Meeting on Nationalism in Ireland TONIGHT

by € Thu Jan 23, 2003 13:17

did he not say the island of Ireland could not support more than 8 million people?
or was it less?

Tell me did the diasporia disappear?
did we leave and stop existing?
did we have to bear the Irish Question in our conversation a thousand times for FF/FG/SF/SDLP without being involved in Irish Nationality?

Did the Irish writers who shaped Irish culture throughout the 20th century do so exclusively within Ireland?

or is that something else?

Do you seriously think that Ireland is anything more than a rump?

Do you seriously think that the hundreds of thousands of Irish who have so far shown no serious wish to return to Ireland have any interest in the current debate between the old parties about Irish nationality?

How about Irish ethnicity?

How about Irish imperialism?

How about talking about those?

I request the right to vote in the country of my birth in the constituency of my birth in general and european elections.

Can you go on denying me that right?

by pat c Thu Jan 23, 2003 13:40

Right on!

Lets not forget black racism and gay prejudice while you're at it.

by Trotwatch Thu Jan 23, 2003 13:44

Uh - 0h. You have a Fianna Fail speaker at your meeting. Dont you realise what this means? UCD SY will be along to break up your meeting.

by Nicholas - CPA Thu Jan 23, 2003 17:07

What would you call the fact that 40%-50% of the chocolate consumed in this country is produced by slavery? (and by slavery I mean that those working have no legal choice to leave their employment, not simply that they have no practical choice)

That we belong to the 20% of the world that control 80% of its resources?

That we are responsible for huge amounts of consumption of products produced in sweatshops/plantations etc.?

That our culture has been shipped off in cheap easy-to-sell versions and thrust on unfortunates all around the world by missionaries, Guinness, Irish pubs, Hollywood etc.?

That our citizens were the bulk of the army that fueled the biggest colonial power in the world for much of the nineteenth centuries?

That we ship back any unfortunates we have been oppressing who dare to think that they can stand on our soil?

Personally I think it is quite appropriate to call it imperialism, but maybe you disagree?

As for gay prejudice, I know some gay people who are horrified by bisexuality ("how dare they sell out!")

And black supremecism does exist too, apparently, although I have not met any of them.

by pat c Thu Jan 23, 2003 18:12

"What would you call the fact that 40%-50% of the chocolate consumed in this country is produced by slavery? (and by slavery I mean that those working have no legal choice to leave their employment, not simply that they have no practical choice)"

the fact that you concentrate on choclate shows how barking you are. some of us buy fairtrade in any case.

have a sense of proportion.

"That we belong to the 20% of the world that control 80% of its resources?"

what is your point? that ordinary people are responsible for this?

you are letting the US etc off the hook.

"That we are responsible for huge amounts of consumption of products produced in sweatshops/plantations etc.?"

there are those of us who campaign for rights & trade union organisation for these exploited workers. are you suggesting that all trade with developing countries should be halted?

what is your point?

"That our culture has been shipped off in cheap easy-to-sell versions and thrust on unfortunates all around the world by missionaries, Guinness, Irish pubs, Hollywood etc.?"

whats wrong with guinness? who on indymedia is thrusting irish pubs on people? ditto for hollywood.

how are we responsible for the missionary activities of the multinational roman catholic church?

"That our citizens were the bulk of the army that fueled the biggest colonial power in the world for much of the nineteenth centuries?"

yippeee! thats right! the irish were the real oppressors! it wasnt the british empire, it was really the irish empire!

you are blaming a subject people for the crimes of british imperialism.

"That we ship back any unfortunates we have been oppressing who dare to think that they can stand on our soil?"

again there are those of us who are fighting against this.

every country in the world has immigration laws. by your logic every country is therefore imperialist.

you are again,effectively letting the real imperialists off the hook.

"Personally I think it is quite appropriate to call it imperialism, but maybe you disagree?"

see above.

"As for gay prejudice, I know some gay people who are horrified by bisexuality ("how dare they sell out!")"

and that makes those gays just as bad as the patriarchial society which produces gay bashing & discrimination?

are those gays out to deprive bis of their jobs, partner rights etc?

"And black supremecism does exist too, apparently, although I have not met any of them."

there are some around but it should hardly be surprising given the genocide blacks have suffered.

again you have no sense of proportion.

by Harry Lime - Individual Thu Jan 23, 2003 18:45

Are those the policies of the CPA? If not then Nicholas should not use CPA if hes just expressing his own opinion.

by Nicholas - Individual Thu Jan 23, 2003 19:04

The CPA is an alliance of different political groups and individuals. There are very few opinions that the CPA does actually hold - only those agreed by consensus at meetings, which are generally more worried about practicalities.

I merely use CPA to identify myself. Maybe that's wrong. Sorry.

And yes, there are great people doing great things in Ireland against imperialism and other forms of exploitation. And ordinary people don't benefit in any real sense. This is the same as in the UK and the US and other countries that I think many would describe as imperialist.

by pat c Fri Jan 24, 2003 11:38

i fully accept that many people in england, scotland, wales,(please dont use UK) US (not forgetting occupied territories such as: Puerto Rico,Samoa, Guam etc) are also opposed to imperialism.

i dont think however subject nations should be blamed for the past crimes of british imperialism.
the majority of british soldiers in africa were natives, the same was true of india, malaya etc.
that doesnt mean that these peoples were equal partners in imperialism anymore than the irish were.

all of these soldiers were paid a pittance and superprofits extracted from the colonies were repatriated to london. it is worth noting that ireland also carried a disproportionate imperial tax burden.