Smith welcomes Isreali 'scientists' to Roscrea

by Are you a racist. Wed Feb 19, 2003 13:10

Do you not like Americans or Israelis. Are you a racist anti-semitic? If you are, you will find you have plenty of friends on IndyMedia.

by Cathal Wed Feb 19, 2003 13:58

we should not fall into the trap of labelling people by their nationality. Just because a person is isreali or american does not mean they are pro-colonialism, by lumping people together as you do you form a stereotype, and a stereotype is not a true representation of any culture or society... are all irish alcoholics, lazy, backward? they are if you believe what the victorians said.

by pat c Wed Feb 19, 2003 14:04

As long as the Israelis occupy Palestine they should not be welcome. There ongoing campsaign of genocide was vividly illustrated by the tank invasion of Gaza City and killing of 11 Palestinians.

Why no sanctions against the Terrorist State of Israel? When can we expect a "coalition of the willing" to bomb Tel Aviv?

by Daithi Wed Feb 19, 2003 14:06

This is disgusting; is a scientist from Israel automatically suspicious because of nationality? or of religion? or because you don't like Israel's political leadership?

You don't sound like an anti-war activist at all. Like George W. and the Iraqis, they're all the same to you.

by pat c Wed Feb 19, 2003 14:16

its legitimate to suggest boycotts of countries who act in a racist manner; as israel does towards the palestinians. boycotts of south africa may well also have affected liberal/left south africans, but that was hardly a reason for dropping the boycott.

by Micil Wed Feb 19, 2003 14:39

I abhor what Israel is doing to Palestinians. But many Israeli's haven't a clue as to what their Government is really about (Colonial Expansion).
There are many Israeli Jews who understand the score are are trying to stop the settlements.
Therefore one shouldn't categorise all Israelis as a generic bunch of bastards. Many aren't

by Daithi Wed Feb 19, 2003 16:50

Pat I wasn't talking about you I was talking about the original post - which I don't think is about boycotts, that's a separate issue.

He is basically doubting that the Israelis are "scientists", even putting it in inverted commas.

That kind of attitude is wrong - by anyone, against anyone. It is no different to the American conservatives who are automatically suspicious of Muslim workers and professionals and even people from "Islamic states". In my book, that's a horrible ignorance of the inherent dignity and autonomy of a human being - and we rightly criticise the American government and right-wingers when they say that racial,ethnic or national profiling is necessary at borders, for example. It has nothing to do with boycotts and everything to do with your attitude to your fellow human beings.

by pat c Wed Feb 19, 2003 17:25

Point taken.

Some "research scientists" are just scientists!

Maybe his formulation is just a bit clumsy though.

by To Pat C Wed Feb 19, 2003 21:16

A question Pat C (who once had the idiocy back in December to state that he didn't believe the IRA or FARC were terrorist organisation - merely "legitimate" freedom fighters, ha ha ha):

I can understand your point about boycotting Isreal. Will you be also boycotting Palestine/Palestinians? Considering their ongoing policy of targetting and murdering innocent Israeli civilians, they would deserve to be treated the same.

by James McKenna Wed Feb 19, 2003 21:57

Some research scientists are just research scientists

Some Defence Attaches are just Defence Attaches.

Some are white Irish

Some are Israeli Jews

Why not call me anti-Irish when I picked on John, or were you too busy calling me anti-American or what is it now....anti-semitic? By the way I love Syrians(also Semites)

by Phuq Hedd Wed Feb 19, 2003 23:19

There's an interesting report from John McKenna about some Israelis who may be suspicious characters. John ties this in to other suspicious characters that we've all seen operating at Shannon.

This is part of the mechanism:

1.Government sells "Made in Europe" stickers to US or Israel or whoever and gets a few scabby jobs in return for undermining the EU economy.

2.Everyone gets worried about "job loss" if we take any sort of moral stand.

3.We end up with FOREIGN security forces spying on Irish activists.

John is doing some good reportage, drop the knee-jerk response to criticisms of Isrealis.

by Daithi Thu Feb 20, 2003 05:01

I am not calling anyone anti-semitic. We get enough of that on the site and I'll save that accusation for when it's actually true.

But the argument being made in the article is this:

(1) American agents are spying on Irish protests (True)

(2) Research scientists from Israel are working in Ireland (True)

(3) The U.S. and Israel are linked, financially and militarily (True)

(4) Therefore, the Israeli scientists are suspicious.

That's the problem. Flying leaps of logic that seem to come from nothing more than pure prejudice. It's irresponsible writing and scaremongering that would be worthy of any conservative CNN talking head.

by pat c Thu Feb 20, 2003 15:25

I dont agree with the targetting of civilians in Israel but I can understand the frustration of the Palestinians who give their lives carrying out suicide bombings.

Isrealis murder civilians all the time, but they are safe in their tanks & jets when they massacre the innocents.

by To Pat C Thu Feb 20, 2003 20:50

I dont agree with the targetting of civilians in Palestine but I can understand the frustration of the Israelis.

Palestinians murder civilians all the time, but they don't care because they kill themselves while doing it.

Pat C: grow up.

by To Pat C Thu Feb 20, 2003 20:54

"I dont agree with the targetting of civilians in Palestine but I can understand the frustration of the Israelis."

Palestinians murder civilians all the time, but they don't care because they kill themselves while doing it. Im fact these scumbags are treated like heros by the palestinians if they manage to murder Jews.

Palestinian terrorists *ARE* terrorists. But civilians (whether Palestinian or Israeli) *ARE* civilians. Do you support the murder of civilians? If so, you a re a warmongering hypocrite, and I hope you weren't within a million miles of the anti-war march last week.

So grow up Pat C, you're possibly deranged. Although for someone that once said that the IRA and FARC weren't terrorist organisations, this is not surprising.

by Avi Harari Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:12

Which Israelis do you mean? Over one million Arabs have Israeli passports and are also Israelis. Do you mean that they also are not welcome or is it just Jewish Israelis? Please clarify.

by Avi Harari Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:13

I am talking about James Mackenna's original comment.

by Avi Harari Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:16

I am talking about James Mackenna's original comment.

by pat c Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:34

"Palestinians murder civilians all the time, but they don't care because they kill themselves while doing it. Im fact these scumbags are treated like heros by the palestinians if they manage to murder Jews."

Palestinians strike back against the OCCUPIERS of their Land. Freedom Fighters are of course lauded as heros. I dont support the targetting of civilians but I am not surprised that some Palestinians will strike at Israelli Civilians after Palestinian Men , Women & Children have been massacred by the Israelis.

"Palestinian terrorists *ARE* terrorists."

Why dont you call members of the Israeli forcses terrorist?

"But civilians (whether Palestinian or Israeli) *ARE* civilians. Do you support the murder of civilians? If so, you a re a warmongering hypocrite, and I hope you weren't within a million miles of the anti-war march last week."

As I have made clear on numerous occasions I dont support the murder of Civilians, the Israeli STate does.

"So grow up Pat C, you're possibly deranged. "

So, I am mad because I disagree with you! Does that not remind you of the former USSR? Where so many dissidents from a jewish background ended up in psychiatric hospitals because they questioned the prevailing order?

"Although for someone that once said that the IRA and FARC weren't terrorist organisations, this is not surprising."

I have explained in depth my views on both the IRA & FARC on many occasions on indy. You might not like them but I really cant imagine what you hope to achieve by raising this issue time after time.

by Avi Harari Fri Feb 21, 2003 13:31

Palestinian land is not occupied as such. The territories involved are disputed. There never, ever was a Palestinian state there. Why do you adopt the Palestinian propaganda view? Have they taken you for a ride? The Israeli response to this dispute is to attempt repeatedly to negotiate an end to it. The general Palestinian response (because they are run by fascists) is to murder Israeli civilians, behaviour which Amnesty International itself has called war crimes. Israel does not deliberately target Palestinian civilians: it attempts always to strike at terrorists preparing further indiscriminate attacks against Israelis. Unfortunately, the nature of military force is that often civilians are killed by accident. This cannot be avoided. The military power of the Israel Defence Forces is such that if Israel had really wanted deliberately to target Palestinian civilians, there wouldn't be many of them left by now. I know this for a fact, believe me.

by pat c Fri Feb 21, 2003 14:06

"Palestinian land is not occupied as such. The territories involved are disputed. "

They are not disputed; they were occupied by Israel in 1967. This occupation is in direct breach of UN Resolutions.

"The Israeli response to this dispute is to attempt repeatedly to negotiate an end to it."

Not true, all that was on offer to the Palestinians was a fragmented Bantustan.

"The general Palestinian response (because they are run by fascists) is to murder Israeli civilians,"

How are their leaders Fascists/ Do you not think this term should apply to Israeli politicans & soldiers who carry out War Crimes?

"behaviour which Amnesty International itself has called war crimes. "

Amnesty has issued many more condemnations of Israel. I dont support the killing of civilians; you do.

"Israel does not deliberately target Palestinian civilians: it attempts always to strike at terrorists preparing further indiscriminate attacks against Israelis. Unfortunately, the nature of military force is that often civilians are killed by accident. "

Firing rockets into Apartment buildings? Bulldozing houses with people inside? Machine-gunning children? Who do you think you are fooling?

"This cannot be avoided. The military power of the Israel Defence Forces is such that if Israel had really wanted deliberately to target Palestinian civilians, there wouldn't be many of them left by now. I know this for a fact, believe me. "

Whats this? The threat of a Final Solution?

by Avi Harari Fri Feb 21, 2003 23:24

Let those who read this discussion make up their own minds on whose argument is more cogent.

by Avi Harari Fri Feb 21, 2003 23:25

Let those who read this discussion make up their own minds on whose argument is more cogent.