Protest at Spire

by anonimùs Sun Jul 06, 2003 21:20

are they going to put a gigantic prophlactic over it and give it a couple of tugs till it rips and slides down the silvery 30 àdd metres?

by Mark O 'Hehir Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:23

Why don't you shut up and pay your taxes. Bloody opportunist professional whiners!

by Cat P Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:33

Pat, why didn't you put down an anti-bin tax motion at your union branch meeting?

by Pat C Mon Jul 07, 2003 12:09

The PSEU has appointed Garda Inspector George Maybury as Assistant General Secretary. Now Michael O'Brien, a leader of the SP, is on the Executive Committee of the PSEU, he is also leader of the PSEU left group.

This, the appointment of a cop as a trade union offical has happened on Michael O'Briens watch. M o'B has done nothing to organise the militant masses against this. He would have known of the appointment long before it was publically announced.

I think this proves my point that there is little point in being active in the PSEU. It one thing to have ICTU acting as a policeman to enforce partnership. Its another thing entirely to have a cop as a trade union official.

Or perhaps the SP are happy to have a "Worker In Uniform" as a Trade Union offical.

by Magneto Mon Jul 07, 2003 12:44

Garda Gets Inside The PSEU
In a shocking development, the Public Services Executive Union which represents managers in the Public Service has appointed a Garda as its Assistant General Secretary.
This move by the PSEU should send shivers down the spine of all workers. For too long Congress has been co-opted by the State and effectively polices the union movement to prevent any individual union s from breaking the terms of the wage deals.

Now we have a situation where a Garda Inspector, George Maybury will directly represent public Service Workers. He will have acces to information not just relating to the PSEU bit other public services unions plans to take strike actions, their tactics etc. Will anyone be surprised if the Gardai suddenly get access to plans and are able to organise reinforcements to prevent Mass Pickets or Blockades?

Most woorying abot this is the role played by the Socialist Party in appointment of Inspector Maybury. Michael O'Brien, National Committe member of the SP is a member of the Executive Committe of the Public Service Executives Union. He also is the convenor of a 'rank and file' group in the PSEU.

The Executive Committe of the PSEU is the body which would have appointed Inspector Maybury. Michael O'Brien as a member would have had advance knowledge of the appointment. Yet what has he done to oppose this obscenity? Neither he nor the SP as a Party have even spoken out publicly against it.

It is not too late for the SP to stand up against this latest disarming of the workers movement. Lets organise to show that there is no place for the Police in the Trade Unions.

by Sir Humphrey Mon Jul 07, 2003 13:01

Obviously the establishment is trembling at the thought that middle-ranking civil servants in the PSEU will take to the streets, erect barricades, put Government Buildinds to the torch and establish a Dublin Soviet in Hawkins House. This is quite clearly an attempt the dismantle the burgeoning civil service revolution from within.

HEOs of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your voicemail.

by Bernard Mon Jul 07, 2003 13:06

That Michael O'Brien chappie lost the run of himself thinking he could Bolshevise Bureaucrat!

by facts Mon Jul 07, 2003 13:37

PAt C is a member of the PSEU and he is NOT active in his union

MAgneto is a member of the LABOUR party which has brought in tax amnesties and social partnership.

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 13:45

I, who have more than 20 yrs experience as a union activist, gave up on the PSEU after 2 yrs. I felt I was wasting my time.

My cynicism has now been borne out.

If anyone has questions to answer here, it is Michael O'Brien of the PSEU. His silence speals volumes.

As does the fact that the best the SP can do is to send out anonymous fools to make childish attacks.

by Magneto Mon Jul 07, 2003 13:53

It is SP member Michael O'Brien who is in the hot seat. The attempts by the SP to introduce red herrings about tax amnesties will not work.

As for social partnership, I oppose it.

Now, why have Michael O'Brien and the SP not spoken out about the appontment of Garda Inspector George Maybury as Assistant General Secretary of the Public Service Executives Union?

All further attempts to dodge the question will just prove that the SP have something to hide.

by Venny Bean Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:02

Pat, I notice that you are dodging the questions regarding your hatred of English workers on another thread.

As for giving up on your union that is a disgrace quite frankly. Surely it is the role of socialists to work within even the most reactionary trade unions and try to reclaim them. Your giving up on the PSEU is an indication to the real level of commitment you have to the workers movement.

by Venny Bean Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:03

BTW
Michael O'Brien is not a member of the PSEU executive any longer

by Stephen Boyd - Socialist Party Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:06

Michael O'Brien is NOT a member of the executive committee of the PSEU. The Socialist Party does not support the appointment of George Maybury, not only because, as it seems, he is still a member of the police but also because we support the election of all full time negotiating union officials.
The portion of this story which refers to Michael O'Brien and the Socialist Party is not news - is it is pure invention and therefore should be removed.

by Assistant General Secretary Judge Dredd Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:11

Magneto has spoken. And so it is. And so it shall be.

by Mark O 'Hehir Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:20

The cops have their snout in the public service trough, what's the big deal?

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:21

Trying to introduce red herrings. I answered the anonymous SP fool on the other thread.

Michael O'Brien is the leader of the PSEU left group. I have suffered ongoing abuse from the fools of Tots 'n' Trots and the supposed adults of the SP because I was not actively involved in the PSEU.

Well, do you still think its worthwhile to be active in a managers union that has a Cop as Assistant general Secretary?

by Magneto Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:30

What is Stephen Boyd on about? Is he saying that Michael O'Brien is not a leader of the SP? Who are you trying to fool!

He was the SP representative on the IAWM Committee. Everyone knows that. Just as they know he is a leading member of the SP.

Recently the SP have being wailing about irrelevant topics being brought on to threads to attack them. Well what about Venry Bean bringing another topic on here?

The SP leadership of the PSEU Left have a lot to answer for regarding Maybury getting the job in the PSEU.

by Bronstein Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:31

Isnt the Socialist Party being a bit unfair loading all these duties on poor Steven Boyd. First he's in charge of their paper, next he's looking after relations with the SWP, then he has to look after the Youth section, now he has to defend the party on indymedia.

The amazing thing is that all through this hard work, coupled with his constant travels, he has retained his integrity, remaining true to his non-sectarianism and feminism. And no time to play!

by Mark - SP Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:31

The thrust of Magneto's attack on MOB was that he is a member of the PSEU executive, which he is not. Looks like the Anti-SP brigade have fallen flat on there faces again.
Would you like some egg with your waffle?

by Magneto Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:39

O'Brien is leader of the PSEU left. You have made a big thing of this. You even send out your less intelligent members to besmirch those who were not active in the PSEU.

The question is why did O'Brien not organise opposition to this move? Why didnt he even verbally oppose it? Why is it only now, having been exposed, are the SP opposing it?

Would the SP also cplease clarify their position.

Are they happy to have cops as union officials as long as they are elected?

by Durutti Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:48

They are now twisting and turning but they are well hooked. I have seen a lot of abuse on Indymedia directed towards Pat c because he was involved in Michel O Briens group in the PSUE.

Next we will hear that O Brien has nothing to do with the left group. I thoughjt I had heard it all but it now looks as if the SP are saying that O Briene isnt a leader of theirs.

Come on Stevie Stalin, whats the story? Surely you are not dropping Mivhael the way you did Lord Haugh Haugh when he became am embarrassment.

by Durutti Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:55

I should have said the SP abused Pat c because he was Not involved in Micheal O Briens PSEU group.

by IMC troll monitoring unit Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:59

I see that Magneto/Durruti are trolling again.

by Paddy Mon Jul 07, 2003 14:59

Magneto should have the cop (sorry, bad pun) to concede that in this case he was wrong. He simply cannot hold Michael O Brien or anyone on the left responsible for this appointment since there is no left winger on the PSEU executive.

Rather than come up with wild and patently untrue allegations Magneto should stick to points based in fact. The strongest critique of the SPs trade union work is that they put far too much store on winning over union leaderships and capturing key positions in unions. this leads them to neglect work at a grassroots level (though I dont mean the so-called 'rank and file' fronts favoured by the SWP).

Magneto often makes valid criticisms of the SP, but he is fatefully undermined by his membership of the Labour Party. Afterall, the conservative leaderships of almost all Irish trade unions are members of or linked to the Labour Party. Magneto can hardly attack the SP from the left, when he is a member of a social democratic party. As I out it to Magneto in another thread, make the break with the Labour Party and then your genuine critique of the SP will carry far more weight.

by iosaf Mon Jul 07, 2003 15:02

Homer nods??? Atlas shrugs??? jaysus. are we talking about the Simsons?
put's me in mind of Paddy Kavanagh...

by Jonno - SY Mon Jul 07, 2003 15:13

Again - neither Michael O'Brien nor any other member of the Socialist Party is on the executive of the PSEU. The Socialist Party is opposed to the appointment. Don't let fact get in the way of a good attack though, Pat.

by iosaf yesterday in the pursuit of humility used the false - name "anonimùs"- did you guess? there were 3 anonimuses yesterday. and i was one. Mon Jul 07, 2003 15:13

tis past the time and I reckon you'd like the chance to write some real news and lay off the eternal SP debacle.... or would you?

by Archivist Mon Jul 07, 2003 15:41

Can anyoen enlighten me on what the story is with Dermot Connolly? I always thought he was positioning himself as Joe Higgins's mentor. Why did he resign from the SP, is it part of some factional fight, or was he just pissed at getting nowhere, after nearly 30 years of frantic effort? And what is the poor man doing now?

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 15:47

The holier than thou attitude of the SP leave them open to criticism. I have got dogs abuse from the SP because I was not active in the PSEU.

I have given my reasons on many occasions but anonymous SP fools still even on this thread persist in attacking me for it. The SP claimed the PSEU was moving to the left yet the facts show something entirely different.

The SP having made activism in the PSEU a defining factor for Socialists, now have to explain why the SP led PSEU left group have not organised any opposition to the appointment of Maybury.

by Curious Mon Jul 07, 2003 15:50

First Dermot Connolly was purged from the post of General Secretary, then Domnic Haugh became an embarrassment to the SP over his support for the Shannon cops. Now they are dropping Michael O'Brien.

Soon they will deny that Dermot Connolly was ever a leader of the SP

by Peter Hadden Mon Jul 07, 2003 15:57

I have never heard of Dermot Connolly. He was never a member of the SP, never mind a leader with over 25 years experience, nor responsible for writing many of our key documents over that time. In fact, we waged a ceaseless struggle against his erroneous ideas. If you think it a contradiction to say we never heard of him but struggled against his ideas, it is because you are a vulgar empiricist, and use the categories of formal logic rather than dialectics.

We also never heard of Finn Geaney, Clem McCloskey, Norma Prendiville, Anton McCabe and Ted Grant.

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 15:57

Iosaf

i was attacked by the SP on this thread re not being active in PSEU. its only natural i would reply to it. if you are annoyed at the thread being derailed then take it up with the sp

jonno

Michael O'Brien is the leader and founder of the PSEU action group. I have gotten dogs abuse from the sp because i was nor active in this. the sp claimed that the PSEU was moving to the left.

the facts have now shown otherwise.

dont give me any crap about it not being the sp making these attacks. on the main thread about Maybury. people who are clearly sp are attacking me on this and reffering to debates about the sp federation policy on other threads.

the sp made a big thing about being active in the pseu.

therefore yopu must bear some responsibility for mayburys appointment.

by John Meehan Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:15

ignore this rubbish - begun with a useless story based on misinformation, conmpounded later by revolting personal abuse - indymedia should be ashamed of itself.

by Peter Hadden Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:18

I agree that most of the above postings are rubbish, but strongly object to my attempt at setting teh record straight regarding Dermot Connolly being described in these terms. I also intend to let it be known that if anyone comes on this site claiming I have a sense of humour I will sue them for slander.

by .being anonymous Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:18

just for one story and thread which as we all know is the quotidien update on the "bash the SP/PatC" thread.
if you take out all these stories, and all the silly unwanted photos, and all the press releases for parties no-one votes for, and all my comments and articles....what would you have left?

Seán and the gaeilge which ye can't understand!
& the links to WSM, and the effin great share boosting Starbucks coffee.
is that what you want?
is it?

i will never be ashamed.

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:20

The story is not garbage. It is true. The SP have made a big thing about Michael O'Brien and his left group in the PSEU. I have suffered sustained personalised abuse from the SP for months because I was not involved in this group.

The SP claimed that the PSEU was moving to the left and look at whats happened: A Policeman as Assistant General Secretary.

There are questions for the SP to answer on this , not least being
(i) why neither they nor Michael O'Brien even opposed Mayburys appointment until now.
(ii) Why the SP led PSEU action group havent organised opposition to Mayburys appointment.

by Magneto Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:38

A story regarding Inspector George Maybury being appointed as Assistant General Secretary of the PSEU has been deleted.
This story had one error. It claimed Michael O'Brien, leading member of the SP, was a member of the Executive Committe of the PSEU, Michael in fact has not been a member of the PSEU EC Since April. The Error is regretted

However the substance of the story was correct. Michael O'Brien is the leader of the PSEU Left Group. Up until today neither the SP nor Michael had condemned the appointment of a policeman as a a Trade Union Offical.

Nor has the SP led PSEU Left Group organised any action to oppose Mayburys appointment. The SP has made activity in this group a make or break issue for PSEU members who are Socialists. Indeed they have harrangued Pat c because he chose not to be active in the O'Brien group.

Given the stance of the SP and their claims that the PSEU was moving to the left, they should now reassess the effectiveness of their activity and the O'Brien group.

by Magneto Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:41

Just realised it was only moved! Still deserved to stay seperate! It was the SP who derailed the Bin Tax thread.

by Lev Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:43

Where to?

by IMC troll monitoring unit Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:52

How surprising! Magneto has just launched a new thread to continue throwing attacks at the SP! I'm just shocked. Shocked I tells ya.

by Last time ever on indymedia Mon Jul 07, 2003 16:57

This newsire has gone from the ridicolous to the outright vulgar. It makes no pretence any more to report or anyalyse. The personal attacks on ppl are absoloutly disgusting, the sad thing here is that undoubtedly this crap is carried out by a handful of people.

What a waste of a resource.

by IMC troll monitoring unit Mon Jul 07, 2003 17:00

And on they go!

Pat, Durutti and Magneto what would Indymedia Ireland be like without their wide ranging and perceptive commentary? Their open minds! The way they never let mere facts bog them down!

Losing their sterling contributions would tear the heart out of Indymedia. After all most of us only use the site so that they can tell us seventy three times a day that the Socialist Party murder babies in complicated satanic rituals. We would be unspeakably bored if any interesting thread was allowed to continue for more than a few minutes without being transformed into a discussion of the many wrongs of the SP.

by sidlebar Mon Jul 07, 2003 17:36

These endless elitist threads about the evils of the SP are swamping any decent debate on Indymedia, again the hard left wallow in their own ghetto and wonder why no one takes them seriously. Maybe these trollers should leave this crap in the pub (maybe walk to the pub lads seems like you could do with the fresh air.)

by Gaillimhed Mon Jul 07, 2003 18:07

OK guys ..hows about a SP debate site, so you guys can take off and 'settle' it (Ha ha ) without interference from moderately sane and terminally uninterested people.
I wonder, IMC editor types, could we give them a little link at the top of the page just for them, you know a sort of virtual home for these seething political moonies,

Polit-|cult.

by hs - sp Mon Jul 07, 2003 19:21

Here is what stephen boyd said "Michael O'Brien is NOT a member of the executive committee of the PSEU."

All the anonymous anti spers and poor pat c who i've lost all respect for, (its one thing for your fights with the 15 year olds, now you're just acting like a cretin) took this to mean that stephen said MOB is not a member of the SP. How? You're gone beyond ridiculas and really pathetic. Thank christ you're just sad individuals lost on computers.

by Pat C Mon Jul 07, 2003 19:23

Dont you think that the SP were acting as trolls over the last 6 months when they abused me because I wasnt in the great PSEU group led by their Glorious Leader Micharl O'Brien?

The net result of the radical activism of Michael O'Brien is to end up with a cop as Assistant General Secretary of the PSEU.

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 19:31

"All the anonymous anti spers and poor pat c who i've lost all respect for, (its one thing for your fights with the 15 year olds, now you're just acting like a cretin) "

15 yr olds? is stephen boyd a 15 yr old? are the other anonymous SPers 15 yrs old? is that who the SP send on to attack people these days?

How is anyone to know how old an anonymous opponent is?

the only way hs would know is if he was behind organising the attacks in the first place.


you are the cretin. I was abused for months by SP members because i was not active in O'Briens group.

Why has this group led by the SP done nothing about the Cop?

"took this to mean that stephen said MOB is not a member of the SP. How? You're gone beyond ridiculas and really pathetic."

No, Boyd said that the bit about Michael O'Brien and the SP were untrue , he wanted it deleted . Why?

"Thank christ you're just sad individuals lost on computers. "

Nope, we are people involved in real struggles, while you are sipping your cappacinos in italy and cheering on the orange order.

by Curious Mon Jul 07, 2003 19:34

The SP would support a Worker In Uniform getting a union job?

It could be a dry run for when they take power. After all their idea of Socialist Democracy is the USSR under Lenin and Trotsky. Unions banned, Labour militarised, Strikers shot.

Having a Policeman monitoring everything thats said in a union is a good start.

by iosaf - being contensios. like yiz. Mon Jul 07, 2003 19:36

contension.
ttp://www.proni.gov.uk/geogindx/parishes/par112.htm
like the real stuff.
and how do you unveil a spire????
anyone see?

by IMC troll monitoring unit Mon Jul 07, 2003 19:38

I repeat:

"Pat, Durutti and Magneto what would Indymedia Ireland be like without their wide ranging and perceptive commentary? Their open minds! The way they never let mere facts bog them down!

Losing their sterling contributions would tear the heart out of Indymedia. After all most of us only use the site so that they can tell us seventy three times a day that the Socialist Party murder babies in complicated satanic rituals. We would be unspeakably bored if any interesting thread was allowed to continue for more than a few minutes without being transformed into a discussion of the many wrongs of the SP."

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 19:47

Why did you never object to the SP attacking me because I wasnt active in the PSEU action group led by the SP leader MIchael O'Brien?

Do you not think the SP have questions to answer now?

Your idea of whats trolling is rather one-sided.

SP abuse everyone else - Good!
Anyone respond to SP abuse - BAD!

by hs - sp Mon Jul 07, 2003 19:50

I have't been on this sites for months, the last time I was around you were having fights with sy members. Who sounded basically like kids. And sy youth are mainly secondry school students. You throw out insults left right in centre but if someone answers back you say you're being oppressed. You think the sp as a party decided to attack pat c on the internet? Thats just a little egotistic.

Every thread on indymedia is dominated by you personally attacking the sp usually you start it as soon as possible and comrades answer the bait. That is practically every thread. Its gone beyond ridicuals, don't know what happened in the last few months but you may have noticed a few complaints. The point I made before stands, stephen siad one thing and you didn,t even twist it you completely changed it. Just look up the thread. Makes it very difficult to take it seriously,

As for your other comment, now are you against people who emigrate now, the greatest betrayal against irishness isn't it. Well excuse me but in my life this is how it ended up. I can live where I choose. And you may not have heard but there is a small left movement in Italy too. Where I am the RC who I'd be close to recently one a seat on the local council and so did the italian communists. And there has been a continuing mass anti war movement running here. Amonst alot of other things. We also have a anti facist movement here, Fourza Nouva the very rich neo nazi movement won 3,000 votes in the same election. At these movements the communists and anarchists and independents generally get on don't see why you have to pick a figt once every 15 minutes.

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:02

"have't been on this sites for months, "

lies tats what you say all the time. you are always on this site.

"the last time I was around you were having fights with sy members. Who sounded basically like kids. "

i have no idea of how old the sp members who use indy are. now someone in the sp thinks it was a good idea to continually hassle me about not being active in the PSEU, to say the PSEU was moving left, and to eulogise Michael O'Brien

i think its unlikely that 15 yr olds were behind this.

"You think the sp as a party decided to attack pat c on the internet? Thats just a little egotistic."

no, you slander anyone who disagrees with you. even your ex members.

"Every thread on indymedia is dominated by you personally attacking the sp usually you start it as soon as possible and comrades answer the bait. That is practically every thread."

rubbish, the sp attack everything they disagree with. every labour sf etc thread is attacked.



"The point I made before stands, stephen siad one thing and you didn,t even twist it you completely changed it. Just look up the thread. Makes it very difficult to take it seriously, "

stephen said the stuff about Michael O'Brien and the SP was untrue. Let Boyd explain what he meant.

"As for your other comment, now are you against people who emigrate now, the greatest betrayal against irishness isn't it."

You are an asshole. only a moron like you would try and read that into a comment about cappucino.
what a cretin!

" At these movements the communists and anarchists and independents generally get on don't see why you have to pick a figt once every 15 minutes. "

its the sp who pick fights with everyother group.

by hs - sp Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:07

"Michael O'Brien is NOT a member of the executive committee of the PSEU. The Socialist Party does not support the appointment of George Maybury, not only because, as it seems, he is still a member of the police but also because we support the election of all full time negotiating union officials.
The portion of this story which refers to Michael O'Brien and the Socialist Party is not news - is it is pure invention and therefore should be removed"

This is excatly what stevie said, where did it say MOB is not a member of the SP and that we are denying him. Point it out please! This is what was claimed straight afterwards,

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:11

"The portion of this story which refers to Michael O'Brien and the Socialist Party is not news - is it is pure invention and therefore should be removed"


it looks as if i wasnt the only one to think that meant that MOB was not a SP leader. Obviously most of the part of the story which reffered to MOB and the SP was correct.

MOB leads the PSEU left group, this group did nothing to oppose Mayburys appointment. Until today neither O'Brien or the SP had even said anything about it.

by hs - sp Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:18

"have't been on this sites for months, "

lies tats what you say all the time. you are always on this site."

No pat its not. I was regularly on this site after xmas and then stayed away for along time. Because I was busy. Now I am on holidays so I have time.

"i have no idea of how old the sp members who use indy are. now someone in the sp thinks it was a good idea to continually hassle me about not being active in the PSEU, to say the PSEU was moving left, and to eulogise Michael O'Brien"

Well pat judging by the comments and the arguments it was very obvious. And the fact that they were Socialist youth. I didn't see any abuse for not being active in your union. send me to the thread. if its abuse I'm on your side.

"no, you slander anyone who disagrees with you. even your ex members."

Who have we slandered and how, unless you mean stupid insults like let's say: "You are an asshole." This is all you pat, you complain about abuse but really this is where you always are in the end.

"rubbish, the sp attack everything they disagree with. every labour sf etc thread is attacked."

Nothing compared to the one man 24 campaign though is it pat. We don't ATTACK everything we disagree with. We say it, don't use words like "moran" and "asshole" though. Thats the difference. I'll admit some SY kids can be a bit well like 15 year olds sometimes. But pat they are 15. I've taken parts in lots of debates here without attacking anyone. its possible



"The point I made before stands, stephen siad one thing and you didn,t even twist it you completely changed it. Just look up the thread. Makes it very difficult to take it seriously, "

stephen said the stuff about Michael O'Brien and the SP was untrue. Let Boyd explain what he meant.

but you're not saying anything here, on the thread it said stephen was denying mob was in the sp. he wasn't. The rest because of this ridiculas line is hard to believe.



"You are an asshole. only a moron like you would try and read that into a comment about cappucino.
what a cretin!"

and you constantly complain about personal abuse, lets see it, asshole, moron and cretin. People in glass houses

by hs - sp Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:21

a couple of questions, serious questions.

Was the appointment known in advance by anyone?

and

Did anyone else oppose the appointment.

and did the sp support the appointment anywhwere.

is it simply a case of caught napping and if so was it only the sp?

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:26

in normal circumstances it might be a case of caught napping. but the sp have gone on and on about how the PSEU was moving to the left. i was continupously criticised for not being active in the PSEU aleft group.

if you build up something like this then you must expect criticism when the group is found wanting.

i am not aware of anyone else organising opposition. Remember though we are talking about the PSEU left group not the failings of anyone else.

this appointment has been known for a couple of weeks now but this group has neither criticised the appointment nor organised any opposition.

by pat c Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:30

your constant lieing about how often you are on the site fools no one.

as for insults, am not allowed to respond to you in kind? you suggest i am against emigrants because i make a remark about you sipping cappucino . you take the biscuit.

as for 15 yr olds, i repeat how can anyone know how old an anonymous opponent is?

it would be a great tactic for the sp to send on 15 yr olds to attack people and then say no one had the right to respond.

by Just wondering Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:46

Pat C, I was just wondering, are you sure the SP would want you active in the PSEU. After all, if you were active in the PSEU, they would have to deal with you there as well. I think they are probably grateful that you are not.

Given the fact that you have decided not to be active in the PSEU, then you are hardly in a position to criticise those that are. If you had made the effort then maybe you would have been in a position to prevent this appointment taking place.

by hs - sp Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:50

"your constant lieing about how often you are on the site fools no one."

Pat I know how often I'm on the site, I don't have a computer I go to a cafe to come on I can't afford to be on it as much as you think. And I've been away for months, really every once in a while this is fun but not everyday.

"as for insults, am not allowed to respond to you in kind? you suggest i am against emigrants because i make a remark about you sipping cappucino . you take the biscuit."

well I took sitting in Italy sipping capacino as meaning I shouldn't be here. Thats what it sounded like. or i don't have the right to be part of the debate because i'm not in the country. how would it sound to you?


"as for 15 yr olds, i repeat how can anyone know how old an anonymous opponent is?"

can't always but come on. For example look on the thread on the orange order. RED 1913 I would guess is quite young. and fight with him but don't take heart. Look how andrew replied, made an excellent argument and didn't say asshole once.

"it would be a great tactic for the sp to send on 15 yr olds to attack people and then say no one had the right to respond. "

It would be pat if I believed we could be arsed going to such trouble to argue with you. Fight away with them I don't care just don't go round compalaining you're being oppressed and the sp are after you.

by hs - sp Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:54

I don't know about the critisim, to me i would find it amazing you would be able to work with the sp. You don't like us.

But if people were critical of you not being involved and then it was shite, fair enough take your revenge.

Then again though if you'd been involved maybe you could have prevented it. You critise them for doing nothing but pat you didn't do anything either... the solution join it and sort it out!

by CONTETSHUSSZ Mon Jul 07, 2003 20:56

Eircom do good rates?

try this.
use Oscailt 4 our wonderful Irish system.
(by the way indymedia watchers, Barcelona has just migrated to a new DADA system).
type
"Pat C" or "SP" into the search engine.
see what you get.

now for those who like their imc irland to have at least a wee bit of newsworthyness I'm going to resolve the Drumcree problem in the next 30 minutes.

by venny bean Tue Jul 08, 2003 02:20

If anyone wants to see how pat tries to justify his hatred of the English working class and his stalinist ideas of socialism in one country follow the link below

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60190#comment39608

by Sidlebar Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:18

Can HS and Pat C please swap e-mail address's then fuck off and have their bitch fight somewhere else this newswire is for EVERYONE and no one else is interested in your little tiff.

by sidlebar Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:41

I suggest that Pat gets active in his own Trade Union before he starts lecturing others about Trade Union work.

by The Real Sidlebar Tue Jul 08, 2003 13:35

I only made one comment, the one telling Pat C & HS to take it elsewhere, I don't give a crap what Pat C does as long as he keeps it elsewhere

by The REAL real sidlebar Tue Jul 08, 2003 14:19

I'm sidlebar and so's my wife!

by iosaf Tue Jul 08, 2003 15:10

Cut and Paste the following line into the search engine at the left of your ireland indymedia screen.
Pat C. v. SP
or if you prefer you may C&P this following line:
SP v. Pat C.

see what you get?
exactly.
nuf said.

now try C&P this line:

did orangemen invent northern ireland?

into the usual search engines.
cool eh?

by pat c Tue Jul 08, 2003 16:37

there was no point in being involved in the pseu. the sp talked up up the pseu action group.

look at whats happened: a cop as assistant general secretary.


you are making an ass of yourself by harping on about the cappucino. cut backon the espressos will ya?

have you forgotten that you called me a cretin first?

i see that fool benny/venny is still derailing the thread. i havemade my views clear. i disagree with your ideas of federation.read the relevant threads.

the sp are no different from stalinists. stephen boyd believes communism achieved its peak in the ussr under lenin & trotsky (thats what he says on the federation thread).

what happened in those days?

all opposition parties banned.
all factions in THE PARTY banned.
trade unions banned
labour militarised
strikers shot
anarchists shot
left socialist revolutionaries shot.

You have some idea of democracy.

Well I look forward to helping you out in the euros & locals next year.i'llbring your policies about the federation and the North and your idea of democracy to the attention of a wider public.

i have a good record at negative campaigning.

ASK ADI ROCHE

looking forward to it

by Durutti Tue Jul 08, 2003 16:56

Dont let the fuckers get you down. By destroying the SP vote you will be carrying out important Libertarian work. You wont even have to tell any lies. Just expose the politics they hide on the doorsteps of Mulhuddart and Swords.

The latest I hear about PSEU is that its a straight swap.The Gardai were so happy with Michael O Briens article on Evian praising the cops, they have recruited him as editor of the Garda Review. Thats how Maybury got the job in the PSEU.

by VB Tue Jul 08, 2003 16:59

Pat there will be no need to tell the electorate our programme regarding international socialism. It will be proudly written in all our manifestoes which will be widely available (as it was in the last elections). Unlike other parties and groups in the workers movement the SP does not hide its politics from people.

Pat who will you be supporting in the next elections if the SP are not for you? Will you be supporting SF or the Labour Party? Parties that are pro capitalist.

Pat, it is extremely arrogant to claim that you alone were responsible for Adi Roches awful presidential election.

There is a point in being active in the PSEU and it is the duty of all socialists to be active in their unions no matter how backward or reactionary they are, in an upturn in struggle many members of the PSEU will look toward their union to lead it. When this happens socialists should be there among the workers to explain their programme and the flaws in reformism etc. Declaring the PSEU as inheritantly reactionary is ultra left and incorrect and will only distance yourself from workers.

Stevie Boyd never said that communism was achieved in the USSR. What existed at best in the USSR was a workers state with bureacratic deformations which then degenerated when a bureacracy emerged at put itself above workers following the failure of the revolution to spread to western Europe. The SP did not support the bureacracy in the USSR and do not support the deformations that existed while Lenin and Trotsky were in power, what the SP does defend is the massive gains brought about by the revolution.

by VB Tue Jul 08, 2003 17:02

Durrutti you are pathetic. The SP has never concealed its politics in elections. Surely it is the LAbour Party (who you are a member of) that hides its politics. At election time particularly in working class areas they will calim to be the party of the working class etc but whenn in power they implement openly pro capitalist neo liberal policies. The same goes for SF.

by pat c Tue Jul 08, 2003 17:14

"Pat there will be no need to tell the electorate our programme regarding international socialism. It will be proudly written in all our manifestoes which will be widely available (as it was in the last elections). "

Nope. You will hide the federation of the british isles stuff, you willhide your support for the Orange Orders right to march through nationalist areas. You certainly wont say that you think North Korea is a (deformed) Workers State.

"Pat who will you be supporting in the next elections if the SP are not for you? Will you be supporting SF or the Labour Party? Parties that are pro capitalist."

No,as a libertarian i wont be supporting any party.

"Pat, it is extremely arrogant to claim that you alone were responsible for Adi Roches awful presidential election."

i claim no such thing, but i did play a role in exposing her nasty side to the public gaze. that was enough to start the edifice crumbling. Looking forward to next year!

"There is a point in being active in the PSEU and it is the duty of all socialists to be active in their unions no matter how backward or reactionary they are,"

That is the opinion of the SP, it is not a law of nature. In any case I feelthat Mayburys appointment has proved me right. Why amI not allowed to disagree with you?

"Stevie Boyd never said that communism was achieved in the USSR."

This what Boyd said:

"the USSR before the Stalinist Thermidor when a bureaucratic caste ceased power and eliminated democracy, was a socialist federation which provides us with the best model (so far) for how various socialists states can work together. "

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60190&results_offset=90

So, the best model? Shot strikers,militarised labour and all?

by Jock Tue Jul 08, 2003 17:15

Sounds like you might know who 'durruti' is. Do tell!

by Durutti Tue Jul 08, 2003 17:19

I aman Anarchist who hate you Trot bastards. Just wait till the Black Bloc comes totown.

by Patrick Tue Jul 08, 2003 17:21

.......... because he must be one of the 15 year old SPY members if Pat C could demolish him so easily.


Time for Joe to give him a lift home.

by Daithi Tue Jul 08, 2003 17:38

..but I will. Pat, what did you do to Adi Roche?

by AntiMagneto Tue Jul 08, 2003 19:55

Wrong again Pat C - the Socialist Party has put its position on a socialist Ireland linked to a socialist federation with Scotland, England and Wales on our manifestos in every election we have ever stood in. Also I challenge you to attend our open public election meetings during the campaign and as you claim it inform the voters of our real politics - you will then expose yourself for what you really are - an irrelevant eccentric!

by VB Wed Jul 09, 2003 02:57

"Nope. You will hide the federation of the british isles stuff, you willhide your support for the Orange Orders right to march through nationalist areas. You certainly wont say that you think North Korea is a (deformed) Workers State."

It is not the SP's position for a federation of the British Isles the SP's position is clearly for a socialist federation on a FREE VOLUNTARY AND EQUAL basis between England,Scotland , Ireland and Wales as part of a Eurpopean socialist federation. This is the position it is not hidden at election time or at any time, it has been in the SP's paper and publications all the time and is in our election manifestoes. The SP position on the Orange Order is also clear and is not hidden. The OO are a right wing, biggoted and reactionary organisation however it would be wrong to classify them a fascist. Fascism for Marxists is quite a distinct thing. As for North Korea, generally this does not come up at elections but if it ever did the SP does not hide the position, read the parties publications. The SP do not support the bureacracy in North Korea, the Sp call for a workers political revolution in North Korea and the establishment of a workers democracy. What the SP do defend is the state owned and planned nature of the economy. I would presume most socialists and left wing people would too. Unless Pat you wish to see the state owned assets of North Korea to be sold off to US multinationals?


"No,as a libertarian i wont be supporting any party."

Fair enough but if you don't support any party why are there pics of you holding SF placards at the anti war demos?

"That is the opinion of the SP, it is not a law of nature. In any case I feelthat Mayburys appointment has proved me right. Why amI not allowed to disagree with you?"

It is the opinion of the SP because we believe it to be true. Maybury's appointment does indeed show that the PSEU is not the most progressive and left wing union but you can't blame the left wingers in the PSEU for that. And it does not mean that in an upsurge in the class struggle that the memebers of the PSEU will be radicalised and will attempt to reclaim their union. You are of course free to disagree with me, that is not in question at all.

Durutti - "I aman Anarchist who hate you Trot bastards. Just wait till the Black Bloc comes totown"

Is that some kind of threat? Are you going to attack SP members and supporters on demos? If so you really are quite pathetic. The majority anarchists will have nothing to do with your plans and would be outraged at the suggestion that people should attack another part of the workers movement regardless of the political differences that would exist.


AS for pat 'exposing' the SP at election time, I say bring it on! come to the public meeting that are organised at election time and put forward your differences and lets see what people make of themm in a real non virtual debate.

by Phuq Hedd Wed Jul 09, 2003 06:10

QUOTE:
Durutti - "I aman Anarchist who hate you Trot bastards. Just wait till the Black Bloc comes totown"

Is that some kind of threat? Are you going to attack SP members and supporters on demos? If so you really are quite pathetic. The majority anarchists will have nothing to do with your plans and would be outraged at the suggestion that people should attack another part of the workers movement regardless of the political differences that would exist.

ANSWER:
The likelihood is that "Durutti" is not an anarchist, but instead is someone seeking to discredit the label by behaving like a moron. Hmm...who could that be?

Having been away from Indymedia for a while it is strange to return and find that although the site has improved (both in the software and the features) there is still a considerable amount of effort invested in the pro/anti SP debate in a manner which does _nothing_ to promote either their immediate critics or themselves.

Is anyone going to write a report on what happened at the Spire?

by pat c Wed Jul 09, 2003 11:15

"It is not the SP's position for a federation of the British Isles the SP's position is clearly for a socialist federation on a FREE VOLUNTARY AND EQUAL basis between England,Scotland , Ireland and Wales as part of a Eurpopean socialist federation. "

Too many of you keep referring to Britain. But ok. Why not just agree to disagree. You think its a great idea. I have reservations. This does not mean that I am a nationalist or stalinist who believes in socialism in one country.

You were the person who dragged it on to this thread.



" The SP position on the Orange Order is also clear and is not hidden. The OO are a right wing, biggoted and reactionary organisation however it would be wrong to classify them a fascist. Fascism for Marxists is quite a distinct thing. "

Actually you are right there. It is going over the top to call them fascist. But again I disagree with your attitude towards their right to march.

It should be possible to disagree with the SP position on the North without being called: a nationalist, catholic nationalist, anti-protestant.

" Unless Pat you wish to see the state owned assets of North Korea to be sold off to US multinationals?"

Why do you have to make an idiot of yopurself at the end of a well argued paragraph?

"Fair enough but if you don't support any party why are there pics of you holding SF placards at the anti war demos?"

Oh dear. I deliberately carried that placard around all night in the hope that I would be pictured and appear on Indymedia and confirm your worst fears about me. In fact there were no pictures, but someone still posted to indy about me carrying the poster.

The fact that you are still raising it shows how well I succeeded in getting at you. You now believe in non-existent pictures! ( But if you do have any such snaps, please post them on indy. Its bound to enrage the brit lovers.)
"It is the opinion of the SP because we believe it to be true. Maybury's appointment does indeed show that the PSEU is not the most progressive and left wing union but you can't blame the left wingers in the PSEU for that. "

But it happened despite their activism.

" You are of course free to disagree with me, that is not in question at all."

Why then do the SP keep raising my decision not to be active in the PSEU?

You are responsible for Maybury becoming an issue on Indymedia.

On a totally unrelated thread you trolled about me not being involved in the PSEU. Enough was enough. I responded re Maybury.

Magneto then picked this up and made it into an article.

If you had not been trolling then this would never have been an issue on Indymedia.

I would rather drop this here, but if the SP continue to troll about me and the PSEU then on each occasion I will repond re the Maybury issue.

If this continues then it will be due to SP trolling.

I agree with you re Durutti. His threats are wrong. But so are your (written) attacks on the Black Block.

"AS for pat 'exposing' the SP at election time, I say bring it on! come to the public meeting that are organised at election time and put forward your differences and lets see what people make of themm in a real non virtual debate."

No point in going to a meeting of SP members. But it should be worythwhile pointing the media towards your dissident ex members. Professor Denis Tourish, would make a big impact. I have also being saving the wilder defences of your internal regime which have appeared on Indymedia. ;)

by Michael O'Brien - SP/PSEU Wed Jul 09, 2003 13:46

I find I'm headline news over George Maybury's appointment as AGS of PSEU. The author of the piece was one "Magneto" who I gather is a Labour Party member. His accusations about my supposed compliance and inaction on Maybury's appointment are echoed by Pat Corcoran and supplemented by more general points about the state of the PSEU which are more worthy of discussion and I intend to take them up too.

In terms of the facts. I lost my place on the Executive of the union by .263 of a vote at the conference this year thanks in part to a campaign run against me by the right wing not to mention belonging to one of the smallest branches in the union. The deadline for applications for the AGS vacancy was about a week AFTER the ADC. An interview panel of five was appointed by the Executive and I assume they brought their recommendation to the newly composed executive who rubber stamped it. So I had no prior knowledge of Maybury's appointment and am disgusted at what has happened as are other left leaning activists.

If it is the case that Pat Corcoran picked up on Maybury's appointment from the current issue of the union's magazine he will also have seen a photo of myself from the conference with a caption
describing me as an OUTGOING member of the Executive and yet Pat repeated Magneto's erronious statement that I'm still serving on the Executive.

The other main accusation thrown against me and other left leaning activists is that Maybury's appointment has gone unopposed. My question to Magneto and Pat is how do you know it has gone unopposed? If activists want to seriously raise it as an issue why would they go to indymedia first? No they would raise it in their branch and try and get support their first and then come next years conference oppose his ratification. By the way Pat my work number and e-mail address are in the union's year book in the branch officers section. Why don't you drop me a line if you want an explanation or insight of what actiivists in the PSEU are doing rather than rushing to indymedia?

Pat's real grievance is that some SP members are giving him a hard time over his choice to not to be active in the union. What I'll say to my own comrades is that your not going to convince Pat to reactivate himself by slagging him. Pat goes on to give his reasons for inactivity. He begins by arguing against by what he sees as a false estimation by myself and the SP and by implications other left leaning activists regarding the state of the PSEU as a union.

However other than a brief report I gave in the Voice newspaper of the recent conference I don't know the basis upon which Pat can form an opinion of where I think the PSEU is at. It's about two years since I've spoken directly to Pat about the union (upstairs in the Bachelor, we used to get along cordially years ago!). The key positive point that was made in that article was that the conference this year was defined by the executive being overturned on a number of important motions that were well argued by left leaning activists including the future profiling of candidates for elected positions; the inclusion of pro and con arguement on ballot papers in future pay deals and a rule change democratizing the filling of causual vacancies in the Standing Orders Committee.

So if you were to ask my opinion about were the PSEU is at I would say there indications are contradictory in the sense that the establishment have gone virtually unchallanged for years and there has tradionally been a low level of struggle. Yet where debates have taken place, at conferences and some branches, those on the anti social partnership side have often prevailed. Another recent conference saw the Exec hammered on the issue of bin charges and the arguements in favour of non payment put by myself and others previaled. By no means though are we at the stage where the broad sweep of members see what I and others represent as a viable alternative but the debate is at a very early stage. In terms of elections for positions and challanging officials those of us on the left have a long way to go. Incidently a good activist from Enterprise Trade and Employment brought a motion limiting the tenure of officials to conference but unfortunatly it was ruled out of order because it wasn't worded as a rule change.

The impression that has been given elsewhere in the debate that the PSEU is made up entirely of cosseted middle ranking civil servants who don't view themselves as workers is off the mark. Many may well do see themselves in that light but the majority of members at the Executive Officer level are on wages broadly comparable with what you would get in a unionised factory job ranging from the mid twenties to mid thirties thousands of Euro. The wage scale is close to that of the Staff Officer grade which is represented by the more vibrant CPSU.

Many including you Pat have gone through the experience of being in the CPSU and have a good idea of what a union should aspire to be and see the PSEU as sadly wanting on a number of fronts. It certainly has not proven automatic that those who were active in the CPSU maintain their activity on entering the PSEU but what was demonstrated at this years confernce is that some have and I thinks that is positive and worth building upon and in that sense your decision to opt out of activity is a mistake but we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

The final point I want to raise for all you regular readers and contributors to indymedia is that this spat over the Maybury affair is illustrative of a deliberatly sloppy and adverserial approach to issues in the movement by a number of mainly anonymous people which doesn't seek to clarify issues but make us all look stupid. I and others I'm sure don't have the time or inclination to answer every single accusation posted on this site. That in mind I would simply urge people to read SP material and if you are serious about getting clarification on this or that issue why not contact us directly, come to SP meetings etc

by pat c Wed Jul 09, 2003 14:07

"Pat's real grievance is that some SP members are giving him a hard time over his choice to not to be active in the union. What I'll say to my own comrades is that your not going to convince Pat to reactivate himself by slagging him."

I am glad that you are taking this position. This Maybury affair would never have appeared on Indtmedia if it was not for the actions of SP members.

Last Sunday, on a totally unrelated thread, a SP member yet again raised the PSEU and my inactivity in same. Enough was enough. If its legitimate for your members (over a period of six months) to raise this then its legitimate for me to raise your involvement.

" Pat goes on to give his reasons for inactivity. He begins by arguing against by what he sees as a false estimation by myself and the SP and by implications other left leaning activists regarding the state of the PSEU as a union. "

The false estimations have been raised by your members who have hounded me and claimed that the PSEU was moving to the left.

I actually thought you were still on the PSEU EC.

If relations are no longer cordial between us then it is due to tour members activities on Indymedia. It is not possible to disagree with the SP withot being called: mad, crazy, nationalist, catholic-nationalist, fascist, stalinist, obbsessed because i was dumped by a SP member etc etc.

You might not be so cordial if you had gone through this. I found it possible to work with the SP in many campaigns in the past. This was because the SP members did not carry on in the sectarian way that Oisin, Finghin, Brian Cahill, Mark etc do on Indymedia.

The Maybury affair would never have cropped up on Indymedia if it was not for SP trolling.

by Michael O'Brien - SP/PSEU Wed Jul 09, 2003 14:26

Pat, you know I have publically opposed personal abuse and anonymous postings from ALL quarters on several occasions. To my own comrades I'd say that it is unfortunatly the case that Pat is in good company in terms of former CPSU heads who aren't yet convinced of the case to be active in the PSEU so cool your heads!

However Pat you haven't really addressed some of the more substantial points I have raised about where the union is at. Maybe you want more time to consider it.

Do you also accept that the substance of Magneto's accusatons are unfounded? I sometimes think your rage at being slagged gets the better of you leading you to back up the likes of Magneto when a bit of investigaton and picking up the phone and talking to me might be a better way to go.

by pat c Wed Jul 09, 2003 14:39

"Pat, you know I have publically opposed personal abuse and anonymous postings from ALL quarters on several occasions. To my own comrades I'd say that it is unfortunatly the case that Pat is in good company in terms of former CPSU heads who aren't yet convinced of the case to be active in the PSEU so cool your heads!"

Yet the abuse goes on. I took it for months before I responded in this manner.

"the more substantial points I have raised about where the union is at. Maybe you want more time to consider it. "

Look I gave the PSEU 2 yrs, I have better things to do with my time. I am not going to now get invoved with a union that has a cop as an official.

"Do you also accept that the substance of Magneto's accusatons are unfounded?"

I think Magneto went over the top. But I am not aware of any opposition to Mayburys appointment even verbal being organised.

It was the SP who was responsible for this appearing on Indymedia.

I responded to an attack, Magneto picked it up and embellished it.

You might look at the tone and content of your attacks on labour. It might explain why Magneto makes his forays.

by John Brown Wed Jul 09, 2003 14:49

I used to know Dermot Connolly. He was General Secretary of the SP. Is he still around?

by Kevin McLoughlin Wed Jul 09, 2003 14:51

I never heard of a Dermot Connolly. I have been General Secretary for the last fifteen tears. Are you sure you have the right party? Could he be amember of the SWP?

by IMC troll monitoring unit Wed Jul 09, 2003 16:28

Amazing a debate on Indymedia which ended with more light than heat! Still our anonymous troll friends wouldn't want things to stay that way so we got some impersonations at the end. Oh how much the likes of Durutti add to this site!

by pat c Wed Jul 09, 2003 17:58

I hope you would agree that trolling by the SP is also unacceptable. As has been pointed out, the Maybury episode would never have appeared on Indymedia if it was not for the action of a SP troll on another thread. I am sure you would also agree that the SP were trolling by bringing the Federation debate on to this thread.

I agree that the stuff about Stephen Boyd is crap. While I disagree with Durutti and his threats, if you say he was trolling then so were some SP members.

by pat c Wed Jul 09, 2003 18:36

Sorry, I forgot to get back to you. I merely distributed some materiel which pointed journalists in the right direction. Made them aware of some facts and what questions they should ask.

i was assisting the dissidents who had, to varying degrees , been shafted by Roche.

When someone is exposed to media scruitiny from a previously unexplored angle , then the consequences can be devastating. Suddenly expulsions, sackings etc appear in a totally new light.

Overreactions also help. Dick Spring raved about letters denigrating Roche being placed in TDs pigeon holes in Leinster House. (Hey, I didnt have that much power!) This story was carried on the front page of the Irish Times.

After an investigation by Dail Staff, Springs claim was found to be without foundation. After that the Times were more cautious towards the Roche camp.

Roche was and is a nasty piece of work.Spring wasnt an innocent abroad. Some of the people treated badly by Roche were based in Kerry North. He just thought it woulnt be an issue.

Labour should have chosen David Norris as a candidate. Do it this time!

As the post of president is largely symbolic, I think Anarchists (and Trotskyists) should CONSIDER backing a progressive candidate whose election would be a blow against the Roman Catholic Church and the Old Guard Right.


Daithi, can you oblige bygetting Norris selected as candidate? ;)

by Hal Silk Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:39

Just noticed a poster advertising the SP/SY summer school. A nice gel Helen Sell is attending from the 'Socialist Party England and Wales'.

If you believe in Self Determination for Wales why do you not even allow them have a seperate party?