I would like to thank the Far-Left.
national |
bin tax / household tax / water tax |
opinion/analysis 
Tuesday October 21, 2003 12:42
by Pat D
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Far-Left for providing one of the most entertaining political campaigns of the last few years. How I've laughed as I've watched a group of Socialist/SWP people badly run, badly represent and badly debate a ridiculous "struggle" that nobody wants. Everyone knows they're simply doing it to try and gain seats in next years local elections - but they may have achieved the complete opposite. Their campaign is about to implode (probably with the usual Left-Wing in-fighting and bickering), and the only thing they've gained is the comtempt of the vast majority of Dublin householders. Expect repercussions in the next Local and General elections. No wonder the Labour Party have kept relatively quiet on the issue over the last few weeks.
"There is no other way that Dublin's waste crisis can be solved. And the only way we are ever going to achieve this is by sticking to the principle of paying for what we throw away. Once you subsume the cost of a bin service into overall taxation, you remove any incentive for people to cut back on waste.
That is the reality. Nothing works like charging. Most of us are well-intentioned, but lazy. It takes an avoidable charge to get us to make the effort.
Why should you go to the bother of sorting out cardboard and paper, plastics, tetra packs, cans and biodegradable waste, if your neighbour just throws it all in the bin and gets rid of it for nothing?"
..sums it all up really.
Comments (39 of 39)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39Crikey, the Anti-Bin Tax people took some hammering on the Late Late Show the other night. Easily 5-0 to the people that want a proper waste collection system in Dublin.
you know nothing about the campaign, the vast majority of members are not associated with either SP or SWP. but i am sure that the SP in particular will gain from the great amount of work they have out into the campaign.
the fact that you feel the need to write such trite nonsense shows how much the campaign is rattling the establishment and their lackeys.
I know this probably goes against some Indymedia policy but as the muppet above wants to troll I thought it would be interesting to read what that bastion of the far left says, The Sunday Business Post that is:
The bin tax is a classic example.This is a tax that has been introduced because the government has systematically starved local councils of
cash, forcing them to seek revenue elsewhere.
Expect more of it when the 2004 estimates are published next month. Water charges are next, then `congestion' charges', then domestic
rates, then perhaps a tollgate on city parks.
But to isten to the government, one would think there was something morally pure about the bin tax. It is as if the existing method of paying
for local services, with normal taxes through the Exchequer to the Local Government Fund, is in some way tainted.
There are copious references to the `polluter pays' principle.
This is, of course, cant. If this principle were applied to greenhouse gases our dairy and beef farmers would be made to pay the bulk for
their cows, and our hauliers would pay 95 per cent of motor tax for the damage their trucks inflict on the roads.
Nor is the bin tax `fair' - and it would not take a first-class economic brain to explain to the Minister for the Environment Martin Cullen why
it is unjust.
Every modern democracy in the world, whether governed by the right or by the left, operates on the principle that the fairest form of tax is
a progressive income tax. In other words, the more you earn, the greater proportion of your income you pay.
Even in the United States, billionaire Malcolm Forbes was laughed out of the presidential race when he proposed a `flat tax', where everyone, rich and poor, would pay the same rate of tax.
Even more regressive are flat fees, such as the bin tax, where everyone pays the same amount.
Fianna Fail and the PDs are arguing that these flat fees are the price we pay for low personal tax rates.
But this is false. The low rates were specifically negotiated in lieu of pay rises under the partnership agreements. On wider waste issues,the government uses the same highpitched
pseudo-moralistic whine to cover up its own failings.
Cullen appeared on RTE's Questions & Answers last week to express his determination to place a large incinerator in Ringsend; he informed local people that they should be delighted with this.
The plan involves trucking in thousands of tonnes of waste each day from all over the capital, using the M50 ring-road. But the ring-road
doesn't actually exist. Cullen's colleague, the Minister for Transport, Seamus Brennan, has abandoned the ring-road project.
So the hundreds of trucks will have to trundle through residential Dun Laoghaire, Monkstown, Blackrock, Booterstown and
Sandymount, past all the houses and the schools and the strand, 24 hours a day, to get to the incinerator.
Of course, any suggestion that the incinerator should be put on the part of the M50 that does exist, away from the city centre, is quickly
characterised by Fianna Fail as immoral.
This new government puritanism betrays a burgeoning sense-of-irony deficit within Fianna Fail.
Albert Reynolds' government press officer, the astute Sean Duignan, once told colleagues that he had noticed a key difference between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael.
Whenever a damaging allegation was made about their party, he explained, Fianna Failers would huddle together and murmur "Jaysus, did we do that? How are we going to get out of this one?"
Fine Gaelers, he said, would react by bellowing: "This is an outrage, a scandalous lie spread by our enemies!"
No more. Nowadays, Fianna Fail, whose tent at the Galway Races each year is usually jammed with developers, sees no irony in lecturing the public about environmentally sustainable planning.
They didn't even crack a wry smile after the Phoenix revealed that they had appointed a man with past tax troubles, Alan Mahon,to head a tribunal investigating . . . tax dodging.
Perhaps this new, humourless Fianna Fail is here to stay.
But at the very moment Micheal Martin was lecturing the ard fheis audience on the smoking ban last weekend, there were at least 25 party members in the gents, pulling on cigarettes, regaling each other with stories and breaking into raucous laughter.
One got the impression that these men would be quite happy to step off the pavement if they saw a gap in the traffic, even if that meant leaving their government ministers diligently waiting for the green man.
Actually, I've followed it with interest from day one, and it really is hilarious. From the Late Late Show to watching about 30 people greet Joe Higgins outside jail, it only proves how small and ill-thought the campaign is.
There might have been 'only' 30 outside the jail on a Saturday morning but there was 500+ on Saturday night.
We haven't gone away - you know.
"Even more regressive are flat fees, such as the bin tax, where everyone pays the same amount. "
What balderdash. It isn't a flat fee, it's based on what you throw out.
"All bins in the Fingal area carry the slogan You Only Pay For What You Throw Away. With a bit of effort, putting all your paper, cardboard and cans in the "free" green bin, recycling your bottles and plastics at your local recycling centre and composting your kitchen waste in the garden, you can drastically reduce the amount that you put in the black bin.
With good management you might only have to put out your black bin every second or third week. So you buy fewer bin tokens. That's where the saving comes in. And that's where the incentive lies. "
Give it up, you've lost. Deal with it.
"There might have been 'only' 30 outside the jail on a Saturday morning but there was 500+ on Saturday night.
We haven't gone away - you know. "
500+? Oh well then, you've really got the support of the 1.5 million dublin residents. You haven't gone away, but you will be gone soon.
Poor Pat D.
Lets see the very unpopular bin tax campaign has seen demonstrations of up to 4,000 people.
The second largest party in the state called a 'wtop the campaign' picket of the meeting the SP had when Joe and Clare got out of jail. This got lots of free advertisement on the radio. 8 people turned up for this picket.
Poor Pat D
I am constantly amused by the way opinions and posts that differ from the narrow-minded far-left-wing viewpoint on IndyMorons.ie are considered "trolls". This is of course typical of the type of people on this site - if you don't agree with us, you're wrong.
and the prison is going to get knockde down and moved so they say/spin. And there are still over ten protesters in the prison.
And ahem, Dublin doesn't have 1.5 million inhabitants, that is an untruthful old chestnut that really is unworthy of the twine.
Why is that Dubliners love to say ooooo it's a million and a half now, great. and Irish people love to say ooooo it's 4 million in the Republic of Ireland now, ooooo yes and nearly half of 'em live in dublin!! so they do.
well they don't. It's complete shite.
Dublin has a population which is just under one million, taken together with it's outlying suburbs. One million and a half people live on the east coast of the island between Dundalk and Wexford within a twenty km strip.
You're as bad as Londoners- oooooo it's twelve million and five million people come to work everyday.
well it isn't. It's just about six million and the transport system peaks in summer months with an extra seven million individual journeys.
Barcelona has a population of a little over a million. ooooooo but they go on about it, it's two million they say, is it bollox, what is wrong with Europeans when they feel this need to overestimate the populations of their cities and then invariable underestimate populations of third world countries?
I'll test ye-
how many people live in China?
how many people live in Nigeria?
how many people live in Brazil?
how many people live in Rio de Janeiro?
Sneer all you want PD (what an Ironic initial), we are winning.
If you want to win a campaign such as the Stop the Bin Tax, you need the support of the majority of Dublin Householders. YOU DON'T. You can only gather the support of a TINY minority, as is displayed by 30 people greeting Joe Higgins and 500 on saturday night. You are losing and you will be beaten. Get over it.
And as for my post being a troll, will someone please read Iosaf's posts. Is this guy for real, or stoned. 1000 posts and every single one of them is utter rubbish. He obviously conceals his low intelligence by writing guff and pretending that it's "radical" and "out there", man.
Though I strongly support the left in general, I think it is unfair to merely dismise Pat D as a troll. Not only unfair but very dissapointing.
Despite his snide remarks he raises some credible points such as:-
"That is the reality. Nothing works like charging. Most of us are well-intentioned, but lazy. It takes an avoidable charge to get us to make the effort."
I think these points should be dealt with, not just merely dismissed as troll comments.
I think this site needs to embrace "alternative" views and encourage people from the right to engage with the site - and not just tell them to get lost and pass them off as trolls.
Regards.
500 in the gresham to listen to clare & joe; 8 outside in favour of the bin tax. you lot are the losers.
as for iosaf, stoned he may be but he still makers more sense than you do.
Did anybody see the sunday papers? The ST had a big scare story about the far-left. The Sindo broke new ground in moving from the red-scare to the black-scare of the anarchists. Amusingly they claimed that the WSM had 'infiltrated' the campaign in significant numbers. Beside the article was a picture of two WSMers holding placards with 'anarchists against the bin tax' in big letters - obviously we are a bit sloppy when it comes to keeping the infiltration secret.
In fact, not only did we trumpet our 'infiltration' on placards, we also co-founded the campaign, and our members were chair of the south dublin campaign and secretary of the city campaign until recently - all without any attempt to conceal our politics. It looks like we're going to have to go back to spy school for lessons in infiltration.
On another note, I'd say that this big 'far-left' scare is a prelude to them attempting to send in the cops to break the campaign. We really need BIG numbers on the next round of blockades, especially next week. At this stage they've used virtually their entire arsenal of legal and propaganda weapons. If we can manage to maintain the blockades at this stage, they will be in real trouble. There's only so much escalating that they can do before it ceases to be worth it.
"pat d
by pat c Tuesday, Oct 21 2003, 12:59pm
500 in the gresham to listen to clare & joe; 8 outside in favour of the bin tax. you lot are the losers.
as for iosaf, stoned he may be but he still makers more sense than you do."
I mean really Pat C, you must try a little bit harder than this. You're just making it too easy for me. Iosaf and Sense are not words you use in the same sentence.
iosaf does make more sense than you. all you are capable of is rants against the campaign. inaccurate demonisation of the sp & swp.
where is your evidence that the campaign is losing? last week the campaign shut down bin collections in dublin.
where are the demos in support of bin tax? so far all we have seen is 8 saddos from yfg picketing the joe & clare meeting.
if you think you are winning then why dont you organise pro bin tax demos?
i call you a troll because your comments are full of lies and misrepresentations.
blahblahblah. will you people stop shiting on about the bin tax. is indymedia now just a bin tax forum? im sick of hearing about it. seriously, SHUT UP.
i've been in my house 3 weeks and we got a bill for 380 euro because the people who just moved out(our landlady + her family) didn't pay their tax. we rang her and she told us to ignore it, now our bin wasn't collected and the rubbish is piling up, and yes, our recycle bin is overflowing too(as it is every month).
campaign for a fair system you lazy slobs, not a free one. RECYCLE and REUSE. i'm sure you heard it before.
oh and dont bother wetting yourself to tell me off for being such a "moron" or whatever you were thinking about angrily typing, cuz i'm staying away from indymedia for a whilt til this is all sorted out.
bye bye now
flat fee = 1 bin = 1 price, for every one., nothing to do with weight or personal income.
Non-class question;
Question, how much can you fit in a bin?
Answer, as much as possible!
"That is the reality. Nothing works like charging. Most of us are well-intentioned, but lazy. It takes an avoidable charge to get us to make the effort"
I won't bother arguing with our troll of the day, but anonymous, you should know better. Please point me towards any evidence whatsoever that the bin tax has led to a reduction in the amount of waste from the household sector. The only studies that I have seen, from Waterford and Sligo I think, have shown no decrease in waste, but a marked increase in waste-burning and illegal dumping. Do you have access to any studies that contradict this?
The evidence suggests that, rather than having to force people to recycle through coercive measures like taxes, if the recycling infrastructure is provided people will avail of it, without any need for coercion. To quote the national waste survey of 1998: "the recovery rate for the household waste stream has fallen from 4.5% in 1995 to 3.2% in 1998, mainly as a result of the fall off in the collection of waste paper from the household sector." That is to say that when councils stopped providing a free or subsidised recycling service in the late 1990's, recycling rates dropped. This tends to suggest that people do not have to be forced to recycle (there was no financial incentive to use these collection services) - just given access to facilities.
Another thing to bear in mind when discussing recycling is that, even in the current climate, if anything householders recycle too much. The majority of waste that goes to our bring centres ends up in landfills. There is simply no point in householders bringing more waste to these centres until there is an adequate recycling infrastructure, especially when these trips usually involve a 'discretionary' car journey. The problem of household waste recycling in Ireland is one of infrastructure, nothing else. The government has recently being scaling back on this infrastructure (closure of IGB, ending of paper collections in Dublin...) and there is nothing to suggest that this is set to change. Anybody who is concerned with waste management and recycling should be concentrating on this. Until the infrastructure is adequate to handle the volume of waste presented by householders, there is no benefit in encouraging householders to recycle more. Given the lack of government support, householders deserve a lot of praise for their attempts to reduce and recycle, attempts which have far surpassed those of the government.
Though you are still trying to pass him off as just a troll, I thank you for being the first person on this thread to meaningfully address some of the points as he has raised.
The point I am trying to make is broader that just the bin tax. What I am trying to say is that Indymedia is largely a one sided affair. It is dominated by the left and there is little real argument with the right. I believe that this is unhealthy and not desireable. Hence when people like Pat D come on and raise counter arguments to the left, I think that rather than just passing them off as trolls and basically telling them to get lost - we should encourage them to post their arguments and engage in debate.
I believe this will serve two purposes and probably many more:-
1. Clarify, strengthen, develop and change our own arguments and thoughts for the better.
2. Help right wing thinkers to think more about left wing politics. Educate them. And not to just merely pass left wing thinkers off as "commies" or left wing lunes. Obviously their view points will not change overnight. But I believe a worldwide process of debate with the right will greatly help to better their beliefs and minds over time.
Regards.
Annonymous makes a great point in regard to the lack of right wing opinion on Indymedia. We could argue that since the right have enough of the media already, they're hardly likely to show up here, but those that do should be welcomed.
But simply because someone is right wing doesn't mean they're not a troll. Personally, I think Pat D is trolling, because he's talking through his ass, posting regularly and rapidly, strewn with factual inaccuracies (His denial that it is a regressive tax for example)
I often find Indymedia extremely boring because there isn't a righ wing voice on it, but simply because a right wing voice comes along, does not mean it is willing to, or trying to engage.
I'm happy to debate with the right, and have occasion to do so regularly, but there's no point engaging with trolls, whether left, right or third way.
Here in the Isle of Man, people are forever going on about there being a 100,000 people, bollox, it's only 70,000 and in the summer maybe 3,000 extra come for day trips and the motorbike racing.
We have lots of right wing people, some like really ultra, and no-one keeps an eye on them, and thanks to our position in the middle of the Irish Sea we have lots of marine and enviromental issues and off shore tax too.
anyway some of us "manX" want to set up a ManX indymedia and Janus you of Tory Island mythology come help us, we need editors, techlist, a moderator,(in some sunny place) and contributors.
15 posts on UK
20 posts on Barcelona.
5 posts on Italy.
12 posts on NYC.
and then there are like the posts on autonomedia and in the other names. yawn yawn.
I've recently heard about this site. I live in Fingal and am against the bin charges. I would be prepared to join in blockades next week. Have you got information on these?
and your defo not working for the Council eh!!
you should contact:
Ruth Coppinger (FABTC Secretary) at 087 673 0187
If the campaign has no support and everyone wants to pay the tax why is it that Joe and Clare could attract 500 to a rally while FG could only muster 7 or so at a counter picket? THis is despite the FG demo being publicised like mad all over the media?
and I do make sense, and you've hurt my feelings.
and I'm going to write to the Garda Hackers and ask them to put you all off line again. bastards.
meanwhile (whilst ye were off line) the proposal to pie Chomsky has been made, Chomsky has announced that he will launch a book at the Barcelona Forum of Cultures 2004 next year, and a "postrie" will be awaiting him.
i suppose that will piss some of you off.
and Mags is quite right- SF have never ever had a monopoly on Republicanism.
and those who think so can stick that kind of republic up their arses.
Sorry, apart from the bit about hurting your feelings, you're still making no sense whatsoever.
I assume most people will accept the ultimate aim of every (legitimate) campaign is to reduce waste, deal with existing waste responsibly and benefit the society we live in.
Why do these always have to come in the form of charges?
In the current system (which existe until we can bring about a change) taxation is a tool to regulate behaviour. The plastic bag tax helped reduce wasteful use of an unnecessary commodity.
Why not, instead of introducing fixed or even flexible charges for waste disposal, introduce a refundable tax on all packaging. 10 cents on each newspaper, plastic or glass bottle, cardboard box etc, refundable when these items are collected or made available for recycling. Or the tax could be a percentage of the value of the product for larger value purchases. The tax could be regulated trhough a bar code system. This system would not only stop individuals from littering, but provide a reward for those who are willing to clean up after those selfish enough to damage our environment. The tax would not be a burdon on the poor because it would be refundable and those who can afford to pay will be paying for the disposal of their packaging.
This tax could also be applied to commercial waste so that everybody would have an incentive to be responsible.
This level of recycling would ensure the viability of recycling plants, ensure a constant efficiant supply of raw materials and eliminate any need for horrific commercial incinerators
Please pie Chomsky. please!!
It would make me so happy to see him having an appointment with l'entarteur.
Please do it!!!!
I live in a town outside of dublin where once upon a time the council collected waste for free. You know we paid for it using something called PAYE. Anyhow, one day the county council in all it's wisdom decided to introduce a tax on collection, now some were peeved but the majority opinion here at the time was, well we have to pay for our waste. Grand so half a year or so went by when a little company called oxygen turn up and say, screw you council we're gonna offer these nice people bin collections at half your price. THe local towns people cheered as the price of bin collections went down. So the price stayed down for about say 2-3 months when all of a sudden the council stop collecting waste, yup they dont do it anymore, too lazy, no, i think there was something a little more sinister than that. See oxygen then said hey you guys can have a green bin for all your recycling needs but we need to charge the same as the black bin. Some people take it up others who cant afford it say no. Doesnt matter because 2-3 months later a 50% rise in the price of both bins meant alot more money going to oxygen. And so it continues to this day every 3-6 months another price rise. Oh, and if you want to leave an extra bag of rubbish outside then you'll have to buy a special oxygen bag from your local stores, any other bag wont be collected. What about a competition? Well the council gave up there bin collecting so, eh, erm, there is none. Cant wait for the re-introduction of water charges!!!
It's not going to be your usual "pie-ing", and I've been thinking about it for a while, and so will appreciate :
1. a short history of all pie-ings in the Spanish State.
2. info on Chomsky- does he have a heart condition?
3. sponser to get the day pass. they don't come cheap, and one might need to be bought well before hand.
4. good lawyer. perhaps better than usual.
5. lots of like "solidarity support".
6. a good number of digital cameras some with press accreditation.
7. do you think I had better write/telephone/fax him first :"Mr Chomsky I do admire your contribution, and universal grammar is one of the hottest things, and the attitude is cool, and Man you are an icon, but I have taken on myself to Pie you, is that ok?
please help me out, I'm in pre-spectacular neurosis.
More possible questions:
Does Mr Chomsky deserve a real home baked pie, or just the shaving foam paper plate low offense make believe?
....well...why???
is as we try to let people know being sponsered by arms dealers, brewers, sweatshop clothes shops and is being built at the expense of social housing and is prompting a city wide urban property bubble.
Chomsky has "blessed" this hypocrisy by agreeing to launch a product, to wit one book.
and I think Chomsky could do with the publicity.
He does actually respond to coherent emails you know. He may be unaware of the point you raise.
If this is done @all - it ought be done with proper anarcho-syndicalist legitamacy.
Then I have to check the legal status and background & I _do_ favour writing to him before hand, but if that may be interpreted as a "threat" than naturally I can't.
It's a bit silly, yet very serious, Chomsky is not a "saint" and yet he is, without his contribution to linguistics and the trickle down effect of that work, our global intellectual future would be much much worse. However the mass consumer/reader is unaware of that work and take Chomsky on different terms, the MIT head of Dept., the "Saint of the left", the "leader" of the "malcontents".
In a way he needs to be redeemed from his own agéd folly, and I'm the uncouth upstart who will gladly jump into the breech! pirates a go-go.
"¿pie or pi?"
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