 'small and disorganised'. You can find the exact quotes, and probably a transcript of his appearance, if you look back through the archives. If someone made similar comments about the IAWM, GR, or SWP, I'm sure they'd be interpreted as an attack. Don't you agree?

author by Joepublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 15:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Pasionaria why have you named yourself after a stalinist? One who provided cover for the execution of trots and anarchists alike? Is this the same socialism lite that sees the SWP using Che as a recruiting icon?

Seyton I've just looked at the Sunday Indo. article and there is NO WAY you could have missed the TWO statements in it that the quotes are from a two year old article. The second one "And even two years ago" actually heads the quote you are probably objecting to.

Now I'm also unaware of ANY case in Ireland of anarchists having a go at trots in an interview with the corporate media. I can list two recent examples of trots doing just this.

1. RBB's attacks on Morning Ireland on the GNAW March 1st action at Shannon.

2. Some SP muppet in the Irish Times having a go at the Black Bloc on return from Evian.

So isn't this method that you say is typical of anarchists actually typical of trots? And haven't you either lied or been lied to in relation to the source of the Sunday Indo article.

author by path in residence - been quiet for a while...publication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 15:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If anyone's interested.

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=31327

author by The Torquemada - Spanish inquisitionpublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 16:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Oh would this be the SP Muppet who was recently up in court for blockading bin trucks? What a Troll.

author by Joepublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 16:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I can't remember his name so I don't know. If so I'm not sure what that is meant to prove except that someone can be a muppet on one occasion and end up in the High Court for doing the right thing on another.

Perhaps you have the High Court mixed up with the confessional booth for its ability to grant absolution for past sins? Anyway its all pretty irrelevant to the point under discussion.

author by Black - Redpublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 16:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I think it is well known that the SP and especially its grassroots are opposed to the black block, its tactics etc, why shouldn't they critize them. After all you wouldn't complain if the critized stalinists or the swp. The truth is the black block are just the stereotype the right wing want. And in truth their effectiveness so far in Ireland hasn't been up to much. One attempted squat (great idea, but no one thought the owners might turn up!!!!) and then they called the police!! Next they "blockaded" a petrol station for an hour till they got bored and started to "drift Away" as one of their numbers said, as we've no leaders etc. In other words no unity and one once got bored it was all over. No political statements or press releases nothing at all, might as well never have happened. If this can't be critized what can?
One of the strangest reports has been a block blocker saying that how great it was when their direct action slowed down traffic on the way there (A march to the rest of us). Sorry lads but you need to be critized. I am an anarchist lets see actual democracy and discussion, lets see action inside the workplaces and communities, the WSM are doing really good things. The black block is a distraction from this. The community work the wsm and others are involved in is much more important.

author by Joepublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 16:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Black - Red I suggest you re-read the thread, the context of the discussion is whether attacking other left groups in the CORPORATE press in on not whether or it is all right to criticise other left groups. One is not the same as the other.

The specifics of the particular slanders used by the SP in that Irish Times interview have been discussed to exhaustion on indymedia already, I don't intend to revisit them. As for your Irish examples above some of the criticisms do have a pinch of truth to them but others are confusing apples with oranges while still others are missing the oaks growing from acorns that you thought had failed.

author by red - blackpublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 17:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"the context of the discussion is whether attacking other left groups in the CORPORATE press in on not whether or it is all right to criticise other left groups"

Is it to be done in secret then? If I critize another individual party or group shouldn't I at least have the balls to do it in public? And anyway anyone from any corporate paper can read indymedia. I don't think the sp went to the corporate press, they asked them what they think of BB. and they answered. And i agree with some of their analysis, the BB will be used to destroy the anarchist cause. Watch and see.

author by red - blandpublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 17:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"the context of the discussion is whether attacking other left groups in the CORPORATE press in on not whether or it is all right to criticise other left groups"

the context of the thread is a leaflet handed out by the SWP at an SP meeting!!!! And the fact that the WSM as usual were ignored

author by Joepublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 17:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So if on the next bin tax blockade I'm on some Irish Times reporter asks me what I think of Joe Higgins I should reply

"I think, whether he knows it or not, he's out to set up a state capitalist dictatorship in which workers will be executed for failing to toe the party line and any left opposition will be suppressed."

That after all is what I think Socialist Party politics would lead to if they ever got power. However if asked that question I'd actually reply something like

"Joe Higgins is one person in a campaign of 10's of thousands. The state may have been able to jail Joe and 14 others but if thousands of people took part in blockades they would not be able to defeat us"

I've steered clear of saying anything about the SP's role in the campaign precisly because anything said at this point may turn up in the Sindo. But maybe you also think it would be wise to give Joe Duffy a ring to have a chat on air about some of problems of internal democracy in the campaign? Or maybe like me you'd prefer to see these raised at some later point?

author by J.V Stalin - Communist Party of Irelandpublication date Thu Oct 23, 2003 21:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You Trots & Anarchists are soo pathetic. Pathetic

Related Link: http://www.communistpartyofireland.ie
author by yowlypublication date Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well why the hell has Gregor Kerr given an interview to a right wing sindo journalist in which he attacks the SP and the campiang for being 'undemocratic' and 'electoralist' etc. It is an absolute disgrace that Gregor, when the campaing is under attack that he teams up with the right wing media in order to have a cheap jibe at the SP.

I don't agree with Gregor about the undemocratic nature of the campaign or the motivations of the SP, but while the campaing is under attack he should keep this discussion within the Anti Bin Tax campaign.

All this leads to is a deep distrust of Anarchists within the campaign

author by Raypublication date Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Gregor didn't give an interview to a Sindo journalist (AFAIK he's not even in the country at the moment). One of them read a two year old article in Workers Solidarity. Do try to keep up.

author by yowerlypublication date Fri Oct 24, 2003 13:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well he said he didn't do an interview. Can you trust an Anarchist?

author by Raypublication date Fri Oct 24, 2003 13:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1. Gregor isn't in the country to give an interview.
2. The Sindo article clearly says that its quoting from a two year old article.
3. All this information is contained in the comments above. RTFC.

author by Damien Cartonpublication date Fri Oct 24, 2003 13:25author address Dublinauthor phone Report this post to the editors

This was obviously based on an article published two years ago, not a recent interview, so cop on.

As for trusting an anarchist, Gregor is up front about his politics. I think I would be inclined to trust him a lot more than I trust you (whoever you are)

author by IMC readerpublication date Fri Oct 24, 2003 13:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT WHEN ONE GROUP HAS A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION ON TACTICS, THAT IT IS AN "ATTACK"??

It's one thing to have a different opinion on tactics, quite another to run to the corpoarte media and launch an all out attack on another section of the anti-war movement. Why RBB & co organised a march aimed at sabotaging direct action at Shannon? Why did they undermined and systematically censored the Grassroots Gathering and other independent groups? Why did they fail to support direct action (CW5, Mary kelly, etc) when it was clear that it was achieving something (US companies started to pull out of Shannon)? Why RBB is now dividing the anti-bin tax campaign? This is the kind of "evidence" I was referring to.

REALLY!! NEVER SAW RICHARDS NAME MENTIONED IN THE REPORTS AS AN OFFSHORE INVESTOR. PLEASE PROVIDE A LINK TO BACK UP THIS ALLEGATION.

Well, I haven't seen Bush's name mentioned among war criminals. That doesn't mean he is innocent. Do you believe that people can become rich in a honest way under capitalism? That's an interesting idea for a socialist!

author by Joepublication date Fri Oct 24, 2003 13:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This is rather interesting. The Sindo is very clear on the origins of the quotations. I've just looked at it again and in fact it says THREE times and not just TWICE that they are from 2001.

Paragraph 2 starts "As far back as March 2001, Gregor Kerr, the formed secretary of the Federation of Dublin Anti-Water Charge Campaigns ... published .."

Paragraph 3 starts "The two year old document Bin Charges - a strategy to win detailed the same tactics used during the last two weeks"

Paragraph 5 starts "And even two years ago, Gregor Kerr ..."

Now anyone who had actually read the article would have to be an idiot to conclude that the quotes it contains were made last week. Yet we have had two such 'idiots' posting to this thread already. The second 'idiots' post AFTER it has already been pointed out TWICE that the article itself gives the source as two years back.

Both 'idiots' use their misrepresentation of the article to attack anarchism in general. Both clearly come from a political postion close to if not in the Socialist Party. They are anonymous but their other comments make this obvious.

I put 'idiot' in inverted commas because there are two possibilities here beyond stupidity.

1. That one or both of our idiots has not actually read the article in question but is merely repreated what they have been told by a party member in a pub or at a meeting. In that case they have been lied to.

2. That one or both of the idiots has read the article and is simplying lying about the contents. This would be idiotic.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that what we are seeing here is a rather nasty bit of political spin doctoring. The harder question is WHY is it happening.

author by Mickey - SP (personal capacity)publication date Fri Oct 24, 2003 18:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Look, for fucks sake, Gregor didn't give an interview to the Sunday Independent.

Instead the rag took quotes from a two year old article and turned it into a "story". What Gregor was arguing was in my view complete nonsense, but he wasn't trying to get it into the Sunday Independent.

This is a very bitter battle and we have to expect all kinds of crap from the right wing press.

Now shouldn't we all have something more important to do?

author by pasionariapublication date Sat Oct 25, 2003 17:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

for joes benefit i am going to justify my user name.

la pasionaria (aka dolores ibarruri) of course believed in the "greatness" of russia and blindly so.

however she was a great speaker and made great analysis of the exploitation of the basque miners by the bosses.

and reading her book ("they shall not pass") woke me up when i was in school.
so if it is ok with joe, i use her name, and i also say to you. i am not a stalinist.

for IMC.

very mature, facts are there that bush is a war criminal.
as far as i know RBB works full time with the SWP... do you claim that people receiving social welfare are "rich"??/

from your earlier contribution... why have u not answered and expanded on this so called "evidence"

"" There is mounting evidence that the SWP, as activists in the UK have been denouncing for years, has very strange connections with very high powers... ""

author by Redskinpublication date Sun Oct 26, 2003 00:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

RBB is not Tony O'Reilly. He has absolutly no control over the corporate media. As an SWP member im fairly sure he is suspicious of and opposed to them. That is why the SWP publish Socialist Worker as an alternative to the corporate press. But occasionaly the hard left must use the corporate media, when possible on their own terms.

Could he have been misquoted, his comments manipulated etc.? The Sindo regularly stiches up the left, Eoghan Harris writes for them for fucks sake. He as their class ene,y and they will try to make him look foolish and divide us at every opportunity.

IMC is alledging very specific things about RBB. If he cannot back them up, his postings should be removed.

author by pasionariapublication date Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i agree redskin.

what imc has posted is defamation of character.

and such slander should be removed.

author by Raypublication date Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He was interviewed on a live radio programme. He wasn't misquoted, and his comments weren't manipulated, nor were they taken out of context. Follow the link.

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=31327
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